Sinn Fein absence from royal events (mod warning: stay on topic!)

PatsytheNazi

Edward Carson wrote: »

It certainly is time for truth for innocent victims on all sides of the conflict. I can only imagine Sinn Fein will cooperate fully with any future investigations into the murder of innocent people by the IRA (if only in the interests of truth).

SF wanted a post apartheid style Truth Commission i.e. those who had carried out violence would be granted immunity if they came foward and spoke out at it. The Brits and the unionists were against it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_and_Reconciliation_Commission_(South_Africa)

Icepick

I'ts their last red herring so they cannot let go.

Liam Byrne

Happyman42 wrote: »

I would really love to see a copy of this poll that everyone is quoting. Can you link me to it? Was it carried out by an independent polling company, a newspaper or a website? Or was there a referendum while I was in the little boys room?

I find it amazing that your Sixth Sense missed this......and while you were taking the piss, too ?

Y'see, some of us don't have the ability to survey dead people, so we ask live people their opinions.

And as I said before, you're quite happy to spout rubbish about fictional inferiority complexes while challenging even anecdotal evidence.....:rolleyes:

Happyman42 wrote: »

Sure, give a source for that ^ ^ too while you're at it? Or is that another urban myth like .....'that fella over there is homeless.... he must have fleas and be mentally deficient'?

Considering you participated in the thread in which it was mentioned, I'm surprised that you don't remember it; as I said, it's a quotation from here on boards from the other day.....I can't comment on the truth or otherwise of it, but then my powers are obviously a lot less than those who can talk to the dead and then speak for them.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72270595&postcount=1399

By the way, please refrain from selectively quoting and changing the meaning of the post to make it look like it was I claimed it. The quote was :

Liam Byrne wrote:

despite (as reported here on boards) handing out free cigarettes to coax the usual suspects into swelling their numbers.

The bottom line - as clearly pointed out to you the other day - is that many, many people disagree with your view but you just don't seem to want to face facts, and pretending that those who disagree have inferiority complexes while claiming that you know what the dead would accept as an apology just shows that your argument is completely baseless.

Liam Byrne

celtictiger32 wrote: »

ah sure isnt that great it doesnt matter that they got us into a mess of a state but once 80% (and dont kid yourself, seriously) are happy to spend even more unneccesary money to bring the english queen over ah we'll be grand if fg dont get us out of it we'll go back to ff and have a tennis match between them for government until one of them do. that is today

Yeah, massive security cost to this alright......remind us why that is again ?

And, of course, the money spent rebuilding places like Omagh and providing additional backup for Gardai trying to avoid a repeat of Adare wasn't unnecessarily spent at all ?

Happyman42

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I find it amazing that your Sixth Sense missed this......and while you were taking the piss, too ?

Y'see, some of us don't have the ability to survey dead people, so we ask live people their opinions.

And as I said before, you're quite happy to spout rubbish about fictional inferiority complexes while challenging even anecdotal evidence.....:rolleyes:

So you don't have a source either? :rolleyes:

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Considering you participated in the thread in which it was mentioned, I'm surprised that you don't remember it; as I said, it's a quotation from here on boards from the other day.....I can't comment on the truth or otherwise of it, but then my powers are obviously a lot less than those who can talk to the dead and then speak for them.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72270595&postcount=1399

So another spurious post that got the poster banned. Good work!

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The bottom line - as clearly pointed out to you the other day - is that many, many people disagree with your view but you just don't seem to want to face facts, .

Yes, but I can handle the fact that people disagree with me, it was the same when we marched for the truth about Bloody Sunday, the majority refused to believe what we knew perfectly well where the 'facts'...but eventually the truth came out about that and the 'proper' unequivocal apologies where made.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

and pretending that those who disagree have inferiority complexes while claiming that you know what the dead would accept as an apology just shows that your argument is completely baseless.

But I wasn't pretending. There are loads of human examples displaying rampant inferiority since the start of the visit.The absolute blanket protection of this Head of State by our Media, Posters on Forums and the State. Heaven forbid that she would see a protest.
Why shouldn't she be aware of the fact that people disagree and object? And don't pretend that it is because of security.
Plenty of events have been secured by search and confiscate methods, it would have been no problem to do it here.
But no, we had to be draconian because of our inability to be ourselves. Inferiority!
It's why Gaybo, Tubridy, etc will always ask the question......'so, what do you think of Ireland?'..........puke!
Ireland has always had plenty who pretend to be something they are not, we have been pretending for 3 days now on a national scale.

Liam Byrne

Happyman42 wrote: »

So you don't have a source either? :rolleyes:

Well y'see, I'd take it from the democratic vote for the GFA that Ireland has matured enough to accept a visit from a neighbouring dignitary.

Maybe you disagree with that.

Happyman42 wrote: »

So another spurious post that got the poster banned. Good work!

"another" ? Where was the first one ? Although don't bother correcting yourself - maybe it was posted yesterday by Pearse & Connolly while you were channelling them ?

I don't know whether you're deliberately being mischevious, but your complete and utter lack of acceptance of even anecdotal experience while you proceed to make ridiculous claims about how people in the Garden of Rememberance would feel about an apology is downright laughable.

Happyman42 wrote: »

Yes, but I can handle the fact that people disagree with me, it was the same when we marched for the truth about Bloody Sunday, the majority refused to believe what we knew perfectly well where the 'facts'...but eventually the truth came out about that and the 'proper' unequivocal apologies where made.

That's completely different, and you know it. In that case there were "facts" to be revealed, whereas your "inferiority" slights are just pathetic attempts to discredit opposing views. You don't accept opposing views, you try (and fail) to demean them by pretending you know what dead people's views would be and pretending that those with different views to you have psychological problems.

But I wasn't pretending. There are loads of human examples displaying rampant inferiority since the start of the visit.The absolute blanket protection of this Head of State by our Media, Posters on Forums and the State. Heaven forbid that she would see a protest.

I can state for a fact that I have no inferiority complex.

I can also see that because psycho thugs threatened to bomb and maim Irish citizens there was no choice but to prevent people from getting close.

You, on the other hand, twist the facts to suit your existing biased view. You're entitled to, of course, but that doesn't make it true. It's merely an opinon, and others can see that these are not "loads of human examples" of what you are talking about.

So pretend away - I've had enough of the game; you might be right about some minority of people, but you're wrong in general terms, and you can't accept that.

So I'm invoking the "ignore" button. Good luck with your agenda and delusion. And tell Pearse & Connolly that I said hi, and that things have progressed nicely.

Happyman42

:D

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Well y'see, I'd take it from the democratic vote for the GFA that Ireland has matured enough to accept a visit from a neighbouring dignitary.

Maybe you disagree with that.

Yes I disagree, I voted in favour of the GFA
I have said before that I have no problem with any visit, when it is on a proper and respecting footing. This visit, as we all know, is premature because of unfinished business with the government she is representing.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

"another" ? Where was the first one ? Although don't bother correcting yourself - maybe it was posted yesterday by Pearse & Connolly while you were channelling them ?

The elusive poll showing 80% infavour that you, Sky, BBC and loads of posters on here refer to. It remains spurious until it is presented.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I don't know whether you're deliberately being mischevious, but your complete and utter lack of acceptance of even anecdotal experience while you proceed to make ridiculous claims about how people in the Garden of Rememberance would feel about an apology is downright laughable.

Let no man write my epitaph; for as no man who knows my motives dare now vindicate them, let not prejudice or ignorance, asperse them. Let them and me rest in obscurity and peace, and my tomb remain uninscribed, and my memory in oblivion, until other times and other men can do justice to my character. When my country takes her place among the nations of the earth, then and not till then, let my epitaph be written. I have done.

Tell me this Liam...has the 'Country' that Robert Emmet was referring to 'taken her place among the nations of the earth'?
No it hasn't, because he was referring to a United Ireland.
Those of us in favour of the GFA agreement have agreed to set aside the gun and to wait until a majority wish it.
But nowhere in the GFA was I, you or anybody else asked to absolve the oppressors from blame.
Robert Emmet knew very well who was to blame, and he rose in rebellion against them in 1798.
It was an insult to his memory to have Elizabeth Windsor in those gardens in her official capacity of Queen when she hadn't addressed her country's role in the demise of most of those commemorated there.
Bring her to the National Stud or the Zoo... anywhere but there.
Her presence was hollow and the sentiments false.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

That's completely different, and you know it. In that case there were "facts" to be revealed, whereas your "inferiority" slights are just pathetic attempts to discredit opposing views. You don't accept opposing views, you try (and fail) to demean them by pretending you know what dead people's views would be and pretending that those with different views to you have psychological problems.

What did the Barron Report request that they hand over if not facts?

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I can also see that because psycho thugs threatened to bomb and maim Irish citizens there was no choice but to prevent people from getting close.

You, on the other hand, twist the facts to suit your existing biased view. You're entitled to, of course, but that doesn't make it true. It's merely an opinon, and others can see that these are not "loads of human examples" of what you are talking about.

So pretend away - I've had enough of the game; you might be right about some minority of people, but you're wrong in general terms, and you can't accept that.

So I'm invoking the "ignore" button. Good luck with your agenda and delusion. And tell Pearse & Connolly that I said hi, and that things have progressed nicely.

Twisting facts? But I'm not the one quoting elusive polls and dodgy unsubstantiated hearsay, am I?

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I can state for a fact that I have no inferiority complex.

How we gonna help you if you ignore us Liam??

Liam Byrne

I just KNEW I'd regret giving common sense one last shot!

Happyman42 wrote: »

What did the Barron Report request that they hand over if not facts?

Oh my good Jesus Christ! Would you care to actually READ what I said before spouting even more rubbish ?

Happyman42 wrote: »

Twisting facts? But I'm not the one quoting elusive polls and dodgy unsubstantiated hearsay, am I?

No, you're just spouting rubbish that anyone who disagrees with you suffers from an inferiority complex :rolleyes:

Happyman42 wrote: »

How we gonna help you if you ignore us Liam??

I don't need help from people who can't face facts and are incapable of having an open discussion without insulting those who disagree with them.

But I can help myself by sticking to my guns this time around! Have a nice life, and hope reality doesn't hurt too much when the fog clears!

Nodin

...whats any of this got to do with SF absence from 'royal events'...?

Happyman42

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I just KNEW I'd regret giving common sense one last shot!



Oh my good Jesus Christ! Would you care to actually READ what I said before spouting even more rubbish ?



No, you're just spouting rubbish that anyone who disagrees with you suffers from an inferiority complex :rolleyes:

Yes, I did read what you said. Below is what we actually said.
Other than your use of the word 'facts' how did your little rant reference what I 'actually' said?


Originally Posted by Happyman42
Yes, but I can handle the fact that people disagree with me, it was the same when we marched for the truth about Bloody Sunday, the majority refused to believe what we knew perfectly well where the 'facts'...but eventually the truth came out about that and the 'proper' unequivocal apologies where made.

to which to you answered:

That's completely different, and you know it. In that case there were "facts" to be revealed, whereas your "inferiority" slights are just pathetic attempts to discredit opposing views. You don't accept opposing views, you try (and fail) to demean them by pretending you know what dead people's views would be and pretending that those with different views to you have psychological problems.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I don't need help from people who can't face facts and are incapable of having an open discussion without insulting those who disagree with them.

But I can help myself by sticking to my guns this time around! Have a nice life, and hope reality doesn't hurt too much when the fog clears!

But you haven't addressed anything I have actually said about that 'Inferiority complex'. It's a fascinating subject, we constantly have to be re-assured about ourselves. We don't even have the confidence to name a newspaper without the moniker 'The Irish' Press, Independent, Times etc etc and that was before there where English ones available here. What is that about if not 'living in the shadow'?

irishh_bob

perhaps the leadership of sinn fein were afraid of the reaction they would get from thier base had they welcomed or even met the queen of england , sinn feins base in northern ireland and the border parts of the republic view adams and mc guinness as having moved a very long way already , things are different for sinn fein than they are for other partys in this regard and a descision by the leadership to meet the monarch could very well see them loose support to disident republicans who seem to be gaining some ground , i dont vote sinn fein and have no time for thier left wing economic policy but i can see thier predicament on an issue like the queens visit , i think they shouldnt have bothered with any silly stunts like releasing baloons though , that certainly didnt work and o snodaigh is a useless media performer anyway

Happyman42

irishh_bob wrote: »

perhaps the leadership of sinn fein were afraid of the reaction they would get from thier base had they welcomed or even met the queen of england , sinn feins base in northern ireland and the border parts of the republic view adams and mc guinness as having moved a very long way already , things are different for sinn fein than they are for other partys in this regard and a descision by the leadership to meet the monarch could very well see them loose support to disident republicans who seem to be gaining some ground , i dont vote sinn fein and have no time for thier left wing economic policy but i can see thier predicament on an issue like the queens visit , i think they shouldnt have bothered with any silly stunts like releasing baloons though , that certainly didnt work and o snodaigh is a useless media performer anyway

I am not a Sinn Fein supporter either but I think your analysis of their predicament is fair.
This was an event organised for a very exclusive set. Sinn Fein, the victims of the troubles 'still being troublesome' where emphatically, not welcome.

Liam Byrne

irishh_bob wrote: »

perhaps the leadership of sinn fein were afraid of the reaction they would get from thier base had they welcomed or even met the queen of england , sinn feins base in northern ireland and the border parts of the republic view adams and mc guinness as having moved a very long way already , things are different for sinn fein than they are for other partys in this regard and a descision by the leadership to meet the monarch could very well see them loose support to disident republicans who seem to be gaining some ground , i dont vote sinn fein and have no time for thier left wing economic policy but i can see thier predicament on an issue like the queens visit , i think they shouldnt have bothered with any silly stunts like releasing baloons though , that certainly didnt work and o snodaigh is a useless media performer anyway

It's fair comment, I guess, but the fact is that Sinn Fein already get too many concessions and make too many excuses to be acceptable to most people.

So they're unlikely to gain respect unless they lose that approach.

Is that why they need to humour the potential dissidents? Maybe. But it takes them further away from being a reasonable political force in this country.

The question is whether they accept that.....maybe they do, and maybe they're happy with that, because it means that their ecomonic policies will never me tested.

irishh_bob

Happyman42 wrote: »

I am not a Sinn Fein supporter either but I think your analysis of their predicament is fair.
This was an event organised for a very exclusive set. Sinn Fein, the victims of the troubles 'still being troublesome' where emphatically, not welcome.

sinn fein were among others like the british goverment , ian paisley and various other terrorist groups , a cause of the troubles , they were not on the victims side

irishh_bob

Liam Byrne wrote: »

It's fair comment, I guess, but the fact is that Sinn Fein already get too many concessions and make too many excuses to be acceptable to most people.

So they're unlikely to gain respect unless they lose that approach.

Is that why they need to humour the potential dissidents? Maybe. But it takes them further away from being a reasonable political force in this country.

The question is whether they accept that.....maybe they do, and maybe they're happy with that, because it means that their ecomonic policies will never me tested.

sinn feins top brass ( to use a cliche at this stage ) missed out on a mandela moment , they clearly lacked the courage , then again , peter robinson lacked the courage to meet the pope last year who although obviously not the queens equivelent , would possibley generate comparable feeling among northern unionists , i think sinn fein should have just stayed home altogether rather than engage like they did in absurd half hearted stunts

Happyman42

irishh_bob wrote: »

sinn fein were among others like the british goverment , ian paisley and various other terrorist groups , a cause of the troubles , they were not on the victims side

Sincerest apologies...I never meant to infer that. I meant to say.....'Sinn Fein 'and' the victims of the troubles where emphatically not invited.

irishh_bob

Happyman42 wrote: »

Sincerest apologies...I never meant to infer that. I meant to say.....'Sinn Fein 'and' the victims of the troubles where emphatically not invited.

i thought sinn fein turned down an invitation , surely all political parties would have been invited , not to mention the parties in northern ireland which were invited

Happyman42

irishh_bob wrote: »

i thought sinn fein turned down an invitation , surely all political parties would have been invited , not to mention the parties in northern ireland which were invited

No evidence that all parties and TD's were invited, that I can find anyway, was Mick Wallace invited? Ming?
There certainly seemed to be a very 'select' few at the dinner last night. I counted one newspaper editor (outgoing I think) Geraldine Kennedy.
I am sure Gerry was invited but my point was about members of Sinn Fein in general.
Has anyone access to the full invitee list? I would think not, although it would be very revealing. I don't subscribe fully to what this writer has to say, but he makes a bit of sense and the more I see, the more I think he might be on to something.

http://www.irishleftreview.org/2011/05/19/queen-revelation/

Edward Carson

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

SF wanted a post apartheid style Truth Commission i.e. those who had carried out violence would be granted immunity if they came foward and spoke out at it. The Brits and the unionists were against it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_and_Reconciliation_Commission_(South_Africa)

Have you ever considered why they would be against it?

The essential point is that Sinn Fein would like the government to disclose information which, apart from establishing the extent of possible collusion, could ultimately reveal the identity of those involved in the atrocities carried out in Dublin and Monaghan.

Sinn Fein are in a position to contribute to the search for justice on the side of victims of IRA atrocities. Do you think they would reveal the identities of terrorists if requested to do so by the victims' families?

Sinn Fein are in no position to occupy the moral high ground regarding the murder of innocent people. Their attempts to do so are sickening.

decies

Sinn fein signed their politics away for the queens sterling now they just look like political dinosaurs unfortunately the politics in the south is about 20 years head in thinking compared with the politics with the north . They have very little to offer to the 26 counties except usual dail ramblings that offer very little. God save the queen and let our small island go forward independently and with it's head proudly high knowing that we as a nation can move on and leave the wrongs of the past confined to the historians to mull over.

kelko1916

decies wrote: »

Sinn fein signed their politics away for the queens sterling now they just look like political dinosaurs unfortunately the politics in the south is about 20 years head in thinking compared with the politics with the north . They have very little to offer to the 26 counties except usual dail ramblings that offer very little. God save the queen and let our small island go forward independently and with it's head proudly high knowing that we as a nation can move on and leave the wrongs of the past confined to the historians to mull over.

politics in the south is about 20 years a?head

that must be the reason that you have imf/emu in town and are depending on the '' kindness of strangers '' i suppose .

kelko1916

Liam Byrne wrote: »

It is wonderfula massive sacrifice that the people in the republic let people out of jail ,most of who were jailed for fightingmurdering innocent people and causing criminal damage



If the neighbour is a violent thug who murders kids and other innocents, he's not getting my assistance!

so when your neighbour is denied his basic human rights like a vote , or housing , or schooling, because he is a nationalist irishman like you might claim to be , thats not a problem ?. did you do anything to help him /her ?, what exactly did the republic do for nationalists in northern ireland from 1922 -1969 , thats right nothing ,and that failure is what brought about the troubles in northern ireland in the first place , but of course thats no concern to you .
as a country and a people that should be a source of great shame to citzens of republic of ireland
perhaps its a karma from this that you are now bankrupt and depending on the kindness of other countrys .

Liam Byrne

kelko1916 wrote: »

so when your neighbour is denied his basic human rights like a vote , or housing , or schooling, because he is a nationalist irishman like you might claim to be , thats not a problem ?. did you do anything to help him /her ?, what exactly did the republic do for nationalists in northern ireland from 1922 -1969 , thats right nothing ,and that failure is what brought about the troubles in northern ireland in the first place , but of course thats no concern to you .
as a country and a people that should be a source of great shame to citzens of republic of ireland
perhaps its a karma from this that you are now bankrupt and depending on the kindness of other countrys .

Er......thanks for that, but I have no idea what the general population of Northern Ireland has to do with the topic.

I do know that as soon as a group finds it acceptable to target innocents then I believe karma should indeed intervene and ensure that their aims are subverted.

The difference is the usual "republican" double-standards which excuse IRA murders as being accidents or whatever while screaming about similar stuff the "other side" did.

If they lost that hypocrisy I might actually start thinking they were worth having around.

largepants

kelko1916 wrote: »

so when your neighbour is denied his basic human rights like a vote , or housing , or schooling, because he is a nationalist irishman like you might claim to be , thats not a problem ?. did you do anything to help him /her ?, what exactly did the republic do for nationalists in northern ireland from 1922 -1969 , thats right nothing ,and that failure is what brought about the troubles in northern ireland in the first place , but of course thats no concern to you .
as a country and a people that should be a source of great shame to citzens of republic of ireland
perhaps its a karma from this that you are now bankrupt and depending on the kindness of other countrys .

I'm ashamed to say that as a resident of the Rupublic you would be right in assuming that we did nothing.And unfortunately any support you may have looks like being further diluted going by some of the comments in this thread. The same people pontificating about SF moving on are probably the same people who wouldn't vote SF because of their associations with the paramilitaries in the past.

Donal Og O Baelach

I'm not too sure the Queen would have accepted a handshake from McGuiness or Adams. On a personal level, they were quite likely involved in the muder of her close relative. She might have shook the hand, but Philip could end up rolling around on the floor holding Gerry Adams in a headlock.

Happyman42

kelko1916 wrote: »

as a country and a people that should be a source of great shame to citzens of republic of ireland

Your point is definitely on topic. Sinn Fein has traditionally represented those who hold the view above.
I am a southerner and while I disagree that everybody in the South turned their backs, I agree, that successive governments either dithered, ignored or actively colluded in the suppression of the republican voice North and South.
To actually collude in the banning of representatives (Section 31) from the airways (and effectively silence the nationalist people of the North) was tragic, wrong headed and held back progress.
It was and is plainly evident to most of SF's support in the North and South that Dublin was willing to suppress them at any cost. (It's interesting to note that the broadcasting bans where introduced shortly after Sinn Fein decided to take the challenge laid down to them and run candidates in elections and the authorities realised that Sinn Fein had a sizeable mandate)
Sinn Fein could probably not find any ethical or politically undamaging way to take part in this royal visit as we all witness Section 31 being enforced again by an 'all inclusive':rolleyes: Dublin parliament. (coincidentally? a Fine Gael/Labour coalition AGAIN!)
The ban on political posters, the security cordon, the secret police vetting tactics and the self imposed mainstream media's censorship of any dissension, effectively suppressed people with idealogical objections. (The way our 'independent' media has rolled out the red carpet has also been particularly nauseating.) Damage has been done, remains to be seen how much.

p.s. And they let that squeaky smiling typical southern royalist Gay Byrne in on the act....but that was always gonna happen, wasn't it! :rolleyes: Silly me!

irishh_bob

Happyman42 wrote: »

No evidence that all parties and TD's were invited, that I can find anyway, was Mick Wallace invited? Ming?
There certainly seemed to be a very 'select' few at the dinner last night. I counted one newspaper editor (outgoing I think) Geraldine Kennedy.
I am sure Gerry was invited but my point was about members of Sinn Fein in general.
Has anyone access to the full invitee list? I would think not, although it would be very revealing. I don't subscribe fully to what this writer has to say, but he makes a bit of sense and the more I see, the more I think he might be on to something.

http://www.irishleftreview.org/2011/05/19/queen-revelation/

mick wallace and ming flanagan are hardly instrumental figures in northern ireland

R P McMurphy

kelko1916 wrote: »

so when your neighbour is denied his basic human rights like a vote , or housing , or schooling, because he is a nationalist irishman like you might claim to be , thats not a problem ?. did you do anything to help him /her ?, what exactly did the republic do for nationalists in northern ireland from 1922 -1969 , thats right nothing ,and that failure is what brought about the troubles in northern ireland in the first place , but of course thats no concern to you .
as a country and a people that should be a source of great shame to citzens of republic of ireland
perhaps its a karma from this that you are now bankrupt and depending on the kindness of other countrys .

There is a large amount of truth in what you are saying in this post. You could even extend this to a number of the border counties within the Republic, cut off from their natural hinterlands they were effectively left to stagnate over a number of decades.

Happyman42

irishh_bob wrote: »

mick wallace and ming flanagan are hardly instrumental figures in northern ireland

I never said they were ^ ^...but one of them would certainly be deemed a potential embarrassment. One couldn't have that, could one?

Liam Byrne

largepants wrote: »

. The same people pontificating about SF moving on are probably the same people who wouldn't vote SF because of their associations with the paramilitaries in the past.

Precisely! We don't vote for hypocrites!

The day they move on is the day that hypocrisy disappears and then we might consider voting for them.

But at the moment they refuse to move on while requesting us to, which is completely hypocritical, and that is a massive issue, regardless of the recency of their violence and other activities.

Not only that, but their stance on stuff like the queen of England shows that they don't represent us or want to, so why would we consider them ? They can't just become "acceptable" overnight to 2 polar opposite groups; they need to change or accept the fact that Ireland has moved on and they'd have to settle for their core support.