I think we got an apology!

Liam Byrne

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Why would they accept an apology when they would be angry at the islands continued partition? Its not that complicated.


(And btw, that clearly was not an apology)

What's unclear is what you're even expecting an apology for, at this stage.....

Anyway, the very fact that you can say "why would they accept" means that - as I said - you cannot say for definite, which was my whole point.

I didn't say they WOULD have accepted it, I said that none of us know or can say. That is a fact.

Would they "accept an apology" from Gerry Adams & Co for their atrocities ? Would they be disgusted at THEIR murder of innocent people ? Of Gardai ? Of kids in Omagh ?

Or are we down to more double-standards, even within fictional claims of what dead people think, whereby Adams' "apology" would have been accepted by them ?

I mean, since yourself & Happyman42 seem to have the inside track and monopoly and know what the dead think, maybe you could let us know whether they accepted those, too ?

celtictiger32

celtictiger32 wrote: »

i was wondering when someone would get around to a SF bashing session.:rolleyes:

To be fair to Sinn Féin and their supporters,it is not possible at this time for them to join the rest of us,not with the 32CSM chomping at the bit.

I'll hazzard a guess that this is very difficult for them and in fairness most politicians south and North know that.
The country has accepted the Queens right to be head of state in NI via our vote on the GFA but SF have not and will not.
Thats a perfectly acceptable stand to take.

It would be better if they were not criticized for it and it would be better if they themselves avoided commentary on it and journo's and ourselves didn't keep pressing them on it.
It's quite ok for them to avoid all contact with physical albeit figurehead symbols of that British rule up north.
It's their stated stance and to be fair,it's principled of them to stick with that I think.

Where they try to explain it,thats where most Irish people start yawning and say Ffs! not this again.

Technically SF and most republicans are not giving the appearance of moving on when faced with this weeks visit.
But in reality in many ways they are moving on,behind the scenes.
For anybody with a basic understanding of recent Irish history,that position is inherently ok.
It's also doing the country some service behind the scenes [and I actually include fta 69/Éirigí in this despite being dubious of some of the people coat tailing their protests and despite being in fundamental disagreement with a lot of their policies] as it hoovers up a lot of misguidance on the fringes of Republicans and I've no doubt is keeping the likes of the 32csm et all corralled into the tiny group that they are.

The above points I feel have to be made , despite a lot of the understandable trend in the rest of the discussion in this thread.
I realise I do from time to time urge Republican posters here to move on.I'm replying to their debate there but I hope really by this to have given a different level of understanding to a bigger picture.
I'm positive.Pragmatism like a river flows well in the end.It will find it's path,that I'm sure of.

KeithAFC

I don't think its too much of a leap to say that the men and women of 1916 would be angry and disappointed at this countries partition.

If i had my way, i would take the 3 counties of Ulster in the Irish Republic back and make an even bigger partition. The 1916 rebels should have known they were never going to get all of Ulster. Lucky to even get the 3 if we went about it right.

Soldie

KeithAFC wrote: »

If i had my way, i would take the 3 counties of Ulster in the Irish Republic back and make an even bigger partition. The 1916 rebels should have known they were never going to get all of Ulster. Lucky to even get the 3 if we went about it right.

How about Louth of Leitrim instead?

Wolfe Tone

KeithAFC wrote: »

If i had my way, i would take the 3 counties of Ulster in the Irish Republic back and make an even bigger partition. The 1916 rebels should have known they were never going to get all of Ulster. Lucky to even get the 3 if we went about it right.

I would have no problem with that keith if you feel that all of Ulster should collectively decide its future.

In fact keith unionists were offered that and I wish they took it, but they realized they wouldnt be able to have their orange state as there would be too many papists. I wish you get your wish because we would have a UI shortly after once a vote was taken.

celtictiger32

KeithAFC wrote: »

If i had my way, i would take the 3 counties of Ulster in the Irish Republic back and make an even bigger partition. The 1916 rebels should have known they were never going to get all of Ulster. Lucky to even get the 3 if we went about it right.

arent we all glad people like you dont have their way!

later12

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I would have no problem with that keith if you feel that all of Ulster should collectively decide its future.

In fact keith unionists were offered that and I wish they took it, but they realized they wouldnt be able to have their orange state as there would be too many papists. I wish you get your wish because we would have a UI shortly after once a vote was taken.

Absolutely agree with the above. I don't know why you came up with such a silly suggestion KeithAFC, probably something to do with your own form of nationalism, but from the perspective of Unionist Nationalism, to bring so many Irish nationalists into the union would be pretty stupid. Such a Union would only strengthen the numbers within that union who were in favour of a United Ireland.

KeithAFC

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I would have no problem with that keith if you feel that all of Ulster should collectively decide its future.

In fact keith unionists were offered that and I wish they took it, but they realized they wouldnt be able to have their orange state as there would be too many papists. I wish you get your wish because we would have a UI shortly after once a vote was taken.

A wudnae want that. I think the Ulster Scots people should have its own country.

KeithAFC

later10 wrote: »

Absolutely agree with the above. I don't know why you came up with such a silly suggestion KeithAFC, probably something to do with your own form of nationalism, but from the perspective of Unionist Nationalism, to bring so many Irish nationalists into the union would be pretty stupid. Such a Union would only strengthen the numbers within that union who were in favour of a United Ireland.

Education is the key. Any of the Ulster Scots which are from a Republican background need convinced that the people down 'south' as they say, are a different people. Different culture, different ethinic background.

Wolfe Tone

KeithAFC wrote: »

Education is the key. Any of the Ulster Scots which are from a Republican background need convinced that the people down 'south' as they say, are a different people. Different culture, different ethinic background.

Keith I live in Louth, close to the border. When I go to Newry I see little difference in the type of people I meet.

Happyman42

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So you're speaking for dead people now ? How could you possibly or even remotely know what they "would have accepted" ?

I can speak for them in as much as anyone can, I know what they stood for. And I am just as entitled to do that as the upstanding defenders of our hertitage who have been bowing and scraping while referencing them all week.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I sincerely doubt that they "would have accepted" blowing the bollox out of Omagh and shoppers, or murdering Jerry McCabe, or bomb threats against Irish citizens this week in Dublin and Monaghan either, but then I'd admit that no-one can know that for a fact unless they are members of Irish Psychics Live.

So you don't speak for Irish people and you don't speak for the dead in the Garden of Rememberance......

This is were you reveal how little you must know of the War Of Independence and the rest of our history. Because if you did, you would know that it wasn't a very nice time either. It was a bloodbath in actual fact, with brother turning on brother, neighbour spying on neighbour, mistakes were made in their droves too. There were also plenty that sought to make personal gains. All of which contributed to the happenings you mention above, so yes, I can say that they would 'understand' why these things happen in conflict and I would be fairly sure they wouldn't have indulged in the politics of condemnation either.
It was the same in similar situations across the globe, c'est la vie, so no need to be ashamed or embarrassed that the actual facts don't fit the sophisticated misty eyed sanitised revisionist version.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

....you can speak for yourself, but the only "guff" in your post above is the fact that you are trying to pretend that you know what people from 1916 would and would not have accepted.

I was speculating based on my understanding, simple as. And you pretend that you know different and on it goes.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

That's a bit rich considering some of your claims the other day that the "majority" of people who were neutral or supported the Queen of England's visit felt - what was it again that you incorrectly called them - "inferior" ?

Ah I guess at least you're consistent in your inconsistencies.

I'm even more convinced now of the prevalence of that inferiority complex, first there is the ridiculously heavy handed and successful attempt to stop the Queen seeing any 'distasteful protests' and then I listened to no less than our president gush and fawn last night. How embarrassing was that? The little 'wow' when QE2 uttered her voice-coached bit of Irish said it all, Or maybe Mary is every schoolkids fantasy Oral Irish Examiner :rolleyes::D

tayto lover

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Keith I live in Louth, close to the border. When I go to Newry I see little difference in the type of people I meet.

You need to go about a mile out the Armagh Road then.

later12

KeithAFC wrote: »

Education is the key. Any of the Ulster Scots which are from a Republican background need convinced that the people down 'south' as they say, are a different people. Different culture, different ethinic background.

I don't think any people, anywhere, deserve the boredom of being educated along Nationalist lines.

As for different culture, you just know they're all sat behind their old net curtains in neighbouring housing estates, watching the same dull television shows, listening to the same dull music, complaining about the same dull jobs.

Once in a while everyone might put on orange costumes or green costumes and march about pretending to be decidedly different, but we all know that when they get fed up of that they go back to their neighbouring housing estates, behind the same net curtains, watching the same television shows, listening to the same music, drinking the same beer and complaining about the same dull jobs....

KeithAFC

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Keith I live in Louth, close to the border. When I go to Newry I see little difference in the type of people I meet.

You aren't even from Ulster then?

KeithAFC

later10 wrote: »

I don't think any people, anywhere, deserve the boredom of being educated along Nationalist lines.

As for different culture, you just know they're all sat behind their old net curtains in neighbouring housing estates, watching the same dull television shows, listening to the same dull music, complaining about the same dull jobs.

Once in a while everyone might put on orange costumes or green costumes and march about pretending to be decidedly different, but we all know that when they get fed up of that they go back to their neighbouring housing estates, behind the same net curtains, watching the same television shows, listening to the same music, drinking the same beer and complaining about the same dull jobs....

Not a good argument. The people in the South of America have a different culture, ethnic background and yet still watch the same TV shows etc. It isn't really about that.

tayto lover

KeithAFC wrote: »

You aren't even from Ulster then?

Another armchair one !!

Wolfe Tone

tayto lover wrote: »

You need to go about a mile out the Armagh Road then.

The point I was making, as you well know, is that unlike keith seems to be pretending there are Irish people in Ulster too.

KeithAFC

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

The point I was making, as you well know, is that unlike keith seems to be pretending there are Irish people in Ulster too.

I'd like to know how many compared to Ulster Scots people.

Soldie

KeithAFC wrote: »

Education is the key. Any of the Ulster Scots which are from a Republican background need convinced that the people down 'south' as they say, are a different people. Different culture, different ethinic background.

You should head over to Inniskeen and see what they think of your idea. They are supposedly your people, after all.

Cú Giobach

KeithAFC wrote: »

Education is the key. Any of the Ulster Scots which are from a Republican background need convinced that the people down 'south' as they say, are a different people. Different culture, different ethinic background.

Nice to see you want to foster more divisions. :rolleyes:
Why don't you join us here in the 21st century, it's not a bad place.

celtictiger32

KeithAFC wrote: »

A wudnae want that. I think the Ulster Scots people should have its own country.

they can have one of those little islands off the scottish coast:D

Black Swan

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