Piracy less harmfull than Gamestop?

folan

theres an interesting article by a dev from Fable3 (Mike West) on eurogamer

whats interesting is that while he does target pirates, he still makes the point that

"For us it's probably a no-lose even with piracy as it is," shrugged West. "But, as I say, second-hand sales cost us more in the long-run than piracy these days."

I try my best to buy second hand games these days, but at the same time, the prices of a new game really make that hard, especially back when i was in college and hardly had enough cash to eat for a month.

scum01

Yea i read somewhere that its a common complaint of developers and game studios.

What they're doing now is including activation codes in new titles that unlocks specific game content and can only be used once. So if you buy it second hand you cant get the full usability of the game! (that is unless you pay for your own activation code)

Personally i buy as many games 2nd hand as possible (unless its a title i cant wait for and they are very few and far between!) for the same reason that its just too expensive for new games! E60 for a new game or 2 second hand titles for that price? decision is easy!

Penn

Most new games are €50 these days, bar limited editions and the like. Then most 2nd hand games of newer titles are still around €35-€40 anyway for the first few months.

I prefer buying new to be honest. Admittedly, a lot of the time I buy new it might be with store credit after trading in games or dvds, but if I feel like I'm going to get my moneys worth, I'll normally buy new.

rizzla

I buy new whenever I can.

I always bring up the point. A second hand game must at first be bought new, so there is an initial sale with money going to the dev's. Whereas more often than not there is no initial sale with a pirated game.

Penn

rizzla wrote: »

I buy new whenever I can.

I always bring up the point. A second hand game must at first be bought new, so there is an initial sale with money going to the dev's. Whereas more often than not there is no initial sale with a pirated game.

But it's a lot easier and more commonplace to buy second hand than pirated

folan

plus a second hand game can be sold several times over the course of its life time. that initial sale is there but the remaining sales are as good to the dev as piracy.

Varik

rizzla wrote: »

I buy new whenever I can.

I always bring up the point. A second hand game must at first be bought new, so there is an initial sale with money going to the dev's. Whereas more often than not there is no initial sale with a pirated game.

Same as if you gave it to a friend or as a hand me down to some relative, but for used games their is money being exchanged that is not going to the devs or publishers.

RedXIV

and a second hand game could be sold 3 or 4 times.

Personally, If I can, I like to buy new, but not when games first come out. For example, I decided I really wanted FFXIII when it first came out and splashed out 60 quid on the collectors edition. Could pick the game up for less than 20 online now.

I've bought oodles of second hand games simply because they are priced <€10, very few new games will compare to that in price. Now, I've the patience to wait for the games to lose the new-ish shine before picking them up for less than half the original price

calex71

Hmmmm I do buy a fair few used games, but never anything that costs more than 5-15 euro. So to be that price the game has to be out a good while. I either pick up a game on release day or wait until I can pick it up cheap online / in a sale / it drops in price in HMV etc.

Any other company I would have a certain degree of sympathy for, but Lionshead can F right off, after even failing to acknowledge let alone patch the myriad of game breaking bugs brought into Fable 3 by the traitors keep dlc. They will never see another cent of my money. :mad:

They also seem to forget that in most cases people are trading games for new, which actually helps sales in a way.

Most new games cost in the region of €50+ when they are released in this country (on a recent trip to Portugal I was astounded to see that new games there were in the region of €60-€70). I would much rather wait to purchase the secondhand game for cheaper, than to wait for the new version to decrease in price, which sometimes could take months.

It just makes more sense for me financially, regardless of who gets the money - I'm making a saving.

rizzla

Barrington wrote: »

But it's a lot easier and more commonplace to buy second hand than pirated

Yes but every second hand game on the shelf was at one time a new game which generated something for the devs.

Varik wrote: »

Same as if you gave it to a friend or as a hand me down to some relative, but for used games their is money being exchanged that is not going to the devs or publishers.

As opposed to piracy, where when someone downloads a game nothing is going to the devs too.

folan

rizzla wrote: »

As opposed to piracy where an ISO can only be downloaded once?!?

I understand what you mean, but my point was actually that the purchase was there in the first place. the game being sold second hand several more times is about as useful to the devs as being pirated 7 times and bought once.

rizzla

Devs need the Gamestops though, they don't need piracy. The second hand market keeps the Gamestops ticking over, which gives the shelf space for the new games and the hardware. It's a vicious cycle. But Piracy is no way less harmful than Gamestop.

folan

rizzla wrote: »

Devs need the Gamestops though, they don't need piracy. The second hand market keeps the Gamestops ticking over, which gives the shelf space for the new games and the hardware. It's a vicious cycle. But Piracy is no way less harmful than Gamestop.

great point. one really is a necessary evil, the other is just stealing, though at a certain point they become almost the same.

its interesting to see how devs see it though. Ive spent a long time defending dlcs and the like for this reason, though its often counter productive for them (as Calex71 points out).

Jet Black

Three reasons I would buy new games.
If its coming from a dev I know has a good history. The likes of valve, considering the money is going back to making excellent quality games.
If its a game in a franchise like battlefield or cod where I know I'll get a decent amount of entertainment from it.
Or if theres a playbale demo so I can try before i buy, I can usually tell in a couple of minutes if a game will be worth buying. Apart from that I wait until I can get them second hand or cheaper.

Kintarō Hattori

Just price games fairly and that will go a long way to tackling the problem. Games costing €70 euro is insane. Also huge variations in price really don't encourage folk to buy the game- just have a look at Steam. The price differences there between currencies is shocking.

Piracy really does need to be tackled but trying to put a stop to the 2nd games market will only pee gamers off in the long run. The 2nd market has been around as long as gaming itself and is well established. A lot of my games are bought new but I do like to go into the shops for a browse and picking up something second hand and cheaply.

Perhaps the publishing companies could seek out a slice of the sale of a game second hand. In turn they could give the shops more exclusive content, work out some sort of loyalty programme. I don't know, it needs to be creative and I'm not the creative type!

Penn

What standard games are costing €70 though? Most games are €45-€55, usually €50. If you're paying €70, that's probably for limited editions, or games that come with a free item. But you don't have to buy that if you don't want to. I haven't seen a new standard issue game costing more than €55 in ages, and they're even cheaper online.

Kintarō Hattori

I don't go into the shops too often so perhaps my memory is a little hazy but I do seem to remember games easily costing €70 or thereabouts, perhaps that has been a while ago though.

RedXIV

COD:MW was 60-70 for ages as I recall?

collector's editions are one of the best tools in a Dev's arsenal against second-hand games. every now and again I'll see a collectors edition with something cool (MW2's night vision goggles come to mind ) and I'll have to get that new.

eco2live

Games are 45 to 55 new everywhere now. Good price for some but not for others. The amount of hours you get with COD, fighting games or football games is huge with online play.

I think what they should do is offer cheaper download versions of the games after a certain period. No resale value, no media etc. Just limit the user account to a maximum of say 2 consoles at a time. Each console has a unique hardware id.

Keep using the online codes that come free with the new versions and discounted download version. This would maximize the revenue going directly to the developer.

They need to compete with second hand games. This would address piracy and second hand sales to a certain extent. You will never wipe it out fully and a lot of people pirating games would not have bought them anyway so they always over estimate the losses. Same for films etc. Just because sombody would download a movie does not mean that they would have spent 20 quid to see it.

Jet Black

Haven't seen regular games for €70 since console launches. Have perfect dark zero and it was about €75 for it. MW2 was €60 in Irish stores. Picked it up a little cheaper online.
Some devs are giving extra content with new games and not charging extra. Thats another way to make people buy new, giving something for nothing.

Grumpypants

I was in world of wonders and they had games for €69.99 and not even brand new ones either stuff like Army of 2 that you can buy new in other shops for about 15 euro.

Developers are looking at the 2nd hand sales as sales lost, but they are ignoring the massive increase in new game sales thanks to people being able to trade in.

Just look at the LA Noire thread and see the amount of people opting for the 3 games 3 euro Gamestop deal. I know i used it to get brink last week, ill then trade in Brink to get LA Noire tomorrow. If that offer was not there i simply would not have bought Brink and just waited for LA Noire. Trading got the Brink developers an extra sale, but when my copy is sold they won't look at it as an extra sale to them it will be one potential sale lost, ignoring the fact that without the 2nd hand market they would not have gotten my sale in the first place.

It helps smaller developers as people are more likely to take a risk on smaller games.

marco_polo

Grumpypants wrote: »

I was in world of wonders and they had games for €69.99 and not even brand new ones either stuff like Army of 2 that you can buy new in other shops for about 15 euro.

Developers are looking at the 2nd hand sales as sales lost, but they are ignoring the massive increase in new game sales thanks to people being able to trade in.

Just look at the LA Noire thread and see the amount of people opting for the 3 games 3 euro Gamestop deal. I know i used it to get brink last week, ill then trade in Brink to get LA Noire tomorrow. If that offer was not there i simply would not have bought Brink and just waited for LA Noire. Trading got the Brink developers an extra sale, but when my copy is sold they won't look at it as an extra sale to them it will be one potential sale lost, ignoring the fact that without the 2nd hand market they would not have gotten my sale in the first place.

It helps smaller developers as people are more likely to take a risk on smaller games.

That is a valid point, but for every person with a purchasing pattern like you there is quite likely to be someone else who almost exclusively buys second hand games. Also in your scenario the Brink developer gets a new sale, but what about the developers of the three traded in games?

TheDoc

Hence why more and more games are required to be activated online to play through PSN or Xbox Live.

I'm not pushed either way, I don't buy alot of second hand games, I buy mostly brand new.

There has been plenty of noise recently across various articles of how Game devs and publishers are pretty much loosing heart seeing as how second hand game sales is a massive loss of potential earnings, whilst retailers are making their most profit from the second hand sales market.

I went into gamestop yesterday with a friend looking to trade in the new Fight Night Champaion, they offered him €18, it retails €50 new and the second hand price is €45

He asked why was he being ripped and the guy in store gave a pretty bollox excuse and then we left.

I dont genuinely know why anyone actually trades through gamestop...

Somewhere like Adverts.ie or Ebay would get your games better value..

I guess whilst people are uninformed, lazy and just ignorant we will continue to be ripped : /

And btw, Smyths, if you didnt know, has an offer now ( atleast in the airsode branch) when you buy a new game, you can return it within 10 days and get your money back less a fiver. So basically like renting. Its not a bad offer and then they put the game out second hand.

But atleast you get proper value back.

Re: the three games for three euro deal

That is an interesting but possibly irrelevant point. Yes, you are purchasing the game, but for €3, rather than the €49 you would have normally paid. While they are getting a new game sale, I can't imagine the devs making any money from it as such.

Unless Gamestop give the devs their usual share of when the game would have cost €49?

RedXIV

Deleted User wrote: »

Re: the three games for three euro deal

That is an interesting but possibly irrelevant point. Yes, you are purchasing the game, but for €3, rather than the €49 you would have normally paid. While they are getting a new game sale, I can't imagine the devs making any money from it as such.

Unless Gamestop give the devs their usual share of when the game would have cost €49?

Gamestop have to pay the correct price for the game to the publisher even if they sell it for €3. The revenue model is dependant on the fact that the 3 games you trade in will be worth more than the difference between the game you are buying RRP and €3

RedXIV

RedXIV wrote: »

Gamestop have to pay the correct price for the game to the publisher even if they sell it for €3. The revenue model is dependant on the fact that the 3 games you trade in will be worth more than the difference between the game you are buying RRP and €3

Thanks for clarifying that, I wasn't too sure if the publishers were getting the correct amount or not.

RedXIV

Deleted User wrote: »

Thanks for clarifying that, I wasn't too sure if the publishers were getting the correct amount or not.

Only know that from speaking to the Sony rep in store when I used to work for Nintendo

We were only allowed talk on breaks when our branded clothes weren't on show

Royale with Cheese

Have hardly ever bought any second hand games. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places but the prices never seem that competitive. It's usually only a little bit extra to buy it brand new.

cython

Royale with Cheese wrote: »

Have hardly ever bought any second hand games. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places but the prices never seem that competitive. It's usually only a little bit extra to buy it brand new.

Even funnier is when you go to pick up an older game, and the second hand one is actually more expensive than a brand new copy! Nearly encourages me to buy new games in other situations too if just because second hand would be rewarding that level of stupidity/pricing incompetence!

Kaneda_

I but mostly new games.If i see some older used titles cheap i usually snap them up ( recently got The Orange Box for a fiver in Xtra vision ).

I dont think used games a bad thing for the devs or the industry at all,used games have been around for as long as i can remember and still plenty of new titles and sequels are pumped out every year - so is it that big a problem for the industry?