Why bother with Grad med when you can do this?

alisonl

UCC are interviewing at the end of this week for up to 4 mature student undergrad medicine places. They are interviewing mature students (non degree holders), who do not have 2 honours in 2 LC science subjects. In fact, there are interviewing candidates who do not even have ONE honour in ONE LC science subject, and are not sitting 2 science subjects in The LC in June. Can anyone please explain???

I mean, what's the point getting a 2.1.in college; trying to ace the GAMSAT; and having a 2nd mortgage with grad fees when you can just can just get a cert in X, Y or Z; earn a living; hang out for 5-15 years; sit the HPAT; say you'll resit chemistry in the LC; have no college fees and apply for a grant?

Here is their entry requirements (not currently being followed)

Mature Students Requirements UCC:
Mature applicants apply through the CAO for CK701, and must have knowledge of Chemistry and either Physics or Biology (minimum HC3 in the Leaving Certificate or equivalent). Applicants are also required to sit the HPAT-Ireland admissions test for entry to medicine and the score is a mandatory criterion to be used as part of the selection process. There are up to four places on the undergraduate Medicine programme (CK701) for Mature Students.

alisonl

Hang out for 5 - 25+ years post LC. "Hang out" as in work and do whatever.

Sid_Justice

because from time to time there's an extraordinary candidate who has the interest, aptitude and motivation for medicine who doesn't fit into the other brackets.

HQvhs

You can be sure that there will be a lot of competition for those 4 places, so someone who spent a few years 'hanging out' won't just walk into the course.

DaveATT

I disagree with what you're saying Alisonl. It's not like they're giving 20 places away, those 4 lucky people who get it out of so many applying will definitely be competent enough to do it, and saying that they are 'hanging out' is a bit ridiculous. I'm going into my final year of physio and the two best people in my class got into the course through an access programme, not through leaving cert points. It's good to see UCC giving people like that a chance!

alisonl

Sid_Justice wrote: »

because from time to time there's an extraordinary candidate who has the interest, aptitude and motivation for medicine who doesn't fit into the other brackets.

Point taken. What about certificate holders from the early 90s, who have this and the HPAT and their job inbetween, extraordinary??

alisonl

DaveATT wrote: »

I disagree with what you're saying Alisonl. It's not like they're giving 20 places away, those 4 lucky people who get it out of so many applying will definitely be competent enough to do it, and saying that they are 'hanging out' is a bit ridiculous. I'm going into my final year of physio and the two best people in my class got into the course through an access programme, not through leaving cert points. It's good to see UCC giving people like that a chance!

I'm not talking about access programmes. Are you referring to something like TAP? (Trinity Access Programme). Someone in Physio would usually have honours in LC science subjects.

I'm saying UCC have published entry requirements for mature students.

I'm saying what's the point in trying to get into med via the grad route when you can get a cert, get a job, and get free fees/grant?

Biologic

I think you're massively underestimating the competition for these places and the quality of applicant. The low entry requirement doesn't mean they accept anyone, it just means they have a (commendably) wide applicant base. The rhetorical person you're suggesting, with a cert in basket weaving and 10 years weaving experience, simply won't get in unless they have something special. Also, it says there are up to 4 places, meaning that if the applicants aren't suitably motivated and able, the places won't be allocated.

DaveATT

alisonl wrote: »

I'm not talking about access programmes. Are you referring to something like TAP? (Trinity Access Programme). Someone in Physio would usually have honours in LC science subjects.

I'm saying UCC have published entry requirements for mature students.

I'm saying what's the point in trying to get into med via the grad route when you can get a cert, get a job, and get free fees/grant?

Yes but my point was that just because someone doesn't appear to fit the requirements of a course for whatever reason doesn't mean that they're not capable

I understand your point though and it is misleading because the Grad route's minimum requirements are a 1:1 or 2:1 degree etc but don't underestimate the challenge it is for mature students to do it either:)

Sid_Justice

alisonl wrote: »

Point taken. What about certificate holders from the early 90s, who have this and the HPAT and their job inbetween, extraordinary??

I think the UCC has listed absolutely minimal requirements. Mature entry is based very much on personal circumstances unlike the other methods which are purely performance in a one or two exams. If someone left score in the early 90s and did really well in the HPAT and had tonnes of hospital experience I think they're as qualifed as anyone else to become a first year.

Bella mamma

The OP has made a good point, if correct. There are defined entry requirements for School Leavers, Mature Students and Grads. I don't know of any Medical School not following entry requirements. There is no doubt there would be Mature Student applicants who do have two honours in two Leaving Cert science subjects (or A-Level), so if they have lost out (by way of no interview) to applicants who currently have 1 (or no) honour(s) in Leaving Cert science subjects, that's not right..............

Sid, appreciate what you're saying. Still have to have those absolutely minimal requirements though or not?

On the subject of Mature Student cert applicants v. Grad applicants, it's obviously more financially advantageous to apply as the former, there's just not enough places. I'd assume cert applicants mostly have a Nursing background, considering Nursing was a cert (RGN qualification) for decades until it became a diploma and then a degree. There are lots of cert holders applying who have had a job for 10, 15, 20, 25 years and then done the HPAT, I think the OP's choice of "hanging around" could have been better phrased as 'in employment'.

If I were a School Leaver again, I'd be strongly inclined to repeat my Leaving/HPAT again and again if feasible and realistic, v. going the grad route.

G rock

The financial argument only holds up if the entrant doesn't have a degree already though right?

mature entry covers those with a degree already too doesn't it?

Traumadoc

Bella mamma wrote: »

The OP has made a good point, if correct. There are defined entry requirements for School Leavers, Mature Students and Grads. I don't know of any Medical School not following entry requirements. There is no doubt there would be Mature Student applicants who do have two honours in two Leaving Cert science subjects (or A-Level), so if they have lost out (by way of no interview) to applicants who currently have 1 (or no) honour(s) in Leaving Cert science subjects, that's not right..............

Sid, appreciate what you're saying. Still have to have those absolutely minimal requirements though or not?

On the subject of Mature Student cert applicants v. Grad applicants, it's obviously more financially advantageous to apply as the former, there's just not enough places. I'd assume cert applicants mostly have a Nursing background, considering Nursing was a cert (RGN qualification) for decades until it became a diploma and then a degree. There are lots of cert holders applying who have had a job for 10, 15, 20, 25 years and then done the HPAT, I think the OP's choice of "hanging around" could have been better phrased as 'in employment'.

If I were a School Leaver again, I'd be strongly inclined to repeat my Leaving/HPAT again and again if feasible and realistic, v. going the grad route.

Plenty of students get in on less requirements than those for Irish students, eg northern Irish, Malaysian.
There were always mature students such as nurses who got in on less points than LC students.
The graduate entry program was introduced as a cheap way for the government to increase the number of graduates, with mininmum cost to the egovernment and allowing them to address the gender imbalance.

It will be interesting when graduates find they will not be able to pay back the graduate loans as easily as predicted.

SpiderP

I don't normally post on this forum but having read some of the comments made on this subject, I couldn't resist any longer!

I'm a student in a grad entry program here in Ireland, and based on my own experiences I'd like to offer the following...

I am an Irish qualified pharmacist, and have worked in the hospital and community sectors in Ireland and the UK. Having made the decision to go back to medical school in Ireland I researched my options and found that I could either go down the 4yr grad route having obtained a 2:1 in my degree, or apply for a place as a mature student being over 23yrs of age.

Originally I was a bit put out by the grad entry route as the GAMSAT seemed rather laborious. But after some further digging for information I discovered that doing the HPAT alone would be no less so, given that the mature student route requires an interview as well as the exam. In addition to this there are significantly less places available from medical schools for mature students. This is evidenced from the fact that, from what I recall when I applied, Trinity were offering 3/4, RCSI 8-10 and Cork 4 (I can't recall the places available in UCD, and NUIG were not accepting mature students when I contacted them). These places are very much in demand, and people should be under no illusions as to otherwise - not everyone who applies gets to the interview stage. When I was a pharmacy student, I struck up a conversation with one of my lecturers as to the nature of the mature applicant interviews for the pharmacy course. He said that these places were there to people who never had an opportunity to attend university as school leavers an opportunity to do so as mature (>23yrs) adults, having demonstrated adequately that they were suitable for the course. Having said this, they weren't solely reserved for such candidates, as graduate candidates with other degrees frequently gain places. I don't think it's wholly unreasonable to extrapolate this attitude to the interview process for other health sciences courses.

I applied for a place on the graduate courses throughout the country and for a mature student place in the Dublin medical schools. I did the HPAT and the GAMSAT and was offered interviews for RCSI and Trinity. I attended the interview in TCD having been one of the ten or so people shortlisted.

I only spoke to two other people who were called for interview in TCD, having met them waiting to be called in. They both came from very diverse backgrounds, neither science or health science related but had both spent the past number of years working full time in their respective fields. The interview involved sitting in front of a panel of 6/7 people (various lecturers/profs from the medical school), and having done numerous interviews in my career I can honestly say it was by no means a soft interview. While all the interview panel were very pleasant, the questions came hard and fast and sought to challenge my decision to return to study, my knowledge and opinions on healthcare in Ireland and the UK (having worked in both) and also on various extracurricular activities I partake in. All in all the interview lasted about 20 mins.

I had sat the GAMSAT prior to the interview process for the mature student entry route. My own experience of GAMSAT is that yes, it is a difficult exam. But with the right preparation it is possible to do well. I was lucky, given my pharmacy background, that I was particularly strong in chemistry and biology. However my physics wasn't up to much having not done it as a subject in the LC and having only had brief encounters with it as an undergraduate. I think people get very stressed out about the thoughts of the GAMSAT given the fact that it's a pretty daunting hurdle to overcome for people who have a burning desire to study medicine. But to be honest, repeating the leaving cert and doing the HPAT on the grounds that the GAMSAT is a difficult/arduous exam is serious hogwash in my opinion. If you're committed to and passionate about wanting to go back and study medicine, I think that the best strategy is to cover all the bases to give yourself as good a chance as possible to attain a place. Using this strategy I was offered a place on the undergraduate course in Trinity and also a place on a graduate course in Dublin.

Having been through both processes in the same year I think it's a bad idea to not go down one route over another. You leave yourself seriously short on options. Another point that should be addressed is that while these entry exams are hard, stressful and damn right frustrating at times, so is studying medicine. I'm really enjoying my course at the minute but I'd be lying if I said it was easy. You have to work hard and stay on top of your game if you want to come out the other end. If you want to do this, get used to it, it's not like it's all plain sailing once you get in the door.

Sorry for the length of the post, thanks for taking the time to read it - I hope it helps!

spacecat

SpiderP wrote: »

I don't normally post on this forum but having read some of the comments made on this subject, I couldn't resist any longer!

I'm a student in a grad entry program here in Ireland, and based on my own experiences I'd like to offer the following...

I am an Irish qualified pharmacist, and have worked in the hospital and community sectors in Ireland and the UK. Having made the decision to go back to medical school in Ireland I researched my options and found that I could either go down the 4yr grad route having obtained a 2:1 in my degree, or apply for a place as a mature student being over 23yrs of age.

Originally I was a bit put out by the grad entry route as the GAMSAT seemed rather laborious. But after some further digging for information I discovered that doing the HPAT alone would be no less so, given that the mature student route requires an interview as well as the exam. In addition to this there are significantly less places available from medical schools for mature students. This is evidenced from the fact that, from what I recall when I applied, Trinity were offering 3/4, RCSI 8-10 and Cork 4 (I can't recall the places available in UCD, and NUIG were not accepting mature students when I contacted them). These places are very much in demand, and people should be under no illusions as to otherwise - not everyone who applies gets to the interview stage. When I was a pharmacy student, I struck up a conversation with one of my lecturers as to the nature of the mature applicant interviews for the pharmacy course. He said that these places were there to people who never had an opportunity to attend university as school leavers an opportunity to do so as mature (>23yrs) adults, having demonstrated adequately that they were suitable for the course. Having said this, they weren't solely reserved for such candidates, as graduate candidates with other degrees frequently gain places. I don't think it's wholly unreasonable to extrapolate this attitude to the interview process for other health sciences courses.

I applied for a place on the graduate courses throughout the country and for a mature student place in the Dublin medical schools. I did the HPAT and the GAMSAT and was offered interviews for RCSI and Trinity. I attended the interview in TCD having been one of the ten or so people shortlisted.

I only spoke to two other people who were called for interview in TCD, having met them waiting to be called in. They both came from very diverse backgrounds, neither science or health science related but had both spent the past number of years working full time in their respective fields. The interview involved sitting in front of a panel of 6/7 people (various lecturers/profs from the medical school), and having done numerous interviews in my career I can honestly say it was by no means a soft interview. While all the interview panel were very pleasant, the questions came hard and fast and sought to challenge my decision to return to study, my knowledge and opinions on healthcare in Ireland and the UK (having worked in both) and also on various extracurricular activities I partake in. All in all the interview lasted about 20 mins.

I had sat the GAMSAT prior to the interview process for the mature student entry route. My own experience of GAMSAT is that yes, it is a difficult exam. But with the right preparation it is possible to do well. I was lucky, given my pharmacy background, that I was particularly strong in chemistry and biology. However my physics wasn't up to much having not done it as a subject in the LC and having only had brief encounters with it as an undergraduate. I think people get very stressed out about the thoughts of the GAMSAT given the fact that it's a pretty daunting hurdle to overcome for people who have a burning desire to study medicine. But to be honest, repeating the leaving cert and doing the HPAT on the grounds that the GAMSAT is a difficult/arduous exam is serious hogwash in my opinion. If you're committed to and passionate about wanting to go back and study medicine, I think that the best strategy is to cover all the bases to give yourself as good a chance as possible to attain a place. Using this strategy I was offered a place on the undergraduate course in Trinity and also a place on a graduate course in Dublin.

Having been through both processes in the same year I think it's a bad idea to not go down one route over another. You leave yourself seriously short on options. Another point that should be addressed is that while these entry exams are hard, stressful and damn right frustrating at times, so is studying medicine. I'm really enjoying my course at the minute but I'd be lying if I said it was easy. You have to work hard and stay on top of your game if you want to come out the other end. If you want to do this, get used to it, it's not like it's all plain sailing once you get in the door.

Sorry for the length of the post, thanks for taking the time to read it - I hope it helps!

Great post SpiderP.

With regards to Mature Entry to Medicine: Yes you can apply with little in the way of qualifications but its worth bearing in mind that there may be a few hundred people applying for a handful of places. So how do the University choose? They are not going to interview every applicant, that would takes weeks. They can use a point system, so a candidate will gain points for educational background, work experience etc. Then, say, the top 10 people get an interview. I would imagine a person with a degree would score higher than a person with just a leaving cert. In the same way a person that has worked in the Health Care sector would score higher than a person that has worked in retail.

I guess Medicine is all about points :rolleyes:

spacecat

alisonl wrote: »

UCC are interviewing at the end of this week for up to 4 mature student undergrad medicine places. They are interviewing mature students (non degree holders), who do not have 2 honours in 2 LC science subjects. In fact, there are interviewing candidates who do not even have ONE honour in ONE LC science subject, and are not sitting 2 science subjects in The LC in June. Can anyone please explain???

I mean, what's the point getting a 2.1.in college; trying to ace the GAMSAT; and having a 2nd mortgage with grad fees when you can just can just get a cert in X, Y or Z; earn a living; hang out for 5-15 years; sit the HPAT; say you'll resit chemistry in the LC; have no college fees and apply for a grant?

Here is their entry requirements (not currently being followed)

Mature Students Requirements UCC:
Mature applicants apply through the CAO for CK701, and must have knowledge of Chemistry and either Physics or Biology (minimum HC3 in the Leaving Certificate or equivalent). Applicants are also required to sit the HPAT-Ireland admissions test for entry to medicine and the score is a mandatory criterion to be used as part of the selection process. There are up to four places on the undergraduate Medicine programme (CK701) for Mature Students.

Hey Alisonl,
Yes the interviews are tomorrow at UCC for "Mature Students" but I think you'll find that some (if not all) of those being interviewed have degrees already.
I know that in the UK there are Uni's that offer places for Mature Students based soley on life/work experence, no degrees aloud!!! I like this,;)

Traumadoc

Is there a difference in fees for mature as opposed to graduate entry?

alisonl

spacecat wrote: »

Hey Alisonl,
Yes the interviews are tomorrow at UCC for "Mature Students" but I think you'll find that some (if not all) of those being interviewed have degrees already.
I know that in the UK there are Uni's that offer places for Mature Students based soley on life/work experence, no degrees aloud!!! I like this,;)

Hey Spacecat, thank you!

I am positive that that are Irish educated nationals for interview (today) who do not have the minumim entry requirements stated by the university, they have no chemistry and no honours in LC science subjects.

No, they are not degree holders.

It's clear the university is going on life/work experience as you stated. I have no complaints there if that is what they advertised, they didn't, and many people/applicants sought to obtain those minuimum entry requirements.

To everyone, I apologise for saying "hang out" for x amount of years. I know that is life experience, but I know there are interviewees who only recently decided on this and do not have the entry requirements. That's why I was peeved as other applicants have worked more (IMO) for it. Only my opinion. Sorry.

Larianne

alisonl wrote: »

Hey Spacecat, thank you!

I am positive that that are Irish educated nationals for interview (today) who do not have the minumim entry requirements stated by the university, they have no chemistry and no honours in LC science subjects.

No, they are not degree holders.

It's clear the university is going on life/work experience as you stated. I have no complaints there if that is what they advertised, they didn't, and many people/applicants sought to obtain those minuimum entry requirements.

To everyone, I apologise for saying "hang out" for x amount of years. I know that is life experience, but I know there are interviewees who only recently decided on this and do not have the entry requirements. That's why I was peeved as other applicants have worked more (IMO) for it. Only my opinion. Sorry.

Can I ask you how you know for definite these applicants do not have the minimal entry requirements? I had applied to UCC for Pharmacy as a back up to Physio and they wouldn't look at my application because I didn't have the higher Chemsitry grade. UCC out of all the colleges, to me, has the strictest entry requirements - in that you have to have certain grades in certain leaving cert subjects.

I'd highly believe, if these applicants are like you say they are - only recently decided on this/don't have the entry requirements, won't get a place on the course. The competition for mature students places is fierce!

I'd just like to add that your posts were quite harsh on mature students. Not everyone has the opportunity to go straight to college or believes they can go to college when they finish school. And if you look at it, they are not that many places for mature students, esp. with Medicine. Your application has to be top notch pretty much. Most don't get in straight away either. I know of one girl going for it for the 3rd time. I, myself, didn't get into Physiotherapy on my first attempt and didn't feel like I deserved my place until I had completed first year.

I do understand the frustration of wanting to do a course so much and I wish you the best of luck in your application. You seem very passionate about wanting to get onto a med course. If you do meet maturies on the course, just give them a break. It won't have been an easy road for them either!

alisonl

Larianne wrote: »

Can I ask you how you know for definite these applicants do not have the minimal entry requirements? I had applied to UCC for Pharmacy as a back up to Physio and they wouldn't look at my application because I didn't have the higher Chemsitry grade. UCC out of all the colleges, to me, has the strictest entry requirements - in that you have to have certain grades in certain leaving cert subjects.

I'd highly believe, if these applicants are like you say they are - only recently decided on this/don't have the entry requirements, won't get a place on the course. The competition for mature students places is fierce!

I'd just like to add that your posts were quite harsh on mature students. Not everyone has the opportunity to go straight to college or believes they can go to college when they finish school. And if you look at it, they are not that many places for mature students, esp. with Medicine. Your application has to be top notch pretty much. Most don't get in straight away either. I know of one girl going for it for the 3rd time. I, myself, didn't get into Physiotherapy on my first attempt and didn't feel like I deserved my place until I had completed first year.

I do understand the frustration of wanting to do a course so much and I wish you the best of luck in your application. You seem very passionate about wanting to get onto a med course. If you do meet maturies on the course, just give them a break. It won't have been an easy road for them either!

I have gone about this all wrong. And I'm not an applicant. My passion is, in fact, FOR the mature students who were qualified for interiew and did not get one.

I agree with you 100% that the competition is firece and that this university is top notch. But here's the thing, at interview you can really sell yourself, but interviews should be given to currently qualified candidates.

In terms of how I know, well we all know people (or know of people) called for interview for jobs in different areas and we all know their qualifications (or lack thereof) first hand or second hand. Neither of which may make the knowledge inaccurate.

Well done on your physio place, hope you love it. Why did you think you didn't deserve it til you did the first year?

SpiderP

Traumadoc wrote: »

Is there a difference in fees for mature as opposed to graduate entry?

Grad fees vary slightly from course to course but are in and around the €14k mark per year.
Mature entrant fees are as for the undergraduate courses. Varies from college to college but in Trinity for medicine it's between €6-8K per year I think (This was a while ago now so forgive me if it's not this anymore!)

hattie

Most mature students in UCC and other colleges will have degrees (if not all) medicine is a demanding course and if you do not have a degree you will have to stongly indicate that you have the ability to manage such an intensive course... The Admissions Office are not in the habit of giving places to those who they think will not hack it not fair on the student, other applicants or the rest of the class... if you are qualified it is wise to do both GEM and mature entry... both are very competitive but you have more choice and at least with mature entry you also have an oppurtunity to covery your life skills on interview rather than just the horror of that single mark in the GAMSAT...

As for cost you can work more with graduate as less hours and terms times but then an extra year.... however that extra year means the fee difference is not so great when you take out one less year of earning money and 5 years compared to 4 years of fees.... but all options worth considering...

spacecat

alisonl wrote: »

Hey Spacecat, thank you!

I am positive that that are Irish educated nationals for interview (today) who do not have the minumim entry requirements stated by the university, they have no chemistry and no honours in LC science subjects.

No, they are not degree holders.

It's clear the university is going on life/work experience as you stated. I have no complaints there if that is what they advertised, they didn't, and many people/applicants sought to obtain those minuimum entry requirements.

To everyone, I apologise for saying "hang out" for x amount of years. I know that is life experience, but I know there are interviewees who only recently decided on this and do not have the entry requirements. That's why I was peeved as other applicants have worked more (IMO) for it. Only my opinion. Sorry.

Hey Alisonl,
I am very upset to hear that you know of someone that had an interview at UCC for undergrad Med with no LC or a degree. I mean, don't get me wrong, good luck to them and I hope they did well.

However, I did apply to UCC this year and didn't get shortlisted for interview the reason given was "there was no evidence that you (me) met the minimum entry requirement re: Chemistry and Physics/Biology".

Can I ask you....what age group is your friend in, ie 20's 30's 40' etc?

Larianne

alisonl wrote: »

In terms of how I know, well we all know people (or know of people) called for interview for jobs in different areas and we all know their qualifications (or lack thereof) first hand or second hand. Neither of which may make the knowledge inaccurate.

So you don't really know? :cool:

Like I said before, UCC have one of the more strict requirements for mature student entry. I don't see why they would have changed it or given someone special treatment.