Holiday booked before getting job - Help needed ASAP

NicoleL88

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

Here's how I read you OP.

You have holidays booked.

You take an interview.

You are offered a job

They want you not to take time off

You want to take time off

But you are not employed there yet (June 7th) so they offer you the choice - job or no job.

So, they owe you nothing. You are not employed by them and have no contract with them. There is no obligation on a business to honour anything that pre-exists the employment which might affect it. You likewise do not have any obligation to work those days - you are still not an employee.

Long/short: If you insist on the holiday you cannot have the job. You personal circumstance is no concern of theirs (remember, you are not an employee yet).

I thought I was being perfectly clear???
I had the holidays booked, I stated these dates three times, they said that it was fine and called to confirm it the third time. They're now completely revoking what they said. I signed a pre-contract at the interview which I'm pretty sure had those dates on it. I don't know how to get my hands on a copy. I accepted the job yesterday but said I would be doing all I could to sort this out as it was their fault.

I'm getting annoyed at the posters who are implying I'm putting swanning off to Venice over a "stable job". It's the principle of the matter now. I rang the Team Leader this morning who was very nice and said he would look into it and contact me asap.

HR bitch rang me and had an absolute freak out when I told her I was waiting to hear back from this guy and cut me off mid sentence and said "Well I'm going to contact ***** you had no purpose going to him". As well as this she said "I've given you 24 hours to decide (which she hasn't)... so you're turning down the job? Well you have decide now, we can't keep waiting for you... Who told you to contact the team leader? What's the employees name? We've been more than generous (Total joke)...

She was borderline abusive.

Edit: Mrs Byrne, its not about hearing what I want to hear. I'm saying I would expect a company to treat prospective employees with more respect than this. I'm waiting for a call back, its been an hour.

RedXIV

The question here though is do you really want to start rocking the boat in this company with all these people who are far more established than you, especially when your partner is employed there too?

I know its irritating OP but you pushing and shoving against everyone and making enemies at the start of your employment is not a great way to go into a job.

NicoleL88

I realize that but I'm not trying to make enemies. They told me one thing, now I'm being told another. 99 companies out of 100 will honour pre-booked holidays seeing as a lot of money has obviously been spent.

I'm simply doing all I can to try to figure this out. It's this HR cow that's being absolutely horrible and not even trying to smooth the situation over.

Mr. Presentable

NicoleL88 wrote: »

I realize that but I'm not trying to make enemies. They told me one thing, now I'm being told another. 99 companies out of 100 will honour pre-booked holidays seeing as a lot of money has obviously been spent.

I'm simply doing all I can to try to figure this out. It's this HR cow that's being absolutely horrible and not even trying to smooth the situation over.

You are really getting off on the wrong foot The correct thing would be for you to put off taking their job offer until you return from holiday. Calling future colleagues "cow" and "bitch" is not the way forward.

Oh, 99% of companies would certainly not honour prebooked holidays, regardless of money spent. There is no requirement on them to do so, and whether or not they pay for the time off they still have a cost implication put on them, which they should not have to bear.

A pre-contract is not a contract.

BostonB

TBH it should like they have a Power mad HR person. Perhaps the rest of the company isn't like that.

In my experience spend most of the time trying to find ways of justifying their existence.

NicoleL88

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

You are really getting off on the wrong foot The correct thing would be for you to put off taking their job offer until you return from holiday. Calling future colleagues "cow" and "bitch" is not the way forward.

Oh, 99% of companies would certainly not honour prebooked holidays, regardless of money spent. There is no requirement on them to do so, and whether or not they pay for the time off they still have a cost implication put on them, which they should not have to bear.

A pre-contract is not a contract.

Ahh, I can't put off taking the offer for almost two months. She basically threatened me on the phone saying decide now or we'll get someone else, strange since I was told that I was being hired for my skills, experience and excellent interview.

And YES, the majority of companies DO honor pre-booked holidays.

the varg

Interesting thread.

Op you should be listening to what MrsBryne is telling you. Unfortunately you know the choice you have to make. The company even though they said it was fine to take the time, can change their minds, they don't owe you anything.
A little example..in my previous job I had a week in USA booked. I cleared it with my boss who said fine. Only problem was his brother who was a c*nt was also boss. When he heard he said no way too busy yada yada yada. Had to cancel :mad: All worked out well in the end, the b*llix made me redundant soon after the incident, I got a big payoff and now I got a better job:D
You have no legal comebacks or anything of that nature. You say 99 out of 100 companies would honour your holiday and yes your are right but that is goodwill, they do not have to honour holidays. Holiday leave(when it is taken) is at the employers discretion, as my example shows..
So you think you are in a sh*tty situ, yep you probably are but welcome to life. You choice is simple.
BTW word to wise you may not be aiming to make enemies but you sure ain't winning friends if you do decide to go to work for this company..
Good luck either way!

inforfun

Op,

You can try to convince them to give you your holidays but it would very much surprise me if they give in in the end.

5,6 years ago? Yes they probable would have because there were more jobs than people and lots of companies were already glad with someone who could tie his or her own shoelaces.
At the moment there is 450.000 out of a job and i am pretty sure that this company is convinced one of the 450.000 is just as skilled, experienced and capable of giving a great interview as you are.

You will be a winner here. But it will only be 1 price, either the holiday or the job.

Babooshka

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

You are really getting off on the wrong foot The correct thing would be for you to put off taking their job offer until you return from holiday. Calling future colleagues "cow" and "bitch" is not the way forward.

Oh, 99% of companies would certainly not honour prebooked holidays, regardless of money spent. There is no requirement on them to do so, and whether or not they pay for the time off they still have a cost implication put on them, which they should not have to bear.

A pre-contract is not a contract.

I agree on the name calling thing, it solves nothing at all.

But I beg to differ on your opinion about companies not honouring pre-booked holidays. Yes there is no requirement on them but lots do accomodate. I have experienced two jobs whereby I have had holidays booked and they did not have any problem with it. If they did have a problem I would have had to weigh it up of course, but I'd base my decision on both the circumstances of the company but also, and importantly their attitude towards the request in the first place. My boyfriend started a new job a couple of months back and needed time off, which was also agreed. It's not a rarity at all.

Most people are accomodating and will do what they can even if they're not bound by law to do it. But this current climate seems to be bringing the petty mindedness out of the woodwork in lots of places from what I am hearing, so they can lord it over employees and throw the "I don't have to, we're not bound by law to do it" line, without any understanding that there is a trust process involved and in getting the best out of your employees.

A secure and happy company will see that, same as any happy employee who is paid up to 5 o'clock will sometimes stay till 8 without expecting extra pay to make a deadline for the company. It's like any relationship, and sometimes honoring something without it being written law is practiced by both employees and employers. Good, "grown up" companies know this. Do you really think that this company who offered this person a job cannot survive without her for three days, and that the company or anyone in there will suffer to any great extent if she gets her holiday? People shouting "they don't have to give it to her" gets on my nerves, we know they don't have to, you have to look at it from a bigger picture than that to see how working relationships begin and grow.


I feel sorry for anyone who is managed by robots who can't see that much and I would try to avoid working under people like that at all costs.

CiaranC

I cannot believe nobody has said this.

Tell them "Fair Enough", you accept that you cant have the leave. Work away, take their money. Work till the 19th of July, then quit. Give them a weeks notice if you are feeling generous.

You will probably even have found something else by then.

Companies are not people. They will use you for financial gain, with no thoughts to your "feelings". They owe you nothing. But this works both ways. You owe them nothing either.

NicoleL88

That was going to be my Plan B. Thanks Ciaran.

Mr. Presentable

Babooshka wrote: »

I agree on the name calling thing, it solves nothing at all.

But I beg to differ on your opinion about companies not honouring pre-booked holidays. Yes there is no requirement on them but lots do accomodate. I have experienced two jobs whereby I have had holidays booked and they did not have any problem with it. If they did have a problem I would have had to weigh it up of course, but I'd base my decision on both the circumstances of the company but also, and importantly their attitude towards the request in the first place. My boyfriend started a new job a couple of months back and needed time off, which was also agreed. It's not a rarity at all.
Most people are accomodating and will do what they can even if they're not bound by law to do it.


I feel sorry for anyone who is managed by robots who can't see that much and I would try to avoid working under people like that at all costs.

To be fair I didn't say it was a rarity, only that to say it was all but standard practice (99/100) is incorrect. I work in HR systems for organisations of all sizes across the island of Ireland and know of what I speak. Money and resources are tight in business at the moment and none can afford to be without key members.

As I said, the best solution is for the OP to postpone joining the company until she is free of other obligations. It would be a good compromise.

Compromise is a two way street - does not mean one person gets to do the taking and the other has to yield.

professore

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

Here's how I read you OP.

You have holidays booked.

You take an interview.

You are offered a job

They want you not to take time off

You want to take time off

But you are not employed there yet (June 7th) so they offer you the choice - job or no job.

So, they owe you nothing. You are not employed by them and have no contract with them. There is no obligation on a business to honour anything that pre-exists the employment which might affect it. You likewise do not have any obligation to work those days - you are still not an employee.

Long/short: If you insist on the holiday you cannot have the job. You personal circumstance is no concern of theirs (remember, you are not an employee yet).

All true, but they are assholes. If you really need the job then take it but leave at the first available opportunity with the minimum of legal notice.

Babooshka

CiaranC wrote: »

I cannot believe nobody has said this.

Tell them "Fair Enough", you accept that you cant have the leave. Work away, take their money. Work till the 19th of July, then quit. Give them a weeks notice if you are feeling generous.

You will probably even have found something else by then.

Companies are not people. They will use you for financial gain, with no thoughts to your "feelings". They owe you nothing. But this works both ways. You owe them nothing either.

Spoken like a true HR Manager :D:D

mrsbyrne

Babooshka wrote: »

I agree on the name calling thing, it solves nothing at all.

But I beg to differ on your opinion about companies not honouring pre-booked holidays. Yes there is no requirement on them but lots do accomodate. I have experienced two jobs whereby I have had holidays booked and they did not have any problem with it. If they did have a problem I would have had to weigh it up of course, but I'd base my decision on both the circumstances of the company but also, and importantly their attitude towards the request in the first place. My boyfriend started a new job a couple of months back and needed time off, which was also agreed. It's not a rarity at all.

Most people are accomodating and will do what they can even if they're not bound by law to do it. But this current climate seems to be bringing the petty mindedness out of the woodwork in lots of places from what I am hearing, so they can lord it over employees and throw the "I don't have to, we're not bound by law to do it" line, without any understanding that there is a trust process involved and in getting the best out of your employees.

A secure and happy company will see that, same as any happy employee who is paid up to 5 o'clock will sometimes stay till 8 without expecting extra pay to make a deadline for the company. It's like any relationship, and sometimes honoring something without it being written law is practiced by both employees and employers. Good, "grown up" companies know this. Do you really think that this company who offered this person a job cannot survive without her for three days, and that the company or anyone in there will suffer to any great extent if she gets her holiday? People shouting "they don't have to give it to her" gets on my nerves, we know they don't have to, you have to look at it from a bigger picture than that to see how working relationships begin and grow.


I feel sorry for anyone who is managed by robots who can't see that much and I would try to avoid working under people like that at all costs.

i totally concur with you, but the OP asked from the get-go if she has any legal rights in this matter. she doesnt, i told her that, end of. Posts expressing support and sympathy maybe comforting and we all know that a good employer will try and accomadate a valued emploee were possible, but if the Team Leader decides to back the HR department up today there is nothing the employee can do about it. hopefully she will get a positive response from him/her, but if she doesnt, thems the breaks:(

inforfun

Babooshka wrote: »

Do you really think that this company who offered this person a job cannot survive without her for three days, and that the company or anyone in there will suffer to any great extent if she gets her holiday?

Survive? Probably.

But this company is hiring because they need someone and not just for the fun of it, right?
We entering the summer months where people go on holidays so i think that she might actually be really needed those 3 days to keep things running smooth.

A big part in OP's situation is also the time of the year.
I doubt, if this would be happening in october/november that there would be a problem for her to have those days off.

mrsbyrne

NicoleL88 wrote: »

That was going to be my Plan B. Thanks Ciaran.

how will you then avoid giving them as a reference?

Babooshka

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

To be fair I didn't say it was a rarity, only that to say it was all but standard practice (99/100) is incorrect. I work in HR systems for organisations of all sizes across the island of Ireland and know of what I speak. Money and resources are tight in business at the moment and none can afford to be without key members.

As I said, the best solution is for the OP to postpone joining the company until she is free of other obligations. It would be a good compromise.

Compromise is a two way street - does not mean one person gets to do the taking and the other has to yield.

I said it happens a lot. I am sure you know what you're talking about, but you said 99% of companies would not honour pre-booked holidays and the last two jobs I have had (in the last 3 years during this recession) did honour them so I must have just been extremely lucky then so, and my boyfriend, we must do the lotto this week so .

I know compromise is a two way street ...hence my example of staying late at work as lots of people do for no extra pay because they are in the habit of giving something unwritten as well. As I said, you have to look at the circumstances, the facts AND the behaviour and attitude and make a decision based on your own integrity after that.

Babooshka

inforfun wrote: »

Survive? Probably.

But this company is hiring because they need someone and not just for the fun of it, right?
We entering the summer months where people go on holidays so i think that she might actually be really needed those 3 days to keep things running smooth.

A big part in OP's situation is also the time of the year.
I doubt, if this would be happening in october/november that there would be a problem for her to have those days off.

Of course, but do they need someone or do they need the OP? That's the crux of it really. If you really wanted the specific person then you'd probably compromise. But if there were 25 thousand people out there with the same skills who weren't going on holidays then you'd pick one of them.
I guess that's why very specialised people in their field can dictate to companies moreso.

There's no right and wrong, only what's wrong for your own value system. If it was me personally I'd turn the job down as I'd feel they weren't the right people for me to work with if they couldn't understand I had my holiday booked before I committed to working for them. But that is just me and others won't see it that way.

CiaranC

mrsbyrne wrote: »

how will you then avoid giving them as a reference?

What? Shes only going to be working there for 2 months. She can say she was in Australia or South America like half the rest of the country. Also, no company will request a reference from your current employer if you are looking to move.

People here have some bizarre notions about obligations to companies. If this company (sounds like a multinational) hired her despite the fact that they were prepared to give themselves the headache of dealing with this holiday situation, she'll get another handy enough.

Also, I wouldnt worry about "notice periods" either.

lizlemon

While I sympathise that it's a real pain that you might have to cancel your holiday, I have to say I have very little sympathy for the OP here.

You need to decide which is more important to you, getting a job and working for a living or going on holidays for a few days? Just because they originally agreed that they would be able to accommodate the time off doesn't mean anything. Things change. If you want a job with them you'll need to work the time they need to you work.

You don't understand their capacity needs, I'm sure there is a reason why they can't give you the time off. There are probably established employees that have worked up their leave and need time off over those dates and you're demanding that they give you time off over them? Of course they are going to want to hire someone who is more accommodating!!

Also, going over the H.R contact persons head and going directly to a Team Manager within in the company was a really bad move. I can totally understand why she would have been so irate that you would have done this. It's completely unprofessional. I will be amazed if they actually hire you now!! There are so many people looking for work at the moment, who are willing to be really accommodating and gracious at being offered a permanent job. I honestly can't see how you can't see that you are completely screwing yourself over with the company by acting this way.

Babooshka

mrsbyrne wrote: »

i totally concur with you, but the OP asked from the get-go if she has any legal rights in this matter. she doesnt, i told her that, end of. Posts expressing support and sympathy maybe comforting and we all know that a good employer will try and accomadate a valued emploee were possible, but if the Team Leader decides to back the HR department up today there is nothing the employee can do about it. hopefully she will get a positive response from him/her, but if she doesnt, thems the breaks:(

Yes I agree with you. I gave my answer saying that legally she hadn't a leg to stand on and then I gave my personal view, that's all. It isn't an either/or answer, fact followed by feeling on it were included. Times are tough for everyone and it is hard out there indeed. Anyhoo I don't want to go around in circles so that's pretty much it from me

mrsbyrne

Babooshka wrote: »

Yes I agree with you. I gave my answer saying that legally she hadn't a leg to stand on and then I gave my personal view, that's all. It isn't an either/or answer, fact followed by feeling on it were included. Times are tough for everyone and it is hard out there indeed. Anyhoo I don't want to go around in circles so that's pretty much it from me

and me babooshka, nothing more to be said really.

Captain Commie

what im still waiting to be cleared up is. At any point during the interview process did they tell you that you COULD have the time off?

if not then this is all much ado about nothing really

Chinafoot

Sorry OP, but saying "ok" in response to you confirming the dates of your holiday is not the same as "that's no problem". How you are failing to see the difference is beyond me. They asked for the dates 3 times BEFORE they offered you the job on the condition that you don't take the holiday. Its really that simple. They didn't agree to give you leave.

The HR manager sounds like a wagon but you were completely out of line going to the team leader.

She basically threatened me on the phone saying decide now or we'll get someone else, strange since I was told that I was being hired for my skills, experience and excellent interview.

Its an employers market Nicole and if you think there aren't plenty of people out there with similar skills, experience and excellent interview then you are seriously kidding yourself.

Yes its crap that you have a holiday booked, and its crap that they won't agree to give you the time off, but they don't have to. You're coming across with this amazingly undeserved sense of entitlement for a job you don't even have yet. You have been offered the job on the condition that you are not going to go on holidays 2 weeks after you start. They are well within their rights to do that just as you are well within your rights to decline the offer.

NicoleL88

I am NOT going on a holiday two weeks after I start! It's a month and a half after I start and it was pre-booked and I'm asking them (and have asked) for three days. They were completely aware of this and YES they did tell me it was no problem.

As I've said - like others - its the principle now. I have been treated disgracefully by this HR person when they have absolutely no right to do that, and ESPECIALLY since this company apparently prides itself on its strong relationships with their employees.

A lot of you are still going on about "Oh yes a holiday would be lovely" etc It was pre-booked and paid for, they knew about this, they STATED that it was fine. May the gods forgive me for having a life before this company offered AND GAVE me a position!

And no, to whoever said it was "completely unprofessional" of me to contact the Team Leader. An employee inside this company was told by their boss that that is who I should make contact with if I hope to solve it. And he was incredibly understanding and said he would try to sort it. I am perfectly entitled to pursue this.

Chinafoot

NicoleL88 wrote: »

I am NOT going on a holiday two weeks after I start! It's a month and a half after I start and it was pre-booked and I'm asking them (and have asked) for three days. They were completely aware of this and YES they did tell me it was no problem.

As I've said - like others - its the principle now. I have been treated disgracefully by this HR person when they have absolutely no right to do that, and ESPECIALLY since this company apparently prides itself on its strong relationships with their employees.

A lot of you are still going on about "Oh yes a holiday would be lovely" etc It was pre-booked and paid for, they knew about this, they STATED that it was fine. May the gods forgive me for having a life before this company offered AND GAVE me a position!

And no, to whoever said it was "completely unprofessional" of me to contact the Team Leader. An employee inside this company was told by their boss that that is who I should make contact with if I hope to solve it. And he was incredibly understanding and said he would try to sort it. I am perfectly entitled to pursue this.

Apologies on getting the date wrong. 2 weeks, 6 weeks it's pretty much the same to them. You'll be very new and most likely have just completed your training.

In your first post you said the following..

I got called for a phone interview for a company in Cork, one of the first questions they asked was "Do you have any upcoming holidays booked?" I said yes and gave them the exact dates. I was told "Ok".

"Ok" is an acknowledgement of the dates not a confirmation that it won't be a problem.

In the in-person interview I was asked the same question and was again told "Ok".

Again, not a confirmation that leave would be granted.

The day after the interview I was phoned and asked "Do you actually have a holiday booked on these dates?" I said yes and she said "Ok, its just that a few others have holidays booked on the same dates, but that's fine."

Again, not a confirmation as the job has not been offered to you. If your argument is "I was told in the interview/on the phone it wouldn't be a problem" then you're barking up the wrong tree. You weren't told that. Im sure if you had been told that you would have mentioned it in your first post, no?

The fact of the matter is you were offered the job on the condition that you do not take the holiday. You can either accept the job or you can keep your holiday.

Oh and in my experience OP, HR organise the details of hiring new staff. Going to a team leader to complain that you can't have your holiday if you take the job was unprofessional. As it calling the HR person names on a public message board in a thread that contains details that could easily identify you.

Welcome to the real world dear. It contains tough choices and you don't always get what you want. The fact that you're considering prioritising a 5 day holiday over a job with the state the employment market is in this country leads me to believe you have a lot of growing up to do. All the best.

lizlemon

NicoleL88 wrote: »

And no, to whoever said it was "completely unprofessional" of me to contact the Team Leader. An employee inside this company was told by their boss that that is who I should make contact with if I hope to solve it. And he was incredibly understanding and said he would try to sort it. I am perfectly entitled to pursue this.

I was at least one of the people who said it was unprofessional, and yes it was.

Your contact, as someone who is the process of applying for a job within the company, is the H.R person. The fact that you would get a contact from someone who is already working there, and go over H.R's head about this is totally out of line. I'm sure the person you spoke to was helpful, what could they do? You obviously rang and said so and so told me to ring you to help me sort this out.... You don't even work there. You're entitled to pursue it, but it's not a professional thing to do.

I don't mean to be mean about it, but you're acting as if this company owes you something. I'm sorry, I just don't get it.

JimiTime

the_syco wrote: »

Sorry, I meant that if they were petty like this, it may be worth checking the benefits that you were promised at the interview actually exist.

=-=

Look at the money you'll loose, versus the money you'll gain to be honest. It's not nice what they did, but as said, they hold the cards. Agree with BostonB as well; what will they be like next time you book holidays?

ah right. Sorry, i misunderstood you.

JimiTime

BostonB wrote: »

TBH it should like they have a Power mad HR person. Perhaps the rest of the company isn't like that.

In my experience spend most of the time trying to find ways of justifying their existence.

QFT!