Friday night cheese: Help!

godspal

I have never experienced so much cheese as I experienced tonight. (3 Rax, Bunker Rush, Cannon Rush, 6 pool, and 4 Gate)

Now I took everyone's advice and went macro.
11 Pool
15 Gas
20 Roach
19 7* Roach (to allow me to secure my expansion)
34 Lair
36 Hatch

Now this is strong enough build. (I think...)

But I am finding Z v P (cheese) very difficult.

Tonight I have faced 5 Cannon Rushes (beat it once, because I scouted it early with my O/L and I brought out my drones to kill the Probe). Will someone tell me how to beat it as zerg?

And if not that I have faced mass cannons in his base, and then they just sit back while I try to tech up and switch to Muta or Brood, and I get basically wiped out by Void Rays. GRRRR its infuriating. Also how do I beat Cannon Wall ins as zerg?

Orizio

Wait, how is that a macro build?

Anyway, if you go pool first, then you should be able to beat a bunker rush pretty handy. Aim to kill the scv(s), and even if the bunker gets up try and kill any reinforcements that get in, and even if the bunker gets filled get a spine up and destroy it (you should probably put the spine up the moment you spot the bunker). Ideally you should keep an overlord in the likely position he will put up the bunker, and pull drones to kill the scv straight away.

Sabre0001

Get drones away from cannoned base as quick as possible and get another hatch as soon as you have mins. Try to get it before spawning pool is killed off and get lings out. They should be over committed to cannons and have little defending. Try and get lings in and kill off what you can. Micro needed to keep them alive, away from zealots, but still getting economic back on track...

Better players can provide more solid advice.....

godspal

@Orizio:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/7_Roach_Rush_/_Expand_/_Lair
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=171804

I know it seems like a weird build. But hey! Its very powerful, and easy to execute.

Orizio

I don't really know anything about Zerg, but getting a 36 hatch isn't macro. That build looks pretty all-in, in that with those 7 roaches you have to do damage. Moreover that build seems easily countered (bunkers etc). There is much more standard builds out there.

But I don't know much or anything about Zerg. What I will say is that silver etc players don't know how to cheese properly, so again it comes down to mechanics and have a solid build, which are the two things you should concentrate on.

Funky

What kind of cannon rushes are you losing to? Like are they cannoning your main or expo? I honestly am not sure how a zerg can get cannon rushed if you're building your expo at 36 supply.

edit: and yea, that build is as cheesey as the ones you listed were beating you, it's meant to do damage like Orizio said.

godspal

okay i know I am a newb, but I don't understand how saturating my first base, and securing my second expansion with harassment with 7 roaches, is cheesy.

EDIT: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zerg_Strategy
It's also listed as a General Build on Liquipedia.

It was either that or the Spanishwa build. And I can't micro that well.

Funky

godspal wrote: »

okay i know I am a newb, but I don't understand how saturating my first base, and securing my second expansion with harassment with 7 roaches, is cheesy.

EDIT: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zerg_Strategy
It's also listed as a General Build on Liquipedia.

It was either that or the Spanishwa build. And I can't micro that well.

Between a really early pool, early roach warren, 7 larva spent on roaches, and then a really really late hatchery it means your sacrificing a load of economy. 7 roaches that early need to do alot of damage, or at least stop your opponent's worker production/expansion attempt. If they don't do any damage you're way behind from the getgo. Plus, if I recall correct, that build was popular quite a while ago when there were still alot of maps with a very short rush distance, now on most maps your slow roaches will trudge across the map, and if your opponent has any sort of decent unit mix not only will the roaches do no damage but they won't be able to escape either.

In my opinion, for ZvP anyway, this is the build you want to be doing.

Fringe

You shouldn't lose to cannon rushes if you go 7RR. When you see cannons going down, just relax, build a spine crawler and continue with your build. Once your 7 roaches pop out, just walk past the cannons to his base and kill him. He won't have anything if he cannon rushed.

The build that Funky posted is probably one of the best macro builds you can do against P. It's too difficult to get a hatch first. You can secure your expansion as long as you constantly scout your opponent with lings.

IRL_Sinister

godspal wrote: »

I have never experienced so much cheese as I experienced tonight. (3 Rax, Bunker Rush, Cannon Rush, 6 pool, and 4 Gate)

Now I took everyone's advice and went macro.
11 Pool
15 Gas
20 Roach
19 7* Roach (to allow me to secure my expansion)
34 Lair
36 Hatch

Now this is strong enough build. (I think...)

But I am finding Z v P (cheese) very difficult.

Tonight I have faced 5 Cannon Rushes (beat it once, because I scouted it early with my O/L and I brought out my drones to kill the Probe). Will someone tell me how to beat it as zerg?

And if not that I have faced mass cannons in his base, and then they just sit back while I try to tech up and switch to Muta or Brood, and I get basically wiped out by Void Rays. GRRRR its infuriating. Also how do I beat Cannon Wall ins as zerg?

That's an all-in build bro.

Deadlocked

godspal wrote: »

I have never experienced so much cheese as I experienced tonight. (3 Rax, Bunker Rush, Cannon Rush, 6 pool, and 4 Gate)

Now I took everyone's advice and went macro.
11 Pool
15 Gas
20 Roach
19 7* Roach (to allow me to secure my expansion)
34 Lair
36 Hatch

Now this is strong enough build. (I think...)

But I am finding Z v P (cheese) very difficult.

Tonight I have faced 5 Cannon Rushes (beat it once, because I scouted it early with my O/L and I brought out my drones to kill the Probe). Will someone tell me how to beat it as zerg?

And if not that I have faced mass cannons in his base, and then they just sit back while I try to tech up and switch to Muta or Brood, and I get basically wiped out by Void Rays. GRRRR its infuriating. Also how do I beat Cannon Wall ins as zerg?

No one Zerg build will work for all matchups.

Instead of reading builds off teamliquid try to watch games online or download grandmaster/master replays and see what they do.

(More importantly see what they do when they see what they see. This is why I love to watch Idra streaming.)

As for Z v P cheese i understand your frustration. A properly executed cannon rush is very difficult to deal with.

(My personal strats)
Send a drone to scout at 13/14 food. if you see a forge its red alert mode. Find his probe asap with ~3 drones. if he starts throwing up plyons bring more drones if necessary. Reaction timing needs to be very quick.

I generally go hatch first vs P so I cannon rushing me is a good option for P so i need to be very reactive.

If you continually have problems with cannon rushing go pool first and make sure you have a OL placed at your ramp. Much less susceptible to cannons then

Sparticle

Take this with a pinch of salt as I'm still in diamond.

There really is no excuse for losing to cannon rush if you open 11 pool. Your first 4 or 6 lings should clean up any aggressive pylon placement. If he/she is somehow getting a fully functioning cannon cheese in your base then there needs to be a change in your scouting strategies.


That is not a macro build. The early pool + roach warren will CRIPPLE your economy and the only viable strat is an all-in roach push.

Here is a good all-rounder macro build but it requires very good awareness and unit control to avoid losing to cheese. Remember to use your drones to deny bunkers and repel very early aggression.

15-Hatch
15-Pool
Terran: (Gas after pool if he is not going all in 2 rax(In that case buy a spine and defend+Deny bunkers with slowlings until spine is functioing)
Toss : ( Gas slightly before pool finishes)If he's going 4-gate Buy 2/3 spines(depends on map) and throw down a roach warren at 5-6 mins.
Zerg : (If he opens 14 pool and is playing aggressive throw down a spine and block ramp with queens. Defend with slings and slowly transition to roach. If he opens 9 pool let the expo tank damage until you can overwhelm his 1st six lings. When queens spawn hold the ramp and your eco and production should slowly pull ahead.

You will probably get rofl-pwned the first few games but this is the greatest build for improving your mechanics and unit-control.

UnholyGregor

Sparticles a noob dont listen to him.

Heres what you do:
15 hatch 15 pool (15 hatch 14 pool if your paranoid)
EVERY GAME WITHOUT EXCEPTION
Really,the only time i dont do this build is I'm being 6 or 10 pooled.

You should drone scout at 10, if its a terran, check for gas, if theres no gas, keep a drone in front of your expansion to make sure theres no bunker, as you'l prob be 2 raxed. If theres a bunker building, pull 2 drones, and if theres a marine nearby, get 4 drones to kill the marine, if you micro well, you wont loe a single drone. build a spine if he gets a bunker in range of your nat. Spines can outrange the marines in the bunker if you position them just barely in range at the very corner of the building.

If its a toss, check for forge, and if its a cannon cheese pull around 6 drones, 3 per cannon will kill it before it builds. You want to try kill the probe, dont worry about killing the pylon, the cannons cannot finish, and the probe must die asap.

7pool spine rush, your scout will see this, just go 14 or 15 pool and dont get gas. save larva and when your lings finish, attack with everything(including drones. You will crush it)

Otherwise, i normally go speed after my expo is done, keep poking up the ramp to see what your opponent is doing, and if he hasnt expod by 8 mins, your definately being all in-ed. So just throw up 2 or 3 spines and lol your way to victory.

Also, 11pool into roach is the worst macro build I have ever seen. Never build your pool before 14 drones. NEVER

PS: Im only messing Sparticle's ( prometheus' ) advice is sound.

PPS: VS ling bane all ins:
15 hatch 14 pool 17 gas 20 roach warren beats speedling baneling all ins every time. Just defend with lings vs his lings, by the time his speed is done and he has banes, you can have 4/5 roaches, a queen and lings vs ling bane. He won't have a chance.

Edit: Your welcome.........

godspal

Thanks for all the advice.

Especially Unholygregor :P.

I spent all day yesterday trying to perfect a Macro Build. (With Mixed results. 50:50 win/loss)
Sorry I just logged on a few hours ago and been practising Macro techniques again.

Here's my last 5 games, any further advice would be great.

And thanks in advance.

Even a little thank you video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzMhh8zhTiY

EDIT: Oh and the reason it took me so long to thank everyone... Was well there was no point me thanking people and not following their advice.

UnholyGregor

I watched the first 2 games, and theres one fundamental thing you need to get into your play if you want to improve your macro. DRONES!

Game 1: You build 40 lings, (and didn't use them or need them)
Game 2: You build 40 lings (and didnt use them or need them)

40 zerglings is 20 larva. Your opponents werent pressuring you, and you werent pressuring your opponents, so wouldnt it be better to have 20 extra drones?

The key to winning with zerg is to have as many drones as possible whilst being safe. So, in other words, only build attacking units if your opponents gonna attack you. So you need good larva injects to produce a big army fast. But this comes with practice. Otherwise, those lings are just a total waste.

DRONES=winning
Really, its as simple as that. Usually, once my expo finishes, i build 4 zergings, 1 for eack xelnaga tower, and 2 for sitting outside your opponents ramp, so you know when he's gonna attack you. The difference in what i do and what you do is 18 drones. Thats almost a whole base worth of income. when i see my opponent coming, i switch completely to unit production to defend, beat his attack with my better economy, and return to droning and expanding.

The key to success with this eco-heavy playstyle is knowing when to build drones and when to make units to defent. So sac an overlord at 5 mins 30, to see if hes going all in, or teching or expanding. Poke lings up his ramp to see his army size, and keep droning if you feel safe.

The bottom line is, producing 40 zerglings in the first 8 mins of a game will destroy your economy, and your only choice is to all in.
If you want replays let me know.

godspal

I'd love a replay thanks.

UnholyGregor

il upload reps in a bit, im too lazy to go up stiars to my gaming comp at the moment.
But add me to bnet: Epimetheus 402, and you can obs my games, as i do loads of customs, and you can learn alot. But i cant stress enough the importance of efficiency when playing zerg. If you dont need zerglings, don't build them.

Edit: Replays

seraphimvc

UnholyGregor wrote: »

PPS: VS ling bane all ins:
15 hatch 14 pool 17 gas 20 roach warren beats speedling baneling all ins every time. Just defend with lings vs his lings, by the time his speed is done and he has banes, you can have 4/5 roaches, a queen and lings vs ling bane. He won't have a chance.

Edit: Your welcome.........

this is where i hate the current metagame so much. it seems impossible to punish zvz fe these days (without doing a high risk all in).

UnholyGregor

seraphimvc wrote: »

this is where i hate the current metagame so much. it seems impossible to punish zvz fe these days (without doing a high risk all in).

Fast expand it the norm for zerg for everything, its always been that way. Besides, you prefer cheesey 10 min luck based games to long macro games, where the better player nearly always wins?
Why would want to punish fast expo anyway in zvz, you should fe yourself, unless your afraid of not being able to win a macro game( in which case you should be in any league above gold)

seraphimvc

it has nothing to do with the inability or ability to play a macro war, a player should be able to choose 1)punish the fe or 2)macro game, i like to play my game reactively. it used to be BO lost in fast fe in zvz. i usually play safe fe in zvz (20+ food) while i am surprised nowadays so many z blind fe in zvz.

UnholyGregor

seraphimvc wrote: »

it has nothing to do with the inability or ability to play a macro war, a player should be able to choose 1)punish the fe or 2)macro game, i like to play my game reactively. it used to be BO lost in fast fe in zvz. i usually play safe fe in zvz (20+ food) while i am surprised nowadays so many z blind fe in zvz.

Metagame evolved. People realise fast expo's the way to go with zerg. Whats wrong with that?

Sparticle

seraphimvc wrote: »

it has nothing to do with the inability or ability to play a macro war, a player should be able to choose 1)punish the fe or 2)macro game, i like to play my game reactively. it used to be BO lost in fast fe in zvz. i usually play safe fe in zvz (20+ food) while i am surprised nowadays so many z blind fe in zvz.

In ZvZ the defender always has the advantage due to near simultaneous production cycles i.e if you move out with an army he will have an extra cycle of production on you. This fact makes playing defensively in ZvZ the better choice for the first 10 mins where even small differences in the number of units and positioning are exponentially magnified. It may have been a BO loss in the past but players have learned how to defend sling all-ins since then (Queen block/Fast roach/Spine positioning) and now a competent FE player will have the advantage if his/her opponent opens with a standard speed build.

15 Hatch > 14 pool. Just the way it works.

RoyalMarine

Sparticle wrote: »

In ZvZ the defender always has the advantage due to near simultaneous production cycles i.e if you move out with an army he will have an extra cycle of production on you. This fact makes playing defensively in ZvZ the better choice for the first 10 mins where even small differences in the number of units and positioning are exponentially magnified. It may have been a BO loss in the past but players have learned how to defend sling all-ins since then (Queen block/Fast roach/Spine positioning) and now a competent FE player will have the advantage if his/her opponent opens with a standard speed build.

15 Hatch > 14 pool. Just the way it works.

when I play ZvZ, i always go 15 hatch.
They usually have gone 13/14 pool, and I always scout it. When i do, by the time they're units get to me, I have moved my second queen down from my main to the ramp, I have 2 spines up blocking the mineral line, and I can defend it off very easily.

FE zerg players nearly always defend it off. I really dont know why when someone goes ZvZ they even attempt a 14 pool, its MADNESS!

godspal

http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-132-back-to-the-basics-the-mental-checklist-3751430
interesting video.
Day[9] is great.

Sabre0001

Day[9] IS great

godspal

got my first rage quite. basically accusing zerg of being op'ed, which has certainly put me in a good mood!

anymore tips for improving would be really appreciated. thanks.

VikingErik

godspal wrote: »

got my first rage quite. basically accusing zerg of being op'ed, which has certainly put me in a good mood!

anymore tips for improving would be really appreciated. thanks.

I also think zerg is OP (if played perfectly). But I know it's really difficult to play zerg well so I keep my mouth quiet about it for the most part.

I lost 6 voidrays to fungal growth yesterday. I think psy storm should be buffed vs air units. Protoss has far to weak anti-air options.

So to bring this back on topic.

Godspal - we should play! I need to work on my "shark mode" vs zerg.

How's your creep spread? I played RM yesterday and he had amazing creep spread and I found it really intimidating to walk my units on it cause I knew he could surround at any point. It really gets into your opponents head when he sees creep all over the place.

Sparticle

VikingErik wrote: »

I also think zerg is OP (if played perfectly). But I know it's really difficult to play zerg well so I keep my mouth quiet about it for the most part.

I lost 6 voidrays to fungal growth yesterday. I think psy storm should be buffed vs air units. Protoss has far to weak anti-air options.

So to bring this back on topic.

Godspal - we should play! I need to work on my "shark mode" vs zerg.

How's your creep spread? I played RM yesterday and he had amazing creep spread and I found it really intimidating to walk my units on it cause I knew he could surround at any point. It really gets into your opponents head when he sees creep all over the place.

Protoss bad AA? Phoenix roflpwn Mutas, Void rays counter corrupters (Zerg's "air superiority unit") at critical mass and ARCHONS ABSOLUTELY DESTROY MUTALISKS (Seriously try this it is quite a sight to behold). The first thing you should do as toss beyond the 12 min mark is clean up the creep with your first or second observer. Creep is very hard to replace as once the initial momentum is gone other menial tasks distract the zerg player.

UnholyGregor

VikingErik wrote: »

I lost 6 voidrays to fungal growth yesterday.

You are terrible.

godspal

@UnHolyGregor Harsh! But... I was wondering about that one too.

@VikingErik I will be on around 11 if you want to play then.

VikingErik

Sparticle wrote: »

Protoss bad AA? Phoenix roflpwn Mutas, Void rays counter corrupters (Zerg's "air superiority unit") at critical mass and ARCHONS ABSOLUTELY DESTROY MUTALISKS (Seriously try this it is quite a sight to behold). The first thing you should do as toss beyond the 12 min mark is clean up the creep with your first or second observer. Creep is very hard to replace as once the initial momentum is gone other menial tasks distract the zerg player.

Well, the main problem with your argument is that protoss can't produce these units as quickly as a 2/3 hatch zerg once they decide to switch production. With corruption I'm pretty sure corrupters own Voidrays. Maybe your right about pheonix vs mutas but once again, if zerg is making mutas, protoss can't react fast enough and get those pheonix out. Archons is a fair point, but they are too costly and slow. You really don't want archons camping in your mineral line. And finally, I'm not talking about "critical mass".

Anyway, I'm not trying to be a jerk about this. The three races have different pros and cons. And the only really good counter-air unit that protoss has and can deploy quick enough is blink stalkers. Once Voidrays or pheonix are scouted you pretty much need to stop producing them unless you're investing in upgrades for them and have at least 2 stargates. That was the point I was making.

RoyalMarine

UnholyGregor wrote: »

this is why if your below masters, your opinion is worthless

Right,

Im a fair mod, and I have no problem with people talking about what ever they like.... to a point..

There are a wide variety of skill levelled players on boards.ie.

saying someone's opinion is worthless will not be tolerated here, and it violates the rules of boards.ie.

So if this happens again, you will not be welcome here.

regards,
RM.

godspal

@VikingErik I would have to agree with UnHolyGregor (even though he's being a bit obnoxious). Any Race the Op'ed-ness of each means nothing to us Bronzies.

Actually the only Patch difference i was able to take advantage of was the 6 seconds for grounding spin crawlers. And I nearly always **** it up.

Aside from that, we can't take advantage of our individual races op. I can't micro, I can barely macro, my mouse accuracy is terrible, my hotkey use is improving, but still extremely poor, my production is slow, my saturation is slow, my tactics in battle consist of "overwhelm the enemy on the ground, take care of the air defensively, and keep on producing units." Not exactly chess-like, I am no Napoleon, I am not acting reactively, its too rigid, and I will never be able to beat someone in any sort of sophisticated way if I keep this up.

The things we bronzies should be worried about is Day[9]'s mental checklist:
-Drone/SCV/Probe Production
-Low Food
-Build Order
-Unit Production

When you got those 4 down to automatic, and the timings precise. You can add:
-Creep Production/Chrono-boast
-Army Control
-Individual Unit Control.

The video I posted he uses just his mouse hand just to show how easy SC2 can become if your remember your mental checklist.

RoyalMarine

Ive removed all the **** from this thread...
please keep it on topic for the help of the thread creator.

godspal

Jeez <--- :P RM

I suppose I am trying to get it back on topic. But it doesn't matter, I am the OP. You can lock the thread and I will start a new one later. Wouldn't want to get anyone banned (even indirectly).

RoyalMarine

ah no your grand godspel. the thread is fine now if you need more advise.

UnholyGregor

Sorry for the for all the trolling, i get a bit carried away at times, on topic, anyone below diamond has just a couple things to worry about.

1-Money, if you got it, spend it, the only time you should have more than 500 mins in the bank when your maxed.Money= potential army, what good is 5k mins in the bank if your opponents killing your base, if your finding it low to keep your money low, build more production and expo more.

2- React to your opponent: If you see your opponent doing something, naturally, you should do the thing that makes this least effective (eg. if a zerg goes 2base muta v toss, the toss will win if he does a 6gate push, because the mutas are only a harass unit, and not a combat unit)
This is a very big deal in lower leagues, people go into a game saying, ''im going to go marine tank this game''. That is a terrible way to play, because, their sutbborness will prevent them from reacting to their opponents and taking advantage of their vulnerabilities.
Scouting is key to this, and the more you scout, the better you will be able to read your opponent, eg: if you scout a terran with no early gas, you know you will be either 2 raxed, or he will fast expo, so you know what to expect.

3- Always be doing something, even if its just re-setting rally points, never just sit there and wait for a unit to build or an upgrade to finish. Use those larva spits, chrono boosts and mules, scout constantly and play fluidly.

The only way a zerg can do damage to a protoss with something as scoutable as air rush if if the toss does literally no scouting or doesnt play 'reactively'. If you know the zerg is going muta, you can do so much to minimize it's effectiveness, blink stalkers, phoenix etc. And you can take advantage of your opponents other vulnerabilities, like a 6gate push as he wont have a big army.

The zerg needs to do serious damage to justify going muta, and if he doesnt, the only thing you can blame is ''un-reactive'' play, and bad scouting. So dont just jump on the op bandwagon, starcraft is a very cerebral game, and if you read really deep into strategies, and understand the situation, theyre alot easier to deal with.(as you see when you analyse the muta play)

ps: sorry for the trolling, I actually try to be constructive now and again...

VikingErik

Yeah, apollogies, for bad language.

And I agree with the above points Unholy made.

The phrase OP is pretty silly when overall SC2 is still an amazing game that players of all levels are enjoying equally.

godspal

Its a week on, and this the situation with my gameplay. It feels like I am improving.
But who knows.

godspal

I am just curious, how long does the cheese go on for?
I am now facing mid-higher silver and low gold players. And they are not just good at cheese, they are great at cheese.
I am winning all my macro games (which are usually against low-mid silver.) So that's a comfort. But I am getting very frustrated at the moment.

The type of cheese I face now though is 2 gate push and marine rush and mass ling. These all in builds are driving me crazy.

My Build at the moment is:
9 O/L
15: Exp
15: Pool
15: Gas

I am doing something wrong? Or will I just have to perverse with a Macro until my timings are flawless.

Orizio

godspal wrote: »

I am just curious, how long does the cheese go on for?
I am now facing mid-higher silver and low gold players. And they are not just good at cheese, they are great at cheese.
I am winning all my macro games (which are usually against low-mid silver.) So that's a comfort. But I am getting very frustrated at the moment.

If they are silver/gold then they aren't good (nevermind great) at anything, including cheese.

Deliasz

Anyway after lan I won my first match in silve league since I landed there. Against zerg...I think good macro is essential in early game and scout. I scouted his very quick second and just buker it and that was all for him.

Sparticle

godspal wrote: »

I am just curious, how long does the cheese go on for?
I am now facing mid-higher silver and low gold players. And they are not just good at cheese, they are great at cheese.
I am winning all my macro games (which are usually against low-mid silver.) So that's a comfort. But I am getting very frustrated at the moment.

The type of cheese I face now though is 2 gate push and marine rush and mass ling. These all in builds are driving me crazy.

My Build at the moment is:
9 O/L
15: Exp
15: Pool
15: Gas

I am doing something wrong? Or will I just have to perverse with a Macro until my timings are flawless.

The cheese never ever stops. Some people are in masters just because of 2 rax or 7RR.

1) Marine rush : If this isnt accompanied by a bunker then it's very easy to beat. Once you scout the 2 rax throw down a spine and defend with drones and slowlings until it's up then slowly tech to speed+Bling. If it is a bunker rush send 2 drones to kill the scv and 3-4 drones for each marine until your lings are ready. Once they are finished pull back drones and throw down spine. (If he/she pulls back cancel the spine)

2) X2 gate toss is beaten by very fast roach plain and simple. Throw down the roach warren straight after the pool finishes and try to pick off zealot 1 by 1 with lings+Queen until it finishes. Throw down a spine in your main if you're really paranoid + let your expo tank the damage.

3)Mass ling can be beaten by fast roach+queen block or spines+superior positioning. For the latter defend with slowlings until first spine is finished at expo(make sure it's in range of queens) Block ramp with both queens and build a 3rd queen in your main. Forget larva spits with your initial queens unless you're absolutely sure it's safe to move out. Slowly drone and tech to roach. You should be miles ahead then.

NeoSlicerZ

I present to you, defending the 6p without a forge and scouting the 6p pretty late.
The BM was the funniest part.

http://drop.sc/11684

godspal

I love that the Zerg player got beat. LOVE IT.
GGing and not leaving. The height of bad manners. And then he starts flaming. Humph! Horrible prick!

godspal

SILVER LEAGUE BABY! Got promoted! Thanks to everyone for their help!
And no doubt I will get stuck again, and I hope to get your help again! THANKS! (I am so excited right now! LOL)

EDIT: Have to give special shout-outs to Sabre0001 and Unholygregor.

UnholyGregor

haha just dont cheese, youl get to diamond leage easy, bit then it will stoip working and youl realise you cant play.

Sparticle

UnholyGregor wrote: »

haha just dont cheese, youl get to diamond leage easy, bit then it will stoip working and youl realise you cant play.

Greg fix your typing ffs.

Congrats on going up league. The silver to gold gap isn't too large you'll be there in no time.

godspal

Its not Greg, its Grack!

And as for the silver league, well actually I have won 8 out of my last ten games. And now I am starting to play mainly gold players.

Still struggling against toss though.
My build:
-9 O/L
-15 Expo
-14 Pool
-14 Ext
-16 O/L
@100 Gas MB
-2 Queen
-24-30 (depends on scouting) RW
(Just to deal with early pressure)

My mid game against them is either Roach/Hydra or Corrupter/Ling/Roach. But I find that if I don't crush their expo quickly that they can switch between collosi or void ray very easily. And I am stuck with a mid-game build that just doesn't work both ways. Any one able to tell me of a flexible mid-game transition.

EDIT: It gets harder and harder to scout toss when they turtle, and these are the times when I always lose.

saini

godspal wrote: »

Its not Greg, its Grack!

And as for the silver league, well actually I have won 8 out of my last ten games. And now I am starting to play mainly gold players.

Still struggling against toss though.
My build:
-9 O/L
-15 Expo
-14 Pool
-14 Ext
-16 O/L
@100 Gas MB
-2 Queen
-24-30 (depends on scouting) RW
(Just to deal with early pressure)

My mid game against them is either Roach/Hydra or Corrupter/Ling/Roach. But I find that if I don't crush their expo quickly that they can switch betweem collosi or void ray very easily. And I am stuck with a mid-game build that just doesn't work both ways. Any one able to tell me of a flexible mid-game transition.

I am surprised you get away with an early expo I usually punish and early expoing zerg as protoss. Mayb try add in infestors and a few fungals so you can tech switch if they do and use fungals to deal them?

godspal

I am surprised you get away with an early expo I usually punish and early expoing zerg as protoss.

Really? I usually can hold of any early pressure with Lings, and Roaches. I think only a couple of my recent toss games have been GG'ed in first 10 minutes, and that's because I didn't scout properly.

Actually I think there are people on this forum, and every forum, that would say FE is the only way to play FULL STOP.
But since my micro isn't that great I tend not to do it against Terran, because I always fall to early Marine/Maurder pressure. (I usually expand around 24 in ZvT.)
And since Ling/Bling is such a popular ZvZ build you are only asking for trouble with an FE.