Would home rule have been enforced on the whole island

R.Dub.Fusilier

owenc wrote: »

Yea big woop tay him but I think it's bit different fer your parents now come on!? I think it's good for me because I can see the arguments from both sides but it has been annoying listening to my grandmother and her biased opinions about Protestants ... Aw well anyway id suggest getting back on topic I hope you now know that I am by far bitter compared to other unionists

so its your Catholic grandmother that's the bigot and not you ?? those dirty "taigs" eh.
you couldn't see both sides of any story if it was the size of Belfast city hall.
and "well anyway id suggest getting back on topic" after you did a bit of sh1t stirring and ruin a good question from the OP.

CDfm

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Exacty- take WWI as the prime example of needless serving of the upper classes wishes. It was'nt just here and England though- France & Germany were the same at the time. It is a point that suggests they would have enforced home rule though.

Maybe, you always have had elites. John Bruton the former Taoiseach has said Ireland is ruled by civil servants who us the Dail & Seanad to rubber stamp their rule.

Democracy was not a widely used system of government back then.

Maybe they wanted rid of it- Would have saved them alot of money!!! Whether this would actually have happened is very debatable. You are correct to mention it as it is from the same gene pool of not really caring about the peoples wishes (democracy as you put it) as the orders/ rumours behind the 'curragh incident'.

I dont think the money was an issue to those in power as MP's hadnt been been a paid job very long.

You need agreement in society or some type of cohesive force to agree a form of government. Like it or not the ascendency in Southern Ireland had not fostered that bond but they had that bond in the north.

So the democracy concept had yet to catch on. The organs of state had reported to the ascendency and now reported to parliment.

In one way the Unionists were saying dont mess with our winning formula.

By 1939 Britains political system had changed.

owenc

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

so its your Catholic grandmother that's the bigot and not you ?? those dirty "taigs" eh.
you couldn't see both sides of any story if it was the size of Belfast city hall.
and "well anyway id suggest getting back on topic" after you did a bit of sh1t stirring and ruin a good question from the OP.

Sorry what? Stop judging my family we have better things to do than talk about Catholics and if I said anything about Catholics I would get hit... My folks are of the conservative variety you won't find us using the word taig infact I didn't find out about that until I came to school sorry to dissapoint you but we are not of the bitter orange order variety infact my dad dosnt even like them so you can retract your statement... And what has this got to do with that? I don't think Catholics down south have a clue about us really and this proves my point everytime I come on here yous are constantly bitching about us and saying how we hate Catholics and all that and that we are all In the orange order when about an ninth of us are In it seriously you have no clue so don't even bother saying anything because yous have no clue what your talking about your just listening to your grandparents or something.

R.Dub.Fusilier

owenc wrote: »

Sorry what? Stop judging my family we have better things to do than talk about Catholics and if I said anything about Catholics I would get hit... My folks are of the conservative variety you won't find us using the word taig infact I didn't find out about that until I came to school sorry to dissapoint you but we are not of the bitter orange order variety infact my dad dosnt even like them so you can retract your statement... And what has this got to do with that? I don't think Catholics down south have a clue about us really and this proves my point everytime I come on here yous are constantly bitching about us and saying how we hate Catholics and all that and that we are all In the orange order when about an ninth of us are In it seriously you have no clue so don't even bother saying anything because yous have no clue what your talking about your just listening to your grandparents or something.

sorry sweetheart i'm not judging your family, i'm giving an opinion on what you are saying and nothing else.
i think its you that are making sweeping statements about Catholics and not me making comments about other faiths. So your parents had to discipline you for saying bigoted comments about Catholics? i think your mask is starting to slip there.
and sorry i dont think i need to retract any statement.

CDfm

owenc wrote: »

I don't think Catholics down south have a clue about us really and this proves my point everytime I come on here yous are constantly bitching about us and saying how we hate Catholics and all that and that we are all

Owen. Now I used to go to the north for work and an ex-collegue of mine from my time living in London is in the Orange Order and we are friends.


I have no real problem with Unionists believing what they do politically and it does not bother me.

What we would see of the Orange tradition is what is reported in the media and usually such pieces have interviews with members or political representatives of both communities.

However, the Orange Order do have a tradition of not being open to Catholic membership and here is a quote from ABC Australia

The Orange Orders were founded in 1795 and are avowedly sectarian. A member cannot marry a Catholic and faces expulsion for attending a Catholic mass.

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/perspective/stories/2006/1776931.htm

Visiting Derry last year I was struck at how small it was. Belfast was sadder cos you have the "peace walls" that dare not be taken down. Other than City Hall and the Crown Pub it is hard to find any historical buildings to visit.

What we see in the media is from community and political representatives and how they describe themselves and their traditions.

NI politics and society is a very intense place and in the south most of us are so removed from it that its a thing we see on telly.

(I cant see the point of Rangers & Celtics either other than getting community support for a second rate football league.)

Most people would like to see the communities in the North get along. What happens in London & Brussels is far more significant to us politically and economicaly. That really has been the outcome.

I wish you well & I hope we can get back to the topic at hand.

owenc

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

sorry sweetheart i'm not judging your family, i'm giving an opinion on what you are saying and nothing else.
i think its you that are making sweeping statements about Catholics and not me making comments about other faiths. So your parents had to discipline you for saying bigoted comments about Catholics? i think your mask is starting to slip there.
and sorry i dont think i need to retract any statement.

What mask I'm not catholic fact! You think theres no such thing as non bitter protestants lol you do know that conservative families are respectful dress well etc? And you also have to remember my mothers family are catholic so I will be more accomping to Catholics than other folk.. And what sweeping statements did I make I was just saying it as it is alot of folk up here are worrying about their church... As there is a decline I'n numbers and a shortage of
priests.. There you go don't know how you can get offended way that and no I did not get Tould off because my folk do not know I use this site.. Seriously I canny believe that you think I'm catholic cuz my parents aren't bitter major generalisations here

owenc

CDfm wrote: »

Owen. Now I used to go to the north for work and an ex-collegue of mine from my time living in London is in the Orange Order and we are friends.


I have no real problem with Unionists believing what they do politically and it does not bother me.

What we would see of the Orange tradition is what is reported in the media and usually such pieces have interviews with members or political representatives of both communities.

However, the Orange Order do have a tradition of not being open to Catholic membership and here is a quote from ABC Australia

Visiting Derry last year I was struck at how small it was. Belfast was sadder cos you have the "peace walls" that dare not be taken down. Other than City Hall and the Crown Pub it is hard to find any historical buildings to visit.

What we see in the media is from community and political representatives and
how they describe themselves and their traditions.

NI politics and society is a very intense place and in the south most of us are so removed from it that its a thing we see on telly.

(I cant see the point of Rangers & Celtics either other than getting community
support for a second rate football league.)

Most people would like to see the communities in the North get along. What happens in London & Brussels is far more significant to us politically and economicaly. That really has been the outcome.

I wish you well & I hope we can get back to the topic at hand.

Hi what did you expect?? 100000 over 1 million are you serious did you really expect Derry to be comparable with Dublin lol!! I just consider derry a large town and nothing more as do the locals it's not really a proper city but whatever. Yes and I think I agree as I think it's unfair getting sin fine and the orange order to vouch for us as that creates an opinion that we are all bitter (obviously something that boy from Dublin picked up on) and that really isn't us that's like a ninth of us or something honestly most are sick of the orange order and think they should at least change their rules and come out of the sand or else get disbanded why are they not In jail yet that's what I'd like to know In Any other country this would not be accepted maybe ni would be a better place if we got rid of all them folk.. Mind you they're not all like that there's a wee hall down below my place and they are nice people they wouldn't say a thing Tay you but now a days they are In the minority I have to say

R.Dub.Fusilier

owenc wrote: »

What mask I'm not catholic fact! You think theres no such thing as non bitter protestants lol you do know that conservative families are respectful dress well etc? And you also have to remember my mothers family are catholic so I will be more accomping to Catholics than other folk.. And what sweeping statements did I make I was just saying it as it is alot of folk up here are worrying about their church... As there is a decline I'n numbers and a shortage of
priests.. There you go don't know how you can get offended way that and no I did not get Tould off because my folk do not know I use this site.. Seriously I canny believe that you think I'm catholic cuz my parents aren't bitter major generalisations here

this will hopefully be my last comment on this matter but i did not say you are Catholic.the mask i am talking about is your wee sectarian mask which you do show and in my opinion you are a bigot . end of story.


Slan Slan

CDfm

owenc wrote: »

Hi what did you expect?? 100000 over 1 million are you serious did you really expect Derry to be comparable with Dublin lol!!

Not exactly, but that the areas like the Bogside in Derry or the Falls Road or Shankill in Belfast are small roads or estates and it is weird that we even know the names.

The whole of Europe would recognise those street names. So its the impression the world has.

The whole situation does come across as local and tribal. Well was it.

Yes and I think I agree as I think it's unfair getting sin fine and the orange order to vouch for us as that creates an opinion that we are all bitter

At least you understand where people acquire the impression.

Were there reasons in your view that Home Rule would not have been enforced.

What type of links were there with the UK social & culturally ?

What was the role of the ascendency and did that change.

ejmaztec

owenc wrote: »

Hi what did you expect?? 100000 over 1 million are you serious did you really expect Derry to be comparable with Dublin lol!! I just consider derry a large town and nothing more as do the locals it's not really a proper city but whatever. Yes and I think I agree as I think it's unfair getting sin fine and the orange order to vouch for us as that creates an opinion that we are all bitter (obviously something that boy from Dublin picked up on) and that really isn't us that's like a ninth of us or something honestly most are sick of the orange order and think they should at least change their rules and come out of the sand or else get disbanded why are they not In jail yet that's what I'd like to know In Any other country this would not be accepted maybe ni would be a better place if we got rid of all them folk.. Mind you they're not all like that there's a wee hall down below my place and they are nice people they wouldn't say a thing Tay you but now a days they are In the minority I have to say

I assume that its city status exists because it has a cathedral, which is how a city is defined in the UK. The size of the population is irrelevant.

owenc

CDfm wrote: »

Not exactly, but that the areas like the Bogside in Derry or the Falls Road or Shankill in Belfast are small roads or estates and it is weird that we even know the names.

The whole of Europe would recognise those street names. So its the impression the world has.

The whole situation does come across as local and tribal. Well was it.


At least you understand where people acquire the impression.

Were there reasons in your view that Home Rule would not have been enforced.

What type of links were there with the UK social & culturally ?

What was the role of the ascendency and did that change.

Yes we are a small place but we have quite a high population for our area and yes there is
territory problems especially In them wee divey estates but outside of That it's fine.. Are these
questions for me?? Well the first question well I believe that if they wanted to they wouldve
forced it but as I've already stated it would be utterly Pointless as no one would listen to
Them and there would be a riot and it would be pointless you needen bother saying it
wouldn't have been because it wouldve... Second question between unionist?? Lol well that is
just culture In my own family In let's say the 19th century we did not have links with the uk
but we were culturally like them with language and religion far more than down south Ie churches and the likes I think on the church my folks went to it says church of Scotland on it
accents were also similar you could even say the accent here is similar to Scotland here anyway we would be comparable to ayrshire but we would be less broad... And the third question well their aim was to be rich and snobby and make everyone pay money to them and their church just because they were English (yep Presbyterians had to pay the church of
Ireland folks Money despite the fact we didn't attend services) They also treated everyone like a bag of crap and of course most importantly they came first..:rolleyes: they also thought it would be funny to make everyone convert to their church by saying that their church was not legal nor their marriages (yes very hurtful) so folks here had to attend to local church of Ireland because of this (but I think they had Presbyterian services I'n the building ) and the Catholics well they weren't even aloud churches I don't think I think they haddy use some rock the rocks are on the hill behind my house still..

Mike 1972

Didnt the third home rule bill make provision for an opt out for (9 county) Ulster ?

Home rule was good idea whose time never came. Had it been implemented earlier it would probably have placated most nationalists who would at that stage have been content with autonomy within the UK. Unionists might have come to accept it as Irish society became more secularised. As it was the NI state before the days of direct rule was effectively a form of Home rule for (part of) Ulster.

ejmaztec wrote: »

I assume that its city status exists because it has a cathedral, which is how a city is defined in the UK..

Complete urban myth

jonniebgood1

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Didnt the third home rule bill make provision for an opt out for (9 county) Ulster ?

Home rule was good idea whose time never came. Had it been implemented earlier it would probably have placated most nationalists who would at that stage have been content with autonomy within the UK. Unionists might have come to accept it as Irish society became more secularised. As it was the NI state before the days of direct rule was effectively a form of Home rule for (part of) Ulster.

I think it was was not decided how many counties could opt out of the home rule. It was called the amending bill and it was to last for 6 years. There was also another party who tried to compromise between the Unionists and the Irish party views- the all for Ireland league.

There was an enduring split in Cork between the William O’Brien-led ‘All for Ireland League’ which had been established in 1909 and the Irish Parliamentary Party, led by John Redmond. The source of the split was differing attitudes to the 1903 Land Act and equally to the process of cooperation between unionists and nationalists, promoted by O’Brien as ‘conference, conciliation and consent’.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/exhibition/cork/government_politics_institutions.html
If the army had enforced home rule as per OP I would suggest that as things carried on with relatively little change that the Unionists would have began to partake in governing rather than opposing the will of both their King and of the majority of people.

CDfm

If you read OwenC's post he makes valid points.

There was no forcing northern unionists to go with the south because they were a diverse bunch and they alligned themselves with those most like themselves.

Think Harland & Wolff Belfast and the local industries that made the North sucessful & think the Ulster custom etc .

NI was integrated and killing home rule with kindness actually worked. Disestablishment of the Church and abolition of tithes etc.

My grandfathers nationalism was probably similar and he was anti-ascendency because his local guys were absolute sh1tes.

So the experience in the North especially for Presbyterians was not the same as a southern catholic.

A valid point of view and pragmatic because all politics is local - jobs, schools, roads etc.

jonniebgood1

CDfm wrote: »

NI was integrated and killing home rule with kindness actually worked. Disestablishment of the Church and abolition of tithes etc.
.

In what way do you mean killing home rule with kindness worked CD?
Home rule was due to be adopted at the outbreak of WWI. Do you mean socially?

CDfm

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

In what way do you mean killing home rule with kindness worked CD?
Home rule was due to be adopted at the outbreak of WWI. Do you mean socially?

Well in the south killing Home Rule with kindness had made inroads and the royal visit of 1911 was popular and the initial reaction to the rising was negative.

UK social policies were also being put in and the British were spending more in Ireland then what they were taking out of the economy.

In NI it had a smaller job to do.

Judgement Day

I have always failed to understand how the British government ever tolerated the formation of the Ulster Volunteers (1912) or the Irish Volunteers (1913) and if they had put their foot down then the partition of Ireland would never have happened. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that with such a laissez faire attitude to Ireland that the UK's involvement here is now reduced to the embassy in Ballsbridge plus the residency, and six troublesome counties in the north. Whether or not you agree with the British presence in Ireland, it is through their own inadequate response to the republicans/loyalists nutters taking over the asylum that has led to the present insoluble position.

CDfm

That is something.

How did they get away with it .Some cojones.

Like in the UK only the only legal private army is the Athol Highlanders

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atholl_Highlanders

The upshot was the Curragh Mutiny where the British government effectively lost control of its forces.

Its mad to think that a group like the Ulster Volunteers could import 24,000 rifles in the Larne gun running and nothing was done. The Irish Volunteers 1,000 brought in by Childers was a fraction.

It makes you wonder what the Government thought might happen & when .

Judgement Day

I think the views of another forgotten 'Irishman' Sir Henry Wilson who contemptuously referred to the politicians of the day as "the frocks" were about right. Sir Henry Wilson, who was later assassinated by the IRA, was first and foremost a military man who saw everything in black and white terms i.e deal with terrorists/rebels by force and then deal with the consequences instead of pussyfooting about the place. While he would still be reviled by nationalists he had it about right when it came to dealing with law and order. However, his pro-British loyalty saw his law and order stance seriously undermined by his tacit support for the Curragh Mutiny.

Incidentally, the impending break-up of the UK is another example of the British government's laissez faire attitude taken to its logical conclusion. Will they ever wake up - I doubt it. The probable outcome - a military coup in Britain. Henry Wilson was 90 years ahead of his time. Sorry for wandering way off topic.

Having taken the thread so far off topic I thought I might as well throw this Pathe newsreel link of Field Marshal Sir Henry Wilson's State Funeral in 1922. http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=18683 Not a bad turnout for a Longford boy!

CDfm

Its significance was massive

The Daily Chronicle reported:
For the first time in modern English history a military cabal seeks to dictate to Government the Bills it should carry or not carry into law. We are confronted with a desperate rally of reactionaries to defeat the democratic movement and repeal the Parliamentary Act. This move by a few aristocratic officers is the last throw in the game.
The Daily Express announced in black type that “the Home Rule Bill is Dead,” and The Daily News queried, “It is a question whether we govern ourselves or are governed by General Cough. Speaking on the Irish Question, at meet*ing held at Huddersfield on March 2 1st, Mr. Lloyd George said:
We are confronted with the greatest issue raised in this country since the days of the Stuarts. Representative government in this land is at stake. In those days our forefathers had to face a claim of the Divine Right of Kings to do what they pleased. Today it is the Divine Right of the aristocracy to do what its pleases .
We are not fighting about Ulster. We are not fighting about Home Rule. We are fighting for all that is essential to civil liberty in this land.

This is a great article on the events

http://www.curragh.info/articles/mutiny.htm

jonniebgood1

CDfm wrote: »

Its significance was massive

This is a great article on the events

http://www.curragh.info/articles/mutiny.htm

Good article- The government were firmly behind the use of the army to do this. I did not realise home rule had the level of support suggested

On Saturday, 14th March, Churchill, a great believer in Home Rule, delivered a speech at Bradford

Hard to know who was correct- Ferguson or Gough???

CDfm

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Good article- The government were firmly behind the use of the army to do this. I did not realise home rule had the level of support suggested

Hard to know who was correct- Ferguson or Gough???

Fergusson was loyal to his government which is what you want from a soldier. Straight up.

Democracy did not exist except in some countries and in 1900 there was no real democracy in the world.

Gough and Paget dithered and spread confusion.

You also have to take into account that the concept of democratic government in the early 20th century was not really established and the ascendency were "the natural order". It was representative of that era.

On a wider scale the German Empire, Austro-Hungarian Empire and Russian Empire were all gone a few years later.Even Spain had a regime change.

The British Empire survived another generation or so but is now the United Kingdom.

So on balance, Fergusson got it right and was with the new order and on the day with military discipline.

The 1916 Rising did not gain popular support in Dublin until afterwards from when civilian non-combatant executions by the Military came to light and that was from the same "officer class".

Take General Maxwell vs General Lowe's behavior at the time of the Rising and its aftermath. Very different outlooks.

CDfm

Thats all very nice but Fratton Fred wasnt around then and so couldnt influence home rule.

There were economic arguments against home rule given the embryo of the welfare state.

Were they used by politicians ?

Were the ascendency questions tackled ?

Dades

A lot of off-topic rubbish and baiting has been deleted.
Some people are lucky to not be getting cards.
Any more accusations or personal comments and there will be.

jonniebgood1

CDfm wrote: »

There were economic arguments against home rule given the embryo of the welfare state.

Were they used by politicians ?

The developing economics meant that it was becoming advantageous for England to start to cut links with Ireland. I think we had this in a recent thread where Ireland by 1912 was no longer a net contributor to the British budget, in simple terms spending was higher than tax receipts (sounds familiar!!!).