Pushing ones views

Mistress 69

kiffer wrote: »

ok... .

Back to the topic of pushing ones views...
When I was in primary school the teacher lead the class in prayer at the several points in the day, I'm pretty sure it was at least 3 times... Anyway.

Lets say there is a teacher in a school, she doesn't believe in God and arranges the day in such a way as that story time happens just before or after payer.
The teacher then goes on to tell Just So Stories, FairyTales and the other sorts of stories that we all understand or come to understand to be allagories. All in the hopes that it'll sink in, the kids will link prayer to untrue but useful stories and they will realise that the whole religion thing should be taken with a grain of salt. Now I'm not saying it would work...
but would it count as Pushing One's Views?

Yes, as the taecher is deliberately trying to influence the kids to her way of thinking. Now I am sure you will say that prayer time in school is exactly the same, so I will say that in a previous post i stated that if you attend a school with a certain ethos, you expect it to be put forward.

The original title of the thread was related to a very specific point, and I think we all know the thread is just going on and on and around in ever decreasing circles... till eventually...:pac:

Mistress 69

Ghost Buster wrote: »

If babies arent atheists because they have no concept of atheism then as they have no concept of humanity or being human are they actually something else?

When Mrs Ghost Buster pops in November i want a puppy!!!!!

or a wee baby monkey


.......hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.. Monkeys

Dare I say it...... Congrats to you and Mrs Ghostbuster.

Mistress 69

eoin5 wrote: »

You don't have to have heard about something in order to not believe in it.

Did you believe that there are walking rainbows on Jupiter before I started this sentence?

No, I always knew they walked around Saturn and Uranus...:pac:

kiffer

Mistress 69 wrote: »

Yes, as the taecher is deliberately trying to influence the kids to her way of thinking. Now I am sure you will say that prayer time in school is exactly the same, so I will say that in a previous post i stated that if you attend a school with a certain ethos, you expect it to be put forward.

... should state run schools have a catholic ethos?
We say no, it's unfair to non-believers and people of different beliefs.
You say ahhh sure the cross has been on the walls of Irish school rooms for ages, most people are catholic anyway.

Most people that report to be catholics couldn't give a rats arse if the children prayed or if a cross was up in the room or not.

It comes down to a vocal minority on both sides.

How do you feel about putting up the symbols of other religions in a class room? Say if one of the children's parents were Hindus (rare enough in Ireland I admit) and wanted there to be a small statue of Vishnu beside the cross? In a state funded school?
"Oh but the majority are Catholic, the school has an ethos, they should send their kids to a different school or just give them notes excusing them from prayer/random visits from the parish priest"

The original title of the thread was related to a very specific point, and I think we all know the thread is just going on and on and around in ever decreasing circles... till eventually...:pac:

untill pacman?
Or untill someone gets to the power pill and eats all the ghosts?
But they come back...

Mistress 69

kiffer wrote: »

... should state run schools have a catholic ethos?
We say no, it's unfair to non-believers and people of different beliefs.
You say ahhh sure the cross has been on the walls of Irish school rooms for ages, most people are catholic anyway.

Most people that report to be catholics couldn't give a rats arse if the children prayed or if a cross was up in the room or not.

It comes down to a vocal minority on both sides.

How do you feel about putting up the symbols of other religions in a class room? Say if one of the children's parents were Hindus (rare enough in Ireland I admit) and wanted there to be a small statue of Vishnu beside the cross? In a state funded school?
"Oh but the majority are Catholic, the school has an ethos, they should send their kids to a different school or just give them notes excusing them from prayer/random visits from the parish priest"



untill pacman?
Or untill someone gets to the power pill and eats all the ghosts?
But they come back...

Kiffer

In no way am I brushing aside any points you raised.

All seriously valid points. When I started this thread it was more a case of Atheist Ireland trying to take away something that has been here for generations. (Personally I am not the most religous in the world). Agreed, there are oceans of Catholics who could not give a rats ass....Untill somebody starts ripping things off the wall, especially if a highly organised group have pushed it through the courts. From a happy go lucky point of view, I have only very recently woken up to the very existance of AI. A very sobering thought. Could one call them a collective of individuals, a lobby group or political activists or even... Heaven forbid.. a religon...whatever! they are PUSHING THEIR VIEWS.


Kiffer....As for Vishnu, I have all albums by John Coltrane and most of Alice Coltranes

I am totally aware that Boards.ie are not affiliated to any other organisations.

optogirl

Mistress 69 wrote: »

Kiffer
When I started this thread it was more a case of Atheist Ireland trying to take away something that has been here for generations.

TB/No train in Donegal/ unequal pay for women/ gay marginalisation have also been around for generations but it doesn't mean we should hold onto them

Untill somebody starts ripping things off the wall,

Ludicrous!

Ghost Buster

Whoops. Summit weird happened this post.
Take 2..

Ghost Buster

Mistress 69 wrote: »

Kiffer

In no way am I brushing aside any points you raised.

All seriously valid points. When I started this thread it was more a case of Atheist Ireland trying to take away something that has been here for generations. (Personally I am not the most religous in the world). Agreed, there are oceans of Catholics who could not give a rats ass....Untill somebody starts ripping things off the wall, especially if a highly organised group have pushed it through the courts. From a happy go lucky point of view, I have only very recently woken up to the very existance of AI. A very sobering thought. Could one call them a collective of individuals, a lobby group or political activists or even... Heaven forbid.. a religon...whatever! they are STATING THEIR VIEWS.


Kiffer....As for Vishnu, I have all albums by John Coltrane and most of Alice Coltranes

I am totally aware that Boards.ie are not affiliated to any other organisations.

FYP

mikhail

Mistress 69 wrote: »

When I started this thread it was more a case of Atheist Ireland trying to take away something that has been here for generations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeMehLHyGZU&t=3m22s

Mistress 69

mikhail wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeMehLHyGZU&t=3m22s

Ha Ha! Keith Richards once had a dog by that name.

Mistress 69

Ghost Buster wrote: »

FYP

STATING

I think it was more than that when the crucifix in schools issue was take to the European Court by a little Mummy from Romania living in Italy. I am sure she was Pushed and Backed all the way by relevant interest groups.

Ghost Buster

Mistress 69 wrote: »

STATING

I think it was more than that when the crucifix in schools issue was take to the European Court by a little Mummy from Romania living in Italy. I am sure she was Pushed and Backed all the way by relevant interest groups.

And you have reason to believe that the little Mummy from Romania and those who backed her are members of Atheist Ireland?

pH

Mistress 69 wrote: »

STATING

I think it was more than that when the crucifix in schools issue was take to the European Court by a little Mummy from Romania living in Italy. I am sure she was Pushed and Backed all the way by relevant interest groups.

Finish actually, and I guess all you need to be 'sure' about something is your own internal gut feel, but have you seen any evidence she was pushed or backed by anyone? or are you just sure she was?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lautsi_v._Italy

Just to sum up your thinking on this issue ...

Insisting on crucifixes in classrooms, even, as in Italy having laws in place mandating that you have a crucifix in every classroom, isn't pushing ones views.

Asking for them to be removed is?

Knasher

Considering this and your previous thread on removing the angules from RTE were both objections to secular campaigns (as opposed to atheist ones; like getting people to read the bible), I have to ask; are you against secularism in general or is there something about these two campaigns that you feel go too far?

Apologies if this has already been asked, this is quite a long thread at this stage and I haven't been following it along.

Mistress 69

Ghost Buster wrote: »

And you have reason to believe that the little Mummy from Romania and those who backed her are members of Atheist Ireland?

Not by Atheist Ireland, and I stand corrected, she is from Finland and living in Italy.

Mounting legal challanges of that nature costs a lot, but maybe she is wealthy and had no external help. Doubt it though!

Mistress 69

Knasher wrote: »

Considering this and your previous thread on removing the angules from RTE were both objections to secular campaigns (as opposed to atheist ones; like getting people to read the bible), I have to ask; are you against secularism in general or is there something about these two campaigns that you feel go too far?

Apologies if this has already been asked, this is quite a long thread at this stage and I haven't been following it along.

Both campaigns are of an atheist agenda using a secular argument as justification. These two issues are stated objectives on The AI website.
Going too far, frankly speaking..yes. I do not know how long ai as a highly organised group has been in existance but they sure fire off the exocets at things many people in Ireland have taken for granted. I and many people like me would see this as the thin edge of the wedge. Without going into specifics there have been attempts to remove statues of a religous nature from hospitals, the Angelus, the Crucifix from schools. Probably more I dont know about yet.
Where will it end. The muffling of church bells in case it offends atheist ears. As Donatello said on a recent Qou Vadis thread re Killarney general hospital. Why should we throw away our heritage on a whim... and I will add just to suit Atheist Ireland !

Mistress 69

pH wrote: »

Finish actually, and I guess all you need to be 'sure' about something is your own internal gut feel, but have you seen any evidence she was pushed or backed by anyone? or are you just sure she was?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lautsi_v._Italy

Just to sum up your thinking on this issue ...

Insisting on crucifixes in classrooms, even, as in Italy having laws in place mandating that you have a crucifix in every classroom, isn't pushing ones views.

Asking for them to be removed is?

Interesting link...... Dont be too surprised if there is resistance to the removal of the crucifix....I am sure ai expect it

optogirl

Your beef with Atheist Ireland is your own problem - the majority of atheists don't belong to any group. Tradition is not a reason to keep something going if it is partisan and intrusive.

It was tradition in America for wealthy landowners to own slaves. It was tradition in Ireland to incarcarate homosexuals. It is tradition in some African tribes to mutilate female genitalia - do you think we should hold onto all of these traditions?

Mistress 69

optogirl wrote: »

Your beef with Atheist Ireland is your own problem - the majority of atheists don't belong to any group. Tradition is not a reason to keep something going if it is partisan and intrusive.

It was tradition in America for wealthy landowners to own slaves. It was tradition in Ireland to incarcarate homosexuals. It is tradition in some African tribes to mutilate female genitalia - do you think we should hold onto all of these traditions?

Obviously not.... A lot of people in Ireland do not hold the views of AI, just read the reaction to statue removal in Killarney General hospital, a Quo Vadis Thread. No point comparing Heritage and Tradition to the items you listed. Catholic Ireland having a beef with AI, is more a problem for AI.

optogirl

Mistress 69 wrote: »

Obviously not.... A lot of people in Ireland do not hold the views of AI, just read the reaction to statue removal in Killarney General hospital, a Quo Vadis Thread. No point comparing Heritage and Tradition to the items you listed. Catholic Ireland having a beef with AI, is more a problem for AI.

but you seem to be ignoring the fact that AI does not represent ALL atheists.

Heritage & tradition are exactly what the items I have listed fall under. Not all traditions and heritage are admirable - some are shameful and irrelevant.

Mistress 69

optogirl wrote: »

but you seem to be ignoring the fact that AI does not represent ALL atheists.

Heritage & tradition are exactly what the items I have listed fall under. Not all traditions and heritage are admirable - some are shameful and irrelevant.

Well you have to admit they are a long way off religious heritage in Ireland. I am heartened to hear that ai does not represent all atheists as that means they may not be qute as strong as I thought. Thank God for small mercies!

robindch

Mistress 69 wrote: »

As Donatello said on a recent Qou Vadis thread re Killarney general hospital.

And as I corrected on the same thread, the statue wasn't removed. Instead, it was moved to a place in the front yard, not far from the front door, where it wouldn't hurt anybody if it fell over (as the HSE felt it might, from its position over the main door to the place).

http://www.imt.ie/news/2011/06/hse-ordered-to-return-kerry-moving-statue.html

This is another example of religious people taking something quite innocuous, being less than honest about it, then claiming persecution.

Mistress 69

robindch wrote: »

And as I corrected on the same thread, the statue wasn't removed. Instead, it was moved to a place in the front yard, not far from the front door, where it wouldn't hurt anybody if it fell over (as the HSE felt it might, from its position over the main door to the place).

http://www.imt.ie/news/2011/06/hse-ordered-to-return-kerry-moving-statue.html

This is another example of religious people taking something quite innocuous, being less than honest about it, then claiming persecution.

You are right, they did move it around the side. Bad example chosen by me.

robindch

Mistress 69 wrote: »

Well you have to admit they are a long way off religious heritage in Ireland.

And to correct another misconception:

Like myself and I suspect most atheists, AI have no beef with the nation's "religious heritage", or at least with the public monuments that it's left behind. It's inaccurate and unfair of you to claim otherwise.

AI are out to reduce the baleful and prejudicial influence of the catholic church and other religious organizations from Irish life, and the privileged position then currently enjoy. And specifically, these include the current legal right to refuse education to the children of atheists or other people with incompatible views, whether it's their belief that they have the right to indoctrinate impressionable and naive children with silly religious fairy tales, whether it's their continual propagation of deeply antisocial views about gay men and women, whether it's their past and occasionally continuing attempts to deny institutional and personal responsibility for the abuse, rape and torture of thousands of Irish kids.

If you're going to complain about an organization, then please complain about what it is doing, rather than what it isn't.

robindch

Mistress 69 wrote: »

Bad example chosen by me.

The same could have been done to every example you picked.

The "thin end of the wedge", as you put it, does not exist.

optogirl

Mistress 69 wrote: »

Well you have to admit they are a long way off religious heritage in Ireland.

How are they a long way of religious heritage in Ireland??
1. RCC still claims that homosexuals are sinners
2. women who became pregnant out of wedlock were sent away and their children taken away from them
3. People who get a divorce (yes, even those who are beaten and raped by their partners) are going against RCC rules and cannot 'take communion'
4. Using contraception is a sin - yes! even if you already have 12 mouths to feed and are on the breadline.
5. Priests who abuse are sheltered
6. Preisets cannot marry adult women in a consensual relationship - oh they used to be allowed to until the greedy vatican realised the rectories were being inherited by the children instead of all that lovely wealth going to them so they put a stop to that quickly

All of the above are traditions and heritage of the RCC in Ireland - many of them are still in practice- why the hell should I, or anyone looking for a fair & equitable society, respect any of them?

Mistress 69

optogirl wrote: »

How are they a long way of religious heritage in Ireland??
1. RCC still claims that homosexuals are sinners
2. women who became pregnant out of wedlock were sent away and their children taken away from them
3. People who get a divorce (yes, even those who are beaten and raped by their partners) are going against RCC rules and cannot 'take communion'
4. Using contraception is a sin - yes! even if you already have 12 mouths to feed and are on the breadline.
5. Priests who abuse are sheltered
6. Preisets cannot marry adult women in a consensual relationship - oh they used to be allowed to until the greedy vatican realised the rectories were being inherited by the children instead of all that lovely wealth going to them so they put a stop to that quickly



All of the above are traditions and heritage of the RCC in Ireland - many of them are still in practice- why the hell should I, or anyone looking for a fair & equitable society, respect any of them?

Maybe I should give you my views on each of your points

1 True they do. I do not agree with them on that.
2 Sent by their parents, who should be ashamed of themselves.
3 I voted for divorce.
4 I am a sinner. Another thread this has come up on---Core Beliefs of Atheism.
5 Stop hiding them and hand them over to the Law
6 I have not heard of rectories/kids issue before now. Priests should be allowed to marry.

Even Catholics who have not defected have major issues with all the valid points you raised.

optogirl

Mistress 69 wrote: »

Maybe I should give you my views on each of your points

1 True they do. I do not agree with them on that.
2 Sent by their parents, who should be ashamed of themselves.
3 I voted for divorce.
4 I am a sinner. Another thread this has come up on---Core Beliefs of Atheism.
5 Stop hiding them and hand them over to the Law
6 I have not heard of rectories/kids issue before now. Priests should be allowed to marry.

Even Catholics who have not defected have major issues with all the valid points you raised.

So you disagree with many of the main tenets of catholicism. You are kidding yourself if you think you are a catholic. Why not just claim to be christian instead of subscribing to a brand of religion that you don't actually believe in and whose practices you disagree with?

Can you understand why many people, not just atheists, find the catholic tradition in this coutnry offensive? I am actually angry with the church for what they have done in this country & find their presence in our schools, hospitals, daily lives offensive and redundant.

Mistress 69

robindch wrote: »

And to correct another misconception:

Like myself and I suspect most atheists, AI have no beef with the nation's "religious heritage", or at least with the public monuments that it's left behind. It's inaccurate and unfair of you to claim otherwise.

AI are out to reduce the baleful and prejudicial influence of the catholic church and other religious organizations from Irish life, and the privileged position then currently enjoy. And specifically, these include the current legal right to refuse education to the children of atheists or other people with incompatible views, whether it's their belief that they have the right to indoctrinate impressionable and naive children with silly religious fairy tales, whether it's their continual propagation of deeply antisocial views about gay men and women, whether it's their past and occasionally continuing attempts to deny institutional and personal responsibility for the abuse, rape and torture of thousands of Irish kids.

If you're going to complain about an organization, then please complain about what it is doing, rather than what it isn't.

The School issue has been discussed at length on this thread. I think the department of education have huge influence in schools regardless of whether the board of management is RC or CoI. As for silly Religous Fairy stories The Religon books I have seen are approved bt the Department and are a very long way from the stuff we had as kids. You are very wrong as to the propagation of deeply antisocial views about gay men and women. As for the child abuse I think we all agree that the perpetrators should be brought to justice, we dont need ai to tell us that.

optogirl

Mistress 69 wrote: »

As for silly Religous Fairy stories The Religon books I have seen are approved bt the Department and are a very long way from the stuff we had as kids.

so no bolli* about noah's ark and women being created from a rib and people turning into pillars of salt?

You are very wrong as to the propagation of deeply antisocial views about gay men and women.

no - you are very wrong. From www.catholic.com

'Every human being is called to receive a gift of divine sonship, to become a child of God by grace. However, to receive this gift, we must reject sin, including homosexual behavior—that is, acts intended to arouse or stimulate a sexual response regarding a person of the same sex. The Catholic Church teaches that such acts are always violations of divine and natural law. '

As for the child abuse I think we all agree that the perpetrators should be brought to justice, we dont need ai to tell us that.

nothing to do with AI. And if we 'all agree' they should be brought to justice, why weren't they? Sickening.

Ghost Buster

Mistress 69 wrote: »

Not by Atheist Ireland, and I stand corrected, she is from Finland and living in Italy.

Mounting legal challanges of that nature costs a lot, but maybe she is wealthy and had no external help. Doubt it though!

And yet you have used this woman as an example of Atheist Ireland 'pushing' their views

Mistress 69

Ghost Buster wrote: »

And yet you have used this woman as an example of Atheist Ireland 'pushing' their views

No I dont think I did, without going through all the posts I said that The removal of the crucifix from schools was an objective of AI. This woman came up in relation to the case at the European Court.

robindch

Mistress 69 wrote: »

The [...] that.

You haven't answered any of the objections.

Mistress 69

optogirl wrote: »

so no bolli* about noah's ark and women being created from a rib and people turning into pillars of salt?




no - you are very wrong. From www.catholic.com

'Every human being is called to receive a gift of divine sonship, to become a child of God by grace. However, to receive this gift, we must reject sin, including homosexual behavior—that is, acts intended to arouse or stimulate a sexual response regarding a person of the same sex. The Catholic Church teaches that such acts are always violations of divine and natural law. '



nothing to do with AI. And if we 'all agree' they should be brought to justice, why weren't they? Sickening.

Department of Education approved books. Take it up with them.
I will look at the link later.
Divine sonship paragraph, never was pushed on me in school, and never heard of it till now. Cant see the department or any teachers I know running with it.
I reckon the authorites have brought to justice quite a few and rightly so. As to why it did not happen before.......dunno!


Just looked at the link... I have visited that site before looking for points to fire into the mix here also. When I referred to the propgation of anti social views against gays and that no way would that happen, I meant in schools.

Mistress 69

robindch wrote: »

You haven't answered any of the objections.

Too many posts already today. Which ones Remind me

robindch

Mistress 69 wrote: »

Which ones Remind me

In this post in which you acknowledged issues, but you didn't engage with them in any meaningful way.

Mistress 69

robindch wrote: »

In this post in which you acknowledged issues, but you didn't engage with them in any meaningful way.

Religious Heritage
That’s just it! Define Religious Heritage. I and many like me would regard the Angelus as part of Ireland’s Religious Heritage. The country like it or not is still a Catholic one. The debate as to whether most if not all Catholics have been excommunicated latae sententiae is ongoing on another thread, so let’s deal with that another day. I have stated many times I and many like me are far from perfect examples of our religion, but we take issue with AI attempting to remove the Angelus, and will continue to do so. No intentions of letting it go just because AI want it gone and I do not think I am being unfair. I have no doubt AI will have another shot at The Angelus, having already succeeded in getting religious imagery taken off it. I see David Nugent now hates it even more. No pleasing some people. Maybe it could be restored to the way it was.




Refusal of Education to non Catholics.

The current legal right to refuse exists and it is up to The Department of Education to deal with that. Bear in Mind that means anyone can get a refusal, not just Atheists. I can only speak only for schools in my area... and I know A LOT of people in this town. None of us have encountered a refusal, atheist friends included.

Indoctrination with Silly Stories

These so called silly stories as you name them have been handed down since Christianity began. I don’t see a problem with them. The books the kids read are Department approved and to my knowledge, correct me if I am wrong, they are in schools across the board. Obviously you take issue with this and you are entitled to do so. Question: What harm are they doing?

Gay People

In no way have I or anyone I know come across any, not to mind continual propagation of deeply antisocial views re gay people. You may be looking at Dogma there, certainly nothing in schools. Granted The RC Church have issues with it, that will not change. Wheras many RC's may have had issues with it in the dim and distant past I would not say there are any who do now.


As for the child abuse I think we all agree that the perpetrators should be brought to justice. Lots of them have.

Most importantly we do take immense issue with the attempts of the men who run the Church to deny responsibility.

I could put it to you that the failings of the MEN who run the church are being exploited by AI in order to push their views.


Complaining..... I am.......... just not loudly enough!

Michael Nugent E&OE

optogirl

Mistress 69 wrote: »

The country like it or not is still a Catholic one.

Rubbish.

Mistress 69

optogirl wrote: »

Rubbish.

The quickest reply on record. I think you should win a prize for that one.

CerebralCortex

Mistress 69 wrote: »

I see David Nugent now hates it even more. No pleasing some people. Maybe it could be restored to the way it was.

<squeaks through silly rant>It's Michael Nugent</squeaks through silly rant>

optogirl

it is really sickening to hear somebody say that something like the Angelus is perfectly acceptable simply because it's what THEY want. It is partisan and redundant and excludes anyone who is not catholic.

Mistress 69

optogirl wrote: »

it is really sickening to hear somebody say that something like the Angelus is perfectly acceptable simply because it's what THEY want. It is partisan and redundant and excludes anyone who is not catholic.

Maybe you should watch sky news at 6 instead !

optogirl

Mistress 69 wrote: »

Maybe you should watch sky news at 6 instead !

I'd rather go to mass than watch that tripe

I shouldn't be excluded from my national broadcaster's news because I am not catholic. It is outrageous of you to suggest it. If I wanted religious instruction I would join a prayer group or religion. I don't so I wont.

Mistress 69

CerebralCortex wrote: »

<squeaks through silly rant>It's Michael Nugent</squeaks through silly rant>

Is that your best shot..............wow!

Delirium

Mistress 69, "that's just the way things are" isn't a good reason to give the RCC a place of privilege above other religious groups and non-religious groups.

also, just because people you know haven't had a child refused a place in a school doesn't mean it's a very real problem for a lot of people, religious and non-religious alike.

The Ireland is a Catholic country is a crap statement because it makes it sound like non-Catholics aren't to be considered as "true" Irish :rolleyes:

Mistress 69

optogirl wrote: »

I'd rather go to mass than watch that tripe

I shouldn't be excluded from my national broadcaster's news because I am not catholic. It is outrageous of you to suggest it. If I wanted religious instruction I would join a prayer group or religion. I don't so I wont.

Maybe you should go back to Mass....Forgiveness and all that stuff...No one excluded you from the news.... why dont you just watch the tellytubbies instead then!:p

Mistress 69

koth wrote: »

Mistress 69, "that's just the way things are" isn't a good reason to give the RCC a place of privilege above other religious groups and non-religious groups.

also, just because people you know haven't had a child refused a place in a school doesn't mean it's a very real problem for a lot of people, religious and non-religious alike.

The Ireland is a Catholic country is a crap statement because it makes it sound like non-Catholics aren't to be considered as "true" Irish :rolleyes:

Not so, and not intended to. Have a look at the CIA website re Ireland. Would you argue with their figures!

optogirl

Mistress 69 wrote: »

Not so, and not intended to. Have a look at the CIA website re Ireland. Would you argue with their figures!

They are going on figures from the 2006 census. I'll be very surprised if those figures add up when the 2011 census is totted up. And wtf has what the CIA say about Ireland got to do with the reality here in the country. Accept it. Catholicism is dying an agonisingly slow death and deservedly so.

Delirium

Mistress 69 wrote: »

Not so, and not intended to. Have a look at the CIA website re Ireland. Would you argue with their figures!

You made the statement, not the CIA.

Ireland's largest religious group is RCC, perfectly fine.

Ireland is a Catholic country, nonsense. First of all, we have divorce in this country. Last I checked that's not a sacrament of the RCC.

P.S. I checked the CIA website for any statement that Ireland is a Catholic country, and surprise, surprise there isn't one.

optogirl

Mistress 69 wrote: »

Maybe you should go back to Mass....Forgiveness and all that stuff...No one excluded you from the news.... why dont you just watch the tellytubbies instead then!:p

mmm, a very measured and reasonable argument.Delighted to see the smiley faces are back - they're great for when you have nothing to say aren't they?