AL Cadet programme

thecornflake

paulmcgrath wrote: »

Dear All,

I had been following the thread on Pprune Re: EI's Cadetship, albeit dead now a while, had i known about this place i wouldn't have wasted my precious time.

Well i have been called for an assessment/interview.

Firstly, i would like to wish all my fellow competitor's the very best of luck, sincerley .

Secondly i would like to say how much I enjoyed reading through this thread, even though it has strayed off course a little in the last few pages, .

Thirdly i would like to ask is does anyone know what the dress code is? It hasn't been mentioned in my invitation and it would be nice not to turn up in a suit while everyone else is casual.

Thanks for all the help guys.

paulmcgrath

I would wear the suit and if by the very odd chance nobody else does (I would find it very odd if that happened) than at least you could take the jacket and tie off to be somewhat casual.

Weissbier

kona wrote: »

In fairness to EI everybody who had a look at this part of boards knew weeks before that they were running the cadetship.
Id imagine most people who actually have a interest in aviation in ireland have flicked through this part of boards.
I find it very hard to believe that if your genuinely interested in flight, you didnt know about this. Even after they advertised it was in the paper, you had a few weeks to complete the application and aptitude tests.
I also remember a spar in town claiming the had thousands applying for breakfast roll maker, I wouldnt believe anything I read, there are plenty of jobs out there, the problem is people dont get off their hole and apply.

With all respect there are alot of people who don't even know that 'boards' even exists, there are others who don't have the time to follow these forum websites and there are those as pointed out by other posters on this particular thread that it is frequented by be-grudgers and sabators to upset the genuine few trying to get useful information from this thread.

And as an avid aviator I must respectfully disagree, the numbers speak for themselves, the comments from XWB on this matter and from his sources concerning the numbers would seem to back this up.

And as you have pointed out, advertising is key, even a Spar shop can attract more applicants.

On this matter I believe that there was a concerted effort by Aer Lingus this time to keep the numbers low to save on costs.

On the matter of plenty of jobs, your naivety is probably shinning through here and you sound like a politian. I'm sure the people in Waterford would disagree and the some-what circa 15% unemployed highly skilled people, some of which you might expect to work on your local Spar might also disagree with you. And on the matter of the jobs that are out there you may be a gasped to here that all those valuable Terms & Conditions, fought for by our parents ( and pilots an Aer Lingus leading to this cadetship) have now been but nullified.

paulmcgrath

thecornflake wrote: »

I would wear the suit and if by the very odd chance nobody else does (I would find it very odd if that happened) than at least you could take the jacket and tie off to be somewhat casual.

Perhaps. It is a group assessment so i would imagine we need to build something as a team.

Suit wouldn't be the most practical for these kind of roles. Slacks and a shirt might do the trick. Perhaps a jacket, to be on the safe side, like you mentioned.

kiwster

thecornflake wrote: »

I would wear the suit and if by the very odd chance nobody else does (I would find it very odd if that happened) than at least you could take the jacket and tie off to be somewhat casual.

I'm going to wear a suit too. I'd imagine most people will

kona

Weissbier wrote: »

With all respect there are alot of people who don't even know that 'boards' even exists, there are others who don't have the time to follow these forum websites and there are those as pointed out by other posters on this particular thread that it is frequented by be-grudgers and sabators to upset the genuine few trying to get useful information from this thread.

And as an avid aviator I must respectfully disagree, the numbers speak for themselves, the comments from XWB on this matter and from his sources concerning the numbers would seem to back this up.

And as you have pointed out, advertising is key, even a Spar shop can attract more applicants.

On this matter I believe that there was a concerted effort by Aer Lingus this time to keep the numbers low to save on costs.

On the matter of plenty of jobs, your naivety is probably shinning through here and you sound like a politian. I'm sure the people in Waterford would disagree and the some-what circa 15% unemployed highly skilled people, some of which you might expect to work on your local Spar might also disagree with you. And on the matter of the jobs that are out there you may be a gasped to here that all those valuable Terms & Conditions, fought for by our parents ( and pilots an Aer Lingus leading to this cadetship) have now been but nullified.

I disagree, It would be quite dumb for EI to Identify that they are screwed for pilots in the next few years, and quietly advertise, as I mentioned if your in the loop or have a interest in aviation, you would know. As for "High Skilled" people working in spar, Im not going into it as its not the place.

el tel

paulmcgrath wrote: »

Perhaps. It is a group assessment so i would imagine we need to build something as a team.

Suit wouldn't be the most practical for these kind of roles. Slacks and a shirt might do the trick. Perhaps a jacket, to be on the safe side, like you mentioned.

Jesus frikken H.!

I promised myself I wouldn't but...

One skill an applicant should demonstate is the ability to observe and to deduce certain information and make sound, informed decisions based on the observations. There will likely be a test of this in written format during your assessment.

As a wee practice test see if you can find the post in this thread in which it was clearly explained what should be worn and how not conforming to an acceptable dress code will end your chances of progressing.

Gat Dayum!

Deadline for accepting a time slot at the assessment centre passed at noon today so to everyone who didn't get an email in the first round, there could be people preparing an email for you right now! Very best of luck to you all!

Weissbier

kona wrote: »

I disagree, It would be quite dumb for EI to Identify that they are screwed for pilots in the next few years, and quietly advertise, as I mentioned if your in the loop or have a interest in aviation, you would know. As for "High Skilled" people working in spar, Im not going into it as its not the place.

I agree with some of your points, but none of the off thread points have been raised by me.

On the matter of Aer Lingus HR and management, what you must remember is it took many visits to the LRC and emergency Labour Court interventions to make the Aer Lingus management listen to the Aer Lingus Pilots that the Airline was understaffed, and only when threatened by strike by the Union did they listen. And from reading through all these threads and other opinions DE may have been more helpful in the short term. And in my view the cadetship should have been run more frequently with less pilots required each recruitment drive ensuring a high calibre of candidate each few years. Coupled with this, the continuos supply of cadets would cover natural attrition from either retirement and people moving to bigger airlines.

As I mentioned previously this advertisement drive was short, done at peak holiday time and done at a time to remove all of this years Leaving Cert candidates.

GoGoGadget

paulmcgrath wrote: »

Thirdly i would like to ask is does anyone know what the dress code is? It hasn't been mentioned in my invitation and it would be nice not to turn up in a suit while everyone else is casual.

Go with a suit big time. If anyone says you should go casual either they have cruel intentions to eliminate the competition or they'll be the ones standing out at the assessments!

And Paul what's this about becoming a pilot? I thought you had a promising singing career going...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCbwXqoJGuo

Tightwad

el tel wrote: »

For the assessment centre make sure you dress appropriately. When I did it one guy turned up to the group exercise in casual clothing and everyone else was in a suit or shirt and tie at least. The look on his face when he walked in...he was beat before he started.

El tel..I do recall a certain post of that nature . Why don’t people read before they type?

Yes, one has to ask ones self if this is a formal or casual occasion. It’s not something i class as a casual gathering so a straightforward suit and tie will be my attire.

Weissbier wrote: »

With all respect there are alot of people who don't even know that 'boards' even exists, there are others who don't have the time to follow these forum websites and there are those as pointed out by other posters on this particular thread that it is frequented by be-grudgers and sabators to upset the genuine few trying to get useful information from this thread.

And as an avid aviator I must respectfully bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla

Weisser--Your previous posts suggest you didn’t even manage to apply; maybe you should get over it. Are you saying its Aer Lingus' fault that you didn’t apply? You sound like one of these "be-grudgers" getting it the way of the thread progression. What are you rattling on about? Your on my ignore list. All the best.

XWB

paulmcgrath wrote: »

Perhaps. It is a group assessment so i would imagine we need to build something as a team.

Suit wouldn't be the most practical for these kind of roles. Slacks and a shirt might do the trick. Perhaps a jacket, to be on the safe side, like you mentioned.

For the love of Jesus Christ up on the cross giving himself up for the world.....

Part of what Aer Lingus want to see is what you do to make yourself look acceptable...remember that if you are picked you will wear a suit everyday to work..and a tie..and a hat, so they want to see how you look in a suit and how you conduct and assemble said suit..so no ties around your chest or loose fitting etc.

How you dress tells more about you than you'd think!

Weissbier

Tightwad wrote: »

Weisser--Your previous posts suggest you didn’t even manage to apply; maybe you should get over it. Are you saying its Aer Lingus' fault that you didn’t apply? You sound like one of these "be-grudgers" getting it the way of the thread progression. What are you rattling on about? Your on my ignore list. All the best.

Full marks to you. You are right I did not apply, however your assumptions are well off the mark. And for info I need not get over it as I would not have applied as I'm above the golden 26 age limit of old cadetships (due to current ageism laws, they are not allowed to put in place an upper age) and to agree with another poster XWB (I think) would now be pushed to 30 now, I chose not to apply.

Also as I have a family to think of and as pointed out by XWB to a previous poster, I too must take this into consideration before applying. And as a family man I must therefore take this into consideration as I cannot afford the pay cut to a cadets wage. I'm merely pointing out the obvious and re-iterating what others have said.

If you actually read my posts and not glossed over them, you will that there are many valid points re-inforced by many previous posts and posters. Also if you are having difficulties following some of the posts by me and others, all I can say is the very best of luck with your application, you probably need it!

The main points of my previous posts are related to why there were so little applicants, etc. as raised by other posters.

Weissbier

XWB wrote: »

paulmcgrath wrote: »

Perhaps. It is a group assessment so i would imagine we need to build something as a team.

Suit wouldn't be the most practical for these kind of roles. Slacks and a shirt might do the trick. Perhaps a jacket, to be on the safe side, like you mentioned.

For the love of Jesus Christ up on the cross giving himself up for the world.....

Part of what Aer Lingus want to see is what you do to make yourself look acceptable...remember that if you are picked you will wear a suit everyday to work..and a tie..and a hat, so they want to see how you look in a suit and how you conduct and assemble said suit..so no ties around your chest or loose fitting etc.

How you dress tells more about you than you'd think![/Quote



I agree with XWB, remember this, Being under dressed is far more noticeable than being over dressed and all for the wrong reasons. Remember a suit is comprised of normal attire trousers, shirt, and jacket; the tie being the formal bit to tie (no pun intended) to pull it all together. Just think how much effort you put into how you look before going out on the pull for the ladies!!

There's little different here you are still trying to impress but in a more formal environment. Anyone telling you to wear slacks is trying to remove some of the competition. If the jacket is too much for you, you can always remove it during the exercise, if you have ever noticed the boys and gals outside the cockpit always look well dressed, etc., but it's far more casual and comfortable in the cockpit.

searescue

Weissbier wrote: »

XWB wrote: »

For the love of Jesus Christ up on the cross giving himself up for the world.....

:pac: First laugh I've had on this thread in a while!!

XWB

Weissbier wrote: »

Also as I have a family to think of and as pointed out by XWB to a previous poster, I too must take this into consideration before applying. And as a family man I must therefore take this into consideration as I cannot afford the pay cut to a cadets wage. I'm merely pointing out the obvious and re-iterating what others have said.

.

That is a valid point and I think a lot of people need to consider it. If we look at it this way and assume it is 75% cadet funded..that is reasonably close to where I'd say it will be.

Cadet wage will be in the region of 30k in the 1st 5 years.

Your bond of 25k or so for TR will be owed to Aer Lingus and I would imagine that will be paid in full in those 5 years. So we are looking at about 25k a year after that. Take out your loan repayments of the 75k structured over 20 years at 2% interest per year(a guy I know wanted an FTE loan and was asked for 2% interest). That averages another 5000-5500 a year. So now your basic wage is about 20k...and then the tax man has a go at you! And all in all the way things are now you could end up earning 17k a year. That actually means that the poor souls in Ryanair earn more than you as they earn 28k a year and dodge tax as self employed contractor's from Brookfield.

If you have kids or commitments or morgages or someone blackmailing you you really need to consider if you can stretch 17-20k enough to cover your costs.

That isnt even considering the fact the wife may tell you to stick it if she has a stable job here and you have to move to Gatwick or Belfast...and even if she does move if you have kids they may have to move school.

Think carefully about this before you are in up your to your neck!!

happy_head

XWB, i have been watching this thread for a while now and absolutely love reading your posts, and you are without a doubt a valuable poster to all of us interested in becoming a pilot. There is nothing better than getting advice from someone who has been there done that.

However, you are still only speculating as to the T&C's of the cadetship and it could be putting people off. I know you always mention that its your opinion or your guessing, but i think it would be more beneficial for everyone on the thread if people (not just you) stopped guessing and speculating. We will all find out the details on due time and that will be when people may have some tough decisions to make.

Again, im not trying to have a go at you and i still come on here hoping you have posted, its just the speculating in putting a downer on the whole thing.

XWB

happy_head wrote: »

XWB, i have been watching this thread for a while now and absolutely love reading your posts, and you are without a doubt a valuable poster to all of us interested in becoming a pilot. There is nothing better than getting advice from someone who has been there done that.

However, you are still only speculating as to the T&C's of the cadetship and it could be putting people off. I know you always mention that its your opinion or your guessing, but i think it would be more beneficial for everyone on the thread if people (not just you) stopped guessing and speculating. We will all find out the details on due time and that will be when people may have some tough decisions to make.

Again, im not trying to have a go at you and i still come on here hoping you have posted, its just the speculating in putting a downer on the whole thing.

No no I agree 100%.

However the pay isse for cadets is consistant over time..and 30k is the max you will earn as a gross salary. That is something you can be sure of!

The bond is always paid from the 1st contract time frame too. Another thing you can be sure of.

Beyond that we enter the realms of speculation...but I would be 90% sure what I have in my last post is fairly close to reality from what I have gathered.

happy_head

XWB wrote: »

No no I agree 100%.

However the pay isse for cadets is consistant over time..and 30k is the max you will earn as a gross salary. That is something you can be sure of!

The bond is always paid from the 1st contract time frame too. Another thing you can be sure of.

Beyond that we enter the realms of speculation...but I would be 90% sure what I have in my last post is fairly close to reality from what I have gathered.

It was the salary bit that i thought you were off the mark on. I reckon you close enough with the other bits like the 75% and all, but i had been reading up on the salary and i found this http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Aer_Lingus_(ROI_Contract) it mention cadet salary for two years being 41k.

But if you are so sure its 30k i tend to believe you as your the one in the know. But is it a case this website is wrong or am i reading it arse-ways? If it is in the region of 30k i would have some serious head scratching to do if i was lucky enough to get it. Reality is, im still waiting (and slowly giving up hope) for this email to come through

XWB

happy_head wrote: »

It was the salary bit that i thought you were off the mark on. I reckon you close enough with the other bits like the 75% and all, but i had been reading up on the salary and i found this http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Aer_Lingus_(ROI_Contract) it mention cadet salary for two years being 41k.

But if you are so sure its 30k i tend to believe you as your the one in the know. But is it a case this website is wrong or am i reading it arse-ways? If it is in the region of 30k i would have some serious head scratching to do if i was lucky enough to get it. Reality is, im still waiting (and slowly giving up hope) for this email to come through

That website is rarely updated. Lot of people have quoted that before. They look like the scales that were in around 2006(although it curiously states last update was dec 1969...) or so. I'd have to dig out my paycheques to know!

Oh wait I had a look at that again. It says FO Base is 41k. That isnt Cadet. FO base is a 1st officer on the line who came in through DE. Cadets generally need to have unfrozen their ATPL before they earn that sort of scale. FO base could refer to someone who came in from another airline or who came in from flight school!

happy_head

XWB wrote: »

That website is rarely updated. Lot of people have quoted that before. They look like the scales that were in around 2006(although it curiously states last update was dec 1969...) or so. I'd have to dig out my paycheques to know!

Says it was updated 14 of May this year. Do you think the EI cadets will get the same pay as the recent DE first officers that still have their ATPL frozen?

happy_head

happy_head wrote: »

Says it was updated 14 of May this year. Do you think the EI cadets will get the same pay as the recent DE first officers that still have their ATPL frozen?

Ps. I realise the irony of me now asking you to speculate

happy_head

It says FO base is €54,700

kiwster

XWB wrote: »

That website is rarely updated. Lot of people have quoted that before. They look like the scales that were in around 2006(although it curiously states last update was dec 1969...) or so. I'd have to dig out my paycheques to know!

Oh wait I had a look at that again. It says FO Base is 41k. That isnt Cadet. FO base is a 1st officer on the line who came in through DE. Cadets generally need to have unfrozen their ATPL before they earn that sort of scale. FO base could refer to someone who came in from another airline or who came in from flight school!

Could someone explain what exactly a frozen/unfrozen ATPL is. What does it take to get it unfrozen after flight training?

Also, if Aer Lingus wants to be serious about hiring and maintaining good pilots, wouldn't they be better to go down a similar route to BA in terms of pay and how the bond is paid back? BA future pilot states starting salary of 55k (GBP) and the bond is paid back separately.

happy_head

kiwster wrote: »

Could someone explain what exactly a frozen/unfrozen ATPL is. What does it take to get it unfrozen after flight training?

Also, if Aer Lingus wants to be serious about hiring and maintaining good pilots, wouldn't they be better to go down a similar route to BA in terms of pay and how the bond is paid back? BA future pilot states starting salary of 55k (GBP) and the bond is paid back separately.

An ATPL is frozen until you have gained 1500TT hours (i think)

MoeJay

The ppjn figures are not too far off reality at all. XWB's gross figure of 30k is a pure guess (and not particularly realistic.)

However, what the starting salary will be, is a very good question to ask if you get called for interview, because then, and only then, will you have up-to-date, accurate information.

foxtrot hotel

Never, trust PPJN.
Anyone who has an email has the ability to sign up to PPJN and modify said figures on said airline.

Some spotter most likely came up with the 41K figure.

A good income for cadet entry pilots I'd say would be about €1800-€2200 take home each month after tax.

XWB

MoeJay wrote: »

The ppjn figures are not too far off reality at all. XWB's gross figure of 30k is a pure guess (and not particularly realistic.)

However, what the starting salary will be, is a very good question to ask if you get called for interview, because then, and only then, will you have up-to-date, accurate information.

Well my brother in law is in accounting in Aer Lingus and I was out for pints tonight and as we are talking about it here I slipped the question in. He said that he had seen all the figures for training estimates etc...but he expects that they will earn similer to the Ryanair base pay.(28k).
Also the 100k figure covers your training only and not the TR. So you will be in the red for more than 100k.

Let me tell you now. When I was in year one on the line I lost 25% of my wage per year to pay off the bond...and that was all I had to pay...I had no loan to pay off either....and I hadnt met the ball and chain yet...but I was still struggling to make end meet.

I would imagine them to take more now given the current ejecter seat culture in the airline.So 25% of 28k is 7k..so we're down to 21k...then your loan repayment..and then tax.
It will actually be worse than Ryanair on those figures...because they dont really pay tax there..

John_Mc

If what you say is true then it's actualy a terrible situation for anyone to put themselves in.

As an aviation lover myself, I can understand the urge to want to get into the RHS, but I'd question a persons decision making capability if they voluntarily put themselves into that much debt and risk, for that kind of reward.

XWB

John_Mc wrote: »

If what you say is true then it's actualy a terrible situation for anyone to put themselves in.

As an aviation lover myself, I can understand the urge to want to get into the RHS, but I'd question a persons decision making capability if they voluntarily put themselves into that much debt and risk, for that kind of reward.

Ryanair have done this for years and flourished. It stands to reason that Aer Lingus would follow a sucessful model....

Gat Dayum!

Hey all,

Any more emails go out last night?