Is it morally wrong to buy weed?

B_Fanatic

zenno wrote: »

you should be able to listen to it here online it works ok. http://www.fm104.ie/boxtube/

Don't think either sides are addressing the pressing issues.

Seachmall

tayto lover wrote: »

Her is another link to a 21 year study
http://www.otago.ac.nz/christchurch/otago014808.pdf

Nice, right.

Things to note:
The sample size, it averaged at about 1000 meaning it's 1/50th of the sample I quoted. That doesn't disprove anything but it does mean variance will be larger and inductive reasoning is more a problem. We'll leave these out but they are worth taking into consideration.

Second, it includes 14/15 year olds as well as 20/21 year olds. My study only included 20-25 year olds.

----

Cannabis use, and particularly regular or heavy use, were associated with increased rates of a range of adjustment problems in adolescence/young adulthood - other illicit drug use, crime, depression, and suicidal behaviours - with these adverse effects being most evident for school aged regular users. The findings reinforce public health concerns about minimizing the use of cannabis amongst school aged populations

This quote, and many others throughout the paper (I'll quote them individually if you want, if the suicide one quoted below) reinforce the dangers of cannabis for youngsters (same as Dr. Lyster's, I didn't cop it though) and acknowledge the threat is significantly less dangerous for those in their early twenties. As we're taking about suicide I'll quote that conclusion:

Suicide/Depression wrote:

For both suicidal ideation and suicide attempt there was a strong association at age 14-15 years: weekly users of cannabis had estimated odds of suicidal ideation that were 7.3 times and rates of suicide attempt that were 13.1 times those of nonusers. In contrast, the corresponding risk ratios at age 20-21 years were 1.8 for suicidal ideation and 0.8 for suicide attempt, suggesting that by young adulthood, cannabis use had little or no association with suicidal behaviours.

So, we can agree that cannabis is particularly dangerous for young teenagers? And while still increasing the suicidal thoughts/attempts of adults it's significantly less so?

Do you agree that, in it's current legal state, cannabis is easily gotten by teenagers?

Do you agree that if legalized, and taken out of the hands of irresponsible drug dealers, the accessibility of cannabis will be greatly reduced for those in the high danger zone?

Tayto_lover wrote:

What about this report from New Zealand Seachmall

Sorry took so long, was trying to read (skim) through it. Nice find btw.

zenno

B_Fanatic wrote: »

Don't think either sides are addressing the pressing issues.

I agree.

hopefully someone with knowledge about this comes on soon.

tayto lover

Seachmall wrote: »

Nice, right.

Things to note:
The sample size, it averaged at about 1000 meaning it's 1/50th of the sample I quoted. That doesn't disprove anything but it does mean variance will be larger and inductive reasoning is more a problem. We'll leave these out but they are worth taking into consideration.

Second, it includes 14/15 year olds as well as 20/21 year olds. My study only included 20-25 year olds.

----


This quote, and many others throughout the paper (I'll quote them individually if you want, if the suicide one quoted below) reinforce the dangers of cannabis for youngsters (same as Dr. Lyster's, I didn't cop it though) and acknowledge the threat is significantly less dangerous for those in their early twenties. As we're taking about suicide I'll quote that conclusion:


So, we can agree that cannabis is particularly dangerous for young teenagers? And while still increasing the suicidal thoughts/attempts of adults it's significantly less so?

Do you agree that, in it's current legal state, cannabis is easily gotten by teenagers?

Do you agree that if legalized, and taken out of the hands of irresponsible drug dealers, the accessibility of cannabis will be greatly reduced for those in the high danger zone?

Sorry took so long, was trying to read (skim) through it. Nice find btw.

I agree that it is very dangerous for young people anyway.
Lads like yourself may know how to handle it and know your safe limits. But like the las on the radio said, if it is legalised then everyone will grow their own and the authorities will not have that. Can't seem to come up with an acceptable solution.
Off to bed. Talk tomorrow. You are doing a goos job debating your side of the argument anyway.

IRISHREDSTAR

tayto lover wrote: »

I agree that it is very dangerous for young people anyway.
Lads like yourself may know how to handle it and know your safe limits. But like the las on the radio said, if it is legalised then everyone will grow their own and the authorities will not have that. Can't seem to come up with an acceptable solution.
Off to bed. Talk tomorrow. You are doing a goos job debating your side of the argument anyway.

hash was legalised in spain in 2003 - It's now legal to own hash, grow hash and sell hash (not for profit)
and nobody has noticed

zenno

this educational trailer is interesting...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXL7kOKckcM

also I think one important thing to concider as well is hash, compared to cannabis.

hash block in ireland and elsewhere has so many bad and dangerous things mixed with it and crushed into the forming of the hash-block that it would never be wise to smoke that garbage.

but the cannabis plant if grown correctly will be natural and will not have dangerous mixtures of s*it in the buds and as such would be safer imo.

I have personally smoked cannabis now and again (when i like to relax) on and off when i feel like it for the last 28 years and I am not addicted nor have I ever had a paranoid experience with it as I personally use it in moderation as I have things to do in my life so I would just have one or two on my own time for relaxation purposes.

and also I personally think it should be legally regulated in ireland. just because alcohol and tabacco were passed into law to be legalised and the scientific facts on the dangers of doing so would be detremental to a society. cannabis should have had priority over alcohol in old law as you would not see the evil acts of humans attacking eachother every f*cking day and night if that was the case.

legal alcohol has destroyed many a family and lives. cannabis has not. thats my 2 cent.

but I will admit that some people will get paranoid after smoking too much of it. as they say too much of anything can damage you but in moderation it will not have this effect imo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHBsxfbgrbY

IRISHREDSTAR

what whould really happen if cannabis was legal -
The goverment could tax it.

Less money to be spent on law and jails.(billlions saved)
Less Tax payers money spent on useless and dangerous drugs
Criminal gangs would lose out not only from cannabis sales but as cannbis when illegal acts as a gateway drugs they would also see sales of serious drugs drop ( holland did not have a heroin epidemic like Ireland as nobody was going to drug dealers)

lightspeed

im not sure if its already been mentioned but some people worry about the money from drugs going to some bad violent thugs which there is a lot of truth in such a statement but do the people that feel this way feel just as bad when they buy nike or addidas clothing? I was reading about an 11 year old blind girl that works sewing addidas and puma and other top brand name clothes. have a read of the article ive linked below. The first qoute from chairman of Newcastle United Fc really shows the profit we contribute to exploitation of children everyday. So i have to ask for all those that worry fueling the drugs industry by buying some hash or cok would you feel just as guilty when your son or daughter asks for the next new football jersey for their birthday or christmas present? Im gonna guess that since we all already know that most of our clothes are made by children but just dont care then you will have no issue in purchasing a brand name clothing item in the future where you are fully aware you contribute greatly to child slavery. Ill take the time to consider prostitution and drugs as exploitation when the rest of the developed world feels as outraged about child slavery. its called hypocrisy

http://www.heureka.clara.net/gaia/global02.htm

IRISHREDSTAR

WEDNESDAY, MAY 25 2011
bipartisan bill introduced in U.S. senate by lead sponsors. Rep. Pete Stark and Rep. Dana Rohrabacher to tax profits from cannabis as it is now legal in 14 u.s. states and growing.

haydar

Here is a good book on the subject. Cannabis: A History.

Interesting read and as far as I can tell is unbiased. After reading it knocked any doubt I had about cannabis. My bird used to give out to me for smoking it and i got her to read it. Changed her mind too!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cannabis-History-Martin-Booth/dp/0553814184/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1306379935&sr=8-1

Console

Cant believe this thread is 25 pages long.
While it can be simply summed up:

- If you smoke weed you aint going to have a problem with it. Lets be honest, if someone likes something they dont care about the negitive.
- if you hate drugs, then fair enough. Its other peoples choice.


/ thread :pac:

tayto lover

Console wrote: »

Cant believe this thread is 25 pages long.
While it can be simply summed up:

- If you smoke weed you aint going to have a problem with it. Lets be honest, if someone likes something they dont care about the negitive.
- if you hate drugs, then fair enough. Its other peoples choice.


/ thread :pac:

Right then lets get back on track --
Cannabis is illegal here at present and as a result many people using it are helping fund criminal gangs and maybe contributing to murders in our country.
Is there a moral issue around cannabis use as it stands now ?
Forget about when/if its legalised.

Hookah

tayto lover wrote: »

Right then lets get back on track --
Cannabis is illegal here at present and as a result many people using it are helping fund criminal gangs and maybe contributing to murders in our country.
Is there a moral issue around cannabis use as it stands now ?
Forget about when/if its legalised.

But you're still tapping away on your computer, and I assume using your mobile, after being informed of the high probability of conflict coltan being used in their construction.

Who are you to lecture us on morals?

I buy my weed direct from a grower here, btw. Nobody is killed or maimed during it's production.

Fukuyama

tayto lover wrote: »

I agree that it is very dangerous for young people anyway.
Lads like yourself may know how to handle it and know your safe limits. But like the las on the radio said, if it is legalised then everyone will grow their own and the authorities will not have that. Can't seem to come up with an acceptable solution.
Off to bed. Talk tomorrow. You are doing a goos job debating your side of the argument anyway.

People would grow their own?

Hmm. I'll admit those who are really into it might. It can be a fun process. Very scientific in fact and can be very rewarding. But most people just want a bit of weed - hence the reason they go to a dealer (in my opinion it's more risky going to a dealer).

By your way of thinking, every person who smokes tobacco should be growing it out in their back yard...

tayto lover

Hookah wrote: »

But you're still tapping away on your computer, and I assume using your mobile, after being informed of the high probability of conflict coltan being used in their construction.

Who are you to lecture us on morals?

I buy my weed direct from a grower here, btw. Nobody is killed or maimed during it's production.

Is the debate on phones or computers or are you just trying to deflect from the title of the thread, which incidentally i did not start. If you want to talk about phones/computers then start another thread. Same with Nike, Addidas etc. If you buy from a grower truthfully are you out of the loop as its still illegal ?

tayto lover

Dean0088 wrote: »

People would grow their own?

Hmm. I'll admit those who are really into it might. It can be a fun process. Very scientific in fact and can be very rewarding. But most people just want a bit of weed - hence the reason they go to a dealer (in my opinion it's more risky going to a dealer).

By your way of thinking, every person who smokes tobacco should be growing it out in their back yard...

Where did i say that people should grow their own ?
Why do you find it risky going to a dealer ? Is it because its illegal and do you find it morally wrong if so ?

Hookah

tayto lover wrote: »

Is the debate on phones or computers or are you just trying to deflect from the title of the thread, which incidentally i did not start. If you want to talk about phones/computers then start another thread. Same with Nike, Addidas etc.

Fair enough. Back to moralising with you, so.

If you buy from a grower truthfully are you out of the loop as its still illegal ?

Illegal does not equal immoral. I don't believe it's immoral for me to purchase a certain variety of flower and ingest in it in such a way that I cause no harm, loss or injury to another.

Fukuyama

tayto lover wrote: »

If you buy from a grower truthfully are you out of the loop as its still illegal ?

Illegal does not equal immoral. Plenty o things are and have been illegal which were not immoral. Women voting, gay rights, black people having equal rights etc etc...

If you buy from a dealer then I don't see it as immoral - the negative effects of that transaction are not your own doing. Its the doing of prohibition and the dealers. Same way buying clothes, computers etc... effects wars and third-world countries.

Buying from a grower is TOTALLY not immoral. Whose getting hurt? Nobody.

Just because there's a law against something doesn't mean it's wrong.

Common law I would see as being based on morals. Statute law is just 'temporary' laws that are always open to change as society adjusts and advances.

tayto lover

Hookah wrote: »

Fair enough. Back to moralising with you, so.



Illegal does not equal immoral. I don't believe it's immoral for me to purchase a certain variety of flower and ingest in it in such a way that I cause no harm, loss or injury to another.

Good. But do you ever think as you roll and light up "am i effecting anyone else by continuing with my habit, is anyone suffering as a result of what i'm doing" ? Or
"Am i showing good example by doing this" ?

Believe it or not i am genuinely interested in these issues and i am not trying to put anyone down. Some of my questions and points might be a bit blunt but i'm afraid thats the way i am. Sorry if i offend anyone and i don't intend to lecture anyone, i'm just interested.

Fukuyama

tayto lover wrote: »

Where did i say that people should grow their own ?
Why do you find it risky going to a dealer ? Is it because its illegal and do you find it morally wrong if so ?

You paraphrased a radio interview in which you said if legalised, everyone will grow their own. There is no evidence to suggest this and there is evidence to the contrary.

No. I don't find it morally wrong going to a dealer - not that I do anyway. When I said it's more risky, I meant one had a greater chance of encountering dodgy sort of people. Granted a lot of drug dealers aren't what the papers would have you believe. Many are out-of-work trades people etc... selling a bit of grass on the side. Sound chaps. Also, there's a greater risk of running into the boys in blue as you're leaving your house to go get some grass.

You asked me do I find it morally wrong because it's illegal. Do you set your moral code by whats written down in the statute books? Do you not think for yourself? Before 1993 did you think being gay was immoral??

tayto lover

Dean0088 wrote: »

Illegal does not equal immoral. Plenty o things are and have been illegal which were not immoral. Women voting, gay rights, black people having equal rights etc etc...

If you buy from a dealer then I don't see it as immoral - the negative effects of that transaction are not your own doing. Its the doing of prohibition and the dealers. Same way buying clothes, computers etc... effects wars and third-world countries.

Buying from a grower is TOTALLY not immoral. Whose getting hurt? Nobody.

Just because there's a law against something doesn't mean it's wrong.

Common law I would see as being based on morals. Statute law is just 'temporary' laws that are always open to change as society adjusts and advances.

OK but if there is a law against something then it is wrong surely. If i drive at 100 moph in a 60 zone and don't hit anyone i am still wrong surely.

tayto lover

tayto lover wrote: »

Good. But do you ever think as you roll and light up "am i effecting anyone else by continuing with my habit, is anyone suffering as a result of what i'm doing" ? Or
"Am i showing good example by doing this" ?

The first question is the only relevant one when determining morality. The latter is not important, as something is not immoral just because it may not necessarily be setting a good example.

Joyriding is not immoral because it sets a bad example, but because it could - and does - destroy the property and lives of other people.

tayto lover wrote:

OK but if there is a law against something then it is wrong surely. If i drive at 100 moph in a 60 zone and don't hit anyone i am still wrong surely.

Yes, although your correlation is mixed up: you would be wrong, but not as a result of its prohibition. You would be wrong as you could very easily hit and kill someone. It is illegal because it is extremely dangerous, not vice-versa.

the_syco

IRISHREDSTAR wrote: »

WEDNESDAY, MAY 25 2011
bipartisan bill introduced in U.S. senate by lead sponsors. Rep. Pete Stark and Rep. Dana Rohrabacher to tax profits from cannabis as it is now legal in 14 u.s. states and growing.

http://coloradoindependent.com/89185/three-pro-marijuana-bills-introduced-in-congress-today

One way to ensure something lasts: make it taxable.

Hookah

tayto lover wrote: »

Good. But do you ever think as you roll and light up "am i effecting anyone else by continuing with my habit, is anyone suffering as a result of what i'm doing" ? Or
"Am i showing good example by doing this" ?

I affect nobody else when I smoke.

Nobody suffers.

I generally only smoke in the company of other smokers, so the example part doesn't come into it.

Believe it or not i am genuinely interested in these issues and i am not trying to put anyone down. Some of my questions and points might be a bit blunt but i'm afraid thats the way i am. Sorry if i offend anyone and i don't intend to lecture anyone, i'm just interested.

I believe I am a minor actor in the drama of the transition from an alcohol-based society, and all the violence and destruction that goes with it, to a more peaceful, cannabis-based society.

Roll on.

Fukuyama

tayto lover wrote: »

Good. But do you ever think as you roll and light up "am i effecting anyone else by continuing with my habit, is anyone suffering as a result of what i'm doing" ? Or
"Am i showing good example by doing this" ?

Believe it or not i am genuinely interested in these issues and i am not trying to put anyone down. Some of my questions and points might be a bit blunt but i'm afraid thats the way i am. Sorry if i offend anyone and i don't intend to lecture anyone, i'm just interested.

listen. By doing pretty much anything in this world you're effecting others in a negative way. I'll give you another classic drug example that is much more addictive than cannabis and has more health problems... Caffine. Ever wonder what implications that cup of coffee in your hand has had to children somewhere in South America?

If the world was so concerned with minimising the effects of weed on the third-party it'd be legalised, sold in shops, jobs created etc...

Should be make coffee, nike runners, computer chips illegal? As you type on your keyboard, do YOU think of the moral implications? You do in my ****!

Fukuyama

tayto lover wrote: »

OK but if there is a law against something then it is wrong surely. If i drive at 100 moph in a 60 zone and don't hit anyone i am still wrong surely.

Indeed you are because you could have killed someone. I didn't say all statute law was rubbish. There's good reasons behind traffic laws one which few could debate.

Are you aware of the reasons cannabis was made illegal?

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

The first question is the only relevant one when determining morality. The latter is not important, as something is not immoral just because it may not necessarily be setting a good example.

Joyriding is not immoral because it sets a bad example, but because it could - and does - destroy the property and lives of other people.



Yes, although your correlation is mixed up: you would be wrong, but not as a result of its prohibition. You would be wrong as you could very easily hit and kill someone. It is illegal because it is extremely dangerous, not vice-versa.

So do you think buying from a dealer or showing bad example to younger people by smoking weed in from of them is morally wrong ?
Here is a little article i found interesting
http://www.philosophyetc.net/2004/08/law-morality.html

tayto lover

Dean0088 wrote: »

Indeed you are because you could have killed someone. I didn't say all statute law was rubbish. There's good reasons behind traffic laws one which few could debate.

Are you aware of the reasons cannabis was made illegal?

Yes and aware of the reasons it was kept illegal too. They are on previous pages.

Fukuyama

tayto lover wrote: »

Yes and aware of the reasons it was kept illegal too. They are on previous pages.

I'm sorry but law needs to be consistent. Can I assume you support the making illegal of alcohol, tobacco, cough syrup and bananas?

tayto lover

tayto lover wrote: »

So do you think buying from a dealer or showing bad example to younger people by smoking weed in from of them is morally wrong ?
Here is a little article i found interesting
http://www.philosophyetc.net/2004/08/law-morality.html

It depends on the circumstances regarding the dealer. Many dealers are independent cultivators, or know the grower, and they are productive and passive members of society, in which case it is not immoral. It is a common opinion among users of Cannabis (and other drugs) that funding black market gangs who may be engaged in unsavoury criminal (e.g. violence, extortion, exploitation) is immoral. There is a very obvious difference here.

I do not think it is any less moral to smoke Cannabis in front of children than it is to smoke tobacco or have a few drinks. If I had kids and I smoked weed (I do not), I would not expose them to it until they were old enough to understand; the very same would apply to alcohol and/or tobacco.

The function of the law is very simple: to protect things (be it humans, animals or the environment) from other humans. It is not justifiable to attempt to protect people from themselves.