Time to burn Greece?

Cork boy 55

Peanut wrote: »

I wouldn't really get too hung up on this, it's natural that in an economic downturn the dominant party/parties will be blamed and the vote fragmented. Possibly many people have voted far-right/left out of desperation more than any real allegiance to that type of politics.

I think Greece could stagger out of this mess if it got really serious about promoting tourism. Slash, I mean really cut the hotel prices, Ryanair style, and make things as easy as possible for people to holiday there. I remember looking at hotel prices a year or two ago in some parts of Greece and they were still far too expensive compared to Bulgaria and Turkey. I just hope that they were in fact booked to capacity and not keeping prices artificially high in order to maintain some sort of aspirational pricing level.

I am not an expert on Greek tourism or how much money they can make from it(% of gdp) but it seems to me that the Arab spring should have been a gold mine for them
All the tourist stopped going to Tunisa and Egypt.
Instead they(the greeks) engaged in waves of transport and power strikes and Turkey picked up the most of the displaced trade.

Would you go on holiday to Greece when the whole thing could be ruined
by a wildcat strike?

Monty Burnz

Irish Aris wrote: »

You're confusing two different things.
People that (used to) retire at 45 relate to public sector.
People that relate to tourism often are of a certain age.

Sorry, that was just a bad joke to be honest.

Cork boy 55

Good graphic from Guardian at link mapping election results

I cannot post all the image for some reason



http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2012/may/06/greece-elections-results-map?intcmp=239

washman3

Irish Aris wrote: »

I am glad that we have this conversation, it's good to hear different perspectives on the issues. Being a Greek abroad, my perspective has shifted a bit too.
You are all making valid points.
Part of the Greek population dragged us all down and it's only natural that we need to clear this mess - by ourselves and with the help of others.
In trying to understand this election result, let me give you two points.
Ever since the austerity program began (2 years now):
1.There was no measure taken for the development of the country. In fact, whenever Troika people are coming, there is no mention of such measures. All we hear is "cut cut cut. .. ". Which of course is correct, but I think it can't work on its own. If it isn't backed up by actual development, it will lead to a dead end.
2.The situation as is now: working people who always paid their taxes, get the biggest impact with the new measures. And people who were stealing. . .well, they keep on stealing - politicians/governmentals not excluded.

interesting to hear you points. for the past 2 years all we have heard about Greece is "that nobody paid taxes,everybody retired far too early,wages were too high,most people owned at least 2 houses" and numerous other quotes like this. how much of this is true and how much is b###s##t.
Seems to me that Greece's problems were caused in a very similar way to our own. the elite partied like there was no tomorrow,politicans bought votes by promising to get pot-holes filled,fast-tracking planning permission,obtaining medical cards and disability allowances for people that were in perfect health,facilitating college grants for the children of well-off farmers who were able to "cook their books"
And now the people that worked and paid their taxes through all of this are asked to pick up the tab for all of this corruption.
Like to hear more of your views.!!

Monty Burnz

washman3 wrote: »

interesting to hear you points. for the past 2 years all we have heard about Greece is "that nobody paid taxes,everybody retired far too early,wages were too high,most people owned at least 2 houses" and numerous other quotes like this. how much of this is true and how much is b###s##t.

I don't think it's bull at all. I imagine the PAYE folks who had zero choice paid their taxes, and that was just about it. Have you read this article? It's very interesting, and I think you'll be amazed. Their problems were caused in a completely different way to ours.

zootroid

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I don't think it's bull at all. I imagine the PAYE folks who had zero choice paid their taxes, and that was just about it. Have you read this article? It's very interesting, and I think you'll be amazed. Their problems were caused in a completely different way to ours.

Read that article a few months ago, very interesting

McDave

Irish Aris wrote: »

Well, we wouldn't know if there are any political forces to put us back on track, because the majority of Greeks kept voting for PASOK or Nea Dimokratia for the last 35 years. Unofficial polls done the last month saw a tendency towards people voting for various parties. If that were to happen, we would have a parliament with 6,7 maybe 8 parties and it would make it very difficult for a coalition to happen. But, precedents have shown that at the last minute most people will still vote for the 2 aforementioned parties who, at the time, are trying to convince the people that if one of the two is not elected again, it is the end for Greece.
I am pretty sure that many people will buy it. . .and many of them will be those who protested in front of the parliament. . .

Too bad I won't be able to vote. . .

It's a real dilemma IA. Time is short. But it's been a crisis for a long time in Greece. Instead of inspiration or simple boring competence, all we seem to see from Greece is impotent rage and protest.

I would have thought at this stage there would be a voice proposing fair public administration, reasonable tax collection and a clampdown on corruption. But no. What do we get? Anti-austerity rhetoric. That's posturing.

I'm personally in favour of the broadest EU church. If only in the hope that the less developed states are motivated to improve themselves. However, I get a real sense that the Balkans really is different. And in a bad way. And that that is Greece's real level.

I also get a sense that, contrary to the revolt-against-austerity narrative in the aftermath of the Greek and French votes, public opinion is starting to run against Greece. When taxpayers decide it's better to cut Greece loose and start afresh, then Greeks really have to be worried. That's one tanker they won't be able to turn around.

Irish Aris

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Sorry, that was just a bad joke to be honest.

oops. . .sorry, I didn't realise that. . .it's just that this whole situation in Greece is so disappointing/frustrating. . .

Irish Aris

Thanks a million everybody for sharing thoughts on this. It’s good to know where we stand on other nation’s opinion.
My disappointment becomes bigger because I can’t really contradict you on what you are saying. Granted, some of the points are generalisations that not relate to the whole population but as I said before, part of Greeks brought everybody down. I guess our share of the blame is that we did nothing to stop it (or, at least try to), we were naïve enough to think we would be alright in the end.
My frustration becomes even bigger because, when I moved to Ireland last October, I came in the idea that I will stay and work here for 3-4 years and then go back to Greece and continue my life. 7 months later my idea is that I never want to go back. . .ever. . .because Ireland looks like a paradise compared to Greece. . .(OK, what I am about to say is totally humiliating for me but. . .I even checked the department of justice website to find the requirements if I want to apply for Irish Citizenship). If it weren’t for so many people back home, family and friends, who are working like normal people do and don’t cheat/steal and have a hard time, I wouldn’t give a cent about my own country. . .again , very disappointing. . .
(apologies everyone for the personal breakout. . .)
Washman3, I am not sure our problems are similar. I don’t know the details on what’s the story in Ireland, but the general idea around was that you had a main specific problem with banks and real estate. So, to my eyes, it’s easier to find a solution to it. Greece’s problem is so widespread, that you don’t even know where to begin. Some of the characteristics you mention, though, are indeed similar, namely transactional status between governments and voters.
Monty Burnz, I didn’t read the article, it’s too long. But the minute I read the word Vatopedi, it did for me. One of the biggest scandals in recent years. And I have a more general issue with Greek Orthodox church. They are in a very unique spot: they are practically a company (VRN, tax office and all), actually every single church/monastery has its own VRN. Huge property, in amounts of billions Euro. In my previous work in Greece, we actually rent the floor we were in from a monastery in Agio Oros, paid 10000 euro a month. All these monasteries, church in general, are exempt of taxes. Completely. Based on a law that PASOK voted back in the 80’s. Later on, early 90’s, there was another law brought in the Greek parliament that wanted to reinstate the taxation for church and was actually voted, but no government dared to enforce it. In the meantime, the Greek church, based on something effected many many decades ago that everything in a 100 metres perimeter of a church belongs to the church, sued cities/municipals, claiming ground. I’d say, if we manage to put this mess in order, it wouldn’t be a bad idea to start taxing the church. We are talking hundreds of millions of income for the state on a yearly basis. But only after we put the mess to order, otherwise any money coming in might not be used for practical purposes.
Not declaring myself expert, but I have some basic background in economics, and I thought of the following scenario. Right now Greece has public property that’s sitting there, nothing happening. Some of it in very nice areas, close to sea etc. Why don’t they just attract foreign investors to come and use it with the only term that they will use Greek people as employees. That way you start to develop and you fight unemployment (which currently is 22%, 1.5 million people unemployed). It’s a simple enough plan, but if someone like me can think of something, surely all those big heads around Greece and Europe can come up with much better plans.
Am I sounding naïve right now?

paddy0090

McDave wrote: »

....Instead of inspiration or simple boring competence, all we seem to see from Greece is impotent rage and protest.

We don't seem to get much of either in Ireland! There's a bit of the pot calling the kettle black here. None of our PS unions have been as directly affected by the austerity as the Greeks PS despite our deficit being bigger. And let's not forget the election posturing of both govt parties.

I would have thought at this stage there would be a voice proposing fair public administration, reasonable tax collection and a clampdown on corruption. But no. What do we get? Anti-austerity rhetoric. That's posturing.

Lots of people want these things in Ireland as they do in Greece if you read any number of articles quoting citizens.

• This is debatable - while administration is broadly fair there is still some areas of public life where the govt of the day stuffs in its' buddies. Also it's still too big.
• The property tax has been an unmitigated disaster only half of the public have paid.
• Moriarty; Mahon ;Anglo.

We're four years into this recession and we face a second bailout, which will likely feature some of the measures enacted in Greece. It's a premature to deem it a success seeing as the economy is again shrinking. Pretending that all's well and saying the economy will grow despite the best available evidence is also posturing.

I also get a sense that, contrary to the revolt-against-austerity narrative in the aftermath of the Greek and French votes, public opinion is starting to run against Greece. When taxpayers decide it's better to cut Greece loose and start afresh, then Greeks really have to be worried. That's one tanker they won't be able to turn around.

That's true, but then the public were always against the bailouts to some extent. What has changed now is that the banks have been sufficently firewalled against a second default so the EUs elites no longer care and are confident enough to let it go.

Dan_Solo

Monty Burnz wrote: »

And only a 65% turnout. Amazing, really - the future of their state is at existential risk.

This is Greece, you know been around for 3,000 years? I'm sure they've seen worse. What states have ceased to exist after a default as a matter of interest?

Dan_Solo

They have a party called "The Golden Dawn"? :eek:
Well if praying to God hasn't helped...

Monty Burnz

Dan_Solo wrote: »

This is Greece, you know been around for 3,000 years? I'm sure they've seen worse. What states have ceased to exist after a default as a matter of interest?

The Hellenic Republic hasn't been around for 3000 years - it's a very young country, a lot younger than the ROI. The ground that it sits on has been there a lot longer than 3000 years though.

Cork boy 55

it's just occured to me that the greeks
get a far worse press in anglo-media sphere
than the other med countries

I cannot recall a single bad story about coruuption in portugual
for example just stories about how hard it is for their factories to complete with Asia

....

I think the greeks need to vote in referendum on the future and the parties
then need to respect this and go forward with what they say.
to break political deadlock

Cork boy 55

Third coalition bid has failed it up to president now
to see if he cannot get them to agree another election if he fails.





The leader of Greece's socialist party, Evangelos Venizelos, has abandoned efforts to form a new government.
Mr Venizelos, the third leader to try to forge a coalition since Sunday's inconclusive elections, said he would now meet the president in a last-ditch effort to avoid fresh polls.
There has been no breakthrough in Mr Venizelos' talks with other parties.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18041223

thebman

No need to burn them, they can do that themselves it seems.

They might need the lend of a match though :P

ardmacha

thebman wrote:

They might need the lend of a match though

Actually, they are sending us a light.



Should we send Jedward back with it?

AlmightyCushion

ardmacha wrote: »

Should we send Jedward back with it?

I think the Greeks have suffered enough.

Idbatterim

that is a fascinating article. Glad I took the time out to read it. Greece seems like an extreme version of Ireland in relation to the corruption.. The sense of entitlement etc...

“The first thing a government does in an election year is to pull the tax collectors off the streets.”

whereas in Ireland we just have giveaway budgets...

The vast economy of self-employed workers—everyone from doctors to the guys who ran the kiosks that sold the International Herald Tribune—cheated (one big reason why Greece has the highest percentage of self-employed workers of any European country). “It’s become a cultural trait,” he said. “The Greek people never learned to pay their taxes. And they never did because no one is punished. No one has ever been punished. It’s a cavalier offense—like a gentleman not opening a door for a lady.”

The Greek state was not just corrupt but also corrupting. Once you saw how it worked you could understand a phenomenon which otherwise made no sense at all:

the above two extracts bear a lot of similarities to here, the non existent punishment not matching the crime. everybody else is on the take, why shouldn't I be?

But this question of whether Greece will repay its debts is really a question of whether Greece will change its culture, and that will happen only if Greeks want to change.

if they arent prepared to help themselves, there is no hope...

Here is Greece’s version of the Tea Party: tax collectors on the take, public-school teachers who don’t really teach, well-paid employees of bankrupt state railroads whose trains never run on time, state hospital workers bribed to buy overpriced supplies.

change this for councillors on the take, councils and government departments awarding contracts to mates or others for kickbacks etc...

kennyb3

It's the bank run thats going on at present that will see Germany pull the plug.

The target 2 will get too big.

maninasia

If the Greeks are smart they will take all their savings out and convert whatever they have into Euro now. Then when they drop out of the Euro and devalue their savings will still be there in many cases but their economy will be more competitive.

Sure they will be paid less in Euro then but at least most of their daily costs will be in drachma so the hit won't be too bad.

So Greeks
1) Take your cash in Euro and keep it in your gaffs (seems they have been listening)
2) Default and drop out of Euro

kennyb3

maninasia wrote: »

If the Greeks are smart they will take all their savings out and convert whatever they have into Euro now. Then when they drop out of the Euro and devalue their savings will still be there in many cases but their economy will be more competitive.

Sure they will be paid less in Euro then but at least most of their daily costs will be in drachma so the hit won't be too bad.

So Greeks
1) Take your cash in Euro and keep it in your gaffs (seems they have been listening)
2) Default and drop out of Euro

Already happening and has been for months and months

Finnbar01

Dan_Solo wrote: »

They have a party called "The Golden Dawn"? :eek:
Well if praying to God hasn't helped...

And The Golden Dawn is a Neo-Nazi party which won sometime like 21 seats in the recent elections as a result of German imposed austerity.

I hope the irony is not lost on posters here.

Monty Burnz

Finnbar01 wrote: »

And The Golden Dawn is a Neo-Nazi party which won sometime like 21 seats in the recent elections as a result of German imposed austerity.

I hope the irony is not lost on posters here.

This is nonsense - 'the Germans' haven't imposed austerity on the Greeks. The Greeks have run out of money because nobody will lend to them. Nobody will lend to them because their government has been carrying out a fraud on the bond markets for a decade or so.

This is the equivalent of me claiming that the Irish government is imposing 'austerity' on me when I run out of money because I've been living way beyond my means on money conned from various credit unions and I've finally been found out.

Finnbar01

Monty Burnz wrote: »

This is nonsense - 'the Germans' haven't imposed austerity on the Greeks. The Greeks have run out of money because nobody will lend to them. Nobody will lend to them because their government has been carrying out a fraud on the bond markets for a decade or so.

This is the equivalent of me claiming that the Irish government is imposing 'austerity' on me when I run out of money because I've been living way beyond my means on money conned from various credit unions and I've finally been found out.

They ran on a platform that Germany was imposing austerity... but I do agree, that the Greeks brought all their problems onto themselves.

fptosca

The Greeks have an historical opportunity of getting out of the Euro and I don't think they will let it go. Massive default will follow and tough times will continue for a while... but if they are clever after that, they will outperform the Eurozone for years to come. The key point on their history is not to get out of the Euro, it's who is in power after that.
Their economy and Country will perform infinitely better outside of the Euro than it could have ever been within the Euro. Greeks understand that and will go through everything that is required to get out.

Ireland should take note of that. Hold on for the Bailout program to end next year and get back to the Pound.

Diarmuid

fptosca wrote: »

but if they are clever after that, they will outperform the Eurozone for years to come..

If they were clever, they would never have gotten into this mess in the first place.

fptosca

Diarmuid wrote: »

fptosca wrote: »

but if they are clever after that, they will outperform the Eurozone for years to come..

If they were clever, they would never have gotten into this mess in the first place.

you are right. That's why I say after they leave the Euro. They need to learn the lessons that brough them to this situation pretty quickly

golfwallah

Dan_Solo wrote: »

This is Greece, you know been around for 3,000 years? I'm sure they've seen worse. What states have ceased to exist after a default as a matter of interest?

Mississippi defaulted and repudiated its debts in 1841 and still exists - but just about, as the poorest state in the union: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/15/americas-poorest-states-_n_964058.html#s362459&title=1_Mississippi

Time will tell what happens to Greece, but I'd prefer to see Ireland being pro-active as regards fixing our economy, rather than following the example of the unfortunates in places like Greece or Mississippi.:)

lmaopml

Diarmuid wrote: »

If they were clever, they would never have gotten into this mess in the first place.

Same could be said for the Irish

After the WWII the Germans had plenty of time to understand the concept of fiscal stability and planning, unfortunately our state was very young at the time and the EU gave us our chance, first boom and 'boom' - we blew it.

I think it's a crying shame that something, anything, could not be done for Greece, Ireland and Portugal as part of the EU, some kind of imagination among the imaginative that doesn't leave economies on the bread line or drip fed for decades...afterall Greek kids are just like Irish ones, and unfortunately once the kids start suffering for the sake of the Euro, than most likely the normal Irish Joe will say 'feck that' too, even if it means rebuilding, taking a new direction - and the Euro will be consigned to history. I don't want to see that, but I think that the austerity programs are morally wrong in very many ways to be honest.

You are guilty.

No, I'm not....

You are.
You are.
You are. You spent the money...

Well it was cheap, I borrowed, I could pay it back then..

You signed the contract.

It was sold to me.

You must pay, if not you, your children - this is about honour, not the Euro Currency

Wha?

Er, well maybe I am in the wrong so, thanks for pointing that out to me, while I pay you back over the next few years you don't mind me being a little bit on the cute side and investing in domestic industry with that few quid? Especially in the areas where domestic business and small medium enterprises actually get support so that we can pay you back?

I don't care how you do it -

Cheers.

So, 'Enda' - what about these jobs?





The Germans don't seem in this case to be the ones that want to impose austerity. I think well balanced budgets and good plans not year on year plans, but perhaps five year budgets etc. going forward is the lesson of the day for us....In saying that, we'll be paying a long time to learn that lesson, and I think the ECB need to reconnect a little better in order for people to love the Euro.

Yes we love our jobs, yes we love being fed, having opportunities etc. etc. but we really don't like sending kids away having educated them - there comes a time when one wonders whether there is an actual 'connection' with the ECB and the Euro Currency and the people. It's a great idea, but there needs to be a decent safeguard against making mistakes in the Euro Zone with fiscal policy etc.

That's why I'm voting 'Yes' - In hope against hope that this good thing can beat the odds and make crucial decisions collectively but in an humanitarian way too

golden lane

lmaopml wrote: »

Same could be said for the Irish

After the WWII the Germans had plenty of time to understand the concept of fiscal stability and planning, unfortunately our state was very young at the time and the EU gave us our chance, first boom and 'boom' - we blew it.

I think it's a crying shame that something, anything, could not be done for Greece, Ireland and Portugal as part of the EU, some kind of imagination among the imaginative that doesn't leave economies on the bread line or drip fed for decades...afterall Greek kids are just like Irish ones, and unfortunately once the kids start suffering for the sake of the Euro, than most likely the normal Irish Joe will say 'feck that' too, even if it means rebuilding, taking a new direction - and the Euro will be consigned to history. I don't want to see that, but I think that the austerity programs are morally wrong in very many ways to be honest.

You are guilty.

No, I'm not....

You are.
You are.
You are. You spent the money...

Well it was cheap, I borrowed, I could pay it back then..

You signed the contract.

It was sold to me.

You must pay, if not you, your children - this is about honour, not the Euro Currency

Wha?

Er, well maybe I am in the wrong so, thanks for pointing that out to me, while I pay you back over the next few years you don't mind me being a little bit on the cute side and investing in domestic industry with that few quid? Especially in the areas where domestic business and small medium enterprises actually get support so that we can pay you back?

I don't care how you do it -

Cheers.

So, 'Enda' - what about these jobs?





The Germans don't seem in this case to be the ones that want to impose austerity. I think well balanced budgets and good plans not year on year plans, but perhaps five year budgets etc. going forward is the lesson of the day for us....In saying that, we'll be paying a long time to learn that lesson, and I think the ECB need to reconnect a little better in order for people to love the Euro.

Yes we love our jobs, yes we love being fed, having opportunities etc. etc. but we really don't like sending kids away having educated them - there comes a time when one wonders whether there is an actual 'connection' with the ECB and the Euro Currency and the people. It's a great idea, but there needs to be a decent safeguard against making mistakes in the Euro Zone with fiscal policy etc.

That's why I'm voting 'Yes' - In hope against hope that this good thing can beat the odds and make crucial decisions collectively but in an humanitarian way too

hurry up and get elected.......great post......

lmaopml

golden lane wrote: »

hurry up and get elected.......great post......

Yeah but they have recapitalised the banks and that was the way to stimulate growth, credit facilities, paying employees etc. Keeping the cash flowing in the ATM's avoids anarchy, and that's the reality. The devil and the deep blue sea.

In the meantime the sharks, those companies that supply domestic needs, the monopolies, electricity, gas, communication, are oblivious like it's not happening, and don't seem to understand or rise to the challenge that the normal joe does in facing at least a 30% cut or indeed a 100%, while facing higher 'living' costs. The cost of basic food in the country is ridiculously high, unless one decides to buy foreign produce in Aldi. Way to go!!!


There is something fundamentally wrong when a need to rise to the challenge of paying the bills, which everybody on the island signed up for doesn't incorporate a reasonable plan from those who recommend signing up to that...... also, have a plan, a really good plan, to reduce the cost of basic living instead of privatising everthing and selling off things like the Electricity Grid...it's like as if the State would rather have private companies in control than have any involvement, 'I wash my hands' -

Talk about time to grow a pair. Or at least make some kind of alternate plan, and not look blissfully on...

darkman2

Noonan critical of Greek stance

DEREK SCALLY in Berlin

IRELAND AND Portugal have attacked Greece for “stoking up the fire” in the euro zone with its consistent failure to adhere to austerity measures.

Minister for Finance Michael Noonan and his Portuguese counterpart Vitor Gaspar attacked Greece at last week’s Eurogroup meeting, according to Der Spiegel. They said it was “unacceptable” that they made huge efforts to fulfil budget programmes while Greece “unerringly breaks its reform commitments”. Other ministers agreed, the magazine reported, saying Greek “negligence” was “stoking up again and again the fire of contagion”.

Eurogroup chairman Jean-Claude Juncker told the meeting: “If we had a secret ballot over keeping Greece in the euro zone, a huge majority would be against.”

A senior European official confirmed the Spiegel report yesterday, saying Irish and Portuguese criticism of Greece was “factually correct. When Juncker opened the meeting, there was a long 30 seconds of silence, but once [Ireland and Portugal] got stuck in, they all gave it hot and heavy to the Greeks.”

The official described as “utterly black” the mood at the meeting – which ended with Mr Juncker appealing to finance ministers to maintain a public show of confidence for Greece. Ahead of this week’s informal summit in Brussels, that support is dwindling as private political criticism increasingly becomes public.

German finance minister Wolfgang Schäuble was quoted in Bild am Sonntag: “Whoever tells the Greeks they don’t have to meet the savings programme is lying to the Greek people.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0521/1224316455009.html

Spot on tbh. Seems to be clear in private that they want Greece out.

Irish Aris

I'd say Mr Noonan is not wrong on what he says about Greece.
I am Greek (living in Ireland) and the last ten days I am on vacation back home.
A very dear friend of mine was told last week that she will be fired by end of June. Being 52 years old, it is highly unlikely that she will find another job and retirement for her is at least 9 years away.
I have friends that work for Singapore Airlines who announced last week that they are closing their offices in Athens. That's 14 people out of job.
My sister (who works in the broader public sector) hasn't been paid for the last two months and the prediction is that she won't get any salary until the end of June.
My best man's wife (working in the private sector, in a small greek company) is unpaid for almost three months now.
The national telephone company is hiring youngsters up to 25 years old for their call center (where people can call and query numbers from the national catalogue). This is a part-time job, 4 hours a day-20 hours a week. Monthly salary:200 euros (that's two hundred).
Politicians are unable or uninterested to impose the austerity measures that could make a difference for the country. All they do is promise utopias. All they care is how to stay in power (the established parties) or to gain power (the parties that gain votes now). No programmes on what they are going to do, no specific proposals, no connection to the everyday people. . .all they do is fight and blame each other on media.
In my opinion, pretty soon it won't make any difference whether Greece will be in or out of Euro. Standards of everyday life will fall so much (they already are pretty low anyway), so it would be close to what people would have with the Greek Drachma anyway. . .
I'd advise Greek politicians, if they don't have a plan b, to make one very quickly.

Farmer Pudsey

TBH the Greek's are playing a blinder, the ECB will have to support the currency until the election it seem's. This will allow a lot of Greeks to get there money out of the country or into dollor's or sterling. When they exit the euro all they neeed do is change a euro for the new drachma and Bob's your uncle, Merkel will be left holding the ball.

When the Drachma is reintroduced all these people will reconvert little by little back into drachma's and the Greek party will start maybe this time they will have enough cop on not to get themselves into the same mess again

Finnbar01

Irish Aris wrote: »

I'd say Mr Noonan is not wrong on what he says about Greece.
I am Greek (living in Ireland) and the last ten days I am on vacation back home.
A very dear friend of mine was told last week that she will be fired by end of June. Being 52 years old, it is highly unlikely that she will find another job and retirement for her is at least 9 years away.
I have friends that work for Singapore Airlines who announced last week that they are closing their offices in Athens. That's 14 people out of job.
My sister (who works in the broader public sector) hasn't been paid for the last two months and the prediction is that she won't get any salary until the end of June.
My best man's wife (working in the private sector, in a small greek company) is unpaid for almost three months now.
The national telephone company is hiring youngsters up to 25 years old for their call center (where people can call and query numbers from the national catalogue). This is a part-time job, 4 hours a day-20 hours a week. Monthly salary:200 euros (that's two hundred).
Politicians are unable or uninterested to impose the austerity measures that could make a difference for the country. All they do is promise utopias

Irish Aris, what are the chances of a military coup?

Peanut

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

..This will allow a lot of Greeks to get their money out of the country..

I think the ones who can, already have - it doesn't appear that the average Greek has the luxury of stashing their horde overseas and converting back to ₯ after any changeover.

Idbatterim

If the Greeks do leave the Euro, who in gods name would lend to them again?

Maura74

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

TBH the Greek's are playing a blinder, the ECB will have to support the currency until the election it seem's. This will allow a lot of Greeks to get there money out of the country or into dollor's or sterling. When they exit the euro all they neeed do is change a euro for the new drachma and Bob's your uncle, Merkel will be left holding the ball.

When the Drachma is reintroduced all these people will reconvert little by little back into drachma's and the Greek party will start maybe this time they will have enough cop on not to get themselves into the same mess again

The Greeks are over in London spending their money on purchasing property. The properties are not cheap either therefore it is not the average low paid or non paid Greek that is purchasing them.

http://www.propertywire.com/news/europe/greeks-buying-london-property-201005064102.html

Farmer Pudsey

Idbatterim wrote: »

If the Greeks do leave the Euro, who in gods name would lend to them again?

Give it 5 years and it will all be forgotten about. You got to remember it was Goldman Sachs that fiddled the books for them and I do not see anybody chasing them crooks. Believe me there will always be sombody willing to lend if they think they will get there money back.

The reality is the Greeks will be gone I reckon even before the election there. Then the Spanish & Portgueese not necessarly in that order followed by the Italian's and ourselves unless the government have the gut's to do an early runner we are at the endgame I reckon. The can is rusted and full of sh1t and it is impossible to kick it down the road anymore without it expoding in your face.

Idbatterim

Give it 5 years and it will all be forgotten about. You got to remember it was Goldman Sachs that fiddled the books for them and I do not see anybody chasing them crooks. Believe me there will always be sombody willing to lend if they think they will get there money back.

I reckon IF anyone would be prepared to lend to them, it would be at a serious premium, would you be able to believe a word they said?

Farmer Pudsey

Idbatterim wrote: »

I reckon IF anyone would be prepared to lend to them, it would be at a serious premium, would you be able to believe a word they said?

This is not the first time the Greeks have defaulted and it will not be the last either. The Italians are in a bind every other time they ran into fiscal problems they kust devalued there currency the dreaded lira now they cannot do it at present and they will not accept austerity

Monty Burnz

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Give it 5 years and it will all be forgotten about. You got to remember it was Goldman Sachs that fiddled the books for them and I do not see anybody chasing them crooks.

Goldman Sachs were hired to 'fiddle the books', to find a way around the Euro regulations. They did nothing wrong in that instance, but the Greek government crooks did, carrying out a fraud on the rest of the Eurozone.

Farmer Pudsey

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Goldman Sachs were hired to 'fiddle the books', to find a way around the Euro regulations. They did nothing wrong in that instance, but the Greek government crooks did, carrying out a fraud on the rest of the Eurozone.

This is jusy another excuse for white collar crime. It always the same the Greeks are crooks but not Goldman Sachs. It was the same with all the auditor's that signed off on the bank accounts in Ireland. See no evil hear no evil speak no evil until it all goes pear shaped. Then we did not know as the Greeks ( or banks) fooled us.

If I was hired to rob a bank I go to jail it woud be no good saying I was only an employee but if I commit white collar crime it's the Greeks fault.
Did you ever hear of the Nazi's

Monty Burnz

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

This is jusy another excuse for white collar crime.

I'm sorry, but that's total nonsense. No crime was committed by GS. If you don't understand that, then you are out of your depth here.

beeftotheheels

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

This is not the first time the Greeks have defaulted and it will not be the last either.

Oh, it will, for the next 50 years or so. Greece has no chance of returning to the credit markets. Despite what some in the press might like to suggest about the markets having no memory, it is worth noting that prior to their EZ entry there was no Greek sovereign debt market. Because with their history of default, no one would lend to them until the implicit German guarantee of EZ membership. The markets do have a memory. They call it "risk". It was colossally mispriced in the run up to 2008, but the markets won't make that mistake again (for at least a generation in relation to Greece).

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The Italians are in a bind every other time they ran into fiscal problems they kust devalued there currency the dreaded lira now they cannot do it at present and they will not accept austerity

Italy has defaulted, once, partially, in the last several centuries. It partially defaulted against those creditors in countries with which it was at war, during WWII. Italy does not have the mentality of default which Greece clearly does. Italian debt is disproportionately owned by Italian investors hence their reticence to default on it. Italy managed a higher debt mountain, at higher interest rates, in the run up to euro membership. Hence the fact that Italy has traditionally run such a huge debt burden, and the third largest sovereign bond market in the world. Precisely because the markets do have a memory (called risk), and that memory tells them that Italy is good for the money.

Farmer Pudsey

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'm sorry, but that's total nonsense. No crime was committed by GS. If you don't understand that, then you are out of your depth here.

If you are going to quote, quote all the statement as below

If I was hired to rob a bank I go to jail it woud be no good saying I was only an employee but if I commit white collar crime it's the Greeks fault.
Did you ever hear of the Nazi's.

I do not think I am out of my depth, but rather I can differceniate the smoke from the clouds. What Goldman Sachs did was wrong but it is only white collar crime and sure nobody was hurt ( just a lot of ordinary working class Greeks)


And do not ever again be so condesending to tell another poster that they are out of there depth just because you dislike there post as I think it was Willian Henry said
''Sir I totally disagree with what you said but I will defend to the death your right to say it.''

I may not have the quote totally right but that is the gist of it.

beeftotheheels

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

What Goldman Sachs did was wrong but it is only white collar crime and sure nobody was hurt ( just a lot of ordinary working class Greeks)

There is no evidence to date that any crime, white collar or otherwise, was committed.

The Greek Government, as elected by the Greek people, sought to borrow off-balance sheet and GS facilitated this.

If the Greek people had wanted to pay more taxes, or pay less benefits, or draw fewer or lower public sector salaries such that their Gov didn't need to borrow the cash they could have voted for different parties.

But just like the Irish people, the Greek electorate voted in the people who promised them the world with no price tag attached. Once that price tag become apparent they don't get to scream "foul", and no one gets to scream "crime" without that being found by a court of law.

Farmer Pudsey

beeftotheheels wrote: »

Italy has defaulted, once, partially, in the last several centuries. It partially defaulted against those creditors in countries with which it was at war, during WWII. Italy does not have the mentality of default which Greece clearly does. Italian debt is disproportionately owned by Italian investors hence their reticence to default on it. Italy managed a higher debt mountain, at higher interest rates, in the run up to euro membership. Hence the fact that Italy has traditionally run such a huge debt burden, and the third largest sovereign bond market in the world. Precisely because the markets do have a memory (called risk), and that memory tells them that Italy is good for the money.

I never said that the Italian's defaulted rather that they devalued there currency so may times during the 20th centuary that when you were paid it was in millions of lira and you need a barrow to take them home.

beeftotheheels

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I never said that the Italian's defaulted rather that they devalued there currency so may times during the 20th centuary that when you were paid it was in millions of lira and you need a barrow to take them home.

Interest rates and yields took devaluation risk into account. Yet even under those circumstances the bond market participants had lost all patience with Greece. So stop trying to equate the two. One has a history of adhering to rules, while the other has a history of trying to ignore the rules, and trying to ignore the consequences of ignoring said rules.