Theory Of Mind (C&C Sort Of)

Eirebear

Howdy y'all.

Below is a link to a set of images i have put together for my final college project this year, please have a look.

I'm not particularly looking for technical/photographers eye comment with this one, as the shots are handed in and there aint much i can do about it - rather i'd like to know which images, if any, garnered a reaction - be that bood or bad.

The idea behind the project was to cover the subjects face, and explore how much the communication of a photograph relies on this.

We tend to attribute human emotions, backstory etc to the subject of a portrait (if succesful) - what i was trying to do here, was figure out how much of that feeling was put there by the photographers decisions through lighting, pose, angle etc and how much of it comes down to the viewers state of mind and situation when viewing the image.

I have uploaded the images as they are being displayed - so sorry if the blank white space is a wee bit annoying, but i wanted both images of each subject on screen at the same time to keep it as close to the actual finished project as possible.

Thanks for looking!

(Click the image and you'll see the set)

Mountainsandh

Hi Eirebear, the one I reacted the most to, and I think I remember seeing it before somewhere on here, is the man in the playground.
Maybe it's the number of clues in the pic (the playground, he's holding a doll, the empty swing in action), and the fact that one of the questions I would ask myself as regards peadophiles is : "what does a peadophile look like ? could one spot one ? could you tell from their face that they are or aren't a peadophile ? " ... the mask fits in to this thinking process. For me it makes the pic less uncomfortable to look at than the others, where the mask cannot be explained.
The mask intrudes on the others, but it fits in to the playground one.

DotOrg

i personally find the expression of the mask very distracting. for me it isn't asking the questions of which your project was looking to find. I would like to have seen the project down with other methods of obscuring the facial expression.

your question was, which photos get a reaction, good or bad, i'm afraid none really provoke much reaction in me.

i think: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mcdougallphotography/5719006923/in/photostream/is the best aesthetic image, but the point behind it doesn't really work on me

Eirebear

Cheers guys.

The fact that that you both focus on the mask in itself a reaction, both in slightly different ways, its all helpful

Thanks guys for the feedback.

Interestingly photographers seem to react in entirely different ways to the people i had anonymously assess it (I had the set displayed on the walls of a friends office for a couple of days, in order to get an assesment from people who dont know me or anything about me).

magicbastarder

i think the fact that they're obviously posed, and artificial in that sense, makes the mask less jarring. if they were shot as candids (or purporting to be), it might change how they come across quite a bit.

spinandscribble

as you have each image set paired up as it were, I feel the need to decide how they work together as pairs. It appears to me that the one of the left is supposedly the subject in their natural environment and the image on the right is the same feeling singled out in the studio but like you said exploring the decisions and set up the photographer makes.

This jars me because the images on the left are very staged and purposely lit, as are the images on the right. they're giving me the same thing and I don't see the purpose to having both together. They're doing the same thing for me, they're repeating the same thing.

I like the image of the man on the bridge with the hood if i was to pick one but the re-staging on the right irritates me because that idea of the pairing isn't working for me. I don't think you need it to get your point across and weaken the impression you're intending to give imo. It almost appears as if you're unwilling to commit to one approach or the other. I get you're trying to compare the photographs set up to what we see naturally but the photos on the left feel as staged as the ones on the right. If thats what you're going for fair enough.

artyeva

although i absolutely see what you were going for, i think for me the choice of mask could be better. the mask itself has a facial expression, simply because it has facial features and its features kind of look male, and for me that's a little distracting.

Mayo Miss

Interesting photos.

My take on this is that the (creepy) mask is highlighted in all the photos making this the subject of the photos.

Because of this I am looking at the mask in relation to the person wearing it and it's surroundings rather than ignoring the mask and looking beyond it to see what the photo is saying.

...... now, that makes sense in my mind but when typed out might seem confusing..... lol

Mountainsandh

Mayo Miss wrote: »

Interesting photos.

My take on this is that the (creepy) mask is highlighted in all the photos making this the subject of the photos.

Because of this I am looking at the mask in relation to the person wearing it and it's surroundings rather than ignoring the mask and looking beyond it to see what the photo is saying.

...... now, that makes sense in my mind but when typed out might seem confusing..... lol

+ 1, and it does make a lot of sense !

AnCatDubh

artyeva wrote: »

although i absolutely see what you were going for, i think for me the choice of mask could be better. the mask itself has a facial expression, simply because it has facial features and its features kind of look male, and for me that's a little distracting.

Cool concept for a project.

To build on the point above, I also think, the mask is quite overpowering. It is almost like selective colouring - dropping everything into black and white with a yellow or red flower perhaps somewhere in the image. It doesn't matter thus what happens in the photograph, the eye and the mind turns to the colourful flower. Similarly but in the reverse, the mind and eye turns to the white mask.

Now if it had been a HDR'd swan that was in the picture then things would be different

melekalikimaka

Eirebear wrote: »

The idea behind the project was to cover the subjects face, and explore how much the communication of a photograph relies on this.

this i get

Eirebear wrote: »

We tend to attribute human emotions, backstory etc to the subject of a portrait (if succesful)

but could you explain this a bit more to me?

Eirebear

melekalikimaka wrote: »

but could you explain this a bit more to me?

When we looks at a photographic portrait, our tendancy is to see the person in it and begin to project feelings, emotions and history into that - despite the fact that we know that this representation of a human is in fact under the complete control of a photographer, right down to the slightest things such as facial expression etc.

We tend to see a portrait of (The subject), rather than a portrait by (The photographer) and as such any emotion conveyed by the image, is attributed to the subject, rather than the photographer - or indeed the viewer.

From reading up on things like Empathy and Theory of Mind, along with other psychological stuff i found that the facial expression of a person is often the major indicator as to how we react to them in any given situation, and it seemed a safe assumption to take that this would also be the case within photography and based the project on this assumption and covered up the face with the plainest, most expressionless mask i could find to try and read how people picked up on things.
(Remember however, i am a photographer - not a psychologist, and i could indeed me miles off the mark)

To test this i sent the images to a friends office, where they were hung for a couple of days and left some short questionnaires to try and guage peoples reading of the images.


Anyway, thanks for the feedback folks - this is a project (with the neccesary adjustments) i want to keep going wether or not it makes the grade at college, so any feedback is highly appreciated so that i can tailor it.

melekalikimaka

Eirebear wrote: »

When we looks at a photographic portrait, our tendancy is to see the person in it and begin to project feelings, emotions and history into that - despite the fact that we know that this representation of a human is in fact under the complete control of a photographer, right down to the slightest things such as facial expression etc.

We tend to see a portrait of (The subject), rather than a portrait by (The photographer) and as such any emotion conveyed by the image, is attributed to the subject, rather than the photographer - or indeed the viewer.

From reading up on things like Empathy and Theory of Mind, along with other psychological stuff i found that the facial expression of a person is often the major indicator as to how we react to them in any given situation, and it seemed a safe assumption to take that this would also be the case within photography and based the project on this assumption and covered up the face with the plainest, most expressionless mask i could find to try and read how people picked up on things.
(Remember however, i am a photographer - not a psychologist, and i could indeed me miles off the mark)

To test this i sent the images to a friends office, where they were hung for a couple of days and left some short questionnaires to try and guage peoples reading of the images.


Anyway, thanks for the feedback folks - this is a project (with the neccesary adjustments) i want to keep going wether or not it makes the grade at college, so any feedback is highly appreciated so that i can tailor it.

right ok, i'm just trying to see the context a bit clearer, so the hiding of the facial expressions take out an indicator for the viewer, and you then a reading how people pick up on things? as in the mood of the portrait? Its sounds like a great idea, I'm just lost on the method, my mind may be fried from my own projects, looking into stuff to much, mine wasnt too far off yours, and i ended up mindf***ing myself by the end of it

melekalikimaka

ok i think i gots it now.

How are you gonna convay the emotion? visual signifiers in the composition? framing? composition in general?

Eirebear

melekalikimaka wrote: »

right ok, i'm just trying to see the context a bit clearer, so the hiding of the facial expressions take out an indicator for the viewer, and you then a reading how people pick up on things? as in the mood of the portrait? Its sounds like a great idea, I'm just lost on the method, my mind may be fried from my own projects, looking into stuff to much, mine wasnt too far off yours, and i ended up mindf***ing myself by the end of it

Yeah that's pretty much bang on the money there.

I know how you feel regarding being mind****ed, and i reckon in terms of the"research/workbook" part of the hand-in it might cause me some pain as i ended up getting lost in a whirlpool of Psychology/Philosphy/Neuroscience - and maybe the photography references arent quite as clear as they should be.

A lot of it was inspired by mt own reactions to a Victor Albrow exhibition that i caught last year - however i didnt have the time or space to spend weeks perfecting a "Blank" look with my models.

The mask is artificial, and as such had to take that into account - but it's definetly been interesting as to how people have reacted to it.

How you getting on with everything?

Eirebear

melekalikimaka wrote: »

ok i think i gots it now.

How are you gonna convay the emotion? visual signifiers in the composition? framing? composition in general?

Thats a major question within it - which signifiers do people pick up on most? And which ones do they know they are picking up on.

I.e The sense of lonliness that i hope comes across in the first image (Girl on bed) has a lot to do with the lighting imo, but most people wont see that immediately - instead picking up on the ciggy smoke, the clutter etc.

Mayo Miss

Eirebear wrote: »

Thats a major question within it - which signifiers do people pick up on most? And which ones do they know they are picking up on.

I.e The sense of lonliness that i hope comes across in the first image (Girl on bed) has a lot to do with the lighting imo, but most people wont see that immediately - instead picking up on the ciggy smoke, the clutter etc.

I didn't see any loneliness when I looked at it. I just saw a girl with her hair wet, trying to figure out which dress she was wearing for a night out. The clutter is common especially if it's a date hence the need for a smoke to calm the nerves.

Eirebear

Mayo Miss wrote: »

I didn't see any loneliness when I looked at it. I just saw a girl with her hair wet, trying to figure out which dress she was wearing for a night out. The clutter is common especially if it's a date hence the need for a smoke to calm the nerves.

That's part of the whole thing- a lot of what you see in an image depends in your own ideals, mood, state of mind etc etc.

There is only so many "clues" that a photographer can leave, but they arent concrete in any way and can always be interpreted in other ways.

spinandscribble

Eirebear wrote: »

That's part of the whole thing- a lot of what you see in an image depends in your own ideals, mood, state of mind etc etc.

There is only so many "clues" that a photographer can leave, but they arent concrete in any way and can always be interpreted in other ways.

I'm in art college too and one of the things we're reminded of is the open artwork. I can think of many incredibly successful artists who view their work in a completely different way then the majority of their audience do what's important is they're self aware and objective of how the work is received.

Eirebear

spinandscribble wrote: »

I'm in art college too and one of the things we're reminded of is the open artwork. I can think of many incredibly successful artists who view their work in a completely different way then the majority of their audience do what's important is they're self aware and objective of how the work is received.

Definetly, i think from this short thread it's obvious to me where there are problems and successes with the project so far - the mask being an obvious one - so finding a way around that is quite essential.

Although as i mentioned earlier, it seems that people with a knowledge of photography notice the mask more than people who (possibly) don't.
Of the 17 questionnaires i recieved back, 14 of them ticked no when asked if the "mask dehumanised the image". I'm not sure how this relates yet, but thats the point - to figure these things out!
(Although i did get 3 who described the girl on the bed as a shoplifter! So how reliable this is remains to be seen...:D)

Just noticed your location, you at ECA? Damn fine establishment, got a couple of classmates heading there next year.

spinandscribble

Eirebear wrote: »

Definetly, i think from this short thread it's obvious to me where there are problems and successes with the project so far - the mask being an obvious one - so finding a way around that is quite essential.

Although as i mentioned earlier, it seems that people with a knowledge of photography notice the mask more than people who (possibly) don't.
Of the 17 questionnaires i recieved back, 14 of them ticked no when asked if the "mask dehumanised the image". I'm not sure how this relates yet, but thats the point - to figure these things out!
(Although i did get 3 who described the girl on the bed as a shoplifter! So how reliable this is remains to be seen...:D)

Just noticed your location, you at ECA? Damn fine establishment, got a couple of classmates heading there next year.

I did think shop lifter/obsessive with that pic actually too.... or a stressed out girl getting ready to go out who is obsessing.

Yeah I'm in ECA, its a good college, a few hiccups with the merger this year with Edinburgh Uni but what can you do, the old management kinda screwed up the finances but now thats taken care of. The important thing is the tutors are good, decent studio spaces and connections. plus Edinburgh's just awesome...Your friends going into masters/undergrad?

Eirebear

spinandscribble wrote: »

I did think shop lifter/obsessive with that pic actually too.... or a stressed out girl getting ready to go out who is obsessing.

Yeah I'm in ECA, its a good college, a few hiccups with the merger this year with Edinburgh Uni but what can you do, the old management kinda screwed up the finances but now thats taken care of. The important thing is the tutors are good, decent studio spaces and connections. plus Edinburgh's just awesome...Your friends going into masters/undergrad?

Interesting! I really thought they were taking the proverbial, i'm intrigued now.

Undergrad, i went up for the portfolio day but decided against following through with the application simply down to the cost of commuting to Edinburgh every day. Glad your enjoying it though, it definetly impressed me when i was there.

Decided to take a year out of education this year in order to earn some money and fund a couple of projects done that i don't think will fit in with any University time scale.
I'll take stock next year and see if its worthwhile carrying on for a degree.

spinandscribble

Eirebear wrote: »

Interesting! I really thought they were taking the proverbial, i'm intrigued now.

Undergrad, i went up for the portfolio day but decided against following through with the application simply down to the cost of commuting to Edinburgh every day. Glad your enjoying it though, it definetly impressed me when i was there.

Decided to take a year out of education this year in order to earn some money and fund a couple of projects done that i don't think will fit in with any University time scale.
I'll take stock next year and see if its worthwhile carrying on for a degree.

You were planning to travel back and forth from ireland to edinburgh....? Pity you didn't go through with the portfolio day/interview, if you got in you could have postponed your place for a year I bet. Decent thing about scotland is you can still get the degree free even if you've a undergrad in ireland and if you havn't one, you can still get the grant/fees paid..... I'll stop dragging this off topic now...

*edit* ooooh you're in glasgow :P I feel so silly

Eirebear

spinandscribble wrote: »

You were planning to travel back and forth from ireland to edinburgh....? Pity you didn't go through with the portfolio day/interview, if you got in you could have postponed your place for a year I bet. Decent thing about scotland is you can still get the degree free even if you've a undergrad in ireland and if you havn't one, you can still get the grant/fees paid..... I'll stop dragging this off topic now...

*edit* ooooh you're in glasgow :P I feel so silly

Yeah in Glasgow, but my wife has a proper job - so you know the deal.

Anyway, we had our end of year exhibition tonight - someone payed me money for the girl on the bed/with lights wrapped round her - first time ive sold anything in an echibition situation.

Chuffed!