AL Cadet programme

Suits · 04-02-2012 1:09pm

Bond Villain wrote: »

I'm sure the 20 successful cadets feel that the the DE route (which offers, at best a short term contract) is the best route for them. No doubt that they are kicking themselves at the firm A320 contract knowing that they could have had a 3 -6 month contract instead!

I'm equally pleased that the pilot who spoke to you expressed his concern that the cadet scheme had failed to deliver 20 suitable cadets. The 20 cadets who were successful can rest knowing that they are under par for what Aer Lingus looked for.

Or maybe you are talking just S**T and one of many bitter unsuccessful?

Please feel free, on completion of your self funded IR/CPL to chat to on this forum, to those who hope next year to be successful with AL, just how the self funded route is working out for you!!

Kind regards,

BV !!

You show a remarkable lack of knowledge about how this works.

One of the reasons I bowed out was because they could not guarantee the length or even the availability of contracts.
The cadets will get a fATPL with AL footing the bill and that's great, but then they are "AL men", they will no doubt have all the AL SOPs slotted into their training etc. So they finish their MEIR lets say. AL does not guarantee that on completion of the MEIR you will go straight to TR. They state it is subject to " crewing demand" which is airlinish for "sit down and shut up and wait your turn, we'll TR you when we need you". At Easyjet some guys spent years in the pool waiting for a TR, while contracted to Easyjet. AL differs as AL cadets also have a bond. In the pool you HAVE to wait as you are under contract. They may say you dont have a bond but thats just because they dont call it a bond, a donkey is a donkey even on you call it a horse.

For the sake of arguement we'll say I get my self funded fATPL and then go back to Aer Lingus as a DE. I will know I'm getting a TR, I wont be in a pool and I will be paid much better than a cadet. I will be in effect "my own man" who can choose to tell them to stick their contract if it isnt what I want, a cadet cannot.
Your statement about short contracts really proves you dont know the game. AL offer short contracts to CONTRACTORS on the A320. Guys they bring in to fill gaps that open on a short term basis. They were offering 3 year hitches to British Oxford grads in November last as they knew from experiance that is about the length of time they usually stay before moving on. The cadets as with the Flybe and Cityjet and Easyjet cadets will have to sign contracts with whatever the airlines wants written into them. The stroke here comes here as most of the time your core employment conditions are not written up until you get your IR and are more of less to deep in to back out(and in any case if you do you will be getting a 100k bill from AL). Aviation minded people know what they are getting when the sign up to these things and that is why I get the distinct impression not many true aviation lovers actually stayed in the race.
Conditions at present in AL are grim and any AL pilot will tell you that. Many are bailing out over the side due to crappy rosters etc. When I heard the rumours of a cadetship I and others knew it was one of 2 things, a golden ticket that could not be passed up, or a cold hard business venture from an airline that is looking to mind it's pennies. From what I got at Q&As and through various questions I asked I made my own personal judgement that it was the latter.

This whole thing is a matter of personal preference. The cadets will be used as corks to plug the gaps and if people are ok with that then good for them, perhaps they cannot afford to fund themself and that is fair enough, do what you have to do to get there.
However like I said I can, and I know I'm lucky in that respect and a lot of people cant. But if you do a little bit of digging and ask around you will see that of all the airlines in Europe the pilots with the best terms and happiest working life are the DE guys.

As a matter of information for people I can tell you that when i took the decision to pull out I was informed I was not the only one to withdraw. But if I fund myself I may end up with Ryanair, but after a few years I will have no debt, not owe anyone anything, and an unfrozen ATPL and have a fair few jet hours under my belt. If we aim that crosshairs at 5 years from now, I think I will be better off than any cadet in Europe who's signing up now.

Moon_Shadow · 04-02-2012 1:33pm

xflyer wrote: »

Bond Villain, living up to your name a bit? Nothing Suits said justifies an ad hominen attack on him. On the contrary you come across as the one carrying chip!

Suits has a point and clearly has the right attitude. He took a cold hard look at the terms, didn't like them and bowed out. How that can be construed as criticism of the 20 who made it through, I don't know? This is a job not the X factor.

The fact is nothing is guaranteed for the cadets. Not a job or a place flying an A320. Nothing. On top of that they have to front up a substantial amount of money to pay for it all.

Like any job, people really need to take a more pragmatic view of it than simply regarding it as 'dream come true'.

Now I'll be accused of being bitter.:cool:

I think he's taking it to heart 'cause he is one of the 20 cadets.

I have heard people warn of the cadetship route too I have to say. The experience of the last cadetship group says it all really. Though there are no guarantees of any sort (business has to be right and your standards have to be high) I think this group will be straight into TR and on the line if what I hear about rosters and so on is true. Things seem to be flat lining as regards revenue so I don't think cuts will be the priority they were in 2008. Talking to a member of cabin crew in EI I was told that one morning they had to practically slap the FO awake because he was so exhausted from the way his roster was done up. Also said couple of flights were cancelled due to having no Captains available over summer season. Like Suits says the DE entry does seem appealing if you get lucky. I don't blame the guys for taking the Cadetship though. As a Virgin Atlantic pilot told me "Just take that first job whatever it is."

The real hard work starts now for those cadets. 5 months to get the ATPLs sorted... That's a tough task. I wonder is it front loaded so that if you don't get over the hardest and cheapest part of the course you don't run up debt doing the easier and more expensive parts??? Anybody have any idea of drop out rates on integrated courses in the likes of Jerez? It is very intense...

Gareth2011 · 04-02-2012 2:00pm

Hey folks I found this by accident.

http://www.pilottrainingcollege.com/FlybeEntryRequirements.aspx

Flybe are taking applications for cadetships. You can click on the link to get the info needed but I think you have to fund it yourself? Im not sure on that its just on the entry requirements page it says you must have proof of complete course funds :eek:. Take a look if your interested.

Suits · 04-02-2012 2:12pm

Gareth2011 wrote: »

Hey folks I found this by accident.

http://www.pilottrainingcollege.com/FlybeEntryRequirements.aspx

Flybe are taking applications for cadetships. You can click on the link to get the info needed but I think you have to fund it yourself? Im not sure on that its just on the entry requirements page it says you must have proof of complete course funds :eek:. Take a look if your interested.

I dont want to be Mr Downer. But I know some lads who were on this. 2 are on the Dash now with Flybe, but the course is fully funded by the cadet. Infact it isnt really a cadetship.....Flybe will give you a job at the end but that seems to be the case for a lot of PTC grads these days.....however you have to pass EVERYTHING 1st time or you will be cut off by Flybe..that includes flight tests and all ground exams...and you need a 90 or avove average at ATPLs. But if you are cut off you can stay in PTC, because you are paying in the end. You just wont be a Flybe cadet...and if you ask me you'd better off!

If you have the money to do this then you have the money to go to PTC on your own bat...so it isnt really much different to just going to PTC.

My advice...dont go to PTC :rolleyes:...Ryanair dont get on too well with them and Ryanair is the best realistic option these days for those starting up(in a world of few options that is). Unless you get lucky...

Gareth2011 · 04-02-2012 2:32pm

I know what your saying but with ryanair don't you still have to fund it all yourself? I remember a grounds crew guy and he was saying he was doing the grounds crew thing to get to know the pilots and the workings etc. He already had his ppl and his cpl I think he said he was going to do his ATPL too but was saving up for it but I thought it was a good way to get the experience close to the planes and knowing everything that went on besides just knowing the cockpit side of it. (All rounder if you like).

Suits · 04-02-2012 2:39pm

Gareth2011 wrote: »

I know what your saying but with ryanair don't you still have to fund it all yourself? I remember a grounds crew guy and he was saying he was doing the grounds crew thing to get to know the pilots and the workings etc. He already had his ppl and his cpl I think he said he was going to do his ATPL too but was saving up for it but I thought it was a good way to get the experience close to the planes and knowing everything that went on besides just knowing the cockpit side of it. (All rounder if you like).

Yes you must pay everything with Ryanair but Ryanair is jet hours. Flybe is hours on the Dash..a turboprop aircraft. Jet hours are better currency from a moving on to bigger and better things point of view. Turboprop hours are still ok and like people have said take whatever job is offered, but if I had the choice I'd choose the jet.

And well if you have to work to save up money for an ATPL then working somewhere like that is pretty good if you can get it!

Railjon · 04-02-2012 3:02pm

Flybe have E-175s on order to replace Q400s on a like for like basis so the prop to jet conversion time is at around 2-3 years at the minute and decreasing. Guys coming from a TP background generally are seen to have more of a hands-on flying experience and this can be of benefit when it comes to CVs and sim checks.

Suits · 05-02-2012 1:00pm

Railjon wrote: »

Flybe have E-175s on order to replace Q400s on a like for like basis so the prop to jet conversion time is at around 2-3 years at the minute and decreasing. Guys coming from a TP background generally are seen to have more of a hands-on flying experience and this can be of benefit when it comes to CVs and sim checks.

I was aware of the E jets and yes TP guys do have alot more hands on, but I've heard from Ryanair guys that given some of the grass strips Ryanair operate off in Eastern Europe and the lack of top of the range ILS gear etc a lot more hands on NG flying is done than you would get round these parts.

Bottom line for people when starting out however is that you take anything with wings and work from there!

Xpro · 23-02-2012 8:17pm

So is there anyone from this thread that got trough? :rolleyes:

Suits · 23-02-2012 9:06pm

Xpro wrote: »

So is there anyone from this thread that got trough? :rolleyes:

Anyone who posts here has an interest in aviation and flying and know's something about it.

So we're all automatically discounted from what I heard!:P

abdu_lapua · 23-05-2012 10:01pm

I hear that Aer Lingus may run this cadetship again at the end of this year! any one else hear anything along those lines.

I can't wait for it

Railjon · 23-05-2012 10:13pm

I was told from two or three staff that next year would be the earliest the next cadetship would run, and that it would be for fewer candidates.

Tenger · 23-05-2012 10:45pm

abdu_lapua wrote: »

I hear that Aer Lingus may run this cadetship again at the end of this year! any one else hear anything along those lines...

I got the impression when it was first announced that EI had planned to run the cadetship for 5 years to ensure a steady supply of flight crew for the next few years.

abdu_lapua · 23-05-2012 11:28pm

Railjon wrote: »

I was told from two or three staff that next year would be the earliest the next cadetship would run, and that it would be for fewer candidates.

I heard end of this year start of 2013 and they wud take more because they are even shorter on f/o's than last time. I think a few may have left

basill · 24-05-2012 7:44am

It depends on who's pet project the scheme was in the first place. A new chief pilot will be appointed shortly which could change things altogether.

I heard end of this year start of 2013 and they wud take more because they are even shorter on f/o's than last time. I think a few may have left

As always we are short of people in both seats. Contract copilots are in again for the summer to shore up the ship to an extent. A couple of FOs left at short notice as well.

Also if any sort of expansion happens (West Coast, Canada, flying Ethihad routes) then they will be caught with their pants down yet again. I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't some recruiting later this year to get people online for next summer. Same old same old though in Aer Lingus.

Suits · 24-05-2012 5:28pm

Not this again!;)

I heard(and this was unofficial casual off the cuff comments over the last few months so it isnt 100%) that the performance of some of the cadets selected wasnt exactly what Aer Lingus hoped for. Number quoted was 4(again not 100%) that are expected to make it to TR on time and as Aer Lingus hoped. Some are lagging behind the schedule and word has it some washed out after a few weeks of theory. The fear was expressed that the projected number of pilots to cover the summer schedule would not be met for 2013. Running a cadetship wont change this and I am reasonably sure that the model of this year's cadetship will not be followed.

Now basill mentioned a new chief pilot and I have a few pence of tip off on that. A lot of people seem to think that a new chief pilot may push for a yearly DE scheme(open and fair) and relax the odd and seemingly counter-productive process that has taken place over the last few years. This is because a lot of guys who have been in Aer Lingus a few years are not Irish and so want to move on/home and also a lot of the Irish guys are going for the money out East. It was described to me like a tree with a trunk and branches(made of cadets and senior FOs/Captains) and a lot of the last 5 years' intake are the leaves. They fall off every year to be replaced by new leaves that then fall off shortly later.
Aer Lingus needs a sustainable pool of pilots and their current model doesnt work toward that. A new chief pilot may have some fresh ideas.

abdu_lapua · 24-05-2012 5:44pm

Suits wrote: »

Not this again!;)

I heard(and this was unofficial casual off the cuff comments over the last few months so it isnt 100%) that the performance of some of the cadets selected wasnt exactly what Aer Lingus hoped for. Number quoted was 4(again not 100%) that are expected to make it to TR on time and as Aer Lingus hoped. Some are lagging behind the schedule and word has it some washed out after a few weeks of theory. The fear was expressed that the projected number of pilots to cover the summer schedule would not be met for 2013. Running a cadetship wont change this and I am reasonably sure that the model of this year's cadetship will not be followed.

I do wonder where you got your information from. I can guarantee that none of the cadets have dropped out at all, there is standard is very high and all 20 are still going very strong. If anything the quality of them is slightly ahead of the curve. If there is any issue regarding some them not getting back on time would be because the school has only 1 simulator for them to all do their MCC in so obviously this will affect the times that they come out at. Nothing to do with the quality of the cadets themselves.

I know this because I have a friend who is a student in FTE where the 20 cadets are and he spoke quite highly of them all! He guaranteed me that none have dropped out.

Hopefully the new chief Pilot will keep the cadetship route open so I can apply again this time around

XWB · 24-05-2012 6:14pm

I got a chill down my spine when I saw this was off again......

Suits wrote: »

Not this again!;)

I heard(and this was unofficial casual off the cuff comments over the last few months so it isnt 100%) that the performance of some of the cadets selected wasnt exactly what Aer Lingus hoped for. Number quoted was 4(again not 100%) that are expected to make it to TR on time and as Aer Lingus hoped. Some are lagging behind the schedule and word has it some washed out after a few weeks of theory. The fear was expressed that the projected number of pilots to cover the summer schedule would not be met for 2013. Running a cadetship wont change this and I am reasonably sure that the model of this year's cadetship will not be followed.

The number is more than 4, I think whoever told you that was being a little over the top with the guesstimation. It didnt run smoothly at all and some fell away but there is enough to make it a worthwhile effort.

Now basill mentioned a new chief pilot and I have a few pence of tip off on that. A lot of people seem to think that a new chief pilot may push for a yearly DE scheme(open and fair) and relax the odd and seemingly counter-productive process that has taken place over the last few years. This is because a lot of guys who have been in Aer Lingus a few years are not Irish and so want to move on/home and also a lot of the Irish guys are going for the money out East. It was described to me like a tree with a trunk and branches(made of cadets and senior FOs/Captains) and a lot of the last 5 years' intake are the leaves. They fall off every year to be replaced by new leaves that then fall off shortly later.
Aer Lingus needs a sustainable pool of pilots and their current model doesnt work toward that. A new chief pilot may have some fresh ideas.

I have a reasonable idea who is going to be appointed and have heard the view expressed from that quarter that the base needs to be more stable and the head pilot should be allowed lay down a set of criteria to HR. Currently this isnt the case much of the time. I dont believe much will change however. Head pilot v Head of HR is an age old battle and rarely does it result in a win for the flyboys. It would be nice to see a stop to those foreigners "coming over here and taking our jobs"(joke) but it seems to be the stable diet of HR and any new appointment would have a job on their hands to change well set attitudes.

I do wonder where you got your information from. I can guarantee that none of the cadets have dropped out at all, there is standard is very high and all 20 are still going very strong. If anything the quality of them is slightly ahead of the curve. If there is any issue regarding some them not getting back on time would be because the school has only 1 simulator for them to all do their MCC in so obviously this will affect the times that they come out at. Nothing to do with the quality of the cadets themselves.

I know this because I have a friend who is a student in FTE where the 20 cadets are and he spoke quite highly of them all! He guaranteed me that none have dropped out.

Hopefully the new chief Pilot will keep the cadetship route open so I can apply again this time around

When an airline runs a cadetship or any pilot supply scheme one of the conditions set out to the FTO is that they deliver the set number of pilots by a certain date. The capacity to do this is one of the criteria the airlines bases it's selection on. You are correct in what you say about FTE and there are many pilots trained through there that complain about the que to do an MCC. However Aer Lingus us a flag carrier(for another few years anyhow) and that is good currency for FTE. FTE would boot any students out of the sim to get the Aer Lingus guys through on time and so keep their promise and contract with Aer Lingus. Late delivery due to sim congestion could see the next batch of cadets(if there is one) go to Oxford or CTC etc. I would however be surprised if they actually did their MCC in FTE and didnt do it in the Aer Lingus sim at Simtech where they could weave SOPs etc into it with Aer Lingus instructors.
Your friend is one of the cadets I would assume as from what I have seen of cadetships with Aer Lingus they are kept sealed off from other students so as to keep them on the straight and narrow for the airline. If your friend isnt one of them he or she must be taking notes and reporting back to you as the level of info they have reported is quite substantial!;)

abdu_lapua · 24-05-2012 6:35pm

XWB wrote: »

When an airline runs a cadetship or any pilot supply scheme one of the conditions set out to the FTO is that they deliver the set number of pilots by a certain date. The capacity to do this is one of the criteria the airlines bases it's selection on. You are correct in what you say about FTE and there are many pilots trained through there that complain about the que to do an MCC. However Aer Lingus us a flag carrier(for another few years anyhow) and that is good currency for FTE. FTE would boot any students out of the sim to get the Aer Lingus guys through on time and so keep their promise and contract with Aer Lingus. Late delivery due to sim congestion could see the next batch of cadets(if there is one) go to Oxford or CTC etc. I would however be surprised if they actually did their MCC in FTE and didnt do it in the Aer Lingus sim at Simtech where they could weave SOPs etc into it with Aer Lingus instructors.
Your friend is one of the cadets I would assume as from what I have seen of cadetships with Aer Lingus they are kept sealed off from other students so as to keep them on the straight and narrow for the airline. If your friend isnt one of them he or she must be taking notes and reporting back to you as the level of info they have reported is quite substantial!;)

No my friend is not one of the lucky 20. and they aer lingus cadets are not in a prison locked up between classes to hide them from people talking to them. Its a school everyone gets on with everyone. I dont know where u got that from!!!
with regards doing MCC back in dublin, isnt MCC part of the integrated course so therefore to complete the syllabus of training they would have to do it in FTE. I would be very interested to see how the school would kick other students out so AerLingus cadets would get ahead of them, I dont think the likes of BA, and Cityjet and Emirates would be too pleased to know that a little airline from Ireland was getting in the way of their cadets coming out and emirates have probably 100 times the amount of money invested in FTE than Aer Lingus ever will have. Its gonna be first come first serve.

xflyer · 24-05-2012 6:40pm

Rumour and counter rumour? Surely the cadets are still in their theory stage? Or at best very early flight training.

Can't see how the MCC is an issue at this very early stage either, indeed it could be done in Simtech if if comes right down to it.

I'll have to consult my 'deep throat' in EI.

There's bound to be some fallouts, not everyone has the right stuff to use a cliche.

I AM IRONMAN · 24-05-2012 6:42pm

Suits, XWB... comedy gold! Fantastic! Keep your imaginations rolling there - what ya' gonna dream up next?!!!!!

abdu_lapua · 24-05-2012 6:45pm

I think some of them are in the flying stage already, believe there is 2 groups so first group are flying.

Has there been any info inside EI about a Cadetship or is it going to be DE again.

View Profile · 24-05-2012 6:49pm

I can tell you there would be a rake of FR FO's happy to take a right seat in EI at any time if the DE goes ahead again.

A320 · 24-05-2012 6:53pm

I cant wait until Bearcat reads this,the popcorn is on!!!!!

abdu_lapua · 24-05-2012 7:11pm

To be honest I just want to know if it gonna run again, not to have a great big discussion of the quality of cadets or how many are gonna drop out.

XWB · 24-05-2012 7:21pm

abdu_lapua wrote: »

No my friend is not one of the lucky 20. and they aer lingus cadets are not in a prison locked up between classes to hide them from people talking to them. Its a school everyone gets on with everyone. I dont know where u got that from!!!
with regards doing MCC back in dublin, isnt MCC part of the integrated course so therefore to complete the syllabus of training they would have to do it in FTE. I would be very interested to see how the school would kick other students out so AerLingus cadets would get ahead of them, I dont think the likes of BA, and Cityjet and Emirates would be too pleased to know that a little airline from Ireland was getting in the way of their cadets coming out and emirates have probably 100 times the amount of money invested in FTE than Aer Lingus ever will have. Its gonna be first come first serve.

When an airline puts money into you be it 20k or 20p they will want you doing things by their rules and failure to do so may lead to a no tea and biscuits meeting with the training department at Aer Lingus.
If Aer Lingus want the MCC done in Dublin it will be done in Dublin. Your MEIR gives you a multi prop rating and beyond that I dont think the MCC is too tied into the integrated model. It would be gotten around if the airline wanted to.
I wasnt suggesting that FTE kick other airline cadets out of MCC slots, I was suggesting that they would kick people who were doing on their own bat with no ties to an airline.

Suits · 24-05-2012 7:23pm

I AM IRONMAN wrote: »

Suits, XWB... comedy gold! Fantastic! Keep your imaginations rolling there - what ya' gonna dream up next?!!!!!

Who's got an alter ego?? Go on own up!:rolleyes:

abdu_lapua · 24-05-2012 8:12pm

Ah this forum is abit of a joke. Good Luck

NewSigGuy · 24-05-2012 10:19pm

XWB wrote: »

I got a chill down my spine when I saw this was off again......

The number is more than 4, I think whoever told you that was being a little over the top with the guesstimation. It didnt run smoothly at all and some fell away but there is enough to make it a worthwhile effort.

I have a reasonable idea who is going to be appointed and have heard the view expressed from that quarter that the base needs to be more stable and the head pilot should be allowed lay down a set of criteria to HR. Currently this isnt the case much of the time. I dont believe much will change however. Head pilot v Head of HR is an age old battle and rarely does it result in a win for the flyboys. It would be nice to see a stop to those foreigners "coming over here and taking our jobs"(joke) but it seems to be the stable diet of HR and any new appointment would have a job on their hands to change well set attitudes.

When an airline runs a cadetship or any pilot supply scheme one of the conditions set out to the FTO is that they deliver the set number of pilots by a certain date. The capacity to do this is one of the criteria the airlines bases it's selection on. You are correct in what you say about FTE and there are many pilots trained through there that complain about the que to do an MCC. However Aer Lingus us a flag carrier(for another few years anyhow) and that is good currency for FTE. FTE would boot any students out of the sim to get the Aer Lingus guys through on time and so keep their promise and contract with Aer Lingus. Late delivery due to sim congestion could see the next batch of cadets(if there is one) go to Oxford or CTC etc. I would however be surprised if they actually did their MCC in FTE and didnt do it in the Aer Lingus sim at Simtech where they could weave SOPs etc into it with Aer Lingus instructors.
Your friend is one of the cadets I would assume as from what I have seen of cadetships with Aer Lingus they are kept sealed off from other students so as to keep them on the straight and narrow for the airline. If your friend isnt one of them he or she must be taking notes and reporting back to you as the level of info they have reported is quite substantial!;)

Bluffer..

NewSigGuy · 24-05-2012 10:20pm

Suits wrote: »

Not this again!;)

I heard(and this was unofficial casual off the cuff comments over the last few months so it isnt 100%) that the performance of some of the cadets selected wasnt exactly what Aer Lingus hoped for. Number quoted was 4(again not 100%) that are expected to make it to TR on time and as Aer Lingus hoped. Some are lagging behind the schedule and word has it some washed out after a few weeks of theory. The fear was expressed that the projected number of pilots to cover the summer schedule would not be met for 2013. Running a cadetship wont change this and I am reasonably sure that the model of this year's cadetship will not be followed.

Now basill mentioned a new chief pilot and I have a few pence of tip off on that. A lot of people seem to think that a new chief pilot may push for a yearly DE scheme(open and fair) and relax the odd and seemingly counter-productive process that has taken place over the last few years. This is because a lot of guys who have been in Aer Lingus a few years are not Irish and so want to move on/home and also a lot of the Irish guys are going for the money out East. It was described to me like a tree with a trunk and branches(made of cadets and senior FOs/Captains) and a lot of the last 5 years' intake are the leaves. They fall off every year to be replaced by new leaves that then fall off shortly later.
Aer Lingus needs a sustainable pool of pilots and their current model doesnt work toward that. A new chief pilot may have some fresh ideas.

Suits you need to stop listening to other bluffers..

AL Cadet programme

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