AL Cadet programme

antonov225

dubberdo, how much research have you done about what paying for line training is doing to the pilot profession?

I'm no expert but it seems professional pilots everywhere are raging over the audacity of airlines charging low houred pilots to fly, keeping others out of a job. There once was a time when airlines paid for all your training. Then it was just the TR, nowadays not even that. Now there's airlines 'selling' blocks of 1-500 hours to 'get you ahead' at interviews. It's the reason I never took the financial risk of going to a flying school. Where does the spending end and the earning begin? Where does it end?!

dubberdo

antonov225 wrote: »

There once was a time when airlines paid for all your training. Then it was just the TR, nowadays not even that. Now there's airlines 'selling' blocks of 1-500 hours to 'get you ahead' at interviews. It's the reason I never took the financial risk of going to a flying school. Where does the spending end and the earning begin? Where does it end?!

I'm not claiming to be an expert. I don't want to appear that way. I just know about BMI 'cause I was talking to somebody who did it and got taken on by them eventually actually.

I don't think they ever 'paid for all your training'. They may have financed you but the bond meant they got their money back.

Where the spending ends and earning begins and also the cost of the TR is what seems to vary between airlines. With Ryanair I think it's at the end of line training and with others you may be paid for that on a lower wage until you finish line training I think(correct me if I'm wrong).

antonov225

yes, well indeed 'paid for all your training' was a poor choice of words on my part. Bonded you for it is more accurate.

I'd just hate to be in the situation many are now in, which is indebted for the cost of their flying school and TR, and then actually paying to do the job until they have the hours on type being required by many airlines. That's not even with a guaranteed job at the end of it. What if airlines start saying you need 1000 hours on type before they'll consider you?

Anyway I digress and these are DE issues so apologies for getting off topic, I'll say no more.

dubberdo

antonov225 wrote: »

yes, well indeed 'paid for all your training' was a poor choice of words on my part. Bonded you for it is more accurate.

I'd just hate to be in the situation many are now in, which is indebted for the cost of their flying school and TR, and then actually paying to do the job until they have the hours on type being required by many airlines. That's not even with a guaranteed job at the end of it. What if airlines start saying you need 1000 hours on type before they'll consider you?

Anyway I digress and these are DE issues so apologies for getting off topic, I'll say no more.

I broadly agree with you and I know what you're getting at. I don't know how it's going to be possible to train in the States when the 1500hr rule comes in...

It just depends on how comfortable you are with handling debt or spending big. The basic training can be done modularly and debt free. If offered a position with the likes of Ryanair at least you're not completely at a dead end after type rating. I wouldn't do it unless there was hope at the end...

That guy I spoke to that did it with BMI did do it without any guarantees and I think he had no work for a time after type and line training... I wouldn't be comfortable doing that. Each to their own...

xflyer

Can you tell me a case where a fully qualified pilot, as in has type rating with the required hours, is paying to sit in the right hand seat?

If they have the required hours that doesn't happen and isn't what I'm saying. It's those with who bought type ratings and then buy a block of hours while acting as an FO. As a result those who have the hours and experience are kept out of jobs including themselves when they finish their stint.

Comparing other jobs isn't valid. A Doctor does pay for his/her training to some extent although I think the taxpayer has an input too. But this is like a hospital hiring people off the street to become Doctors, then asking them for money up front with no guarantee of a job. There would quite rightly be uproar. Same with Engineers, or Architects etc.

The fact is, whatever way you cut it, Aer Lingus is asking people to buy a job off them. Only pilots are asked to do this. Because no other job or profession would fall for it. Apparently you find this acceptable, apparently given the number of applications lots of people find this acceptable.

It's one thing to pay for your own training in your chosen profession. Then apply for a job in that profession but it's quite another to be expected to buy a job. But it's now the norm in the airline business. And it's the future.

XWB

Lets clear up an issue here of misconception. Ryanair may not take majority shareholding of Aer Lingus and operate it as a seperate airline.
However they may take majority control and fold it into Ryanair and canabalise the fleet for TA ops etc if they want(and expand the european fleet with the a320s, again if they wish).

All the pilots here who have been down the raod are saying the one thing so I would suggest those who themselves profess to "not be experts" take our word a little more.
If Aer Lingus pay partly for training then their wage will be in the region of the Ryanair DE type wage. If not then the airline would really be missing out and operating in a very bad financial manner.

Weissbier

dubberdo wrote: »

handsomecake wrote: »

BMI f/o's were paying to be in the RHS.

That was for type rating and line training on a 6 month contract... I said name an airline that requires payment once over the 'type rating and required hours'. I realise the ins and outs of the training with no job at the end. I'm just saying that EI offering training(or part thereof) and a good chance of employment at the end is not the same as the BMI scheme which in turn in not technically the same as 'paying to work'. It's 'paying for training to a greater degree than other pilots would'.

I don't want to suggest that you are naive, but I must agree with the others. To me that sounds like you are paying to work for them!! During Line Training you must remember that you are still a qualified pilot albeit in a position of Training on a bigger bird, you are expected to handle the equipment and interact as a crew member, etc. etc.. And your point with respect to a doctor that he/she does not get paid while working in the hospital is not true, they will get paid even if it is a low training rate.

My point being, no one should be expected to work for free, and the notion that you should pay them for that privalage is crazy (it feels wrong even to call it a privilege).

And to reiterate another poster's point, this can only harm the pilot profession, not even to raise the question of safety. The only reason this and other such harmful practices are being carried out by unscrupulous employers is because, They Can!! It's an emloyers market!!! They are not doing this to benefit the young pilot who is already up to his/her neck in debt. They do this to reduce overheads and to do realtime interviews at a very very large expense to the potential emloyee.

This is plain and simple, wrong wrong!!

Also to suggest that you will be better off with Ryanair although true with respect to what BMI is doing. It is still not fair is to let them off the hook. They interview you then offer you a job and then say we need €20k to €30k for Type Rating. And if you have it they hire you and then add you to an already very large holding pool of pilots and offering a minimal amount of flight time, ultimately keeping you in tow, you are now at their mercy. Ask yourself why have they never gone on strike.

Bessarion

XWB wrote: »

Lets clear up an issue here of misconception. Ryanair may not take majority shareholding of Aer Lingus and operate it as a seperate airline.
However they may take majority control and fold it into Ryanair and canabalise the fleet for TA ops etc if they want(and expand the european fleet with the a320s, again if they wish).......

I think you are being a bit negative in this regard;
-EU Competition Authority ruling says FR cannot make another bid for EI. (They cannot buy more shares without formally declaring a bid therefore can do neither)
-Govt will not sell their 25% to FR.
-Govt has stated they will sell their 25% at some stage.
-FR has written down their shareholding in their accounts.
-FR has stated they would be willing to sell their 29% to the same bidder provided they are a 'financially stable company'.
-Even with 29% FR do not have a rep on the EI board.

And for a person to turn down this opportunity based on what may happen to EI is similarly, a bit of a negative outlook ovverall.

dubberdo

XWB wrote: »

Lets clear up an issue here of misconception. Ryanair may not take majority shareholding of Aer Lingus and operate it as a seperate airline.
However they may take majority control and fold it into Ryanair and canabalise the fleet for TA ops etc if they want(and expand the european fleet with the a320s, again if they wish).

All the pilots here who have been down the raod are saying the one thing so I would suggest those who themselves profess to "not be experts" take our word a little more.
If Aer Lingus pay partly for training then their wage will be in the region of the Ryanair DE type wage. If not then the airline would really be missing out and operating in a very bad financial manner.

At least I'm able to admit not being an expert...

What I'd like to know is why your nephew got involved in the process if his uncle is so against the T&C's of this cadetship which nobody knows of yet...

Me thinks some may have agendas...

Weissbier

dubberdo wrote: »

At least I'm able to admit not being an expert...

What I'd like to know is why your nephew got involved in the process if his uncle is so against the T&C's of this cadetship which nobody knows of yet...

Me thinks some may have agendas...

I do not mean to reply on behalf of XWB but I believe he has been mis-quoted by a few, and in fairness this is the nature of a thread like this. Points can be mis-read or even interpreted incorrectly.

I believe what XWB (XWB please correct me if I'm wrong) is saying the new T's&C's are nothing like what they were in his day and the days of a pilot being on megabucks is gone, and people should not be going into this profession for the wrong reasons. You must truly want to be a pilot (which in fairness I believe most here do) and I'm sure he told his nephew this. But what I believe he is trying to do here is advise the masses, from all ages and backgrounds, but this unfortunately may be not palatable to all. One must consider all aspects of this proposal from your age, financial considerations, family commitments, etc..

Myself personally I believe that it is possibly the best that is currently out there on offer. But the poor T's&C's are a direct result of the current global economic crisis and the excess availability of pilots available for employment. However if you are prepared for initial hardship and understand all that will be required of you in becoming a modern pilot (remember it is essentially a Diploma/Degree course compressed into 18months and that can be hard for some), you should go for it if it still is want you want.

I don't believe XWB is trying to deter anyone for the wrong reasons or alterior motives, I think it is just plain advice and he has made this clear and has admitted that he was unsure of some figures, is he expected to add to every comment 'this may be subject to change without prior notice'.

happy_head

Definately think there is sumtin fishy about XWB. He became a complete scaremongorer after the fist batch of emails went out, then he feeds us all with total BS and wont believe you when you tell him something straight from the mouth of Malachy o'C.

I dont think XWB or any of his "in the know" friends and relatives have a bulls notion what is goin on.

happy_head

Weissbier wrote: »

I do not mean to reply on behalf of XWB but I believe he has been mis-quoted by a few, and in fairness this is the nature of a thread like this. Points can be mis-read or even interpreted incorrectly.

I believe what XWB (XWB please correct me if I'm wrong) is saying the new T's&C's are nothing like what they were in his day and the days of a pilot being on megabucks is gone, and people should not be going into this profession for the wrong reasons. You must truly want to be a pilot (which in fairness I believe most here do) and I'm sure he told his nephew this. But what I believe he is trying to do here is advise the masses, from all ages and backgrounds, but this unfortunately may be not palatable to all. One must consider all aspects of this proposal from your age, financial considerations, family commitments, etc..

Myself personally I believe that it is possibly the best that is currently out there on offer. But the poor T's&C's are a direct result of the current global economic crisis and the excess availability of pilots available for employment. However if you are prepared for initial hardship and understand all that will be required of you in becoming a modern pilot (remember it is essentially a Diploma/Degree course compressed into 18months and that can be hard for some), you should go for it if it still is want you want.

I don't believe XWB is trying to deter anyone for the wrong reasons or alterior motives, I think it is just plain advice and he has made this clear and has admitted that he was unsure of some figures, is he expected to add to every comment 'this may be subject to change without prior notice'.

How can he comment on the T's and C's when he doesnt even know them?

nag

This thread is going nowhere fast.

foxtrot hotel

This thread is going somewhere slow!

kona

happy_head wrote: »

I dont think XWB or any of his "in the know" friends and relatives have a bulls notion what is goin on.

Nobody on this thread has a notion of whats going on. Some posters are not even on the same planet.

If you dont believe somebody, just ignore it, Boards.ie is full of bollix anyways. Its not bash XWB thread.

XWB

Plain and very simple way to sum this all up.

Some posters here show their inexperiance in the mechanics of the industry.

On the red-herring of my nephew...well this cadetship is on a par with any other job a newbie will get...so why would I advise him against it? Besides he's his own man!
I am advising nobody against anything...I am however pointing out that this is not like winning the lotto...you will have the same t&cs broadly as Ryanair, Easyjet, Wizz etc FOs have when they 1st join the company.
My point is that by being a cadet you indebt yourself to the company and that is something that for example a Ryanair FO does not have to deal with in the same sense. When you get in as an FO you dont owe Ryanair anything.

As I said before all those who have actual experiance as pilots seem to make the same points, but are being told we're wrong by people who just dont want their idealistic notion knocked.

If I have been more negative since the last batch of emails it is because the issues I have raised are now applicable to those few called. They were not really of concern when the pool was bigger. Not so far away in PTC a group of Flybe cadets were stung by a sudden change in Ts&Cs and it isnt unusual in the industry. Until you see it on paper it isnt worth ****!

Anything you hear at assesments must be taken with a pinch of salt, because you must remember that Aer Lingus are getting a better deal out of this than you are...ortherwise they wouldnt be doing it! So it is in their interest to keep you interested and stoke your fires. It's the same as the yarn you are spun at the PTC, Jerez of Oxford assesments to make sure they get the firing burning and hold you in.
Really all I can say is that you'll have to wait until you're in there and more experianced and then you'll see where I'm coming from.

Bear in mind if you dont like my attitude there are many more with the same attitude patting right hand seats from the left waiting for you in Aer Lingus!

high ho

XWB wrote: »

Plain and very simple way to sum this all up.

Some posters here show their inexperiance in the mechanics of the industry.

On the red-herring of my nephew...well this cadetship is on a par with any other job a newbie will get...so why would I advise him against it? Besides he's his own man!
I am advising nobody against anything...I am however pointing out that this is not like winning the lotto...you will have the same t&cs broadly as Ryanair, Easyjet, Wizz etc FOs have when they 1st join the company.
My point is that by being a cadet you indebt yourself to the company and that is something that for example a Ryanair FO does not have to deal with in the same sense. When you get in as an FO you dont owe Ryanair anything.

As I said before all those who have actual experiance as pilots seem to make the same points, but are being told we're wrong by people who just dont want their idealistic notion knocked.

If I have been more negative since the last batch of emails it is because the issues I have raised are now applicable to those few called. They were not really of concern when the pool was bigger. Not so far away in PTC a group of Flybe cadets were stung by a sudden change in Ts&Cs and it isnt unusual in the industry. Until you see it on paper it isnt worth ****!

Anything you hear at assesments must be taken with a pinch of salt, because you must remember that Aer Lingus are getting a better deal out of this than you are...ortherwise they wouldnt be doing it! So it is in their interest to keep you interested and stoke your fires. It's the same as the yarn you are spun at the PTC, Jerez of Oxford assesments to make sure they get the firing burning and hold you in.
Really all I can say is that you'll have to wait until you're in there and more experianced and then you'll see where I'm coming from.

Bear in mind if you dont like my attitude there are many more with the same attitude patting right hand seats from the left waiting for you in Aer Lingus!

I totally agree with you, nothing ever is an it seems and of course they are getting exactly what they want out of this and giving as little as possible in return, thats business. But, for many people out there, this is the only show in town, most of the young budding wannabies do not have access to 100+k for training, especially with absolutly no job guarantee at the end, however, this here is possibly going to be 50k to the cadet, a much more accessable amount of money and the rest is paid for in blood over x amount of years, again, more doable for the average cadet out there. If you cant get 100k for integrated training and want a 90% chance of a job at the end for half price, this is the place to be.... It really is that simple, or close to it, we will have wait and see the exact t's and c's of course. If you have the money go it on your own, most likely end up in the sandpit or FR, if you dont have the money this is your gig....

basill

Actually I don't think AL is the only show in town, and there are certainly better. Firstly, there is the BA scheme and secondly there is CTC. Whilst the CTC scheme ain't great, getting into a stable company like Easy you have none of the worry of your employer going broke or being sold. BA is a no brainer. You will be working for the soon to be largest airline groups in the world with a route network that covers the entire globe. Whether you like short, medium or long haul, at home or away for long periods there are fleets and lifestyle choices to match.

Contrast the above with the current state of play at AL:-

- likely to be sold in the next 1-2 years and worst case scenario could be broken up if a private equity consortium takes us over
- the average age of captains is 39
- time to command at a minimum is 12 years but figure on a lot higher in my own personal opinion
- to see the RHS of the A330 you are probably looking at 8 years minimum and even then the rosters are so bad and fatigue inducing that you will most likely let it pass you by

I don't want to put a downer on people joining but you need to come in eyes wide open. There is definitely better out there which is why so many have left over the past 18 months as other companies have started recruiting.

Ryan J

Has anybody got any definite figures/paperwork/brochures from the assessment centre that confirm details of the sponsorship.

I may be reading this incorrectly, but doesnt sponsorship mean they will pay for part of your training "partly funded by the student" as mentioned in the advertisement for applicants.

If we have to find say 50K loan and then have AL pay the other 50K = £100K. The loan has to be paid back obviously but I dont understand where ALs sponsorship applies, as if a bond of £50K has to be paid back to them over a number of years then you pay the full cost which in my opinion is not a sponsorship. I thought they paid part of the cost and tied you into the company for a number of years, and that if you decided to jump ship before that term was up then you paid back the training fee.

Finally, to those that have been to the assessment centre at the Radisson, when will you hear if you have been successful?

Thanks

eatmyshorts

XWB wrote: »

Some posters here show their inexperiance in the mechanics of the industry.

That is quite in evidence.

XWB wrote: »

As I said before all those who have actual experiance as pilots seem to make the same points, but are being told we're wrong by people who just dont want their idealistic notion knocked.

A little knowledge is often more dangerous than none at all.

XWB wrote: »

Until you see it on paper it isnt worth ****!

Even then it's still worth ****! Just think if all those written and signed IALPA/EI agreements over the years.

XWB wrote: »

Really all I can say is that you'll have to wait until you're in there and more experianced and then you'll see where I'm coming from.
Bear in mind if you dont like my attitude there are many more with the same attitude patting right hand seats from the left waiting for you in Aer Lingus!

I detect a hint of "I already know everything" attitude from some posters. That's not an attitude you want to take into a job like this at anytime. The inability to take direction and learn from those who are vastly more experienced will quickly cause trouble.

xflyer

No one likes to have their dreams thrashed. Particularly the young and enthusiastic. But whether you like it or not flying is great but the job is no longer that good. If Aer Lingus was the aviation equivalent of winning the X-factor, why are some many leaving for pastures new?

Which isn't to say it's all bad. Quite the opposite in fact. But once you have a job, issues like pay, rosters, quality of life etc come into play. It doesn't matter who you work for. Later when you get married as most do, issues of being away from home and childcare and missing out on important milestones in your children's lives begin to arise. Hard to imagine when you 18 years old but all too real when the time comes.

But if you don't want to read things you don't like. Ignore them. If you want to go into this with your eyes open and forewarned then you know what to do.

All I ever wanted to do was fly for a living so I can understand the enthusiasm. But would I recommend it to my kids? No, simple as that. As it is I'm in the process of disengaging from working as a pilot. Maybe do some part time but that will be that. Never thought I would say that.

richgeezer

Kind yet firm words xflyer.Well done great post.I know a few pilots for both major paddy airlines and they have said the same thing...:(

xflyer wrote: »

No one likes to have their dreams thrashed. Particularly the young and enthusiastic. But whether you like it or not flying is great but the job is no longer that good. If Aer Lingus was the aviation equivalent of winning the X-factor, why are some many leaving for pastures new?

Which isn't to say it's all bad. Quite the opposite in fact. But once you have a job, issues like pay, rosters, quality of life etc come into play. It doesn't matter who you work for. Later when you get married as most do, issues of being away from home and childcare and missing out on important milestones in your children's lives begin to arise. Hard to imagine when you 18 years old but all too real when the time comes.

But if you don't want to read things you don't like. Ignore them. If you want to go into this with your eyes open and forewarned then you know what to do.

All I ever wanted to do was fly for a living so I can understand the enthusiasm. But would I recommend it to my kids? No, simple as that. As it is I'm in the process of disengaging from working as a pilot. Maybe do some part time but that will be that. Never thought I would say that.

chewits

Some people just like to close their ears and not listen to solid advice.

Anyone who goes into this not fully aware will not be chosen as a cadet.

They need to see you are competent.

Tightwad

The points made about the programme 'not being the golden ticket," 'not to go in blindly' are completely valid and ,amongst other things, at the forefront of my mind.

They are greatly appreciated but none the less......they have been driven home like HELL.

Its great to hear everyones opinion, after all thats what the thread is for but once a point is made...its made. Isn't it?

el tel

xflyer wrote: »

If Aer Lingus was the aviation equivalent of winning the X-factor, why are some many leaving for pastures new?

Good analogy.

Seems like it is just like the X-Factor in more ways than one - lots of deluded innocent dreamers, busting their hump to get through the auditions, getting tied in to vice-like contract, being used and abused, burn't out and humiliated with ever-decreasing prospects as reality bites, and always liable for dumping when the winds of fortune turn around.

BigBirdie

This thread is really funny when you read back over it, it has gotten gradually more negative as time has passed!

For those of you who have posted the informative posts and wern't just scaremongering, thank you. It's always good to be prepared and to know the reality of the situation rather than just being a "deluded" dreamer. Having read all of the above though, and a lot else besides I think it's time for some positivity, no? I fully intend to go to the next stage (If I am lucky enough to get there) with an arsenal of questions, but I still know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is what I want. The path I am on now is just looking less and less attractive by comparison. So chin up folks. There's very little hard facts as yet, so let's wait and see shall we?

AirMechMan

Ok, Just to clear a few things up,

PAY: It all depends on the fine print what your salary will be. Baring in mind Not everybody in aer lingus is employed by 'Aer lingus' exactly, for example a lot, (if not all) new engineers are employed by 'Aer lingus (ireland) ltd,' I.E a subsidy. You never know what round about way they will have of employing cadets. This allows them to have a two tier employment system. I don't know how much you all will get when you start, and don't listen to anyone who thinks they do know - bottom line: They are full of Sh!t. Theres no reason to think you will be on the same pay scale as current F/O's, but it won't be a bad wage, Aer Lingus do treat their flight crew well, and the new cadets won't be an exception.

COST OF TRAINING: Again, I've been talking to people who are involved in the set up of the cadetship, they still don't have an exact figure of the cost. I haven't read the whole thread, so I don't know if Aer lingus gave you all a figure or not, but if they have, its just a ball park.

REPAYMENT OF TRAINING COSTS: I don't know what way it works, but the payments won't impoverish you, you will have a decent wage anyway. One thing to note though, all contracts for new employees of Aer Lingus will DEFINATELY say in one way or another "even if you complete your training, we don't have to give you a job, we owe you nothing." I am sure of this. This is the same in every department of the company basically. Keep this in mind at all times, I said the same thing to the engineering apprentices, and I hit the nail on the head, it's in their contract.

The staff organising the cadetship are still working hard at arranging everything, and this is a definite. They still have a lot of things to work out themselves, and for those who thinks I'm talking crap, and that I don't work in the company, they are in the offices in hangar 6, just past the new canteen on floor 2. There is far too much Bull on this thread, take everything that you hear with a pinch of salt, the plans aren't set in stone.


I know this is a very heavy post, but I can honestly say, Aer Lingus is a great place to work, they are very fair as employers, and everyone has good craic in work. The work atmosphere in Aer Lingus is second to none in my oppinion.

The cadetship is going to be great, and is a fantastic opportunity. Current Aer Lingus emloyees applied, and I think that shows that it is a worthwile endevour. It's going to be a long process, but well worth it for those who get through.

And I think I speak for every Aer Lingus employee when I say, you are going to have to sit through 10 million power point presentations that will bore you to tears before you even set foot on an Aer lingus aircraft! :P
Good luck with that, you will grow to hate the shamrock and the colour green after you have started at it on a projector screen for hours on end!


Best of luck to eveyone who is applying, you will absolutely love working in Aer Lingus, everyone does (bar a couple of exceptions of course), and I think it will only get better and better with all the new young people joining the company in the different departments, it's nice seeing so many new faces around, is really bringing life back to the place!

BTW, be careful about your posts, Aer Lingus will definately be following this thread.

AirMechMan

Also, feel free to PM me with any questions you might have, I'd be glad to help if I can.

XWB

BigBirdie wrote: »

This thread is really funny when you read back over it, it has gotten gradually more negative as time has passed!

Ironically it mirrors the attitude of Aer Lingus pilots in the same timeframe.

Sorry I was away the past few days...was renewing my a330 ratings and so on....oh dear...now where was it I hung that hat up?;)

Bearcat

XWB wrote: »

Ironically it mirrors the attitude of Aer Lingus pilots in the same timeframe.

Sorry I was away the past few days...was renewing my a330 ratings and so on....oh dear...now where was it I hung that hat up?;)

Ah, we might be on the sim together;)