Christianity, Nationalism, Republicanism and Patriotism suddenly seen as idiotic???

Nodin

PrincessLola wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with embracing Irish culture (in fact I think its great).
The only problem is when it becomes loaded with importance and some kind of extreme sense of national identity, the notion that children MUST learn Irish language and dancing because it is Irish and therfore = our heritage is just creepy.
This is how Nazism started people,.
................

Hitler 'Na bi ag caint Bearla'
Himmler 'sigh' An bhfuil cead agam ag dul go dti an leithreas?'

sensibleken

PrincessLola wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with embracing Irish culture (in fact I think its great).
The only problem is when it becomes loaded with importance and some kind of extreme sense of national identity, the notion that children MUST learn Irish language and dancing because it is Irish and therfore = our heritage is just creepy.
This is how Nazism started people, Hitler wanted the Germans to have their own strong sense of national identity.
Even worse is when we are taught to hate England because that somehow also = national pride.

whoah there. that is nothing like how Nazi germany started.

Godwins Law. Thread over, and it was fun too

ImpossibleDuck

Monty Burnz wrote: »

What right do you have to be proud? What did you do?

Do you honestly think pride is restricted to oneself? I mean, is it not possible to have pride in other people? I have great respect for these people and hope to contribute something to the country one day too.

What right do I have to be proud? Well, as a 100% pure-blooded Irishman, I feel that these people are my ancestors and even if they are not, what difference does it make? Is it really so disgusting to admire ones country?

ImpossibleDuck

PrincessLola wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with embracing Irish culture (in fact I think its great).
The only problem is when it becomes loaded with importance and some kind of extreme sense of national identity, the notion that children MUST learn Irish language and dancing because it is Irish and therfore = our heritage is just creepy.
This is how Nazism started people, Hitler wanted the Germans to have their own strong sense of national identity.
Even worse is when we are taught to hate England because that somehow also = national pride.

Whoah indeed, did you really just compare Irish culture to Nazi culture? I think you need some f**king perspective!

Wanting our children to learn our language and Hitler wanting "his children" to do whatever IS NOT THE SAME THING.

And as for the natural hatred of England? History. We learn this in schools, how horrible the English people can be! Not just to the Irish but around the world! They invented the bloody concentration camp for Christ's sake! History unmisktakenly shows us how god-awful a nation they are.

Overheal

Monty Burnz wrote: »

What right do you have to be proud? What did you do?

Why not be as proud of Neil Armstrong (with whom, through no act of your own, you may share a gender)?

Why not be as proud of Albert Einstein (with whom you may share a star sign)?

Me? I'm very proud of how the Chinese invented water clocks.

There's suddenly an issue with being proud and/or thankful of generations that came before you and shaped the world you live in? We can all be proud of the first Man that invented fire, for instance. People also have every right to be proud of their ancestors for such things as establishing nations for their children to grow in. I wouldn't belittle an Irishman who felt proud of people who some 100 years ago helped form the Republic. Get a grip, Monty.

sensibleken

ImpossibleDuck wrote: »

Do you honestly think pride is restricted to oneself? I mean, is it not possible to have pride in other people? I have great respect for these people and hope to contribute something to the country one day too.

What right do I have to be proud? Well, as a 100% pure-blooded Irishman, I feel that these people are my ancestors and even if they are not, what difference does it make? Is it really so disgusting to admire ones country?

well the arguement is that admiration is different to pride and they shouldnt be confused.

you can admire the achievements of others in the past but taking pride in something you had no hand in is different

Overheal

sensibleken wrote: »

well the arguement is that admiration is different to pride and they shouldnt be confused.

you can admire the achievements of others in the past but taking pride in something you had no hand in is different

Fair. But when you wish to view it that way Pride begets contributions. Through the very nature of living in your country you are contributing to it's well being and you have a stake in it. Is pride really so far-fetched when you think about it in those terms? I pay my taxes, I work, I live, I vote. Don't I deserve the right to be proud of my surroundings?

rounding tattenham Corner

it can be hard to call yourself a republican etc when the name has been hijacked by undesirables,

In Ireland by nationalistic scumbags who be it kneecapping or painting pillar boxes green,

In america the ideas of Teddy Roosevelt minimal government letting people get on with their lives both in america and outside, has been hijacked by a bunch of yahoo's who see a gigantic military, bailing out banks, tax breaks for the rich as been republican ideals,

In both cases as always it's the rich and powerful holding sway over dim people.

sensibleken

ImpossibleDuck wrote: »

Whoah indeed, did you really just compare Irish culture to Nazi culture? I think you need some f**king perspective!

Wanting our children to learn our language and Hitler wanting "his children" to do whatever IS NOT THE SAME THING.

And as for the natural hatred of England? History. We learn this in schools, how horrible the English people can be! Not just to the Irish but around the world! They invented the bloody concentration camp for Christ's sake! History unmisktakenly shows us how god-awful a nation they are.

this is the kind of biggoted ramblings that drag us back to the bad old days.

you do realise that until the 20th century Britain was ruled by an elite few? to judge a nation of 60 million people based on things that happened before they are born is not only wrong but incredibly idiotic in the extreme

sensibleken

Overheal wrote: »

Fair. But when you wish to view it that way Pride begets contributions. Through the very nature of living in your country you are contributing to it's well being and you have a stake in it. Is pride really so far-fetched when you think about it in those terms? I pay my taxes, I work, I live, I vote. Don't I deserve the right to be proud of my surroundings?

good point.

ImpossibleDuck

Overheal wrote: »

I wouldn't belittle an Irishman who felt proud of people who some 100 years ago helped form the Republic. Get a grip, Monty.

PRECISELY!!! Like it or not, Republicans and Nationalists established shaped this country into what it is today.

Let's use Dev and Collins as examples...both Nationalists, both wanted the same thing(essentially).

These two men formed this country and I just don't understand why people see Nationalists as lower than them or somehow stupid.

rounding tattenham Corner

ImpossibleDuck wrote: »

PRECISELY!!! Like it or not, Republicans and Nationalists established shaped this country into what it is today.

Let's use Dev and Collins as examples...both Nationalists, both wanted the same thing(essentially).

These two men formed this country and I just don't understand why people see Nationalists as lower than them or somehow stupid.

so you're saying Dev and Collins are basically to blame for the country's state right now:)

ImpossibleDuck

Overheal wrote: »

Fair. But when you wish to view it that way Pride begets contributions. Through the very nature of living in your country you are contributing to it's well being and you have a stake in it. Is pride really so far-fetched when you think about it in those terms? I pay my taxes, I work, I live, I vote. Don't I deserve the right to be proud of my surroundings?

Well said. Someone asked why do I have the right? - Don't we deserve it? Indeed.

ImpossibleDuck

rounding tattenham Corner wrote: »

so you're saying Dev and Collins are basically to blame for the country's state right now:)

Jesus Christ son, I have heard of people twisting words before but f*ck, that was just taking my words and saying something completely unrelated.

Have you considered a career in Journalism?

Overheal

ImpossibleDuck wrote: »

PRECISELY!!! Like it or not, Republicans and Nationalists established shaped this country into what it is today.

Let's use Dev and Collins as examples...both Nationalists, both wanted the same thing(essentially).

These two men formed this country and I just don't understand why people see Nationalists as lower than them or somehow stupid.

Probably something to do with the violence thereafter. I don't imagine they enjoyed unanimous support in their own time either, and not many people appreciate Republican violence that exists today, with good reasons. I too appreciate what the founding fathers did for the United States to sever imperial rule but I also respect the fact that we now live in an era where the UK is our closest ally. I understand that's a little harder for Irish to swallow but the violence isn't solving much.

parker kent

Overheal wrote: »

Probably something to do with the violence thereafter. I don't imagine they enjoyed unanimous support in their own time either, and not many people appreciate Republican violence that exists today, with good reasons. I too appreciate what the founding fathers did for the United States to sever imperial rule but I also respect the fact that we now live in an era where the UK is our closest ally. I understand that's a little harder for Irish to swallow but the violence isn't solving much.

Well this is exactly the reason. The Easter Rising did not have popular support at the time. Then add the divisiveness of a Civil War and 30 years of the Troubles and the Provos. Being proud of being Irish is one thing, but I'd rather not associate myself with certain elements of Nationalism.

The above example of appreciating the Founding Fathers but being happy to live in a different era is a good example. The people alive at the time of Cromwell, 1798, 1916 etc are gone. Lets live our lives according to the times we live in.

parker kent

sensibleken wrote: »

this is the kind of biggoted ramblings that drag us back to the bad old days.

you do realise that until the 20th century Britain was ruled by an elite few? to judge a nation of 60 million people based on things that happened before they are born is not only wrong but incredibly idiotic in the extreme

This quote is bang on the money as well.

RichieC

Man, I love reading the tears of the sky santy brigade... boohoo you can't burn us at the stake for talking ill of your stupid beliefs anymore.

cry more.

Dudess

ImpossibleDuck wrote: »

And as for the natural hatred of England?

Natural?

History. We learn this in schools, how horrible the English people can be! Not just to the Irish but around the world! They invented the bloody concentration camp for Christ's sake! History unmisktakenly shows us how god-awful a nation they are.

A grip - get one.

partyatmygaff

liah wrote: »

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Dravokivich wrote: »

Crusades?

Missionaries sent all over the place throughout the 18th / 19th centuries?

Cool. So can I have a go of the time machine after "the_groutch" is done with it? It'd be interesting to live back in the middle ages.

RichieC wrote: »

Man, I love reading the tears of the sky santy brigade... boohoo you can't burn us at the stake for talking ill of your stupid beliefs anymore.

cry more.

Spare us the usual tripe.

Wolfe Tone

ImpossibleDuck wrote: »

I've noticed this development over the past couple of years in Ireland especially with the decline of Catholicism.

Suddenly "intelligent" people see you as stupid if you are in any way religious, nationalist, republican(not specifically Irish, but International too) or Patriotic.

First with the religion, suddenly your "stupid" for following a religion - really bugs me.

But it's the rest that really annoy me, how if you are Nationalist, Republican or Patriotic you are looked down upon.

When I mention Republicanism, I am not specifically talking about Irish republicanism which in extreme cases is controversial. But republicanism is looked down upon SOO much in America. We've all seen the Americans making fun of republicans.

(i) Has anyone else experienced this or is it just me?

I have lost a few friends who just could not comprehend or accept my beliefs and opinions.

(ii) Do you think that friendships/relationships can only be successful if the other party share the same beliefs or outlook on the world/life?

As a republican I don't let that kind of attitude bother me.

It's much worse on this site than in real life. A perfect example of that is the thread on baptism. This post in particular;

OutlawPete wrote: »

Might as well have a Poll asking people if they are practicing paedophiles, might even be less stigma attached to it.

On boards the above is true, however in 'real life' its much less so. (thats what Pete was pointing out I think)

Don't let the "right on' and 'PC' opinions of others dissuade you from your beliefs. You are entitled to them. You can be sure that if it was 'cool' to be a devout catholic the same people would attack the atheists.

philologos

RichieC wrote: »

Man, I love reading the tears of the sky santy brigade... boohoo you can't burn us at the stake for talking ill of your stupid beliefs anymore.

cry more.

Not at all. Many people who held similar beliefs to my own were burned at the stake by the RCC during the Counter-Reformation. I'm sure most Roman Catholics would say that that was wrong. The Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition as far as I am concerned are as far away from the example given to us by Christ as possible. They are the result of human greed, human hate and human selfishness of the type that has been manifest in other secular causes since.

I don't claim to follow institutions, what I do claim to do is follow Jesus. (Or at least stumble after Him)

Grudaire

parker kent wrote: »

Well this is exactly the reason. The Easter Rising did not have popular support at the time. Then add the divisiveness of a Civil War and 30 years of the Troubles and the Provos. Being proud of being Irish is one thing, but I'd rather not associate myself with certain elements of Nationalism.

The above example of appreciating the Founding Fathers but being happy to live in a different era is a good example. The people alive at the time of Cromwell, 1798, 1916 etc are gone. Lets live our lives according to the times we live in.

Being patriotic, and indeed a nationalist doesn't mean you have to support the extremist elements. It would seem to me that you are conforming rather than going with what you actually believe.

We shouldn't give up nationalism to the extremes. This has already happened in some regards, look at the Easter Lilly and how it has become associated with the IRA alone. For years we had constitutional nationalists and physical force nationalists.
Why can people no longer be a constitutional nationalist?



PS: What constitutes popular support for the rising? Indeed there was a sizeable number against the Rising, but not all. My understanding is that many of the 'poorer classes' supported the uprisings all along. And there was significant ghettos in Dublin at the time. Journalistic references from the time were quite biased and thus unreliable, Anyway I digress...

ImpossibleDuck

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

As a republican I don't let that kind of attitude bother me.

It's much worse on this site than in real life. A perfect example of that is the thread on baptism. This post in particular;


On boards the above is true, however in 'real life' its much less so. (thats what Pete was pointing out I think)

Don't let the "right on' and 'PC' opinions of others dissuade you from your beliefs. You are entitled to them. You can be sure that if it was 'cool' to be a devout catholic the same people would attack the atheists.

This thread was inspired by me losing yet another real life friend due to their inability to accept my beliefs

EDIT: Not only do they not accept my beliefs but they feel the need to belittle me and harshly critise my views along with the derogatory insults in an attempt to prove that I am lower than them because of my views.

Wolfe Tone

ImpossibleDuck wrote: »

This thread was inspired by me losing yet another real life friend due to their inability to accept my beliefs

EDIT: Not only do they not accept my beliefs but they feel the need to belittle me and harshly critise my views along with the derogatory insults in an attempt to prove that I am lower than them because of my views.

Well then they ain't your friends and you are better off without.

ImpossibleDuck

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Well then they ain't your friends and you are better off without.

Yes that's what everyone will say but the point was that these were the intelligent people whose opinions I have always valued and then to suddenly realise that they're all against you just because you love your country or are religious is a very hard thing to deal with.

Wolfe Tone

ImpossibleDuck wrote: »

Yes that's what everyone will say but the point was that these were the intelligent people whose opinions I have always valued and then to suddenly realise that they're all against you just because you love your country or are religious is a very hard thing to deal with.

I have friends who would not share my views at all, not even remotely. Proper friends respect each persons individual views even when they don't agree with them. I have debates etc with them over political things (one of my friends absolutely despises SF with a passion) and no matter how much we disagree there is always an underlying respect. It seems your so called "friends" don't respect you at all. They sound very insecure in that they belittle you for your views.

What I did and always have done is inform myself and come to have my own views and convictions. You don't need other people to affirm your opinions. I for one don't care, every single person can disagree with me on something, but if I have formed an opinion, looked at the facts and reached a conclusion, fcuk them I'll make my own mind up thank you very much. You should not let yourself be bullied by people who want to tell you how to think. (sometimes I take that a bit too far though and results in me defending my position for what seems like forever)

You are better off without friends like that. Maybe they don't realize but having ideals etc that are very close to you mocked and derided hurts, especially when the people doing so are supposed to be friends.

You really are better off without.

parker kent

Cliste wrote: »

Being patriotic, and indeed a nationalist doesn't mean you have to support the extremist elements. It would seem to me that you are conforming rather than going with what you actually believe.

We shouldn't give up nationalism to the extremes. This has already happened in some regards, look at the Easter Lilly and how it has become associated with the IRA alone. For years we had constitutional nationalists and physical force nationalists.
Why can people no longer be a constitutional nationalist?

PS: What constitutes popular support for the rising? Indeed there was a sizeable number against the Rising, but not all. My understanding is that many of the 'poorer classes' supported the uprisings all along. And there was significant ghettos in Dublin at the time. Journalistic references from the time were quite biased and thus unreliable, Anyway I digress...

A short post on here is not going to fully describe my feelings about nationalism. I'm going to justify my beliefs but I most certainly am not conforming rather than going with what I believe. I'm more than capable of making decisions based on my beliefs. A bit insulting to say otherwise really.

Ask Diarmaid Ferriter about popular support for the rising. He will agree with my view.

Grudaire

parker kent wrote: »

A short post on here is not going to fully describe my feelings about nationalism. I'm going to justify my beliefs but I most certainly am not conforming rather than going with what I believe. I'm more than capable of making decisions based on my beliefs. A bit insulting to say otherwise really.

Ask Diarmuid Ferriter about popular support for the rising. He will agree with my view.

Apologies, That wasn't aimed at you in particular (crap wording I admit) but I do think that the extreme elements have been allowed to hijack the republican/nationalistic cause. People should be able to support a united Ireland without endorsing violence.
You did yourself say that you: "but I'd rather not associate myself with certain elements of Nationalism." Perhaps I misunderstood your meaning?


--

Opinions on the past are indeed just that - opinions. It doesn't matter if you have several doctorates or not. I do recall there is a report (google fails me) from an American who was in Ireland at the time who said that there was support among the poorest in Dublin for the Rising all along (heck they managed a few thousand Rebels despite a 'lack of popular support') I'm not even arguing whether a majority were for or against. I'm just putting my two cents out there

ImpossibleDuck

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I have friends who would not share my views at all, not even remotely. Proper friends respect each persons individual views even when they don't agree with them. I have debates etc with them over political things (one of my friends absolutely despises SF with a passion) and no matter how much we disagree there is always an underlying respect. It seems your so called "friends" don't respect you at all. They sound very insecure in that they belittle you for your views.

What I did and always have done is inform myself and come to have my own views and convictions. You don't need other people to affirm your opinions. I for one don't care, every single person can disagree with me on something, but if I have formed an opinion, looked at the facts and reached a conclusion, fcuk them I'll make my own mind up thank you very much. You should not let yourself be bullied by people who want to tell you how to think. (sometimes I take that a bit too far though and results in me defending my position for what seems like forever)

You are better off without friends like that. Maybe they don't realize but having ideals etc that are very close to you mocked and derided hurts, especially when the people doing so are supposed to be friends.

You really are better off without.

I totally agree with everything you've said. I still respect them despite their views and frankly I don't care whether they disagree with me or not.

I was just shell-shocked to find that a lot of people have now adopted this....way of thinking.

And it's not even whether their my friends or not, I just hate being constantly looked down upon for my views by people who I have always considered my social equal - intelligent, cultured people. I'm just finding it hard to come to terms with this.

Thanks though; "What I did and always have done is inform myself and come to have my own views and convictions. You don't need other people to affirm your opinions." Helped

ImpossibleDuck

Cliste wrote: »

but I do think that the extreme elements have been allowed to hijack the republican/nationalistic cause.

I think this is possibly the biggest factor. People who oppose republicanism usually use these eejits as an example.

I think it's a very biggoted and steryotyped view on Republicans.

parker kent

Cliste wrote: »

You did yourself say that you: "but I'd rather not associate myself with certain elements of Nationalism." Perhaps I misunderstood your meaning?

That just means that whatever I think about nationalism, I'd rather not associate myself with those people and their extremist views.

My other thoughts on nationalism would be in line with my earlier posts on the subject in this thread. I think an affinity and strong relationship with your area is normal. But I don't extend that to nationalism. I don't think there is a divine right for any landmass to be a particular country. I'd be much happier with a peaceful Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland than worrying about nationalism. I see an affinity with where you come from and nationalism as different things.

paddypowder

ImpossibleDuck wrote: »

I've noticed this development over the past couple of years in Ireland especially with the decline of Catholicism.

Suddenly "intelligent" people see you as stupid if you are in any way religious, nationalist, republican(not specifically Irish, but International too) or Patriotic.

First with the religion, suddenly your "stupid" for following a religion - really bugs me.

But it's the rest that really annoy me, how if you are Nationalist, Republican or Patriotic you are looked down upon.

When I mention Republicanism, I am not specifically talking about Irish republicanism which in extreme cases is controversial. But republicanism is looked down upon SOO much in America. We've all seen the Americans making fun of republicans.

(i) Has anyone else experienced this or is it just me?

I have lost a few friends who just could not comprehend or accept my beliefs and opinions.

(ii) Do you think that friendships/relationships can only be successful if the other party share the same beliefs or outlook on the world/life?

we are the only country that looks on patriotism with disdain

its down to an education system that teaches us more about the renaissance than about the history of this country and the things its people went through and achieved

I have friends that went to school in both england and france
and the sense of achievment and self worth that is instilled in them from a very young age is amazing.
we dont even learn the national anthem in this country.. they sing it every day/week in foreign schools


to answer the second part of your question

obviously we have to be compatible in order to have successfull relationshps/friendships
however this doesn't mean we must believe the same things
compatibility is broader
for example
an athiest and a christian can be perfectly compatible if they share an "each to their own" attitude as opposed to a "religious nut/must believe" attitude

partyatmygaff

paddypowder wrote: »

we are the only country that looks on patriotism with disdain

Doubtful of that. *Cough* Germany.

its down to an education system that teaches us more about the renaissance than about the history of this country and the things its people went through and achieved

In JC History we had an entire section of the book dedicated to Irish independence and Northern Ireland.

I have friends that went to school in both england and france
and the sense of achievment and self worth that is instilled in them from a very young age is amazing.

Your country never achieved anything. People of your country achieved something. If we all were "Proud of our Country's achievements" and sat content with that we would achieve nothing.

an athiest and a christian can be perfectly compatible if they share an "each to their own" attitude as opposed to a "religious nut/must believe" and a "atheist nut/must not believe" attitude

Extremism in one's views is not in any way limited to religious people.

Laika1986

ImpossibleDuck wrote: »

I totally agree with everything you've said. I still respect them despite their views and frankly I don't care whether they disagree with me or not.

I was just shell-shocked to find that a lot of people have now adopted this....way of thinking.

And it's not even whether their my friends or not, I just hate being constantly looked down upon for my views by people who I have always considered my social equal - intelligent, cultured people. I'm just finding it hard to come to terms with this.

Thanks though; "What I did and always have done is inform myself and come to have my own views and convictions. You don't need other people to affirm your opinions." Helped

Have you ever considered maybe your more rational than your friends and it's them not you that need to change?

HavingCrack

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Doubtful of that. *Cough* Germany

To be fair the German national anthem opens with the lines 'Deutschland uber alles' :pac:. If that isn't nationalistic I don't know what is..

Edit: They don't actually sing the 1st stanza anymore...ah