AL Cadet programme

XWB

thecornflake wrote: »

Captain stood before the ~20 applicants there and said 50/50.

Proof for the school that you have the ~50,000 would be needed upfront however the payments should be made periodically throughout the course.

Personally i don't think they even know how it'll be going down in the end.

Well I believe that they have no idea what is really going to happen in the end.
But 50/50 would be not smart for the company and would actually not be good for the cadet..as their bond would be savage!

LOccitane

XWB wrote: »

Yes that is all great but all the money Aer Lingus has is being used within the company to some purpose!
A profit of 300 million may well be what Aer Lingus must post to meet requirements from shareholders, crediters etc. A profit of 298 million may well fall short of that and breach pre-agreed financial caps or agreements.

Aer Lingus has a lot of debt to service at present and it is possible that a small cog in the machine such as 2 million being taken out would cause the whole machine to grind to a halt!
The crux of the matter is what goes on the balance sheet and shows up in the accounts. No matter how small a figure it is Aer Lingus may not be able to present an account that is short of a certain profit margin and the way things are Aer Lingus has just about managed to cost cut enough to slip in under that debt/profit margin.

What I was told is that basically the financiers of Aer Lingus would not sanction any hiring of their debt/liability margin and so that was a shot through the balloon.

With full respect for your knowledge XWB, you are mistaken on this point.

Tenger has already pointed out comprehensively, that Aer Lingus has unrestricted, Net Cash at Bank of in excess of EUR 300 Million.

This is nothing to do with Profit calculations or otherwise - this is quite simply, dry cash on reserve for which there are no obligations or future outflows booked against.

As you know, a significant component of this cash is related to the inflows from the initial listing some years ago now. The debt that has to be serviced is included in the Gross cash at Bank figure, but is specifically excluded from the Net Cash at Bank figure, in excess of EUR 300 Million as outlined in the latest Aer Lingus Financial Statements.

Even going beyond pure cash - there are several intangible assets not listed on the Aer Lingus SOFP and yet the total Net Assets as per June 2011 are stated at EUR 749 Million. To guarantee EUR 2 Million would be something readily achieveable for Aer Lingus.

The real reasoning, in my opinion at least - is obviously because the company does not want to provide such security - as the downside risk is obviously an onerous obligation should the Cadets pull out.

LOccitane

sdanseo

We were told 50% funded too.

Didin't say whether that would include the TR but I'm assuming that's all in house. They have the simulator and training facilities at DUB.

happy_head

XWB wrote: »

And pigs will fly. If Aer Lingus were going to fund 50k out of their pocket they would have sent everyone to NFC and saved some cash for the cadet. 25% is the very most they would stretch to.

I think im going to believe the couple of posters who have got the word straight from the horses mouth, rather than believe your guesses anymore. Your posts started out great and informative, but lately some of them have become complete trash with no backing, and as a previous poster said, its seems you may be disgruntled as this all changed around the time the first batch of emails were sent out. Seems you had a personal interest in the cadetship.

Railjon

I think that we should all lay off each others' backs, XWB in particular. While he may be proved wrong, the vast majority of information he has provided in the last 80 pages (:eek:) has been helpful to those who have been successful and unsuccessful. People seem to think that he doesn't have 'an interest'. So what? Just ignore him if that is so. Personally I don't think that he could have any benefit in typing what he has. You'll go to the Radisson to find out for yourself.

I am surprised (but nonetheless pleased) to hear about this 50/50 figure. I feel a little de ja vu but remember the concept of Aer Lingus even running a cadetship surprised most in the industry so trying to put a probable number on the amount of sponsorship is a bit like predicting the Irish weather.

happy_head

Railjon wrote: »

I think that we should all lay off each others' backs, XWB in particular. While he may be proved wrong, the vast majority of information he has provided in the last 80 pages (:eek:) has been helpful to those who have been successful and unsuccessful. People seem to think that he doesn't have 'an interest'. So what? Just ignore him if that is so. Personally I don't think that he could have any benefit in typing what he has. You'll go to the Radisson to find out for yourself.

I wish i was going to the Radisson

I agree, he has helped many many people here, but lately his information has been based on guesswork and "the way it used to be"

And then he makes a sarcastic remark about pigs flying when someone comes out with FACTUAL information they got straight from EI. I dont expect him to know everything, but he shouldnt pretend he does.

yaeger

QUOTE
"And then he makes a sarcastic remark about pigs flying when someone comes out with FACTUAL information they got straight from EI. I dont expect him to know everything, but he shouldnt pretend he does. "

O Me thinks the crusty ol codger that is XWB ( XL-WAIST-BAND) is just demonstrating classically the hidden rule ! ONE must maintain one's arrogance at all times, no doubt XWB knows where that originated! :-)

Jokes XWB you have ctrl.

Kunny

happy_head wrote: »

I agree, he has helped many many people here, but lately his information has been based on guesswork and "the way it used to be"

I think the term is "back in the day"

XWB has provided great information on this post in general but of course some of his posts have been speculation too. Some of this I assume is the nature of the piloting type - the following joke often told by pilots is an indicator of what I am talking about:

Joke - If you are talking to a pilot for the first time how will you know they are a pilot?
Answer: They will TELL YOU!

happy_head

Kunny wrote: »

I think the term is "back in the day"

No the term i was looking for was "the way it used to be", XWB and others are speculating about the T's & C's of this cadetship on the basis of the old cadetship, Because "that was the way it used to be"

XWB

Railjon wrote: »

I am surprised (but nonetheless pleased) to hear about this 50/50 figure. I feel a little de ja vu but remember the concept of Aer Lingus even running a cadetship surprised most in the industry so trying to put a probable number on the amount of sponsorship is a bit like predicting the Irish weather.

I will not give out my sources. But if you were to meet them....you would not question them...thats all I'll say on the matter and we shall leave that sub-topic there.

If you think about the 50/50 issue if that is the case, it is actually worse than a 75/25 split. Because you have 50k from a bank lovely! Then you have a bond of 50k. In truth you want your bond to be the least amount possible. If they dole out 5 year contracts as seems to be the suggestion then in keeping with the latest DE TR bonding etc they will want as much of the 50k they can claw back in the 5 years.
So the cadet(or FO as he is then) will have a bank loan to pay off to whoever plus large bond deductions being taken from Aer Lingus. I would be a little surprised if they took 10k a year, but who knows...given the problems with outflow over the past few years that may well be the case.

Let me warn you that these stirring speeches at interviews and assesments are well thought out(and anyone who's been to the PTC open day will know this). They are trying to pull at your dreams and get you in. They are in a way hoping that if they stoke your fire they can get a little off...ie stoke it so much that your brain disengages and you sign a fairly average contract. That is how PTC do business and it is how alot of the FTOs do it now.
If it was 1973 again and this is what was before me I would be looking for a cast iron guarantee on a ball park wage and how the bond will work and then weigh that against loan repayments to AIB, BOI or whoever. Because let me tell you..a year or so in the shine comes off it all and it gets a little bit mundane...and when that happens you dont want to look at your situation and realise that this is less of a dream and more of a nightmare.

I offer that as advice and not instruction. You are all adults and capable of making your own minds up. However as someone who has been there and done that I will tell you to just keep your dreams aside until you know EXACTLY what the score is with all this...dont let idealism ruin your prospects!

happy_head

XWB what would EI gain from lying about the finances?? Applicants are going to have find out at some stage, so why would they lie?

XWB

happy_head wrote: »

XWB what would EI gain from lying about the finances?? Applicants are going to have find out at some stage, so why would they lie?

Because once you sign a contract then your "ass is their's"

Plus they may well say "take it or leave it" at whatever conditions they lay out.

Besides what they and most companies do is just say nothing and they cant be accused of lying.

My bond(I worked it out a few years ago) was about 70-80k(modern money) including TR. My contract was basically to be start as FO and to become a captain so that's a 10-12 year contract in effect. So I lost 6500 a year to the bond on average. We were told that this contract was basically the peice of paper that laid out the bond conditions etc.
With that in mind when I see a 5 year contract I amongst others would be assuming that they are trying to claw the bond back in those 5 years.

They may not lie at all. They may be very open about it and have it all upfront. All I'm saying is that people shouldnt blindly follow a dream and end up in a nightmare. Look before you leap.

happy_head

XWB wrote: »

Because once you sign a contract then your "ass is their's"

Plus they may well say "take it or leave it" at whatever conditions they lay out.

Besides what they and most companies do is just say nothing and they cant be accused of lying.

My bond(I worked it out a few years ago) was about 70-80k(modern money) including TR. My contract was basically to be start as FO and to become a captain so that's a 10-12 year contract in effect. So I lost 6500 a year to the bond on average. We were told that this contract was basically the peice of paper that laid out the bond conditions etc.
With that in mind when I see a 5 year contract I amongst others would be assuming that they are trying to claw the bond back in those 5 years.

They may not lie at all. They may be very open about it and have it all upfront. All I'm saying is that people shouldnt blindly follow a dream and end up in a nightmare. Look before you leap.

But why would they be saying 50/50 at the Radisson, if in fact what you say is true and its actually 75/25? Like you said they could turn around and say you pay 100% take it or leave it.... And the thing is there probably would be "Nigel's" that take it!

I tend to believe the figure given out by EI in the Radisson as i really cant see any point of the misleading you.

I hope the successful few do take your advice and dont go in blindly because its their dream.

XWB

happy_head wrote: »

But why would they be saying 50/50 at the Radisson, if in fact what you say is true and its actually 75/25? Like you said they could turn around and say you pay 100% take it or leave it.... And the thing is there probably would be "Nigel's" that take it!

I tend to believe the figure given out by EI in the Radisson as i really cant see any point of the misleading you.

I hope the successful few do take your advice and dont go in blindly because its their dream.

Oh no you misunderstand me. I was told 75/25...that maye have changed. But I am going on the 50/50 quoted at interviews in what I said.

I was making the point that your 1st contract is always usually for your bond period. The DE guys in november got them and it has been the case since god was a boy. I was also making the point that a 25k bond over 5 years was better than a 50k one. In fact I'd rather come up with 75% myself than be bonded for 50% over 5 years. Because the bank will structure that 75k a lot less painfully that Aer Lingus would structure the 50k.

You may get 75k over 15 years from a bank. And that beats 50k over 5 years from Aer Lingus.

Railjon

But he's not misleading anyone, he's warning people of the pitfalls of modern aviation contractual obligations. Not disputing the 50/50 but rather pointing out there will be a harsh bond or other drop in terms and conditions.

As a point, Aer Lingus could say 'we will offer an extremely competitive 50% sponsorship', and people will bite their hand off to sign at the dotted line, not thinking about the drop in salary due to a bond or Aer Lingus getting their money back etc. etc.

What XWB is saying cannot have a negative impact on any candidates application as people have been told yes or no to the Radisson. When people, myself included, hear it in person, we'll make our own decisions. Those who use the information wisely will be successful, those who don't won't.

happy_head

XWB wrote: »

Oh no you misunderstand me. I was told 75/25...that maye have changed. But I am going on the 50/50 quoted at interviews in what I said.

I was making the point that your 1st contract is always usually for your bond period. The DE guys in november got them and it has been the case since god was a boy. I was also making the point that a 25k bond over 5 years was better than a 50k one. In fact I'd rather come up with 75% myself than be bonded for 50% over 5 years. Because the bank will structure that 75k a lot less painfully that Aer Lingus would structure the 50k.

You may get 75k over 15 years from a bank. And that beats 50k over 5 years from Aer Lingus.

Oh! ok im with ya now sorry! But getting 75k from a bank is not gonna be easy for the average joe soap, unless you use family assets which i would be wary of. Im thinking of going the modular route, which at this time, seems a lot less stressfull.

puppetmaster

Ok so most of this thread is complete speculation, and contradictory speculation at that. But on those lines. If its 50/50 its not really sponsorship is it. Its a 50% interest free loan from Aerlingus. Technically Aerlingus will pay nothing and the "cadet" will pay all of the costs eventually.

Now its a bit silly really in the spirit of a cadetship for it to work this way. especially if empoyment isnt garunteed. But i couldnt see any commercial company doing any different. But it would make a difference if that 50% that Aerlingus pays up front is retracted from your salary Gross. Eg if the offer a 45k contract (number is for arguments sake) and they take 10k off that contract yearly for five years. Leaving a net/gross of 35k to be paid. This would be quite benificial where Tax is concerned, Considering near 50% of that 10k would be taken in tax yearly. Thus leaving the cadet circa 25k up on getting that money from the bank and realistically 35k up when interest is included.

XWB

happy_head wrote: »

Oh! ok im with ya now sorry! But getting 75k from a bank is not gonna be easy for the average joe soap, unless you use family assets which i would be wary of. Im thinking of going the modular route, which at this time, seems a lot less stressfull.

Either is 50k to be fair....

I know a couple who both earn good money high up in a large multi-national based near where I live...sent a morgage broker out to get themselves a 5k loan for some work on their house...not a sausage to be had!
And they earn 200k+ together and dont have a morgage! To be honest I think your average joe soap has more working captital than a lot of european banks at this stage!

kona

Could you get tax relief on the balance to be paid?

XWB

kona wrote: »

Could you get tax relief on the balance to be paid?

That would depend how crafty you are!;)

You could write it off as a training expense...although you arnt self employed so that may not wash..

Aero Kid

Hey guys, I have been reading this thread for a while now. There has been alot of great info but people really just need to take all this with a pinch of salt until you have been to the third stage and heard it from AL and only from them. It's pretty pathetic reading people's posts and then immediatley getting on the posters case as they have no hard evidence. Just like pprune, bare in mind what people are saying but don't assume it's correct until you hear it from the people directly involved with the scheme.

I got through to stage 3 but I'm currently in 3rd year of my Aero Eng degree. I applied primarily for the experience but if I get to the further stages I'll see how things go. At 19 I think it would be a wise idea to get a degree under me and therefore have a wide range of back-up careers if flying doesn't pan out in general. Depending on what AL are offering financially, I may be inclined to pursue flying earlier than planned. Let's see how stage 3 goes. Best of luck to the people still to go. I'm on the last day of assessments.

dubberdo

JustbytheBook wrote: »

Hi Everybody! That's my first post. This topic could be only 20 pages. I'm not joking, I was reading my arse off for days. I went through to stage 3 as well, by the way.

To XWB about getting a loan: My Slovak friend got a loan in march (5,5k) and he has no credit history at all and he is on minimum wage! So we could get surprised how banks can rate us nowadays. Recession is over for the banks since ages. The "lack of cash" days are over too.

In my opinion, take any money for cadetship is not a good idea. Even if they don't want to invest 2m for 20 cadets, they can find investors, whatever... Not a big deal, considering the benefits. 20 "perfect" cadet, with the highest standards what they could figure out (as tough selection precess as they want), tie them to the company as long as they want and reduce the standards of employment to a reasonable level. Nobody want slaves, they want to run the bussiness on a LEAN way.

This cadetship can be a new future for Aer Lingus with minimum investment to get the particular people for less than before. Just the money what you can save on the new, lower wages is considerable! I'm not sure if they want to follow the BA example. But I believe the 50/50 as well what some of you quoted above, I just... It's a pity!

Tell me if I'm wrong, I don't run a bussiness myself (that's why I'm here).

You're obviously from Eastern Europe yourself are you? If you do get loans from the bank they will need security, that's a given. I assume because it would be a career progression loan it may be easier to get than a mortgage because you will have a letter of acceptance from Aer Lingus with a decent chance of employment. If it were 50/50 as is being speculated, you're only looking at taking out the equivalant of a few car loans with deferred interest payments. I'd take the chance if I were a bank manager. You'll probably be the only such person to enter my bank afterall... Not a lot to lose really and I'd have your security to fall back on.

Until you have final details and you meet with your financial/bank adviser there's no point in speculation... If you did get into EI at this time and needed a loan it may be the best time to do it really with ECB rates expected to come down next year due to fears over a double dip and you'd have a somewhat better chance than most of employment in the airline industry.

XWB

dubberdo wrote: »

You're obviously from Eastern Europe yourself are you? If you do get loans from the bank they will need security, that's a given. I assume because it would be a career progression loan it may be easier to get than a mortgage because you will have a letter of acceptance from Aer Lingus with a decent chance of employment. If it were 50/50 as is being speculated, you're only looking at taking out the equivalant of a few car loans with deferred interest payments. I'd take the chance if I were a bank manager. You'll probably be the only such person to enter my bank afterall... Not a lot to lose really and I'd have your security to fall back on.

Until you have final details and you meet with your financial/bank adviser there's no point in speculation... If you did get into EI at this time and needed a loan it may be the best time to do it really with ECB rates expected to come down next year due to fears over a double dip and you'd have a somewhat better chance than most of employment in the airline industry.

But the specific airline would be the issue. The bank may not be 100% sure of where Aer Lingus will be in a year. If the govt put their share on sale then who knows who would buy it. I mean imagine a bank invested 50k in you and O'Leary snatched the govt shares and cut you off in favour of his current DE flow....that is a scary prospect for any bank. Or even if you were not cut off your wage would be less.

Ryan J

Hi Aero Kid, you mention in your post that you are through to stage 3 of the process, have you been to the assessments at the Radisson yet?

What is stage 3, and were the same eight tests used at the assessment centre?

What was the age range of candidates?

How many candidates were at the assessments?

Was there any mention of what funding the cadet will have to pay and the structure of the course?

Thanks

dubberdo

XWB wrote: »

But the specific airline would be the issue. The bank may not be 100% sure of where Aer Lingus will be in a year. If the govt put their share on sale then who knows who would buy it. I mean imagine a bank invested 50k in you and O'Leary snatched the govt shares and cut you off in favour of his current DE flow....that is a scary prospect for any bank. Or even if you were not cut off your wage would be less.

I think you may be crossing the line of scaremongering now. Ryanair have been told by the competition authority that they cannot take a majority ownership of Aer Lingus at European level. The Office of Fair Trading is even investigating in Britain! Not likely...

Even if there was a sale by the government, it won't be a flotation Eircom style. The majority share would somehow be transferred to a strategic player with an interest in the market, not some capitalist vulture that would asset strip. I don't think the government are that foolish.

The only worrying development is the world recession continuing. You may be put in the hold but I'd put my money on you if I were a bank manager...

To say the wage would be less is definitely scaremongering. You have suggested the net wage could be as little as a part time burger flipper anyways. How low can you go??? At this rate, according to you, we'll be paying to work next week...

Aero Kid

Ryan J wrote: »

Hi Aero Kid, you mention in your post that you are through to stage 3 of the process, have you been to the assessments at the Radisson yet?

What is stage 3, and were the same eight tests used at the assessment centre?

What was the age range of candidates?

How many candidates were at the assessments?

Was there any mention of what funding the cadet will have to pay and the structure of the course?

Thanks

Hey mate. I cannot answer those questions as I haven't been yet. my date is mid-October. In previous posts there is some info kicking about about regarding the assessment day. Just have a little read through some of the previous posts.
As everyday passes I just want to quit uni and start flying, it's getting so hard now! Haha!

xflyer

At this rate, according to you, we'll be paying to work next week...

That already happens, pilots buying a place in right seat in airlines for the experience.

Ryanair don't employ many of the pilots flying their aircraft, they pay for their own rating, uniform, medical etc. They don't get paid for the first few weeks on the line and they only get paid when they fly, no such thing as a pension, sick leave or anything like that.

Then there's this Aer Lingus cadetship. They select you after a very competitive interviews and tests and then you pay for all the training.

Isn't that paying to get a job?

You can also be sure that the initial salary and terms and conditions will be 'competitive' as in it will nearer the bottom than the top of the scale. Probably not far off the Ryanair rates. Aer Lingus cannot afford it to be otherwise. This isn't speculation, that's the reality in the current economic climate.

It's not scaremongering to point out these things. It's a reality check.

dubberdo

xflyer wrote: »

That already happens, pilots buying a place in right seat in airlines for the experience.

Ryanair don't employ many of the pilots flying their aircraft, they pay for their own rating, uniform, medical etc. They don't get paid for the first few weeks on the line and they only get paid when they fly, no such thing as a pension, sick leave or anything like that.

Then there's this Aer Lingus cadetship. They select you after a very competitive interviews and tests and then you pay for all the training.

Isn't that paying to get a job?

You can also be sure that the initial salary and terms and conditions will be 'competitive' as in it will nearer the bottom than the top of the scale. Probably not far off the Ryanair rates. Aer Lingus cannot afford it to be otherwise. This isn't speculation, that's the reality in the current economic climate.

It's not scaremongering to point out these things. It's a reality check.

I know that arguement. You've missed the point I made; that he's saying the wage is crap anyways and then saying if X takes over Y(which is disallowed) that the wage will be crapper. It wasn't a very coherent arguement.

Can you tell me a case where a fully qualified pilot, as in has type rating with the required hours, is paying to sit in the right hand seat? You could argue where does the qualification end? To an airline you're not much use 'til you've got the type rating. A doctor couldn't expect to have a hospital pay their last two years of college even though they're based in the hospital could they?

You could say doctors pay for their training too. And often it's more than what a pilot would pay... Swings and roundabouts.

handsomecake

dubberdo wrote: »

xflyer wrote: »

That already happens, pilots buying a place in right seat in airlines for the experience.

Ryanair don't employ many of the pilots flying their aircraft, they pay for their own rating, uniform, medical etc. They don't get paid for the first few weeks on the line and they only get paid when they fly, no such thing as a pension, sick leave or anything like that.

Then there's this Aer Lingus cadetship. They select you after a very competitive interviews and tests and then you pay for all the training.

Isn't that paying to get a job?

You can also be sure that the initial salary and terms and conditions will be 'competitive' as in it will nearer the bottom than the top of the scale. Probably not far off the Ryanair rates. Aer Lingus cannot afford it to be otherwise. This isn't speculation, that's the reality in the current economic climate.

It's not scaremongering to point out these things. It's a reality check.

I know that arguement. You've missed the point I made; that he's saying the wage is crap anyways and then saying if X takes over Y(which is disallowed) that the wage will be crapper. It wasn't a very coherent arguement.

Can you tell me a case where a fully qualified pilot, as in has type rating with the required hours, is paying to sit in the right hand seat? You could argue where does the qualification end? To an airline you're not much use 'til you've got the type rating. A doctor couldn't expect to have a hospital pay their last two years of college even though they're based in the hospital could they?

You could say doctors pay for their training too. And often it's more than what a pilot would pay... Swings and roundabouts.

BMI f/o's were paying to be in the RHS.

dubberdo

handsomecake wrote: »

BMI f/o's were paying to be in the RHS.

That was for type rating and line training on a 6 month contract... I said name an airline that requires payment once over the 'type rating and required hours'. I realise the ins and outs of the training with no job at the end. I'm just saying that EI offering training(or part thereof) and a good chance of employment at the end is not the same as the BMI scheme which in turn in not technically the same as 'paying to work'. It's 'paying for training to a greater degree than other pilots would'.