Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Please Read OP)

ISAW

Morbert wrote: »

So there is no difference between

"But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

and

"But all the children, keep alive for yourselves."

?

Basically The secons is the same as the first.
It is saying keep the female children asindentured servancs
i.e. dont kill them

It is not saying "rape them"

You are asserting "for yourselves" = "rape"
On what evidence is that based?

PDN

nickcave wrote: »

Well in terms of 'keeping holy the Sabbath' Christians do have a reason to observe the Sabbath. As far as I know, there's no canonical workaround for this: Christians still observe the fourth commandment as outlined in Exodus. Do you not?

No, I don't. I'm a Christian - not a Jew. Therefore I read and understand the Old Testament in the light of the New Testament.

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17)

This clearly states that Sabbaths, just like Jewish dietary laws and Jewish festivals, were fulfilled in Christ and are no longer obligatory for Christians.

I don't know what you mean by conspiracy theory, but please - this is hardly the place for sarcasm.

I'm not being sarcastic.

nickcave

That's a quite obscure (and ambiguous) piece of scripture you've quoted and one which is hugely outweighed by the emphasis Christian advocates put on the commandments, including the fourth.

PDN

nickcave wrote: »

That's a quite obscure piece of scripture you've quoted and one which is hugely outweighed by the emphasis Christian advocates put on the commandments, including the fourth.

Colossians - a New Testament Epistle has just become obscure?

LMAO

Btw - I am a Christian advocate.

Fanny Cradock

Rather than argue the point further it might be best to consider the possibility that you are incorrect, nickcave. Arguing that Colossians is an obscure bit of scripture to a Christian wont get you far. Have you read it, btw?

marienbad

ISAW wrote: »

Basically The secons is the same as the first.
It is saying keep the female children asindentured servancs
i.e. dont kill them

It is not saying "rape them"

You are asserting "for yourselves" = "rape"
On what evidence is that based?

But why only the female children , and only those that have not slept with a man ?

PDN

marienbad wrote: »

But why only the female children , and only those that have not slept with a man ?

Killing all the male children would mean the end of the nation of the Midian. Patriarchal lineages and all that.

As to why only virgin females were to be allowed to live, this was already explained back in Post number 742:

PDN wrote:

First of, women who were not virgins were perfectly acceptable as wives - remember Rahab the harlot from Jericho? Or the widows in Deuteronomy who were given time to mourn for their husbands?

The reason why the Midianites were judged so harshly was because they had used their women to entice the Israelites at Peor into sexually immorality (a sin for which God had already judged the Israelite men). Moses gave these instructions (about virgins) so that none of the women involved in that mass strategic seduction would live. The only women who survived were virgins who, by definition, were not involved in that incident.

nickcave

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Rather than argue the point further it might be best to consider the possibility that you are incorrect, nickcave. Arguing that Colossians is an obscure bit of scripture to a Christian wont get you far. Have you read it, btw?

Also @PDN

I like to consider that I may be incorrect - I'm a skeptic. So if Colossians is a popular piece among Christians then I've learned something and I apologise for the error. No I haven't read it. Hadn't even heard of it until now, but I have heard of the ten commandments as all Christians have. This does speak, however, to the point on canonical teaching - I still feel that the observing of the Sabbath is more often affirmed in Christian teaching than it is denied.

PDN

nickcave wrote: »

Also @PDN

I like to consider that I may be incorrect - I'm a skeptic. So if Colossians is a popular piece among Christians then I've learned something and I apologise for the error. No I haven't read it. Hadn't even heard of it until now, but I have heard of the ten commandments as all Christians have. This does speak, however, to the point on canonical teaching - I still feel that the observing of the Sabbath is more often affirmed in Christian teaching than it is denied.

As a Christian, I am of course happy to talk about my beliefs. And I am happy to talk about Church history. But I can't really comment on your subjective opinions as a non-Christian (and the first person I've ever encountered, outside of China or the Middle East, who has never heard of Colossians) on what you think most Christians believe or affirm.

Worztron

Was God created from nothing?
Where did God come from?
Or was God always present?
Why did God create trillions of planets and put us on just 1? That makes no sense whatsoever.

BTW, I'd consider myself an agnostic.

The Quadratic Equation

Worztron wrote: »

Why did God create trillions of planets and put us on just 1? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Why ? Maybe there are trillions of other Universes and dimensions. What size is God ? What size is infinity ?
I would believe that God is a spirit. The uncaused cause. "He" always existed.
Energy cannot be created or destroyed. It can only change form.

marienbad

PDN wrote: »

Killing all the male children would mean the end of the nation of the Midian. Patriarchal lineages and all that.

As to why only virgin females were to be allowed to live, this was already explained back in Post number 742:

Well , if you are happy with that interpretation good luck to you , but I put it to you that if you read those exact sentences in any other source, Homer, Virgil, The 1001 Nights,Gilgamesh that is not what you would take from it.

It is curious that you have no problem with genocide, the destruction of cities, the enslavement of whole tribes , the targeting of specific indviduals, yet you all baulk at rape ?

What made Israelite armies any different to any and all armies before or since ?

PDN

Worztron wrote: »

Was God created from nothing?
Where did God come from?
Or was God always present?
Why did God create trillions of planets and put us on just 1? That makes no sense whatsoever.

BTW, I'd consider myself an agnostic.

So, from your extensive knowledge of what makes sense to an omnipotent and opmniscient deity, what number of inhabited planets would make sense? :rolleyes:

Worztron

PDN wrote: »

So, from your extensive knowledge of what makes sense to an omnipotent and opmniscient deity, what number of inhabited planets would make sense? :rolleyes:

I presume you meant omniscient.
Well Mr sarcastic, I mean why all the spare planets?
Why not answer my other questions?

PDN

marienbad wrote: »

Well , if you are happy with that interpretation good luck to you ,

It makes sense if you read the passage in context rather than making it mean what you want it to mean - something the atheists in this thread are showing a particular talent for

but I put it to you that if you read those exact sentences in any other source, Homer, Virgil, The 1001 Nights,Gilgamesh that is not what you would take from it.?

I'm afraid my imagination isn't sufficiently stretchable to start imagining words into ancient texts that don't actually appear there. I'll leave that to you, since you seem to have more experience than me in that field.

It is curious that you have no problem with genocide, the destruction of cities, the enslavement of whole tribes , the targeting of specific indviduals, yet you all baulk at rape ?

I'm going to be charitable here and assume you just haven't bothered reading what I've previously posted in this thread, rather than that you would deliberately tell untruths about me.

I've already stated, on several occasions, that I find the violence in the OT to be extremely troubling.

The reason why we baulk at rape is because there is no evidence for it. This might be a novel concept to some, but it is possible to arrive at a conclusion about interpretation of a text because you the evidence points that way.

Again, I would point out that Christians have a vested interest in reaching as an objective understanding of Scripture as possible. If we genuinely believe it to be God's word (as I do) then it would be foolish in the extreme to try to reach conclusions or interpretations that we do not honestly hold.

The atheists in this thread, however, have no such incentive to truly reach an objective understanding of Scripture. And that IMHO is why they continue to go through hermeneutical gymnastics and contortions to try to force the Bible to say something that it doesn't, but which they think will portray Christianity in the worst possible light.

PDN

Worztron wrote: »

I presume you meant omniscient.

In this forum (as indeed in most others on boards.ie) trying to be smart about typos isn't really very clever.

Yeah, I've got fat fingers and hit a wrong key occasionally. Shocking and disgusting isn't it?

Well Mr sarcastic, I mean why all the spare planets?

Why not? I don't think God needs to justify His actions in a way that every finite human can understand. Maybe He thinks they look nice.

Why not answer my other questions?

Because the same-old same-old does get rather boring.

Christians believe that God is eternal. So he wasn't created from anything. He didn't come from anything. He has always existed.

Worztron

PDN wrote: »

In this forum (as indeed in most others on boards.ie) trying to be smart about typos isn't really very clever.

Yeah, I've got fat fingers and hit a wrong key occasionally. Shocking and disgusting isn't it?


Why not? I don't think God needs to justify His actions in a way that every finite human can understand. Maybe He thinks they look nice.


Because the same-old same-old does get rather boring.

Christians believe that God is eternal. So he wasn't created from anything. He didn't come from anything. He has always existed.

Being sarcastic isn't clever either.
You avoided answering my other questions like some waffling politician.

PDN

Worztron wrote: »

Being sarcastic isn't clever either.

In your opinion.

You avoided answering my other questions like some waffling politician.

I answered your questions.

You asked if God was created from nothing.
I answered, "He wasn't created from anything".

You asked where God came from.
I answered, "He didn't come from anything".

You asked if God was always present.
I answered, "He has always existed".

Sorry if that sounds too much like Family Fortunes, but in my book that is three straight answers to three straight questions.

Now, if you want some genuine discussion between Christians and atheists/agnostics then there's a welcome mat for you in this forum.

Worztron

What happened to all the people that died before Jesus was born? Where did they go?

PDN

Worztron wrote: »

What happened to all the people that died before Jesus was born? Where did they go?

We know that Jews who were trusting in the promise of the coming Messiah went to Paradise. We are also told that some wicked people went to hell.

We don't actually know about most others, because the Bible doesn't actually tell us. Christians believe that the Bible tells us everything we need to know in order to be saved and to live as His disciples - not everything that we might be curious about.

Worztron

The Feeding of the 5000 – how is it possible to feed so many with five loaves and two fish?

PDN

Worztron wrote: »

The Feeding of the 5000 – how is it possible to feed so many with five loaves and two fish?

To an omnipotent God - I don't think what we see as possible or impossible amounts to very much.

Worztron

Children are dying of starvation every few seconds in the world. Why would a God allow this?

The Quadratic Equation

Worztron wrote: »

What happened to all the people that died before Jesus was born? Where did they go?

One belief is that those who were fit for heaven were possibly in a state of limbo, and were released from same by Jesus after he died, and before he rose from the dead on the third day. They could then enter the kingdom of heaven.

From the apostles creed :

"he was crucified died and was buried, he decended to the dead/hell, and on the third day he rose again"

The Quadratic Equation

Worztron wrote: »

Children are dying of starvation every few seconds in the world. Why would a God allow this?

You mean why no heaven on earth ? What would be the point of that ?
Their suffering is caused by the greed of man, not God.
The earth has enough resources for everyone.

PDN

Worztron wrote: »

Children are dying of starvation every few seconds in the world. Why would a God allow this?

Because free will has consequences. None of us want to be pre-programmed robots. Why? Because free will is important.

Sadly people make poor choices, and often that causes horrendous suffering to others.

However, if you're really interested in helping starving children, I work with a number of charities that are always looking for volunteers or donations. Feel free to PM me and I'll send you details of how you can help.

Better to light a candle than to curse the darkness etc.

Worztron

World hunger will only be solved by a complete change to our rotten capitalist 'society'.

The Catholic church has loads of property and should sell a lot of it and give the money to the poor. (They should practice what they preach)

The ironic thing is this. Jesus lived very modestly - this is in stark comparison to the grandeur and luxory that bishops and other church big-wigs of many religions live in.

PDN

Worztron wrote: »

World hunger will only be solved by a complete change to our rotten capitalist 'society'.

Please take that to the Politics Forum. They will be glad to discuss how various workers' paradises have eradicated world hunger by changing capitalist society. But this forum exists for the discussion of Christian issues.

The Catholic church has loads of property and should sell a lot of it and give the money to the poor. (They should practice what they preach)

I'm not a Catholic - but in my travels in the developing world I've discovered that their Church actually does quite a lot for the poor.

The ironic thing is this. Jesus lived very modestly - this is in stark comparison to the grandeur and luxory that bishops and other church big-wigs of many religions live in.

Indeed. It would almost be enough to make you follow a religion where people sold everything they had and went off to help the poor - wouldn't it?

Worztron

There is tangible evidence that dinosaurs existed millions of years ago but not a shred of hard evidence that Jesus existed 2000 years ago. The bible is mere hearsay.

Hey PDN. How old do you think the planet is? 6000 years old? :rolleyes:

PDN

Worztron wrote: »

There is tangible evidence that dinosaurs existed millions of years ago but not a shred of hard evidence that Jesus existed 2000 years ago. The bible is mere hearsay.

Well, most historians think Jesus did exist - but I respect your right to take a faith position that He didn't.

Did I say anything about dinosaurs?

Hey PDN. How old do you think the planet is? 6000 years old?

I would have thought about 4.5 billion years, But if you really want to believe it's 6000 years, then you can do so.

Here's a wee idea. Maybe you should try reading up some of the threads already in the forum, and acquainting yourself with the range of different views and opinions held by Christians, because at the moment your soapboxing and tired old stereotypes are really coming across as trolling.