SSAI winds up

Sparks

bunny shooter wrote: »

Yeah....

fourtycoats

In a democracy, it is numbers that count. That is why "National" bodies get formed. We had a " National" body. The formation of a "National" body implies compromise between the parties that make up such an organisation. The reason the SSAI has ceased to exist is that some of the component parties saw the "National" body as a threat to their independence of action and were not prepared to subjugate some of their own objectives in the interest of the common good. What is left is an emasculated milk cow(wonderful contradiction).

Tackleberrywho

fourtycoats wrote: »

In a democracy, it is numbers that count. That is why "National" bodies get formed. We had a " National" body. The formation of a "National" body implies compromise between the parties that make up such an organisation. The reason the SSAI has ceased to exist is that some of the component parties saw the "National" body as a threat to their independence of action and were not prepared to subjugate some of their own objectives in the interest of the common good. What is left is an emasculated milk cow(wonderful contradiction).

Democracy is the right to choose who speaks for you.

It's nice when who speaks for you was voted in by you.

Unlike some of the stercus verborum from some parties of late & concilia secreta

Rotary Chair, will mean all Parties have equal say
Very Democratic IMHO

And hopefully forge a way in the common interests of all

Bananaman

I don't get that - the 'chair' just chairs the meetings - they don't change into red tights in a phone box or anything

all parties getting an equal say is a function of the fact that all parties have an equal vote - and the processes and procedures to ensure that is true - namely the constitution

having any one individual having any sort of sway over whose voice is heard or 'interpreting' the constitution is what has us where we are - you have to take the politics out of it - you do that by taking the personalities out of it and make it a job which means it is irrelevant who is doing it - the rules means it mKes no difference

B'Man

Grizzly 45

Cutting to the chase.Is this good,bad,indifferent for Irish shooting??
Or is this more same o same o??

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

I don't get that - the 'chair' just chairs the meetings - they don't change into red tights in a phone box or anything

"just chairs the meeting" is brushing over the point that chairing a meeting properly is not a trivial or simple task. Especially not when you have people breaking rules and undermining efforts they're supposed to be supporting and trying to do end runs around the group. They may not need red tights, but it's not a job any trained monkey can do either.

having any one individual having any sort of sway over whose voice is heard or 'interpreting' the constitution is what has us where we are

That's not what's happened here.
What's happened here is that there were rules, and those rules were followed by all but a few, and that few breaking the rules made the entire situation untenable and things had to be wound up because otherwise, those few would have gotten into a position where they could have done more harm than the rest of us could live with.

you have to take the politics out of it - you do that by taking the personalities out of it and make it a job

1) Good luck with that. The people causing the problems have very persistent personalities.
2) You pay staff to do a job. We don't have the money to pay staff. So we're all volunteers. Which means that it's not possible to remove the politics by making it a job. Even if that alone would do it - which isn't a sure thing. I mean, trying to have paid staff has led to the ISC grant problems, as you know from last October B'man.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Cutting to the chase.Is this good,bad,indifferent for Irish shooting??
Or is this more same o same o??

Cutting to the chase, bad and avoidable.

Bananaman

Everyone is so positive ;-)

i do not agree with Sparks interpretation of events - I do not think all is rosy in the Garden - but I tend to look for opportunities

as usual there are far more mouthy people looking for reasons that the sky will fall - I'm sure if this involved handing out €500 notes - Sparks would want change

I for one, will look for ways that this can be of benefit - I am under no illusions that any attempt to replace useless feckers with competent people will be fought tooth and nail - but that is the fight worth having

As to people who do not want to contribute and prefer to throw up obstacles and whinge from the sidelines - good luck to them

B'Man

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

Everyone is so positive experienced

FYP.

i do not agree with Sparks interpretation of events - I do not think all is rosy in the Garden

You realise that you're agreeing with me then?

I'm sure if this involved handing out €500 notes - Sparks would want change

Just receipts.

But then, if more people looked for receipts, you'd have the one thing you really want here - an ISC grant - wouldn't you?

Grizzly 45

Sorry to intrrupt this litttle tete a tete again.:o
But I,and no doubt many others reading this are now totally lost as to wTF is going on.
Could I ask both of you,to just post why you Sparks thinks it is bad and avoidable,and Bman why it is good??
Not trying to backseat Mod here or anything..I'm just totally lost as to the original reasons why you are disagree ing and all the history hasnt helped to make it any clearer.
TIA
Grizz

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

why you Sparks thinks it is bad and avoidable

Bad because it means that having a coherent voice for a large group of shooting sports and having a single forum where representatives from those sports met regularly to talk formally is now a thing of the past; this affects the ISC grant, it affects the FCP, it affects pretty much all the dull and boring things that someone has to handle so that shooters can just shoot. We won't ever get to the point where we can have a single body handling all shooting for Ireland, for various reasons we've talked about many times before; but there's a difference between having three or four groups and having forty or fifty.



Avoidable because the reason it's happened is that people wouldn't stop pulling strokes like this one and worse (and yes, it did not stop with that one, it kept on happening and didn't stop).




On the other hand, if it succeeds in choking off the idiots who caused this mess and they have to give up with the politics and actually go do some shooting for once, then there could be a silver lining to all this - but it says a lot that you have to give up so much just to convince some folks to do what they say they love to do...
...and frankly, I think they're just going to treat this as carte blanche to go do direct runs at the PTB now. The last time that happened, they had no status because the SSAI represented them at the table; with the SSAI gone, that safeguard isn't there anymore. You read this thread Grizzly - do you think it's a good idea that that safeguard be removed?

bunny shooter

Sparks wrote: »

............

Just receipts.

But then, if more people looked for receipts, you'd have the one thing you really want here - an ISC grant - wouldn't you?

Subtle

Sparks

bunny shooter wrote: »

Subtle

Hard to be subtle when we've mentioned it on here before...

bunny shooter

"Subtle", in so far as a swift kick in the bollix is a subtle hint that I don't like ya

Sparks

Oh, it's not that bad bunny, I just dislike the act of being hypocritical, not the hypocrite themselves. They can always reform...

bunny shooter

And on that note I'm out of it

Bananaman

It's not a case of whether it is a good thing or not

as you said the history is boring but depending on whose propaganda you arelistening to you'll get a different version anyway.

The way I look at it is that it is a change - how good of a change I have no idea - but what was there was an unmitigated disaster with people jockeying for position and not doing anything whatsoever for the sports - so it can't have gotten any worse.

Why did it happen?
Because sh1te as it was the previous constitution had rules which were being enforced.
Becuase the gerrymandering that was going on prior to the AGM was not working.
Because shutting down and restarting an association under a different name worked the last time.
Because it was the only way the status quo could have been maintained (but it didn't work)

I would hope that they will
a) put a proper constitution in place
b) follow it this time
c) outline the goals for each year and fulfill them
d) cut out all the gerrymandering
e) ignore the jingoistic ravings that have been steering it of late

W any of that ihappen? Who knows?
Will it end up being of any benefit to shooters? Who knows?

Has it a chance of being better than what was there before? A bag of spuds would be better than what was there before?

B'Man

PS: Sorry for not replying sooner but I've been out shooting a competition since 9am - hence the early start - a few hundred rounds in the rain - beats the sh1t out of politics - EVERY day of the week.

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

as you said the history is boring

I think you need to listen more to Santyana on that topic.

Because sh1te as it was the previous constitution had rules which were being enforced.

If by "being enforced" you mean people were caught red-handed breaking them in ways that were damaging to the entire shooting community and which were purely motivated by self-interest - exactly what they were then turning round in public and accusing other people of doing (who weren't doing anything wrong, as it turned out).

Becuase the gerrymandering that was going on prior to the AGM was not working.

When gerrymandering is how you describe bringing a new NGB running a new centerfire pistol sport into the SSAI, after you yourself were so annoyed that the IPSA wasn't in the SSAI, I wind up questioning your motives.

Because shutting down and restarting an association under a different name worked the last time.

That wasn't what happened the last time, and it's not what happened this time.

Last time, voting rights and rules were ignored by the current NASRPC spokesperson to bring about a change in the association that broke almost every rule in the book;
This time, the association has in fact been shut down. A new, seperate, unconnected body which is not an association has been founded, but it's not a case of slapping a new label on an old thing.

Because it was the only way the status quo could have been maintained (but it didn't work)

Actually, there were other ways. Naming and shaming the causes of the problems backed up by the signed documents publicly available which point out their deeds would have been one. However, it was felt that shooters generally thought politics was boring and tended to forget even the most offensive acts after a month or so, so why bother when the offenders just kept on going and nothing changes because nobody cares?

b) follow it this time

That's rich.

d) cut out all the gerrymandering

And that's worse.

e) ignore the jingoistic ravings that have been steering it of late

And that's a bad joke.

Has it a chance of being better than what was there before? A bag of spuds would be better than what was there before?

Ha. So, would that be the bag of spuds that hit "reply to all" and accidentally told the Prinicipal Officer in the DoJ to F off? Or the bag of spuds that demanded a document be shown to the DoJ and then screamed blue murder when it was shown to the DoJ? Or the bag of spuds...

You know, I could go on like this for a while.

I think the point's made though. The people who caused this mess are incompetent. Their actions have already been decried by every shooter out there. We all know what they'd do with carte blanche because we've seen it. They wouldn't act to improve the sport, they just set things up so that they're in charge but don't have to do any work. Actual sports administration takes effort and hard work and competence, which these people either don't want to put in, or don't have to put in. You and I (because you're more well-informed than you admit to on here B'man) know some of the strokes that have been pulled and those still being pulled - and we both know shooting's very deep in the woods in this country as a result of all this. Left unchecked, these people are going to kill off their sports and then start coming after other sports. IPSC is currently gone, WA1500 has been recently weakened horribly, F-Class saw years of fighting for no reason, Vintage rifle just recently had a taste of all this, and every one of our sports has ISC grant problems - as in not getting grants for NGBs or for shooters - because of these strokes.

And now the SSAI's gone. Somehow I don't see the problem getting better after this.

Grizzly 45

And somwhere between those two arguements and differences of opinion lies the truth..With that,I'm off to the pub..;)

Bananaman

Hope you enjoyed the pub

It is important to remember that neither Sparks or I are privy to the details of what has gone on, or what is planned

all we are doing is giving our 'opinions' and doing a bit of sparring over them.

Neither of us had any input nor say in what the SSAI or now the FISA did or does - we are only observing.

Obviously this is all political - god help us all - so we are both (well I assume sparks is) being fed other peoples view of the world - and our opinion - which may seem to masquerade as knowledge, but is not - is coloured by that.

What I am saying is that the FISA is YOURS to do with as you will - it is MINE to do with as I will

I am a member of the NASRPC, which was a member of the the SSAI and is now a member of the FISA - so if I want to know what is going on I ask their National Committee - most of the people I meet on ranges all over the country are the same.

The Irish Pony Club, The National Rifle Association of Ireland, The National Silhouette Association of Ireland and Irish Target Sports are also members of the FISA.

If you are a member of one (or more) of those then ask their Elected officials - if you don't like what you hear then get them to change it *- at least you will have heard the truth - or at least their version of it - either way, their view should only involve what is good for shooting in general and benefit to their sports in particular - if it involves specific individuals, petty grievances, old hatreds, then I know I would not support it from the people I elected and would root them out at the next opportunity

I am fed up of people either doing nothing or actually doing the exactly wrong thing for spite or to ensure 'jimmy', 'curly' or 'moe' will not get their way - or to try to hide what Bert or Ernie did back in 63 - I don't care who gets their way, or how they did it - provided the 'job' gets done - if they were bold or dirtied their bib, then the rules, if they are followed, means they get rooted out and fend for themselves.

The cult of personality - which I know is the basis of all politics in Ireland - has us where we are - screw the personalities - you are the ones with the power, if you are a member of the appropriate associations - use it.

If you don't - well then let's wait ten years and whinge and complain about what should have happened - sparks can multi quoits the sh1t out of boards telling us all how he predicted the sky would fall and we can all blame each other

Remember now - this is just My Opinion - you have your own.

B'Man*

bunny shooter

Some of those in your own organisation need cleaning out first from what we've seen

Bananaman

From what you have been __told__ - you'll have __seen__ different. Important distinction.

but if you are a member of a member club - that is of course your perogative

B'Man

Rosahane

bunny shooter wrote: »

Some of those in your own organisation need cleaning out first from what we've seen

If you are a member of that organisation and have actual and factual knowledge of the actions that have taken place that is a valid opinion. If you are you will, no doubt have already communicated your opinion within the organisation.

If you are not, and are making assumptions from the partial and mainly one sided facts that have been promulgated on Boards you are doing nothing more than contributing to another's agenda and fostering the internicene strife that some would like to continue withinin the shooting community.

This is why many of us refuse to feed the flames!

bunny shooter

Oops ....................... have I hit a nerve :eek:

I was referring to this ...................

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=70217838

It hasn't been forgotten about & BTW neither has "the list"

Grizzly 45

My head!!:(Getting old! I used to be able to shake off hangovers like water!Guess I am finally going to have to cut my Jack Daniels with ..coke!:o:o
@bananna man.
I do realise that it is both yours and Sparks opinions only.Well worth reading opinionaries they are too.It is just that somtimes yer sparring clouds and confuses the original issue or question.Thats just my mild critique.:) Taking a few of your points in no particular order......

am fed up of people either doing nothing or actually doing the exactly wrong thing for spite or to ensure 'jimmy', 'curly' or 'moe' will not get their way - or to try to hide what Bert or Ernie did back in 63 - I don't care who gets their way, or how they did it - provided the 'job' gets done - if they were bold or dirtied their bib, then the rules, if they are followed, means they get rooted out and fend for themselves.

Couldnt agree 100%more...But that is an inherently bad Irish chacter fault.Everyone wants to be the big cheif,boss, most high poobah
.But dont want to carry the can for their decisions if they go wrong,and then when they do get to the exalted position of top dog,the best policy seems to be do nothing,just hold onto power for the powers sake.
And if Curly,Larry and Moe got you into the position in the first place are you going to not "repay the favour" whatever that might be??
Compounding this of course is it is all voulenteer positions,so no one can be sacked for incompetance,and can use the maryter cry of Im doing this for free..We do need badly a proper paid up leadership,that will be seen to do the job but that again opens another huge Pandoras box in the Irish shooting world.:(

The cult of personality - which I know is the basis of all politics in Ireland - has us where we are - screw the personalities - you are the ones with the power, if you are a member of the appropriate associations - use it.

Plus 1.But as you know the personality and opinion of people on what you say or do can be enough to start a petty grudge match and destroy good peoples chances of getting a position.We do love to be petty here.:rolleyes:
To conclude,both you and Sparks and lots of other folks raise 100% valid points about how the shoting world in Ireland should be run..I just never can understand how this never translates 90% of the time into positive action at comittee levels thussly pushing it up and onwards.:(:rolleyes:.

Bananaman

Mostly becuase people wait for it to happen at committee level

as you said these are volunteers elected to do the bidding of their electorate

they have no special powers, they have jobs, wives, husbands, kids, dogs & guns - they do not pull rabbits out of hats

too many people pay memberships, affiliations, dues, whatever and divest themselves of their responsibility to ensure a future for thei sports - they seem to think that by electing 'larry, curly and moe to the committee - all will be fine and sure if it's not we'll crucify them afterwards

well - that doesn't work - if you own a gun and take part in the shooting sports it is YOUR responsibility to ensure it has a future - not some committees - there are a lot of you and very few people on committees

most of their time will either be taken up by admistering the sports and ensuring you have sport in the here and mow - or politics, trying to ensure you have a sport in the future - but usually one will suffer because of the other - simply because there is not enough time in the evenings or weekends (the days are already gone with work and the occassiomal weekend on the range)

they should provide a focus - to centralised information, to direct mutiple activites, to manage the finances, to manage 'the message' - but they are not a milk nurse

moral of the story .......... More people need to get involved - not wait for the 'power rangers' to come to their rescue.

B'Man

bunny shooter

I have a "sporting" .22lr pistol.

I am not a member of a NASRPC affialiated club.

Yet your organisation's representatives writes to the DOJ and claims you represent me and many others like me

Tell me this, how can I or otherslike me, make sure that the signatories to that diabolical submission are not "re-elected" to a position where they can try the same ****e again?

Bananaman wrote: »

.........as you said these are volunteers elected to do the bidding of their electorate..........

So your telling us the entire membership of the NASRPC were behind that submission !

Bananaman

In answer to you first question : get you club to affiliate and make their voice heard - put out your own stall and see will you be elected

the NASRPCs members are clubs - not individuals

as far as I am aware the author of that document no longer has anytthing to do with the NASRPC - but holds a seat on the FCP, which was allotted to the SSAI - which should be of more concern becuase neither the NASRPC nor it's clubs know what they do.

There is nothing you or I can do to stop any individual putting in proposals without our sanction - hasn't sparks recently proposed a number of changes to the minister.

What we can do is contribute to the group to ensure that the group representation in fact represents the group.

Or keep whinging about the past until it's too late

B'Man

bunny shooter

Bananaman wrote: »

In answer to you first question : get you club to affiliate and make their voice heard - put out your own stall and see will you be elected

Personally, I don't see any advantage in it..........................

Bananaman wrote: »

the NASRPCs members are clubs - not individuals

But the club members elect their representatives to the NASRPC otherwise what have you been posting about above

Bananaman wrote: »

as far as I am aware the author of that document no longer has anytthing to do with the NASRPC - but holds a seat on the FCP, which was allotted to the SSAI - which should be of more concern becuase neither the NASRPC nor it's clubs know what they do.

There were 2 x authors and 2 x "approvers". So what about the other 3?

Bananaman wrote: »

There is nothing you or I can do to stop any individual putting in proposals without our sanction - hasn't sparks recently proposed a number of changes to the minister.

Agreed BUT he didn't submit it on NTSA letterheaded paper and if I submit something it will be as an individual not claiming to represent a group of shooters, without their knowledge, apparently. And he posted it here with the reply.

Bananaman wrote: »

What we can do is contribute to the group to ensure that the group representation in fact represents the group.

Easier said than done, obviously.

Bananaman wrote: »

Or keep whinging about the past until it's too late

To some it is too late

Sparks

bunny shooter wrote: »

Tell me this, how can I or otherslike me, make sure that the signatories to that diabolical submission are not "re-elected" to a position where they can try the same ****e again?

Interesting question since one of the signatories to that submission is currently the chairman of FISA...