Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Please Read OP)

Andrewf20

philologos wrote: »

Disillusioned with religion? - Anyone can be disillusioned with religious institutions.

I was referring to the core of religon, i.e. the Bible in the case of Christianity.

philologos wrote: »

As a Christian. I acknowledge that that means that I am a follower of Jesus, that I accept by His death and resurrection that He stood in my rightful place and took away my sin. As a result, I live in acknowledgement of God and I seek to serve Him fully. The church from a Biblical point of view is simply a grassroots movement of those who follow Him.

Ultimately, belief Biblically is just a wholehearted acknowledgement of Jesus, and walking in it. It isn't a "feeling" or anything else that you've described. It's simply a well founded trust in who God is and what He did through Jesus.

Belief doesn't have much to do with feeling from a Christian perspective. Irrespective of what people think or not about Christianity, ultimately something is true about God whether we like it or not. I believe in Jesus, because there is simply put good reason for me to put my trust in Him.

Muslims aren't convinced by Christianity in a similar way that you aren't convinced by Christianity. It's either because one hasn't sought out God in fullness, or it is because one has never heard of God. It could be also because people want to run from Him, because they are not willing to acknowledge that in His sight their works are evil. Jesus ultimately demands a transformation, that is costly. It can lose us friends and family, it can lose people their jobs, and ultimately people are in some regions of the world killed for believing in Jesus.

Or that a Muslim considers the Koran as the word of God for the exact reasons you consider the bible to be the one true religon.

Ive read your reply but I still dont feel satisfied that my question has been answered, why is belief so important. I ask again, name a moral or ethical act done by a believer that could not be done by a non believer?

philologos wrote: »

Limbo has nothing to do with Biblical Christianity. The concept isn't listed in the Bible once. I'm a non-Catholic Christian, I simply defend God's word on boards.ie.

Thats a fair point, however the bible (Mark 16) says:

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved", implying that if you are not baptized you wont be saved. Elsewhere it implies you dont need baptism to be saved but this creates confusion as sentences conflict with others elsewhere.

philologos wrote: »

The rejection of God is profoundly wrong. It separates us from our Creator, and ultimately leads us into the delusion that we can better guide ourselves rather than accepting the rightful standard of God. At best it is a mistake, at worst it is a lie that denies the fundamental truth about reality.

Your comment ("rejection of God") suggests that these people who dont believe in God are completely immoral with no ethics, charity or compassion which may not be the case. These can be people who help the poor, are good parents, ethical, law abiding citizens. They dont steal, or kill etc etc. I would also argue that a person who does a moral or charitable act without a hope of eternal reward (a non believer) is perhaps a more noble person than someone who does a charitable act mainly because they believe they will be rewarded in the next life. Surely some credit would be due here?

marienbad

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Is there any reason why you have given us only two options?

"Yes or no. Do you still beat your wife?"

Just the limits of my knowledge , are there other options ? Despite what Philologos may say about my agressive and rhetorical posts I am genuinely interested in the discussion.

If for no other reason than to try to bridge the gap between this position and the convesation earlier on natural justice and overarching rights . Or to get my mind round the notion that Hitler and Himmler could be in Heaven and the 6 million jews are in Hell.

Fanny Cradock

marienbad wrote: »

Only some have been offered the gift of salvation Fanny .

How so?

Fanny Cradock

marienbad wrote: »

Just the limits of my knowledge , are there other options ? Despite what Philologos may say about my agressive and rhetorical posts I am genuinely interested in the discussion.

Well, it is clear that you are angry - which isn't in and of itself a bad thing. But I do wonder why you are so angry about something you don't believe in. Do you go to Hindu or Buddhist forums to get angry about the concept of Karma? And, yes, there are other options. But it didn't really look like you were of a mind to ask for them.

marienbad wrote: »

If for no other reason than to try to bridge the gap between this position and the convesation earlier on natural justice and overarching rights . Or to get my mind round the notion that Hitler and Himmler could be in Heaven and the 6 million jews are in Hell.

So the options are that Hitler and Himmler are in Heaven and the 6 million people they killed aren't? Sorry, but why should anyone here have to defend that position?

tommy2bad

marien, its not as black n white as you paint it. We don't know about anyone else we only know that Jesus came to redeem the world and if we accept Him we too can be redeemed.
"I am the way the truth and the light" Did He mean that His mission was to set up a Christian church that could give out passes into heaven or did He mean that His death and resurrection made the gates of heaven open to everyone? I go with the latter, it makes more sense for God to do that than to set up a franchise. The RCC claim to have the keys in a vault somewhere and only they can open the gate for you if you know the secret handshake but so do all the rest.

marienbad

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

How so?

Those that have never encountered Christianity have not been offered that opportunity.

Wh1stler

ISAW wrote: »

so if you believe science is contextually linked to society and society itself isnt reducable to physical equations then science is not internally determined. it isn,t sufficient. the HD method is reliant on HPS.

But that is not my position. I think that society is reducable to physical equations in the same way that the climate can be. I'm not saying that the equations wouldn't be complicated but they can explain human behaviour in physical terms.

I think it is easy to see how forward thinking, planning and strategising would result in the emergence of morality through evolutionary processes.

I don't deny that religion has been a useful tool to mankind though, I just say that the spirit of cooperation does not depend upon the existence of God and therefore the fact that humans demonstrate morality says nothing about whether God exists or not.

But you haven't answered my question. Why would God choose priests and a dusty old book as a vehicle for recovering His treasured souls when it will result in the loss of the vast majority of those souls?

marienbad

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Well, it is clear that you are angry - which isn't in and of itself a bad thing. But I do wonder why you are so angry about something you don't believe in. Do you go to Hindu or Buddhist forums to get angry about the concept of Karma? And, yes, there are other options. But it didn't really look like you were of a mind to ask for them.



So the options are that Hitler and Himmler are in Heaven and the 6 million people they killed aren't? Sorry, but why should anyone here have to defend that position?

I am not angry at all Fanny , and I fail to see anything in my posts that would indicate so. And as to why I post here ? are you seriously asking that question ? Why have a christian/atheist thread if atheists are not welcome ? Now that would be really preaching to the converted.

The reason I post here and not in those other fora you mentioned is that I am more familiar with Christiany and it has a great influence on my life and family and where I live .

Being slightly facetious I don't and never have voted fianna fail either but I definitely take an interest in their goings on and not on say the Christian Democrats in Norway.

As for the Hitler conundrum ? What is wrong with asking it ? Either I am wrong or not according to Christianity. If I am wrong show me and if i am not , then accept the consequence of your belief . If you don't know - say so - it is not a crime.

tommy2bad

marienbad
As for the Hitler conundrum ? What is wrong with asking it ? Either I am wrong or not according to Christianity. If I am wrong show me and if i am not , then accept the consequence of your belief . If you don't know - say so - it is not a crime.

It's a fair question and deserves an answer.
You know I'll have a go According to Christian theology Adolf has as much chance of getting into heaven as anyone else. He was baptized and lived a good life, oh wait no he didn't. Well he has the option of repentance and for all we know may have in his last hours repented and sought forgiveness, I hope he did. And even if the rotten basterd didn't we should at least ask God to show mercy feel a little saddened for his destruction in the fiery lake.
Now the Jews. not baptized but chosen people who presumably led good lives and suffered through no fault of their own, no idea, best ask God for mercy and pray for their souls.
Hows that?

Wh1stler

tommy2bad wrote: »

We don't know about anyone else we only know that Jesus came to redeem the world and if we accept Him we too can be redeemed.
"I am the way the truth and the light" Did He mean that His mission was to set up a Christian church that could give out passes into heaven or did He mean that His death and resurrection made the gates of heaven open to everyone? I go with the latter, it makes more sense for God to do that than to set up a franchise.

This is the type of thing that confuses me. In Matthew 7 it says,
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 BecauseURL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-23331a"][COLOR=#0000ff]a[/COLOR][/URL narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

and

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

It seems that most will not achieve the kingdom of heaven. And doesn't the 'Camel through the eye of a needle' story exclude rich people from heaven too?

This is really my point, religion and heaven seem only to apply to the disadvantaged ones in this life. Eternity in paradise is only offered to those who cannot experience paradise in actual life.

Lantus

I think that the game is almost up for christianity and most other religions around the world. The primary source of knowledge for christianty is a 2000+ year old book which is (having read some last night) written in a very ambiguous and open manner leaving huge swathes of interpretation to the user.

The bible tethers christians to the past like an anchor that over time does more harm than good as its relevance eventually diminishes. Bizzarely enough even though most devotees of christianty claim that free will prevents god from proving he exists as its faith based they then hold up the bible as irrefutable truth of his existence.

What is the bible? Probaby the best computer program you can get a person to learn and recite without question. Any attempt to engage in logical discussion results often in long passages being quoted in return.

I think thats sad because the bible however marvellous the believer thinks it is is just one small book in a universe where knowledge stretches out as far as the cosmos. Again, to anchor yourself to what is essentially a small collection of words seems at best bizzare.

I cannot believe in any god that wants us all to just learn and recite 2000 year old words that have no relevance to our own lives or our place in time. (genetics, space travel, cutting edge science.) how silly would that be! It's far more liley that IF such a god existed he would almost want to deliberately create such a story to see who could evolve and move forward from it and who couldn't see past it and stay routed in one place.

I've often tried to stimulate the minds of christians by suggesting that the bible and everything they know about religion is nothing but a springboard and a starting place for a bigger journey. A few have looked with at me with derision but a few have considered the thought with open possibility that gives me renewed hope in humanity.

marienbad

tommy2bad wrote: »

It's a fair question and deserves an answer.
You know I'll have a go According to Christian theology Adolf has as much chance of getting into heaven as anyone else. He was baptized and lived a good life, oh wait no he didn't. Well he has the option of repentance and for all we know may have in his last hours repented and sought forgiveness, I hope he did. And even if the rotten basterd didn't we should at least ask God to show mercy feel a little saddened for his destruction in the fiery lake.
Now the Jews. not baptized but chosen people who presumably led good lives and suffered through no fault of their own, no idea, best ask God for mercy and pray for their souls.
Hows that?

But the chosen people are the Old Testament Jews , are they not ? The New Testament made the Chosen People avenue obsolete so to speak.
Now they were in direct contact with Jesus and the Christian message but refused that invitation and so are consigned to Hell. Correct ?

Wh1stler

Is the Christian position that to reject Jesus as the son of God is to comdemn oneself to hell?

It seems odd that the fulfillment of a Jewish prophecy should result in eternal damnation for God's 'peculiar favorites'.

tommy2bad

marienbad wrote: »

But the chosen people are the Old Testament Jews , are they not ? The New Testament made the Chosen People avenue obsolete so to speak.
Now they were in direct contact with Jesus and the Christian message but refused that invitation and so are consigned to Hell. Correct ?

Not correct, no one is consigned to hell.
Start from the point of view of God, He wants man to live with him, man FUBARS, God fixes. What happens now?
The idea that God done a botch job of fixing it or that man broke it so it couldn't be fixed and a kind of back door was patched on is nonsense.
We as Christians have a true method of getting to heaven, whatever that is, everyone else must be able to gain the same but we don't know the how that works so we can only say ' this' not 'that' Any one who claims that they have the only way are either Jesus back for the apocalypse or wrong.
Christians say they have the way that Jesus taught them and know it to be true.

marienbad

tommy2bad wrote: »

Not correct, no one is consigned to hell.
Start from the point of view of God, He wants man to live with him, man FUBARS, God fixes. What happens now?
The idea that God done a botch job of fixing it or that man broke it so it couldn't be fixed and a kind of back door was patched on is nonsense.
We as Christians have a true method of getting to heaven, whatever that is, everyone else must be able to gain the same but we don't know the how that works so we can only say ' this' not 'that' Any one who claims that they have the only way are either Jesus back for the apocalypse or wrong.
Christians say they have the way that Jesus taught them and know it to be true.

But is the Christian way the only way ?

tommy2bad

marienbad wrote: »

But is the Christian way the only way ?

Might be, might not. All we know is that it a sure way.
Look I'm a believer, a bit heterodox but who isn't nowadays, all I know is the basic message Jesus gave was (I'm paraphrasing) Cop on and get on with each other. He came with a mission, didn't do much preaching and changer the world.
We trust in God to save us and we have to trust that He wont turn away anyone who lives in His way just because their form wasn't stamped at all the correct places.
Anyway I don't even believe in the God as presented by some of the bible authors, the God who runs the whole way through the bible like the writing in a stick of rock on the other hand.....

marienbad

tommy2bad wrote: »

Might be, might not. All we know is that it a sure way.
Look I'm a believer, a bit heterodox but who isn't nowadays, all I know is the basic message Jesus gave was (I'm paraphrasing) Cop on and get on with each other. He came with a mission, didn't do much preaching and changer the world.
We trust in God to save us and we have to trust that He wont turn away anyone who lives in His way just because their form wasn't stamped at all the correct places.
Anyway I don't even believe in the God as presented by some of the bible authors, the God who runs the whole way through the bible like the writing in a stick of rock on the other hand.....

I don't think most Christans would agree with you- as far as I know they believe the Christian way is the only way and I venture to say if you don't accept that you are not really a Christian.

Again, as always , I am open to correction, what say you Fanny Craddock Philologos ?

tommy2bad

marienbad wrote: »

I don't think most Christans would agree with you- as far as I know they believe the Christian way is the only way and I venture to say if you don't accept that you are not really a Christian.

You know I get that a lot here!
Who know maybe I'm not? :eek:

dj357

tommy2bad wrote: »

Not correct, no one is consigned to hell.

Except for those who commit the sin mentioned in Matthew 12:31-32:

Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come

It is also commonly bandied about, at least by US Christians, that to personally deny Jesus in such a way that one would never repent that denial has earned unpardonable condemnation. Anyone who rejects the Christian doctrine and does so, even in part, due to the reprehensible morality expounded by Jesus would surely be in such a situation and is, therefore, consigned to hell.

And can I point out, related to this, that the doctrine of Vicarious Redemption through Ol' J.C. is one of the most broken moral lessons ever to see the light of day. One need only read a little of Christopher Hitchens to understand how truly reprehensible this doctrine is.

ISAW

Andrewf20 wrote: »

I was referring to the core of religon, i.e. the Bible in the case of Christianity.
...
Or that a Muslim considers the Koran as the word of God for the exact reasons you consider the bible to be the one true religon.

I think you are a bit misinformed.

1. Your interpretation of the Bible above is a fundamentalist one and is more suitred to the koran for reasons given earlier e.g. islam believed the Koran was dictated by god and corrections made to ensure the Kàoran was perfect.

2. the bible isnt a core it is only a book. It reflects part of a "core" for mainstream christianity ther is also the Magisterium , apostolic succession, and oral tradition,

One could say for example the anglicans move more to the Word Romans to the Body and Orthodox to the Spirit. And that is leaving out the emphasis of the centre of the church in terms of pôwer knowledge and numbers for 1000 years -Asia (who had the same but a smaller edited versin of the bible) and the African church.

Ive read your reply but I still dont feel satisfied that my question has been answered, why is belief so important. I ask again, name a moral or ethical act done by a believer that could not be done by a non believer?

the act of believing?

Thats a fair point, however the bible (Mark 16) says:

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved", implying that if you are not baptized you wont be saved. Elsewhere it implies you dont need baptism to be saved but this creates confusion as sentences conflict with others elsewhere.

In the sence of salvation through faith as distinct from faith and good works. The issue here is not that christians think good works by non christians or by christians are not necessary. the point is that they view pride as a sin and saying you dont need god and you can save yourself is pride and running away from god. that is why faith becomes essential.

an alcoholic who says "i am not an alcoholic and can cure myself of addiction to alcohol" is only fooling themselves. similarly for sin; If you reject god then you cant absolve yourself and declare you are with God or on gods side. You especially cant say it if you dont believe god exists.
thats the theology as i view it anyway.

Your comment ("rejection of God") suggests that these people who dont believe in God are completely immoral with no ethics, charity or compassion which may not be the case.

And christianity would agree with you on that. People can have some of the message and all people can be saved.

These can be people who help the poor, are good parents, ethical, law abiding citizens. They dont steal, or kill etc etc. I would also argue that a person who does a moral or charitable act without a hope of eternal reward (a non believer) is perhaps a more noble person than someone who does a charitable act mainly because they believe they will be rewarded in the next life. Surely some credit would be due here?

Yes and christian theology accepts exactly what you say here. There isnt an argument about that.

tommy2bad

dj357 wrote: »

1 Except for those who commit the sin mentioned in Matthew 12:31-32:



2 It is also commonly bandied about, at least by US Christians, that to personally deny Jesus in such a way that one would never repent that denial has earned unpardonable condemnation. Anyone who rejects the Christian doctrine and does so, even in part, due to the reprehensible morality expounded by Jesus would surely be in such a situation and is, therefore, consigned to hell.

3 And can I point out, related to this, that the doctrine of Vicarious Redemption through Ol' J.C. is one of the most broken moral lessons ever to see the light of day. One need only read a little of Christopher Hitchens to understand how truly reprehensible this doctrine is.

1 OK well people have the right to choose hell too, can't stop the wicked from going to Babylon.
2 Hyperbole is never helpful.
3 And vicarious redemption is not the only model that applies, more ways to choke a dog than shoving a pound of butter down his neck, as my mother was fond of saying.

lmaopml

marienbad wrote: »

But the chosen people are the Old Testament Jews , are they not ? The New Testament made the Chosen People avenue obsolete so to speak.
Now they were in direct contact with Jesus and the Christian message but refused that invitation and so are consigned to Hell. Correct ?

No, they still fall under the old Covenant and must follow that law if they don't accept Jesus. They are still God's chosen people, with a Covenant -

The Gospel is for everybody who has ears to hear it and understand. A Christian would understand that all the generations gone by everywhere for all time prior to the Gospel will be judged by the same judge, who judges the heart of a person perfectly, and ones 'works' are tested by fire by Christ who is God. So, nobody in fact comes to the father except through the son, past, present or future, Christian or not.

The Roman Catholic Church claims the fullness of faith is found in her, that she is in fact Christ's Church built on the rock, along with all the other rites that are in communion. It's a big statement - but it's there, nonetheless. She won't tell anybody they are saved though or indeed that they aren't unless they wilfully have chosen not to be.

Wh1stler

lmaopml wrote: »

No, they still fall under the old Covenant and must follow that law if they don't accept Jesus. They are still God's chosen people, with a Covenant -

And are consigned to hell because no man can keep the law of God.

i.e., Jews who reject Jesus must go to hell.

lmaopml wrote: »

The Gospel is for everybody who has ears to hear it and understand. A Christian would understand that all the generations gone by everywhere for all time prior to the Gospel will be judged by the same judge, who judges the heart of a person perfectly, and ones 'works' are tested by fire by Christ who is God. So, nobody in fact comes to the father except through the son, past, present or future, Christian or not.

But the son is the father is He not? And didn't Jesus Himself say that those who deny Him will be denied by Him? What could that mean?

lmaopml wrote: »

The Roman Catholic Church claims the fullness of faith is found in her, that she is in fact Christ's Church built on the rock, along with all the other rites that are in communion. It's a big statement - but it's there, nonetheless. She won't tell anybody they are saved though or indeed that they aren't unless they wilfully have chosen not to be.

And to deny that Jesus is the son of God means a trip to eternal damnation. Jews and Muslims are going to hell according to Jesus.

tommy2bad

Wh1stler wrote: »

And are consigned to hell because no man can keep the law of God.

i.e., Jews who reject Jesus must go to hell.



But the son is the father is He not? And didn't Jesus Himself say that those who deny Him will be denied by Him? What could that mean?



And to deny that Jesus is the son of God means a trip to eternal damnation. Jews and Muslims are going to hell according to Jesus.

It might have something to do with...I'll let Jesus tell you himself.
Matthew 25: 35-40 "‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 ‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 ‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 “The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’ "

We meet and reject Jesus everyday, think on that.

Fanny Cradock

marienbad wrote: »

Those that have never encountered Christianity have not been offered that opportunity.

Abraham and Moses never encountered Christianity, right? So what does Christianity say about them?

marienbad wrote: »

And as to why I post here ? are you seriously asking that question ? Why have a christian/atheist thread if atheists are not welcome ?

I'm sorry but you seem misunderstood me. I didn't say, nor did I suggest, that you should not post here. I also did not say, nor did I suggest, that atheists, by the simple fact that they reject the existence of God (lack belief in the existence of God or whatever), are unwelcome to post on a forum I visit occasionally.

As for the Hitler conundrum ? What is wrong with asking it ? Either I am wrong or not according to Christianity. If I am wrong show me and if i am not , then accept the consequence of your belief . If you don't know - say so - it is not a crime.

What are you suggesting the consequences of my belief are? That potentially Hitler could go to heaven and others that we think of as better individuals wont? If that is what you are saying then, yes, I accept that this is a possibility. I also think it unlikely that he was in any way repentant. But that is really besides my point. Is it not?

Again, the notion that God is interested in talking out the cosmic weighing scales to see if you are more good than bad is not something supported by classical theology. What Christianity teaches is that each and every one of us has already failed the standard and that is why we need salvation. Mary Poplin shares the content of a dream she had (and she says that this was more than a dream) that is very pertinent to what I've said above. (About 12 minutes in.) You don't have to believe a word of to understand what she is getting at.

Let me be clear. What I have never claimed is that I have special knowledge about either the deepest thoughts of individuals or the result of God's judgement - who is saved and who is lost. I'm not a mind reader (of either man or God) and I can't know the result of a judgement that hasn't yet happened. In fact, I readily admitted that I don't have access to such knowledge. So I am therefore unsure what your point is.

Wh1stler

So when Jesus said, 'no-one comes to my father but through me' He meant, 'no-one comes to my father but through me, except everyone who does'?

He went even further, even calling Jesus 'Lord!' (having faith) is not enough. 'The gate is narrow' and all that.

Also, according to Jesus' words, if you deny Him, He will deny you.

Where did the ambiguity of Jesus' words come from?

And when Jesus instructed that the gospel be taken to all nations, which nations were tacitly exempted?

According to the words of Jesus, if you don't recognise Him as God, or the son of God, then you go to hell.

tommy2bad

Wh1stler wrote: »

So when Jesus said, 'no-one comes to my father but through me' He meant, 'no-one comes to my father but through me, except everyone who does'?

He went even further, even calling Jesus 'Lord!' (having faith) is not enough. 'The gate is narrow' and all that.

Also, according to Jesus' words, if you deny Him, He will deny you.

Where did the ambiguity of Jesus' words come from?

And when Jesus instructed that the gospel be taken to all nations, which nations were tacitly exempted?

According to the words of Jesus, if you don't recognise Him as God, or the son of God, then you go to hell.

If thats how you want to read it, then you better get saved fast or your going to hell.:p
Whats your point? That Jesus was ambiguous in His explanation of salvation theology? That its too damn hard to get to heaven? That none of it makes sense in a nice simple easy to understand way?
How about this;Galatians 5:14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
This stuff isn't hard to grasp, just to put into practice.
Tacitly excluded??? I give up. Whats the answer?

Zombrex

ISAW wrote: »

You dont seem to understand.
Read it again.
the christian would say " that cannot be God" the Muslim would say "it is gods will"

This forum (repeatably) demonstrates that ain't the case. You do not say that cannot be God, if you did you would be an atheist by now. Instead you either find convoluted and illogical reasons why it still is God, or simply throw your hands up and say you don't know why but it is.

Christian faith is no more reason based than Muslim faith. Simply declaring that your god is follows reason and theirs doesn't is pointless posturing.

ISAW wrote: »

that is handwaving! WHAT is illogical or against reason in Christian theology?

Where to start. Oh yes, how about the thing we were just discussing, the conflict between the idea that God does not wish us to suffer yet created us to suffer if he was not present, something he knew would affect a great deal of humans.

Therefore the statement "God does not wish us to suffer" and "God is omnipotent and created humans" cannot both be true while retaining reason. As far as I can see, and so far you have provide nothing to demonstrate otherwise.

ISAW wrote: »

you keep trying to assert that. Noone except you claimed Christian theology says it.

I think many a Christian theologist has claimed God created humans.

ISAW wrote: »

that is unfair. PDN admitted he didnt have the answer to all the unknowns. It was not a case of "it is allahs will"

That is exactly what it is. Unless PDN became an atheist after our discussion, which I doubt.

ISAW wrote: »

that is nonsense. the same logic and reason is used by mathematics and science .

You are not claiming that Christian theology is based on reason (its not but that is a different matter), you are claiming God himself is reasonable. You have nothing to support that other than your own assertion, which is in itself circular since you simply define reason not as we judge it but by what God decided anyway.


It is the Logos of the greeks. If yu think it is absent in christian theology you are willfully ignorant.[/QUOTE]

Wh1stler

tommy2bad wrote: »

It might have something to do with...I'll let Jesus tell you himself.
Matthew 25: 35-40 "‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 ‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 ‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 “The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’ "

We meet and reject Jesus everyday, think on that.

You should have let Jesus finish. He goes on to say:

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him,URL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2025&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-24053d"][COLOR=#0000ff]d[/COLOR][/URL saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

So almost everyone is going to hell since almost everyone will be on the left hand.

Faith in Jesus is not enough but according to Jesus it is absolutely necessary for salvation.

Wh1stler

tommy2bad wrote: »

If thats how you want to read it, then you better get saved fast or your going to hell.:p
Whats your point? That Jesus was ambiguous in His explanation of salvation theology? That its too damn hard to get to heaven? That none of it makes sense in a nice simple easy to understand way?
How about this;Galatians 5:14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
This stuff isn't hard to grasp, just to put into practice.
Tacitly excluded??? I give up. Whats the answer?

I see, Paul should be heard over Jesus.

Abraham and Mary must feel awfully lonely.