Looking to get an app developed

iMax

Hi, hope this is the right place, I've been asked to get pricing to get an app developed that will hook into an online database & have no idea where to start.

It's going to be iphone first & then android (& then ???).

Anyone care to give me a nudge in the right direction ?

aidan_walsh

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055234599

iMax

Thanks for that (I think), I'm not actually offering a job though, just looking for some advice.

fasty

Do you have a spec for the app you want developed? How about an approx budget?

iMax

Haven't got a clue on budget as we haven't done anything like this before, it's one of the things I need to find out.

As for spec, I have a basic one but was hoping to work with someone to develop it.

bobbytables

Apologies for blatantly bumping this thread but I'm not sure if the OP got sorted out, and it left on an interesting note.

OP says they have a "basic spec" and need someone to help them with it. Considering a development quotation (apart from perhaps ballpark figures) cannot be issued until the project scope/spec is well defined, how could a business relationship be formed between a professional & client in such a case?

I am curious as to what most people would do in such a situation, because arriving at a completed spec takes time and as the OP said they hope to work with someone to develop it. For free?, considering that spec could then be taken anywhere.

iMax

Op here, regarding working with someone to develop it, we have no idea about how to go about this, we know (roughly) what we want to do & wish to get input into if this is possible or not.

In terms of specing it out, we need to get a ballpark quote first & then sit down with two or three developers to see the level we can bring it to.

To be honest, the response so far has been totally underwhelming. I've been contacted by four people, gave them our company details, contact details, an outline of what we want to do etc & only one has got back to me. I personally contacted one successful developer (on here) who I was familiar with, gave him the same details & am still waiting on a reply.

Due to the MD being unexpectedly unavailable the last week or so we haven't been chasing up, but it's been a disappointing experience & we may have to cast the net outside of Ireland which we really did not want to do.

John_Mc

To be fair, translating a high detail spec from low detail spec requires a lot of work up front, and without any guarantee that any business will come for it. I would imagine that this is why the response has been underwhelming for you.

Might be a good idea to hire a business analyst or functional design freelancer to do this for you first. Then you can take it to a developer who will know exactly what needs to be done, and can price correctly for it.

srsly78

I offered him some free consultancy. Should at least put him on the right path.

Liam Byrne

iMax wrote: »

Op here, regarding working with someone to develop it, we have no idea about how to go about this, we know (roughly) what we want to do & wish to get input into if this is possible or not.

In terms of specing it out, we need to get a ballpark quote first & then sit down with two or three developers to see the level we can bring it to.

That's almost the equivalent of getting someone to quote for building your house before knowing the size or finish level required.

Both the spec and that "sitting down" take time - serious time if you really want an app to be top-notch - and that time will have to be covered somehow.

Basic apps that get listings from databases in single categories are relatively simple; then there are options for different categories, caching (for when someone's offline) and saving user preferences, etc - so a "simple" spec could end up huge (and impressive) - the devil is in the detail.

Pop me a PM if you want me to have a cursory look at it for you, and I'll see if I can take it on or maybe point you in the right direction.

onedmc

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Both the spec and that "sitting down" take time - serious time if you really want an app to be top-notch - and that time will have to be covered somehow.

Hmmm and thats like walking into a truck sales room and telling the sales person that I need transport for the company.

Only for the sales person to respond with, Well we need to find out exactly what you need and that takes time and I'll have to charge you for it.

You need to sell first then collect the money. He is just asking someone to sell to him, take him out on a test drive, show him what you have in stock, what have others paid and what did they get for it. Through out ideas he's never done this before ....

aidan_walsh

Hmmm and thats like walking into a truck sales room and telling the sales person that I need transport for the company.

Only for the sales person to respond with, Well we need to find out exactly what you need and that takes time and I'll have to charge you for it.

Not really, no.

Liam Byrne

onedmc wrote: »

Hmmm and thats like walking into a truck sales room and telling the sales person that I need transport for the company.

Only for the sales person to respond with, Well we need to find out exactly what you need and that takes time and I'll have to charge you for it.

You need to sell first then collect the money. He is just asking someone to sell to him, take him out on a test drive, show him what you have in stock, what have others paid and what did they get for it. Through out ideas he's never done this before ....

Nothing at all like that.

Selling an off-the-shelf product like a truck or a TV is completely different to spec'ing and completing a completely custom job.

The spec is almost a product in itself.

Ruairi@Kro

We don't usually do iPhone apps but we do custom software. The way we work on specs is that we give an approximate quote for the full solution including a definite quote for the specification. We then take a deposit to cover the spec. We work on the spec and when the client is happy we have three options - we continue the work at the original price, we revise our estimate, or the client decides to take the spec and go and get more quotes.

It is very unlikely any software company that is worth their salt will do the spec for free, and less likely they will give a quote without a spec. A spec for an iPhone app could very easily take longer to produce than the app itself. There is a whole other debate on why specs are required.

As for going outside Ireland - for iPhone app development it may be your best option. We outsource app development to a guy in Liverpool - PM me for his name. I have often looked for someone in Eire with no luck.

Liam Byrne

Ruairi@Kro wrote: »

I have often looked for someone in Eire with no luck.

Not surprised really - nobody calls it that.

Ruairi@Kro

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Not surprised really - nobody calls it that.

Funny man

Liam Byrne

Ruairi@Kro wrote: »

Funny man

Just stating a fact.

onedmc

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Nothing at all like that.

Selling an off-the-shelf product like a truck or a TV is completely different to spec'ing and completing a completely custom job.

The spec is almost a product in itself.

Of course creating a customised truck is differenct to a customised piece of software.

However if you have done a similar job before you can advise and guide the buyer, set their expectations and give them ballparks before you need to write the spec.

I used the truck example because its simple (it does need to be customised for pallets, food etc), software is more like an an architects building, the high value is in the design and QS. Before the architects drawings and the QS specifications you will always be shown similar work. Gives the architect a steer as to what the customer wants. And he'll come back with some ball parks and show you the components that will be expensive.

Again software is different to building but to re-iterate my opinion if you have done this before then you dont need to write the spec at this stage. You need to make the buyer comfortable with what they are going to embark on. Price expectation is a part of this.

Secondly there is not much difference between a sucessful vehicle sales person and a software sales person. Successful software sales people make the sale easy by not delving into the spec immediatly but by showing the customer the value.

stevenmu

Ruairi@Kro wrote: »

We don't usually do iPhone apps but we do custom software. The way we work on specs is that we give an approximate quote for the full solution including a definite quote for the specification. We then take a deposit to cover the spec. We work on the spec and when the client is happy we have three options - we continue the work at the original price, we revise our estimate, or the client decides to take the spec and go and get more quotes.

It is very unlikely any software company that is worth their salt will do the spec for free, and less likely they will give a quote without a spec. A spec for an iPhone app could very easily take longer to produce than the app itself. There is a whole other debate on why specs are required.

As for going outside Ireland - for iPhone app development it may be your best option. We outsource app development to a guy in Liverpool - PM me for his name. I have often looked for someone in Eire with no luck.

This is the way it should work IMO. I think the problem the OP is having is getting someone to come back with an approximate quote and plan for further work.

I think that providers engaging in custom development need to be willing to do some amount of work on spec to try and secure a sale. They need to be willing to put together an outline/draft solution document that would include a basic specification and cost estimate, a quote for a detailed specification and a plan on how to proceed. Someone who has expertise in developing apps should be able to have a relatively quick conversation with the OP, and from that know 90% of what will need to be done (unless it's a particularly complicated system). They should be able to adjust previous plans pretty simply to at least give a basic quote and idea of the process, at least enough to let the customer know if they want to proceed or not.

professore

onedmc wrote: »

Hmmm and thats like walking into a truck sales room and telling the sales person that I need transport for the company.

Only for the sales person to respond with, Well we need to find out exactly what you need and that takes time and I'll have to charge you for it.

You need to sell first then collect the money. He is just asking someone to sell to him, take him out on a test drive, show him what you have in stock, what have others paid and what did they get for it. Through out ideas he's never done this before ....

Only relevant if the sales guy had to design and build the trucks from scratch himself.

professore

stevenmu wrote: »

This is the way it should work IMO. I think the problem the OP is having is getting someone to come back with an approximate quote and plan for further work.

I think that providers engaging in custom development need to be willing to do some amount of work on spec to try and secure a sale. They need to be willing to put together an outline/draft solution document that would include a basic specification and cost estimate, a quote for a detailed specification and a plan on how to proceed. Someone who has expertise in developing apps should be able to have a relatively quick conversation with the OP, and from that know 90% of what will need to be done (unless it's a particularly complicated system). They should be able to adjust previous plans pretty simply to at least give a basic quote and idea of the process, at least enough to let the customer know if they want to proceed or not.

How many architects do that? What is to stop the company getting the detailed spec from the developer and then going off somewhere else with it?

The HARDEST PART of software development is getting the spec right.

I would look at something like this if the company (i.e. you guys) actually sat down yourselves and make out a document outlining what screens you want in the app, how they should work, and where the data is going to be stored. If you were building a house would you not do the same? It's impossible to give a precise price until you know pretty precisely what's involved. If you want a ballpark estimate you have to realise that the ballpark will be pretty big.

You also get the "and I forgot to mention" thing halfway through the project which can be as much work as the project itself.

professore

onedmc wrote: »

Of course creating a customised truck is differenct to a customised piece of software.

However if you have done a similar job before you can advise and guide the buyer, set their expectations and give them ballparks before you need to write the spec.

I used the truck example because its simple (it does need to be customised for pallets, food etc), software is more like an an architects building, the high value is in the design and QS. Before the architects drawings and the QS specifications you will always be shown similar work. Gives the architect a steer as to what the customer wants. And he'll come back with some ball parks and show you the components that will be expensive.

Again software is different to building but to re-iterate my opinion if you have done this before then you dont need to write the spec at this stage. You need to make the buyer comfortable with what they are going to embark on. Price expectation is a part of this.

Secondly there is not much difference between a sucessful vehicle sales person and a software sales person. Successful software sales people make the sale easy by not delving into the spec immediatly but by showing the customer the value.

I see your point to some extent though. Some customers expect something like this to cost €50 or €100 since that's what software costs they buy off the shelf. Also if it is something that's out there already like say a shopping cart it will (or should be) be a lot cheaper than something completely new.

stevenmu

professore wrote: »

How many architects do that? What is to stop the company getting the detailed spec from the developer and then going off somewhere else with it?

The HARDEST PART of software development is getting the spec right.

I would look at something like this if the company (i.e. you guys) actually sat down yourselves and make out a document outlining what screens you want in the app, how they should work, and where the data is going to be stored. If you were building a house would you not do the same? It's impossible to give a precise price until you know pretty precisely what's involved. If you want a ballpark estimate you have to realise that the ballpark will be pretty big.

You also get the "and I forgot to mention" thing halfway through the project which can be as much work as the project itself.

Well you do have to charge for doing the detailed spec, which would be included in your basic spec/solution.

Your basic spec also includes the assumptions you've made and limits roughly on what is/isn't included. You would also include or discuss the process of creating the detailed spec and how changes to the assumptions you've made would affect costs.

IMO I think it's unreasonable to expect a customer to commit to spending money without providing this much.

fasty

Agreed. There's a difference between a high level spec and a detailed functional and technical specs/schedule. Clients should pay for the latter, but not so much the former.

onedmc

professore wrote: »

I see your point to some extent though. Some customers expect something like this to cost €50 or €100 since that's QUOTE]

Yes we charge more than that per hour for development and our developers are in China.

It covers the fact that we put so much unpaid pre-sales work into projects.

dantastic

I realize I'm joining in a bit late here but I'm an iPhone/iPad developer so I've some experience with this. iOS developers all too often gets approached by people with a Great Idea that's going to be the Next Big Thing. Having an iPhone app is a bit like having a web page was 15 years ago. So a lot of people want an app but doesn't know what they want and aren't prepared to pay for it.

Which is why most iOS developers aren't returning your messages unless you have actually put in the work and know what you want already. This part is very simple though, if you would draw down on paper, roughly, each screen the app should have and just a short one-liner what each button should do. The app will most likely need to process some form of data, where is that coming from and where is it going to be saved to?

Many iPhone apps are small enough not to need a detailed functional spec The above mentioned document, if done right, would be enough. If the app is more involved and there will be features added incrementally then creating a detailed spec is obviously billable time.

iMax

OP back again. This has just been put on hold until we establish exactly what we want to do.. Thanks to everyone for their input & to all who PMd me, I'll be in contact when we do get our act together.

Ruairi@Kro

iMax wrote: »

OP back again. This has just been put on hold until we establish exactly what we want to do.. Thanks to everyone for their input & to all who PMd me, I'll be in contact when we do get our act together.

I'm genuinely not being smart but you have just proven the point of why companies don't do specs for free, and why they sometimes (although it is a bit rude) don't reply to emails that are fluffy on details. What if someone had gone and spent a few days doing a rough spec and proposal for you and you decided then to "establish exactly what you want to do". Would you pay the software company for the three days?

Again I'm being genuine and not a smart-arse but if we quoted for every email we get in the door we'd spend 40 hours a week writing proposals. For that reason we tend to have a stock reply for people emailing one paragraph from gmail/hotmail which is "please send much more detailed information and an overview of the system and we will quote". Admittedly if someone emails us from @bigcompany.com we might humour them and chase them a bit. It is kinda like the police - it's not discrimination it's profiling!!

Liam Byrne

onedmc wrote: »

Of course creating a customised truck is differenct to a customised piece of software.

However if you have done a similar job before you can advise and guide the buyer, set their expectations and give them ballparks before you need to write the spec.

How do you know that it's "similar" until the client manages to give you a reasonably detailed set of requirements?

Is it "similar" just because it's an iPhone app? Similar because it's a game (Flash v iPhone v PS3) ? Similar because it's a database-driven app ?

How can you tell ?

bobbytables

dantastic wrote: »

iOS developers all too often gets approached by people with a Great Idea that's going to be the Next Big Thing.

So do web app developers

This is a problem that needs solving, because the vast majority of people that are looking for developers to do work have never been in this position before, so don't realize that there is a gap between their idea and what's necessary to quote or base a development project. Don't get me started on non-functional requirements

I don't think that people who are looking for developers realize actually how many others are doing the same and that experienced developers are very much in demand.

I must admit, it is a luxury to work on a project where the client actually appreciates (in a timely manner) they have to pay for the range of skills that they need & do not possess themselves in order to get their desired result. It's funny that, but there is a culture that exists out there, derived from a general misconception that is to blame for projects that never take off. As soon as people get beyond this and accept the reality, the sooner they get what they want.

Anyone that I've ever known that went off in a huff because the reality offended them, never got very far in the end.