Should we not request the White Poppy be used in our World War Memorials?

alan85

http://www.whitepoppy.org.uk/

I've always gotten irritated by the British Legion's Red Poppy as it's so descriminate in who it remembers. It makes no effort to bear in mind those innocents that are killed in British wars nor does it have in mind the needless torture that war brings and that we should always aim for peace.

As a neutral country I think it appropriate to those that we remember in such memorials and to the ideals of our Republic that we bear in mind neutrality and peace. What better way than to use the White Poppy. I like the idea that innocents and indeed men of the other side are remembered too.

afatbollix

But WW1 the Irish fought for the British.

The movement behind the red poppy also gave money to Irish men who fought in WW1. Its not just for the UK.

alan85

But WW1 the Irish fought for the British.

I realise that. But nevertheless it makes no gesture of remembrance for innocents nor men of the other side which for 1916 is quite poignant. With 1916 centenary coming close is it going to be a case of two memorials being very divided in a way; those who fought for freedom and those who wore the British uniform? For a lot of them they were on the one side really. I just think it would tie together everything nicely if we used one symbol that remembered everyone (but obviously have separate memorial sites).

Morpheus

alan85 wrote: »

http://www.whitepoppy.org.uk/
As a neutral country I think it appropriate to those that we remember in such memorials and to the ideals of our Republic that we bear in mind neutrality and peace. What better way than to use the White Poppy. I like the idea that innocents and indeed men of the other side are remembered too.

Read your constitution please.
WE ARE NOT A NEUTRAL STATE
we never have been and hopefully never will be, we cant fiscally afford the defence forces we would need to maintain in order to BE a neutral state.

we have a defence / foreign policy of non involvement on a case by case basis regulated under the triple lock mechanism.

our constitution does not mention we are neutral, indeed i believe that word doesnt even come up in the text.

now to your poppy.

My great grand uncles fought (and died) in WW1

as did about 51,000 other Irish men,

thats DEAD

not just those that fought, thats JUST the dead Irish in ONE war.

my grand uncle fought (and was badly injured) in WW2

Keep the red poppy.

it remembers those who fought in the British forces, both my relations did, i proudly wear one to remember what they gave so that we could remain free, especially in WW2.

Many irish would go to war in ww1 and if they died they became heroes, but due to the stuff going on at home, if they survived they returned labeled as cowards. They were all heroes in my eyes.

alan85

Morphéus wrote: »

Read your constitution please.
WE ARE NOT A NEUTRAL STATE
we never have been and hopefully never will be, we cant fiscally afford the defence forces we would need to maintain in order to BE a neutral state.

we have a defence / foreign policy of non involvement on a case by case basis regulated under the triple lock mechanism.

our constitution does not mention we are neutral, indeed i believe that word doesnt even come up in the text.

now to your poppy.

My great grand uncles fought (and died) in WW1

as did about 51,000 other Irish men,

thats DEAD

not just those that fought, thats JUST the dead Irish in ONE war.

my grand uncle fought (and was badly injured) in WW2

Keep the red poppy.

it remembers those who fought in the British forces, both my relations did, i proudly wear one to remember what they gave so that we could remain free, especially in WW2.

Many irish would go to war in ww1 and if they died they became heroes, but due to the stuff going on at home, if they survived they returned labeled as cowards. They were all heroes in my eyes.

My grandmother was involved in WW2 too in Holyhead as a 'Land Lady' I think they were called. This isn't a who's who. I'm wondering would it be more civil to remember all that died in a shared context rather than in a divided context as I feel it is... And also, remember the innocent and men of the other side. I think that would be a very mature thing.

gigino

There is nothing to stop anyone remember who they like. 200,000 people from Ireland fought with the British in both world wars and I salute them / respect them 100%, and am grateful that at least someone helped defeat Nazism etc etc. ...so that a generation or two down the line people can choose to honour them or not. They gave their lives so you ( the original poster ) could have that luxury.

Morpheus

the british legions red poppy was designed to remember the members of the british armed forces that died, its a military memorial, its not designed to remember the innocents nor the enemy combatants (as those "other" men were then).

if you want to have a second generalised memorial then by all means do, just don't get irritated when a military organisation chooses to remember its fallen only. i dont believe that they should "replace" the british war dead military memorial with an all encompassing remember everyone memorial.

roadmaster

The islandbridge memorial does it remember all the irish men that have fallen fighting for The US,French and other armys around the world?

Morpheus

It was created as a world war 1 memorial to the roughly 50,000 irish souls who died fighting for the commonwealth and united kingdom of which we were then part.

neilled

roadmaster wrote: »

The islandbridge memorial does it remember all the irish men that have fallen fighting for The US,French and other armys around the world?

No, but we have the national day of commemoration held at royal hospital kilmainham every year for that. Its broadcast live on rte.

Bannasidhe

My maternal great grand uncle died at Etaples in 1915 aged 23 having fought in the Irish Guards [His name appears on the memorial on the South Mall]. My maternal great grand father, a medic, never recovered from shell shock or the horror of seeing his young brother-in-law linger for months with a head wound that left him paralysed-he too was in the Irish Guards.

While they fought in Flanders for Home Rule and the Freedom of Small Nations, my 15 year old grand uncle was languishing in Cork gaol for sedition (he was innocent of the charge) - the experience turned him into a life long republican and he fought in the War of Independence. Later in the Civil War, where he fought on the anti-Treaty side, the order was given to assassinate him. Collins signed the warrant. The sniper given the task was my paternal grand-father. At my parent's wedding in the mid 50s the two met for the first time - my grandfather recognised the only target he had failed to hit by a groove left in my grand uncles ear by the bullet -he had been standing outside Cash's and was bending over to pick up a shilling he just dropped. My grandfather bought him a drink.

The family home was repeatedly searched/trashed by the Tans. This finally ended when during one such 'search', a regular army officer discovered my great grand father's WWI campaign medals.

One of his other sons was a medic in the RAF in WWII and participated in the bloody battle for Italy. My grandmother - despite being a staunch republican and mother of 5 - would save her egg ration to bake cakes for her 'baby' bother. At her funeral he told a very moving story of sitting, terrified, in a bomber when a parcel arrived containing a cherry cake from his big sister. The other occupant of the bay, a bombardier, commented on the fact that the parcel came from Cork.Turned out he was from Clonakilty - they shared the cake.The Clon man burned to death over Germany less than a month later.

I proudly wear a white poppy on Nov 11 to remember them all and the sacrifices they made.

HellsAngel

Morphéus wrote: »

Read your constitution please.
WE ARE NOT A NEUTRAL STATE
we never have been and hopefully never will be, we cant fiscally afford the defence forces we would need to maintain in order to BE a neutral state.

we have a defence / foreign policy of non involvement on a case by case basis regulated under the triple lock mechanism.

Didn't know Ireland is part of NATO, took part in WW2, the Gulf War etc ??

It wasn't me!

HellsAngel wrote: »

Didn't know Ireland is part of NATO, took part in WW2, the Gulf War etc ??

So because it's not a member of NATO and didn't actively take part in two wars you happen to mention, we're neutral now? I feel there should have been a memo...

Capt'n Midnight

Red poppy started out in France.

Morpheus

HellsAngel wrote: »

Didn't know Ireland is part of NATO, took part in WW2, the Gulf War etc ??

That's a very uninformed statement.... I'm actually shocked that someone would write something like that!

Surely you aren't referring to Irelands involvement in Afghanistan as one of the NON NATO Euro-Atlantic Partnership Council (EAPC) nations?

krissovo

Not many white poppy's in the fields in Flanders and plenty of Irish blood spilled on those fields. Let the red poppy symbolize what it has since World War 1 and since Irish blood is still being spilled around world even if they serve other Armies.



Place your white poppy in recognition by all means but please dont insult all those who have made these sacrifices.

Bannasidhe

krissovo wrote: »

Not many white poppy's in the fields in Flanders and plenty of Irish blood spilled on those fields. Let the red poppy symbolize what it has since World War 1 and since Irish blood is still being spilled around world even if they serve other Armies.



Place your white poppy in recognition by all means but please dont insult all those who have made these sacrifices.

How is wearing a White Poppy an insult to all those who made sacrifices? The whole point of it is to recognise non-Military as well.

drumaneen

afatbollix wrote: »

But WW1 the Irish fought for the British.

The movement behind the red poppy also gave money to Irish men who fought in WW1. Its not just for the UK.

During The Great War the Irish WERE British, just as people up north are today.
And technically we were during the whole of the Free State period - anyone born here before 1949 is entitled to apply for a British Passport.

drumaneen

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Red poppy started out in France.

Not quite true - it's not even British really ... Inspired by a Canadian Medic, developed by a US woman .. Adopted by the USA as national emblem - the British took it up later.

Recommend this excellent article on the subject - an "all you need know".
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1081635/The-buttonhole-battalion-Remembrance-Days-unsung-heroes-producing-38-million-poppies-raising-30m.html

For anyone interested joining or helping with the work of the Royal British Legion in the Republic of Ireland try these links http://republic-of-ireland.britishlegion.org.uk/
http://www.facebook.com/LimerickRBL

Capt'n Midnight

drumaneen wrote: »

Not quite true - it's not even British really ...

Ta, yes that was the point I was trying to make.

BTW Bitish Racing Green, is actually Emerald green as it was adopted after Ireland hosted the Gordon Bennet races back in the day.

HellsAngel

Morphéus wrote: »

That's a very uninformed statement.... I'm actually shocked that someone would write something like that!

Surely you aren't referring to Irelands involvement in Afghanistan as one of the NON NATO Euro-Atlantic Partnership Council (EAPC) nations?

Their not combatants. Half a dozen just doing observation and office work for the UN.

Morpheus

HellsAngel wrote: »

Their not combatants. Half a dozen just doing observation and office work for the UN.

not quite right... not that they are combatants... but then again, you are only a non combatant until someone shoots at you and you fire back.

for instance, they ARE armed, I've seen photos of them carrying weapons, flakkers and helmets on a street that had just been the site of a bomb attack where some UN/NATO members were killed.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/defence-forces-to-train-us-and-uk-bomb-teams-2586389.html

Batsy

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Red poppy started out in France.

The Remembrance poppy was actually an American idea. Now, though, Remembrance poppies are worn mainly in the Commonwealth nations, not just Britain.

The use of the poppy was inspired by the World War I poem In Flanders Fields. Its opening lines refer to the many poppies that were the first flowers to grow in the churned-up earth of soldiers' graves in Flanders. Canadian physician and Lieutenant Colonel John McCrae is popularly believed to have written it on 3 May 1915 after witnessing the death of his friend (a fellow soldier) the day before. The poem was first published on 8 December 1915 in the London-based magazine Punch.
In 1918, American YWCA worker Moina Michael, inspired by the poem, published a poem of her own called We Shall Keep the Faith. In tribute to McCrae's poem, she vowed to always wear a red poppy as a symbol of remembrance for those who served in the war. At a November 1918 YWCA Overseas War Secretaries' conference, she appeared with a silk poppy pinned to her coat and distributed 25 more to those attending. She then campaigned to have the poppy adopted as a national symbol of remembrance. At a conference in 1920, the National American Legion adopted it as their official symbol of remembrance. At this conference, Frenchwoman Anna E. Guérin was inspired to introduce the artificial poppies commonly used today. In 1921 she sent her poppy sellers to London, where they were adopted by Field Marshal Douglas Haig, a founder of the Royal British Legion. It was also adopted by veterans' groups in Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

wikipedia.org

Manic Moran

not quite right... not that they are combatants... but then again, you are only a non combatant until someone shoots at you and you fire back

Uniformed non-combatants are pretty well defined as clergy, doctors, those attempting to surrender, and those who are hors-de-combat.
I don't believe any of the Irish personnel present qualify.

How is wearing a White Poppy an insult to all those who made sacrifices? The whole point of it is to recognise non-Military as well

That would be the whole point of a white poppy, not the red poppy, though. It's an entirely different commemoration. Nothing wrong with wearing the one, the other, or both, in that case, no need to prohibit the one or the other.

NTM

Morpheus

exactly manic, theyre toting steyrs ... not very non combatant?! who gives a fcuk anyway, they were asked to go out there by the military as a result of a request from SOMEONE and they did. it shouldnt be a big deal in this day and age.