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Mis-stating BER

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  • 20-05-2011 11:33am
    #1
    Gumbyman2000
    Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭


    Hi,

    Just got contracts and pack from vendors solicitor for house sale agreed. BER was stated consistently throughout as C2 and turns out it is E1. Asked to see BER many times but no joy until now. They wont renegotiate saying this is not significant (don't get me started) so pulled out. I have invested around 1500 quid in this house so far between engineers, surveyor and legal fees.

    Is there any penalty or recourse here against estate agent / vendor or can they literally just say what they want with no consequence? Cowboys.

    Cheers,
    Gumby.


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    #2
    Dymo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,561 ✭✭✭Dymo


    Unfortunately everything is sold to contract, and I don't think misrepresentation would count as this was disclosed before anything was signed. You invested around 1500 quid in this house between engineers, surveyor and legal fees,did they indicate anything is wrong with the house?

    The BER cert isn't the end of the world and improvements could be made to improve the rating, it wouldn't stop me from buying a house if the engineer said everything else was ok.

    You've pulled out now, the house probably wasn't for you and once everything was disclosed before signing I don't think you have a case.


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    #3
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,516 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    a E1 house will cost more to heat. if there not willing to budge i'd say good bye.

    in the current market they'll call you back in about a month with a lower price. then take another 2 thousand off and tell them thats your current offer.


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    #4
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    The BER system is questionable to say the least but E1 should have been easy enough to spot versus a C2. If they aren't moving on the price based on what they said I would walk away and write off the money.

    There is a lot to be said for a new system where the seller has to provide full engineering reports rather than the system we have where the buyer has to pay.

    No way of getting the money back btw.


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    #5
    Dymo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,561 ✭✭✭Dymo


    Something as easy as a sellers certificate stating that the house is sound and includes the BER certificate. The seller can't go to market unless they have this certificate would solve a lot of messing in the marketplace and people waiting months for contracts to go through. In the US they have a system like this and a sale can be sorted in 2 weeks but estate agents fees are between 5-7%.


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    #6
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    The BER system is questionable to say the least but E1 should have been easy enough to spot versus a C2. If they aren't moving on the price based on what they said I would walk away and write off the money.
    Not necessarily: insulation and improved boiler controls aren't very visible.

    OP, under the BER regulations, the agent is obliged to provide you with the certificate:

    http://www.seai.ie/Your_Building/EPBD/Legislation_and_Background/S_I_No_666_OF_2006_EPBD-_EC_EPB_Regulations_2006.pdf
    (2) A person who offers for sale or letting (whether in writing or otherwise)—
    (a) a building of a class referred to in subparagraph (a) or (b) of paragraph (4) construction of which commences on or after such date specified for that class in the said subparagraphs, hereinafter referred to as a ‘new building’, or
    (b) on or after 1 January 2009, a building that is in existence on or before 1
    January 2009, and any agent acting on behalf of such person in connection with such offering, shall produce a printed copy of the BER certificate and advisory report in relation to the building to any person expressing an interest in purchasing or taking a letting of the building and, on demand, to the building control authority in whose functional area the building is situated

    I would get in touch with SEAI if I were you. I would also get in touch with the IAVI, professional body for estate agents and clarify your rights. It could help you get a few thousand knocked off the price if it turns out they committed an offence under the regulations:

    http://www.scsi.ie/

    As I understand it, they are obliged to supply the BER certificate to you at the point of offer.


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    #7
    solovely
    Closed Accounts Posts: 273 ✭✭solovely


    Gumbyman2000 wrote: »
    Hi,

    Just got contracts and pack from vendors solicitor for house sale agreed. BER was stated consistently throughout as C2 and turns out it is E1. Asked to see BER many times but no joy until now. They wont renegotiate saying this is not significant (don't get me started) so pulled out. I have invested around 1500 quid in this house so far between engineers, surveyor and legal fees.

    Is there any penalty or recourse here against estate agent / vendor or can they literally just say what they want with no consequence? Cowboys.

    Cheers,
    Gumby.

    Something similar happened to me http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=153864

    I bought my house two years ago, with a BER cert at c1, 2 years later, get a new BER carried out for upgrading the heating, and its down to a D1 because the guy (same guy carried out both BERs) made a mistake on the original one. I have been on to the SEAI but they are useless, no reply, being given the complete runaround.

    I think you should definitely ask your solicitor's advice (I haven't done this yet, but it's probably too late for me), but as people have said, as you haven't signed the contracts yet, you may not have much comeback....really really annoying!

    Do get onto the SEAI though....the most of us that point out the flaws and misrepresentations in the system the better I think!


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    #8
    Gumbyman2000
    Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭Gumbyman2000


    Thanks for the replies guys. Called SEAI and they told me to call BER who told me to call the Buildings Control Officer of the council so will get on that case. I have also called IAVI and will write a letter to their director. Estate agents have a lot to answer for.

    It works out at an extra 55kmw per metre squared per year which in this instance is around 1k pa at least (using Bord Gais tarrifs). To bring it up to C2 (probably impossible) would involve dry lining, triple glazing, attic insulation etc. I know not entirely accurate but is the difference between a cozy house and a cold house wher eyou can see your breath once the heating goes off....... Seriously annoyed. Just not meant to be.


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    #9
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Well done Gumbyman2000. Too many people let others away with shoddy workmanship and unprofessionalism. I fear we're losing what culture of compliance we had built up in the days of the Celtic Tiger with people cutting corners.

    SEAI are correct - it's the Buildings Control Officers that enforce BER provision. SEAI oversee the registration and work of the BER assessors.

    You're right to recognise the impact over time of higher energy costs to you. And that isn't even taking into consideration higher energy costs. A few years ago, €120/barrel of oil was considered a "high oil price scenario". Now it's considered normal.

    When you're considering upgrades, don't forget that the SEAI home grants will be phased out by 2013 and replaced by a Pay As You Save scheme.


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    #10
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    Gumbyman2000 wrote: »
    Thanks for the replies guys. Called SEAI and they told me to call BER who told me to call the Buildings Control Officer of the council so will get on that case. I have also called IAVI and will write a letter to their director. Estate agents have a lot to answer for.

    It works out at an extra 55kmw per metre squared per year which in this instance is around 1k pa at least (using Bord Gais tarrifs). To bring it up to C2 (probably impossible) would involve dry lining, triple glazing, attic insulation etc. I know not entirely accurate but is the difference between a cozy house and a cold house wher eyou can see your breath once the heating goes off....... Seriously annoyed. Just not meant to be.
    This was kind of why I was saying it would be kind of noticeable if it was C2 or E1.
    I don't get what the SEAI, BER or building control really have to do with this. It effectively was false advertising but it depends on how they actually stated the BER rating. Did they print it on the website or brochures? Did they just say verbally? Was it sated as we reckon it is a C1 or state it absolutely?

    BER is not a very accurate system for calculation but in the absence of anything else it is all you can go on.

    Solovely
    The only person at fault on that case would seem to be the person who rated the house. In theory the seller is responsible for the sale and it just happens you know why you were given false information. One thing for sure is you were given false information through no fault of your own. The seller gave you incorrect information and you should be contacting some legal advice on this.


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    #11
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    This was kind of why I was saying it would be kind of noticeable if it was C2 or E1.
    I don't get what the SEAI, BER or building control really have to do with this. It effectively was false advertising but it depends on how they actually stated the BER rating. Did they print it on the website or brochures? Did they just say verbally? Was it sated as we reckon it is a C1 or state it absolutely?

    BER is not a very accurate system for calculation but in the absence of anything else it is all you can go on.

    Building Control has responsibility for the enforcement of BER provision, including failure to provide a BER when requested by a potential buyer or renter.


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    #12
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    Macha wrote: »
    Building Control has responsibility for the enforcement of BER provision, including failure to provide a BER when requested by a potential buyer or renter.
    They did provide it


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    #13
    djmcr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭djmcr


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    They did provide it
    They only stated it until it was time to sign contracts and then they provided cert. Looks like vendor wasn't going to get BER done until he had a definite sale.


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    #14
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    djmcr wrote: »
    They only stated it until it was time to sign contracts and then they provided cert. Looks like vendor wasn't going to get BER done until he had a definite sale.
    The point is they provided it which means they met the requirement. If the legislation says it has to be provided when looking for offers that would be different but I don't think it does. Buyer beware.


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    #15
    djmcr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭djmcr


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    The point is they provided it which means they met the requirement. If the legislation says it has to be provided when looking for offers that would be different but I don't think it does. Buyer beware.

    A seller or landlord must provide a BER to prospective buyers or tenants when a home is offered for sale or rent.

    Source http://www.seai.ie/Your_Building/BER/BER_FAQ/FAQ_BER/Homeowners/Advice_and_Information_for_Householders.html


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    #16
    Pkiernan
    Registered Users Posts: 4,310 ✭✭✭Pkiernan


    Gumbyman2000 wrote: »
    Hi,

    Just got contracts and pack from vendors solicitor for house sale agreed. BER was stated consistently throughout as C2 and turns out it is E1. Asked to see BER many times but no joy until now. They wont renegotiate saying this is not significant (don't get me started) so pulled out. I have invested around 1500 quid in this house so far between engineers, surveyor and legal fees.

    Is there any penalty or recourse here against estate agent / vendor or can they literally just say what they want with no consequence? Cowboys.

    Cheers,
    Gumby.

    OP,

    what is the date on the BER Certificate?
    Does it pre-date any of your negotiations or discussions about purchasing the house.
    I.E. was the house offered for sale prior to the date of issue of the BER Cert?

    Bring the Estate Agent to smalls claims court if the above holds true.

    Report the Estate Agent to the SEAI, and report them to your local TD if they are of no help. Hold them accountable.

    If we do not stand up for ourselves, who will?


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