Would home rule have been enforced on the whole island

jonniebgood1

As most are aware home rule was proposed for quite a while for Ireland and eventually the British method of passing bills in both houses was altered to facilitate the passing of the home rule bill. This created a situation that Ulster was against and brought with it many threats from more militant folk up north. I was looking into this and whether Home rule would have been enforced. I've heard reference to the Curragh incident before but not really looked into it so maybe someone can point towards/ link to more detail on it. It seems an interesting subject with the possibility of the crown army occupying parts of Belfast and enforcing Home rule from Dublin being intriguing.

A starting point summary is here

Curragh incident. Often known as the ‘Curragh mutiny’, though no direct orders of any kind were disobeyed, this occurred in March 1914 when, led by Brig. Gen. Hubert Gough, 60 British cavalry officers at the Curragh camp near Kildare resigned their commissions rather than obey orders which they believed were aimed at coercing Ulster unionists into accepting home rule. When the government planned to deploy troops throughout Ulster against the possibility of armed unionist action, the commander‐in‐chief in Ireland, General Sir Arthur Paget, had injudiciously conceded that officers domiciled in Ulster would be permitted to ‘disappear’ during this operation, but that no concession would be allowed otherwise, even for men like Gough with Irish family connections. The War Office refused to accept the resignations and told the officers that the government did not intend to take offensive action against Ulster. But this assurance was given without cabinet authority, by the secretary for war and the chief of the imperial general staff, both of whom were subsequently obliged to resign. Although the prime minister afterwards repudiated the assurance, in effect the affair meant that the army could not be used to quell Ulster opposition to home rule.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Curragh_incident.aspx
All views welcome. Would the army have been persuaded to obey orders- I'm sure if the Irish forces refused they could have brought in troops from Britain?

owenc

No way absolutely not and if it did ever happen to happen there would be a riot up here and as well as that i would think that there would be people who would not listen to anything the irish government told them to do.. and so it would be pointless.

ejmaztec

owenc wrote: »

No way absolutely not and if it did ever happen to happen there would be a riot up here and as well as that i would think that there would be people who would not listen to anything the irish government told them to do.. and so it would be pointless.

Presumably, the Home Rule government would have included representatives from all political persuasions?

PatsytheNazi

owenc wrote: »

No way absolutely not and if it did ever happen to happen there would be a riot up here and as well as that i would think that there would be people who would not listen to anything the irish government told them to do.. and so it would be pointless.

History actually tells us the exact opposite. Their were no shortage of unionists in Donegal, Monaghan, Cavan etc as well as even Dublin where Carson was from and elected several unionists in the 1918 election gobbing off how there would be a blood bath etc if Home Rule/Irish Independence came about. But when the Brits said - We are going, if you want to fight to the last man etc, well you can do it without us. What happened the big, bad threatened violence on a massive scale ? Nothing of course, barely a whimper Indeed it says a lot about unionist 'loyalty' that they abounded their brethren in the border counties and the rest of the country without a thought.

Indeed here's a fine example of unionist mouthing in Donegal pre partition -" On October 2. 1913, Sir Edward Carson held a great rally at Raphoe. 1500 Donegal volunteers paraded under the command of the fifth Earl of Leitrim. The "Derry Standard" published the headlines" Sir Edward Carson at Raphoe – imposing view of Ulster Volunteers – Donegal's "NO SURRENDER."

http://ams2-aai-web-1.anu.net/reading-room/history-heritage/heritage-towns/the-heritage-towns-of-don/raphoe/the-laggan-and-the-ulster/

Judgement Day

In fairness, while there might have been 'plenty' of loyalists in Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan they would have been an isolated minority in a sea of nationalists - pragmatism won out.

PatsytheNazi

Judgement Day wrote: »

In fairness, while there might have been 'plenty' of loyalists in Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan they would have been an isolated minority in a sea of nationalists - pragmatism won out.

Well the unionists were also pragmatic in Fermanagh, West Tyrone, South Armagh, South Down etc when the ratio wasn't so great. The vast majority of attacks that happened were in north Armagh, north Down and Antrim in places like Portadown, Larne, Ballymena and Belfast where nationalists back then would have been easily outnumbered.

One interesting point is, in general the RIC did try to stop the unionist mobs - until been ordered to remain in barracks by superiors appointed by the British army. This would probably have been due to the fact that the RIC been an all Ireland organization and would have been recruited from every part of the country and hence would have tried to carry out their role as a police force and not some unionist millita.

owenc

Well I don't think it's a sensible idea to compare donegal to the north coast as there are hardly any unionists in donegal and they would be of a different brand of culture to us ie they weren't ready to fight over it.. Plus they would fail over the amount of nationalists In donegal... Try comparing that to north antrim or around here were there is a very High unionist population alot of people would probably riot if there was a united Ireland I can see it now there's no Way.. I can't see us being in a ui either far to many Protestants around here Nd you can say whatever you like about Catholics rising but here there's no rise intact the catholic church is shrinking here versus the presbyterians and a substantial rise of C of I I can't see it this will never be a catholic area so we will never be involved in a ui here so I have no need to worry

PatsytheNazi

owenc wrote: »

Well I don't think it's a sensible idea to compare donegal to the north coast as there are hardly any unionists in donegal and they would be of a different brand of culture to us ie they weren't ready to fight over it.. Plus they would fail over the amount of nationalists In donegal... Try comparing that to north antrim or around here were there is a very High unionist population alot of people would probably riot if there was a united Ireland I can see it now there's no Way.. I can't see us being in a ui either far to many Protestants around here Nd you can say whatever you like about Catholics rising but here there's no rise intact the catholic church is shrinking here versus the presbyterians and a substantial rise of C of I I can't see it this will never be a catholic area so we will never be involved in a ui here so I have no need to worry

So it would have been Antrim, north Armagh, north Down versus the rest of Ireland :eek:

Now won't it have been a bit of a different prospect instead of attacking vastly outnumbered almost defenseless nationalists in the north east - taking on the rest of Ireland

owenc

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

So it would have been Antrim, north Armagh, north Down versus the rest of Ireland :eek:

Now won't it have been a bit of a different prospect instead of attacking vastly outnumbered almost defenseless nationalists in the north east - taking on the rest of Ireland

You forgot east londonderry.. Oh and we can just stay in the uk or northern Ireland cam just become independent or better more stay the same as it is because most people aren't bothered and your causing trouble for nothing!? And yes it would be as already stated donegal snit comparable way us.. Oh and you think were defensive we are not as I'm sure people have Been preparing!?

PatsytheNazi

owenc wrote: »

You forgot east londonderry.. Oh and we can just stay in the uk or northern Ireland cam just become independent or better more stay the same as it is because most people aren't bothered and your causing trouble for nothing!? And yes it would be as already stated donegal snit comparable way us.. Oh and you think were defensive we are not as I'm sure people have Been preparing!?

As per post #4, 1,500 Donegal unionists were shouting NO SURRENDER - plenty of surrender out of them and the rest of them in Dublin, Monaghan etc when daddy Britain said we're going, fight them to the last man now if you want

owenc

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

As per post #4, 1,500 Donegal unionists were shouting NO SURRENDER - plenty of surrender out of them and the rest of them in Dublin, Monaghan etc when daddy Britain said we're going, fight them to the last man now if you want

Well you can say whatever you Like but we will not be joining yous for a long time if ever so you can dream right on.. Ams it's up to us again not the mainland

purplepanda

We now have the situation of the usual threats & bluster that has been used over the last century & more towards the British Government by extreme loyalists, always threatening violence & lawbreaking against the state they profess to care about. Even recently threatening a return to the bad old days of the troubles if the regions massive subsidies of 12 billion sterling a year are seriously cutback. :rolleyes:

Only this time it appears that the bluster brigade have new allies, their former mortal enemies & now partners in devilment, SF & PIRA all suckling along on the teat & trying to get Osbourne, Clegg & Cameron & Co to make an exception whilst everyone else suffers :mad:

Which loyalist Paramilitary leader once said their last battle would be with the British Army?

A friend of mine from County Down always says none of the scumbags from either side should ever have been let out in the first place under the GFA.


My English Stepmother often mentioned that Ian Paisley (a supposed man of God) should have been locked up for years for inciting violence & hatecrimes. :eek:

Time to crack the whip I reckon;)

Judgement Day

purplepanda - I'm confused, why is it time to crack the whip now when we have relative peace? Who does it need cracking with apart from the dissident republicans and to what purpose?

jonniebgood1

owenc wrote: »

No way absolutely not and if it did ever happen to happen there would be a riot up here and as well as that i would think that there would be people who would not listen to anything the irish government told them to do.. and so it would be pointless.

But if the army sent divisions over from England it could have been enforced. Or would it have been the opposite of the war of independence- i.e. trouble in the north east with the army being attacked by loyalists as they tried to keep order. The mutiny referred in OP indicates that it was a very real possibility. If WWI had'nt happened Britain could easily have enforced this order given their army strength in 1914. It would be interesting to see more about the reason for Pagets reaction- he obviously felt it was a real possibility.

owenc

Judgement Day wrote: »

purplepanda - I'm confused, why is it time to crack the whip now when we have relative peace? Who does it need cracking with apart from the dissident republicans and to what purpose?

Aye that's what I just said above everyones happy the way it is now and most Catholics don't even care anymore who cares if they vote for sf maybe it's Judy because they like their policies just like over in Scotland... Most of them think we're better off in the uk anyway and they are right ...

PatsytheNazi

purplepanda wrote: »

We now have the situation of the usual threats & bluster that has been used over the last century & more towards the British Government by extreme loyalists, always threatening violence & lawbreaking against the state they profess to care about. Even recently threatening a return to the bad old days of the troubles if the regions massive subsidies of 12 billion sterling a year are seriously cutback. :rolleyes:

Only this time it appears that the bluster brigade have new allies, their former mortal enemies & now partners in devilment, SF & PIRA all suckling along on the teat & trying to get Osbourne, Clegg & Cameron & Co to make an exception whilst everyone else suffers :mad:

:eek: Extraordinary. Since you brought it up, never heard on the news of " recently threatening a return to the bad old days of the troubles if the regions massive subsidies of 12 billion sterling a year are seriously cutback. " nor seen a thread about it on boards.ie or politics.ie :eek:

Who exactly said that, Martin McGuinness, Peter Robinson ? Link please

A friend of mine from County Down always says none of the scumbags from either side should ever have been let out in the first place under the GFA.

Well again since you brought it up - would you agree that too many scumbags in the British army, RUC etc who never served a day in prison should have been a higher priority than fellas who actually did serve time in prison - many of them loyalists put up to it by the Brit dirty tricks dept and RUC Special Branch ?

It should be pointed out that back in the ' good old days ' around 1920, the good old Tommy's never made any disguise about their neutrality and openly lead unionist mobs in attacks and looting on the nationalists in the north east. I'd recommend a book called The Burnings by Pearse Lawlor on the subject http://www.amazon.co.uk/Burnings-1920-Pearse-Lawlor/dp/1856356124

owenc

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

But if the army sent divisions over from England it could have been enforced. Or would it have been the opposite of the war of independence- i.e. trouble in the north east with the army being attacked by loyalists as they tried to keep order. The mutiny referred in OP indicates that it was a very real possibility. If WWI had'nt happened Britain could easily have enforced this order given their army strength in 1914. It would be interesting to see more about the reason for Pagets reaction- he obviously felt it was a real possibility.

No it couldn't have no one Wants to join you's anymore the uk has put too much money into us for us to join yous now plus everything is so different here it would cost a fortune to change everything over aswell as that yous canny afford us!? And I think the folk who want a ui would soon realize how much better the uk is and come crying to get back in again they are only
talking through their mouths... And even if we were to join yous northern
irelands population would shrink because of riots I'm not fee staying here of we do join you'd cuz there would be riots everywhere and my parents says they are not fer going through that **** again ... The immigrants would go back home swell... Also we did a survey in our school and most people planned to move away because it wouldn't be worth it...

westies4ever

owen please stop speaking for everyone in the north of ireland!!!!!!!!

your points should be 'I think', 'I believe' etc etc. as oppsed to 'everybody' and 'nobody'.

owenc

Flip me patsy it's as if the Catholics never did anything and it's all us all the time

owenc

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

:eek: Extraordinary. Since you brought it up, never heard on the news of " recently threatening a return to the bad old days of the troubles if the regions massive subsidies of 12 billion sterling a year are seriously cutback. " nor seen a thread about it on boards.ie or politics.ie :eek:

Who exactly said that, Martin McGuinness, Peter Robinson ? Link please

Well again since you brought it up - would you agree that too many scumbags in the British army, RUC etc who never served a day in prison should have been a higher priority than fellas who actually did serve time in prison - many of them loyalists put up to it by the Brit dirty tricks dept and RUC Special Branch ?

It should be pointed out that back in the ' good old days ' around 1920, the good old Tommy's
never made any disguise about their neutrality and openly lead unionist mobs in attacks and
looting on the nationalists in the north east.
I'd recommend a book called The Burnings by Pearse Lawlor on the subject
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Burnings-1920-Pearse
Lawlor/dp/1856356124

Well sure didn't they deserve it they were kicking up stirr And also you can say whatever you like about the ruc but they were a damn good police force and if it werent for them northern Ireland wouldve been in a far worse place than it was!? Oh and watch what you say or you will be reported

PatsytheNazi

owenc wrote: »

Well sure didn't they deserve it they were kicking up stirr And also you can say whatever you like about the ruc but they were a damn good police force and if it werent for them northern Ireland wouldve been in a far worse place than it was!? Oh and watch what you say or you will be reported

Oh, your just soooo funny.....ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

owenc

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Oh, your just soooo funny.....ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Whatever you don't gave a clue what your talking about

jonniebgood1

owenc wrote: »

No it couldn't have no one Wants to join you's anymore the uk has put too much money into us for us to join yous now plus everything is so different here it would cost a fortune to change everything over aswell as that yous canny afford us!? ...

Im not trying to be a smart ass but I doubt theres to many who would want NI. Most people I know see northern people of both faiths as a different breed of people who have more in common with each other in their ways, than with ordinary people here. I would be nationalistic and look at how things developed in the north with regret but at this stage things are as they are- the next problem in the north will be when the nationalist population exceeds loyaist.

Thats not the point though that this thread was about but I suppose it may find its way back to the OP at some stage. I don't agree that the British would'nt have enforced home rule. After all they did give in to Irish demands after the war of independence despite unionist pockets in Dublin and Cork. They could have met unionist pressure with martial law and who knows where we would have been. If this was not a possibility then what was the Curragh mutiny about then?

owenc

Well I canny see is being overtaken by Catholics anytime soon sure the catholic church is shrinking massively here the only places it is rising in Is republican areas but I'm sure it'll start falling their too when people realise that they want a modern church.. sure I've been told that there is only one catholic pastor to cover the whole of Coleraine I think they used tay have six priests or something the congregation is really small too they haddy get rid of a pile of wee country catholic churches too recently I can see things getting serious here I'd the decrease does not stop The dup seen a massive rise here by 4percent recently aswell...

R.Dub.Fusilier

owenc by the tone of your comments i think you are a bit of a biggot. by the way i'm not anti British/Unionist/Protestant

owenc wrote: »

... I'm not fee staying here of we do join you'd cuz there would be riots everywhere and my parents says they are not fer going through that **** again ... The immigrants would go back home swell... Also we did a survey in our school and most people planned to move away because it wouldn't be worth it...

Slan Abhaile.

dont let the door hit you on the way out

owenc

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

owenc by the tone of your comments i think you are a bit of a biggot. by the way i'm not anti British/Unionist/Protestant



Slan Abhaile.

dont let the door hit you on the way out

Honestly no I'm not because my mother Is a Catholic lol... And I'm just saying it the way it Is most unionists are worse than me... You obviously haven't met many unionists.. Watch that and you'll see what a bigot is: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00zq2cx (and no I'm not supporting them they are an embaresment I can't believe they were aloud to say the things they did on national television .. They have some bones on them too even day it on the first place)

R.Dub.Fusilier

owenc wrote: »

Honestly no I'm not because my mother Is a Catholic lol...

so what.
Lenny Murphy the leader of loyalist heroes the "Shankill Butchers" had a Catholic ,or is it Papist, granny. another of Ulsters heroes Michael Stone had a Catholic granny.

owenc

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

so what.
Lenny Murphy the leader of loyalist heroes the "Shankill Butchers" had a Catholic ,or is it Papist, granny. another of Ulsters heroes Michael Stone had a Catholic granny.

Yea big woop tay him but I think it's bit different fer your parents now come on!? I think it's good for me because I can see the arguments from both sides but it has been annoying listening to my grandmother and her biased opinions about Protestants ... Aw well anyway id suggest getting back on topic I hope you now know that I am by far bitter compared to other unionists

purplepanda

Judgement Day wrote: »

purplepanda - I'm confused, why is it time to crack the whip now when we have relative peace? Who does it need cracking with apart from the dissident republicans and to what purpose?

Maybe the term of phrase is wrong but there has been recent news reports of NI politicians & also political commentary suggesting that the province should be in some way sheltered or exempted from UK central goverment cuts & the threat of a return to violence has been mentioned in regards to this issue.

Hence me making the point in my post.

Anyway back to the subject perhaps Gladstone was right when he suggested Dominion status during the Home Rule period, which would have saved a long of bloodshed over the years.

CDfm

This is a very interesting question as people assume we operated and the UK operated as a democracy -which was not the case.

My grandfathers beef was with the Ascendency , a small elite that controlled the country and when he was growing up the poverty was such that 10% plus of his neighbours lived in mud/sod huts.

His father had a pub.

Of those with the vote , while it is hard to find the figures, at a maximum I estimated 1/3 of men had the vote.

Things were not like that in Northern Ireland and you had the "Ulster Custom " which may have made things more civilised.

The ascendency controlled the army whereas the police were more impartial.

Post 1918 in Ireland and Britain men over 21 and women over 30 all had the vote.

So would things have played out differently - they ought to because the UK parliment would have been more representative and probably had more sympathetic ears in parliment.

In Britain by 1930 when the franchise was extended to all women over 21 in a little over 12 years a democracy had emerged and the ascendency were adjusting and I doubt they would have viewed Ireland which such importance.

The British changed and by 1939 they were prepared to hand over the North if Ireland entered the War.

jonniebgood1

CDfm wrote: »

This is a very interesting question as people assume we operated and the UK operated as a democracy -which was not the case.
.

Exacty- take WWI as the prime example of needless serving of the upper classes wishes. It was'nt just here and England though- France & Germany were the same at the time. It is a point that suggests they would have enforced home rule though.

CDfm wrote: »

The British changed and by 1939 they were prepared to hand over the North if Ireland entered the War.

Maybe they wanted rid of it- Would have saved them alot of money!!! Whether this would actually have happened is very debatable. You are correct to mention it as it is from the same gene pool of not really caring about the peoples wishes (democracy as you put it) as the orders/ rumours behind the 'curragh incident'.