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Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Please Read OP)

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    #9212
    Benny_Cake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    Mod: Off-topic posts removed. Bigotry of any form is not acceptable in this forum - bear that in mind.


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    #9213
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    marienbad wrote: »
    So it was just hearsay then and not direct testimony ?

    Festus, can I have a reply please ?


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    #9214
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,765 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Festus wrote: »
    Back at you and less of the bad language.

    http://blog.eternalvigilance.me/2013/03/russells-teapot-really-refutes-atheism-not-theism/

    There's a certain irony in a creationist arguing against evolution while using Russells teapot as part of their argument.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #9215
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    orubiru wrote: »
    Wait now, if I arrive in the next life with my memories of the horrors inflicted in this life intact, wont I be tormented by those memories?

    If my memories in the next life are either erased or not relevant when I get there then, without my memories of me, then what am I? A blank slate? Just one in a vast array of identical, memory-less, Heaven Dwellers?

    You seem to have forgotten that what we do in this life defines us. If my definitions become "unimportant" at the point of death then how can it be "me" who arrives at the next life?

    You are correct. It is what we do or do not do in this life that defines us. Your memories will be intact
    orubiru wrote: »
    On Satan, if he is responsible for the horrors of this world then is it not "right" that humanity should take a stand, refuse to reproduce, and die off? We'd pass on into Heaven, together, forever, and leave Satan here alone?

    One wonders if true Evil would create life just so It had something to terrorise...

    Everyone is responsible for their own actions. You cannot blame Satan if you follow him and give in to his temptations.

    Evil cannot create anything. All it can do is destroy.


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    #9216
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    SW wrote: »
    There's a certain irony in a creationist arguing against evolution while using Russells teapot as part of their argument.

    Not if the pot fits


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    #9217
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    That is simply false. My definition fits the context perfectly and it is a part of the definition you simply contrive to leave out of your supposed etymology. As such your etymology is far too limited and wildly inaccurate because of this. Your asserting that your definition of anything in the light of this carries no weight.
    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    a- => Without
    -theos- => God
    -ism => Belief.

    Without god belief. No god belief.

    In that case you are saying that atheism is a belief, a faith based position. I am inclined to agree.


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    #9218
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,765 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Festus wrote: »
    Not if the pot fits
    How so? The creationist is suggesting that Russells Teapot makes accepting creationism more logical than evolution. That's the complete opposite of what the Teapot is about, i.e. accepting/believing sans-evidence.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #9219
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Festus wrote: »
    In that case you are saying that atheism is a belief, a faith based position. I am inclined to agree.

    Do children who've never been told anything about God have faith in anything? My children have never heard of God or that anyone believes or doesn't believe in him, her or it. What faith do they have?


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    #9220
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    marienbad wrote: »
    Festus, can I have a reply please ?

    Direct testimony.


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    #9221
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    lazygal wrote: »
    Do children who've never been told anything about God have faith in anything? My children have never heard of God or that anyone believes or doesn't believe in him, her or it. What faith do they have?

    To be honest I have no knowledge of your children or what you have indoctrinated them with so for a general answer do you mind if I direct you towards Dr Barrett?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/3512686/Children-are-born-believers-in-God-academic-claims.html


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    #9222
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    SW wrote: »
    How so? The creationist is suggesting that Russells Teapot makes accepting creationism more logical than evolution. That's the complete opposite of what the Teapot is about, i.e. accepting/believing sans-evidence.

    Can't really comment as I have no belief in flying teapots other that those that might have been thrown overboard by various space travellers.


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    #9223
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Festus wrote: »
    To be honest I have no knowledge of your children or what you have indoctrinated them with so for a general answer do you mind if I direct you towards Dr Barrett?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/3512686/Children-are-born-believers-in-God-academic-claims.html

    They have never heard of God, or Jesus, or any of the mystical claims of the bible. What do they have faith in? What is their faith system? Have you indoctrinated your children in your faith? Suppose they didn't believe you, what would you say to convince them otherwise?


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    #9224
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,765 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Festus wrote: »
    Can't really comment as I have no belief in flying teapots other that those that might have been thrown overboard by various space travellers.
    bit of a strange response in that you can't comment on something that is related to a link you posted:confused:

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #9225
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    I do not need to look up a definition of god for you. You either have one of your own, or you do not. Which is it?

    I don't want you to do it for me, I want you to do it for yourself.
    Either you are interested in finding God or you are not. If the latter, which I suspect, then I must conclude that you have no interest in the existence of God and your interest is only in dismantling the faith of others, much like the rest of your cohort.

    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    Do you have a definition of god? What part of my definition does not fit Catholicism? Do you have any substantiation that the entity you define actually exists?

    My understanding of substantiation is that it concerns the material. If you have a Christian definition of God you should see why such persistent requests are a fools errand.


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    #9226
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Festus wrote: »
    I don't want you to do it for me, I want you to do it for yourself.
    Either you are interested in finding God or you are not. If the latter, which I suspect, then I must conclude that you have no interest in the existence of God and your interest is only in dismantling the faith of others, much like the rest of your cohort.




    My understanding of substantiation is that it concerns the material. If you have a definition of God you should see why such a request is a fools errand.
    Is your faith and that of others on shakey foundations?


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    #9227
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    lazygal wrote: »
    Is your faith and that of others on shakey foundations?

    Not at all.

    Atheism is though. It is founded on nothing at all.


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    #9228
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Festus wrote: »
    Not at all.

    Atheism is though. It is founded on nothing at all.
    Why are you concerned about faith being dismantled if its so strong? Surely God would show himself occasionally if he wants us to think he's amazing? How come he never shows up, ever?


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    #9229
    Harika
    Registered Users Posts: 4,440 ✭✭✭Harika


    lazygal wrote: »
    Why are you concerned about faith being dismantled if its so strong? Surely God would show himself occasionally if he wants us to think he's amazing? How come he never shows up, ever?

    Today I woke up late because I missed the alarm, that was Satan, but as the traffic was flowing nicely I made it in time to work, that was God. What further proof is needed? :rolleyes:


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    #9230
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Festus wrote: »
    Direct testimony.

    Afraid not- heresay definition-

    Evidence that is offered by a witness of which they do not have direct knowledge but, rather, their testimony is based on what others have said to them.

    So no direct testimony then ?


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    #9231
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    marienbad wrote: »
    Afraid not- heresay definition-

    Evidence that is offered by a witness of which they do not have direct knowledge but, rather, their testimony is based on what others have said to them.

    So no direct testimony then ?

    Two of the Apostles wrote Gospels as eye witnesses. Direct testimony.


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    #9232
    Harika
    Registered Users Posts: 4,440 ✭✭✭Harika


    Festus wrote: »
    Two of the Apostles wrote Gospels as eye witnesses. Direct testimony.

    When did they write it down?


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    #9233
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,340 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Festus wrote: »
    In that case you are saying that atheism is a belief, a faith based position. I am inclined to agree.

    More of your words going into my mouth which I never actually anywhere said.
    Festus wrote: »
    I don't want you to do it for me, I want you to do it for yourself.

    Still refusing to back up anything you say then.
    Festus wrote: »
    Either you are interested in finding

    I am interested in discussing the thread topic, and I am interested in hearing what arguments, evidence, data or reasoning you have to substantiate the existence of a god.... or whatever god it is you believe in but are refusing to define.
    Festus wrote: »
    My understanding of substantiation is that it concerns the material. If you have a Christian definition of God you should see why such persistent requests are a fools errand.

    Still refusing to say what is wrong with my definition that I offered. Does it not match the mono-theistic god? What issue have you with that definition? What is your own?


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    #9234
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    lazygal wrote: »
    Why are you concerned about faith being dismantled if its so strong? Surely God would show himself occasionally if he wants us to think he's amazing? How come he never shows up, ever?

    I'm not concerned. Nothing that has been said or posted here is capable of shaking my faith.

    What is fun is watching atheists do what atheists do.

    and God did show up, as Jesus Christ.


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    #9235
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Festus wrote: »
    I'm not concerned. Nothing that has been said or posted here is capable of shaking my faith.

    What is fun is watching atheists do what atheists do.

    and God did show up, as Jesus Christ.

    Why didn't he just show up as himself? Why the need for the complications?
    What do atheists do, exactly?


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    #9236
    Buona Fortuna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,507 ✭✭✭Buona Fortuna


    Festus wrote: »
    Two of the Apostles wrote Gospels as eye witnesses. Direct testimony.

    Was going to stay out of this thread but :(

    We don't have their hand written manuscript do we?

    We have the editted version of a translation, written by persons unknown.


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    #9237
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    Buona Fortuna wrote: »
    Was going to stay out of this thread but :(

    We don't have their hand written manuscript do we?

    We have the editted version of a translation, written by persons unknown.

    Do you have citations from a reputable Bible scholar to support this or are you merely presenting this as your opinion?


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    #9238
    Thisname
    Registered Users Posts: 57 ✭✭Thisname


    You've got to ask, why on earth would the writers of the New Testament make up their accounts of Jesus? Think about it..putting their lives on the line, suffering immense persecution, some to the point of martyrdom...sounds like a great idea!


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    #9239
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    Thisname wrote: »
    You've got to ask, why on earth would the writers of the New Testament make up their accounts of Jesus? Think about it..putting their lives on the line, suffering immense persecution, some to the point of martyrdom...sounds like a great idea!

    It's a good question. I think they would make up the accounts because people have been making up stories since we were able to communicate with each other.

    The accounts of Jesus' life are very similar to accounts of the lives of many other deities and legendary characters.

    It's human nature to make up tales. Have you ever been to a bookstore or library? We absolutely LOVE to make up stories. I see passionate conversations about Star Wars etc online all the time.

    The only reason that The Bible has to be "true" is that people use that "truth" to take, and wield, power.

    If you can convince someone that Jesus was real and they must behave a certain way or else then you have power over them.

    The writers of the New Testament put their lives on the line because they felt that the reward was worth the risk. Or they were delusional.

    They could have been delusional, you know. It's not impossible.


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    #9240
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    Festus wrote: »
    I'm not concerned. Nothing that has been said or posted here is capable of shaking my faith.

    What is fun is watching atheists do what atheists do.

    and God did show up, as Jesus Christ.

    It there anything at all that could shake your faith?

    I believed in the Christian God once but then I learned about other Gods and they appealed to me more so I felt a better connection to them.

    Do you think that something similar could ever happen to you?


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    #9241
    Thisname
    Registered Users Posts: 57 ✭✭Thisname


    Highly unlikely that a group of people, would be experiencing the same delusion about Jesus. And then go on to dedicate their lives to spreading the gospel, being persecuted and killed in the process (you can hardly compare that to some of your examples like Star Wars fans etc). The apostle Paul was converted on the road to Damascus. Prior to that he was zealously persecuting Christians for their faith. He had never met with the disciples, in fact if he has he would have killed them prior to his conversion.


This discussion has been closed.
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