Time to burn Greece?

Farmer Pudsey

beeftotheheels wrote: »

Interest rates and yields took devaluation risk into account. Yet even under those circumstances the bond market participants had lost all patience with Greece. So stop trying to equate the two. One has a history of adhering to rules, while the other has a history of trying to ignore the rules, and trying to ignore the consequences of ignoring said rules.

History tells us that the Italians will not accept the pain. My own opinion on Greek exiting is that the pressure on Spain and Portagul will be huge as there citizen withdraw money from there banks who are bust. They have used the liquidity from the ECB to buy buy Spanish bonds to get a high intrest rate. Now these bonds are trading at way less than they bought them at. Only one of the big economies can be rescued either Spain or Italy not both and even one is dodgy.

When the Greeks go the donmino effect will begin as one by one the rest of us fall.

SupaNova

I see the Greece and the euro hype is still in full swing, the decision is much the same as it was a year ago, unless Greece want to inflict mass chaos and poverty on their population they will remain in the euro.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/birth-greek-drachma-pained-rushed-085904665.html

"It would be chaos," says Marios Efthymiopoulos, a visiting scholar at Johns Hopkins University Centre for Advanced International Studies and president of Thessaloniki-based think tank Global Strategy.


"The banks would collapse and you would have to nationalize them. You wouldn't be able to pay anyone except in coupons. There is only one (currency) printing press in Greece. It is in the museum in Athens and it doesn't work any more."



[...]


"It would be truly revolutionary, in every sense of the word," says Tyson Barker, head of transatlantic relations at the Bertelsmann Foundation. "There are various ways it could be done ... but you could end up like Cuba with use of multiple currencies or with essentially a barter economy, at least in the early days."


[...]


Euro savings held in Greek banks would inevitably be redenominated in the new currency -- with its rapidly slumping value. Physical euro notes already in circulation, however, would retain their value or even become much more prized.


It would most likely be necessary to close borders to stop Greeks smuggling out euros to stash in banks elsewhere. But with hundreds of miles to cover, much of it in inaccessible mountain, wood and scrubland, security forces would be stretched thin.


[...]



"An exit is technically feasible," said Lea at Control Risks. "But managerially, it is extremely difficult to do well. It requires a lot of planning and a lot of agreement. And given current circumstances, there is no chance of that."

A very realistic description of the nightmare that would ensue following a Grexit, do people think Greece will inflict this on themselves?

ArmaniJeanss

SupaNova wrote: »

I see the Greece and the euro hype is still in full swing, the decision is much the same as it was a year ago, unless Greece want to inflict mass chaos and poverty on their population they will remain in the euro.


A very realistic description of the nightmare that would ensue following a Grexit, do people think Greece will inflict this on themselves?

I'm sure the people of Greeece don't want this inflicted on themselves, but as yet there is no evidence that they are willing to do what is needed to prevent it. The opposite in fact, going by the results of ElectionOne.

Monty Burnz

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

If you are going to quote, quote all the statement as below

If I was hired to rob a bank I go to jail it woud be no good saying I was only an employee but if I commit white collar crime it's the Greeks fault.
Did you ever hear of the Nazi's.

I do not think I am out of my depth, but rather I can differceniate the smoke from the clouds. What Goldman Sachs did was wrong but it is only white collar crime and sure nobody was hurt ( just a lot of ordinary working class Greeks)


And do not ever again be so condesending to tell another poster that they are out of there depth just because you dislike there post as I think it was Willian Henry said
''Sir I totally disagree with what you said but I will defend to the death your right to say it.''

I may not have the quote totally right but that is the gist of it.

Um, I'm not saying you don't have the right to spout nonsense here, I'm just telling you that you are spouting nonsense. And I think you've slightly contradicted yourself by telling me 'never say X' and then giving us a quote supporting free speech...

The point is that GS did nothing criminal or even illegal - so there was no 'white collar crime' at all. Repeating the term and throwing in bizarre references to Nazis won't make it true.

SupaNova

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I'm sure the people of Greeece don't want this inflicted on themselves, but as yet there is no evidence that they are willing to do what is needed to prevent it. The opposite in fact, going by the results of ElectionOne.

With all the kicking and screaming, the choice is still two ****ty options, and even if the Greek public want a euro exit, in the end they may be just told its not possible. Time will tell.

Sponge Bob

By an large Greek Debt was a 1980s problem and the 2 massive spikes generally co incided with PASOK governments led by a Papandreu.



Source > http://www.economicsinpictures.com/2011/09/greek-debtgdp-only-22-in-1980.html

KINGVictor

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Goldman Sachs were hired to 'fiddle the books', to find a way around the Euro regulations. They did nothing wrong in that instance, but the Greek government crooks did, carrying out a fraud on the rest of the Eurozone.

For the sake of balancing the argument, I hope you know it wasnt just the Greeks that 'fiddled the books' to join the Euro.

And while Greece was commiting this 'fraud' presenting false data to meet the requirements of joining the Euro- what verification mechanism was put in place to ensure the credibility of their submission? Surely, the EU commission / the ECB or any relavant body should have been more dilligent in establishing the veracity of the metrics by which they judged a member state's entry into the Euro. Well unless they deliberately turned a blind eye and ignored the risk of a moral hazard occuring in the future.

I feel you are been disingenious in not accepting any form of culpability on the part of GS. They essentially conspired with the 'Greek government crooks' as you termed them in exchange for monetary benefits. You dont think they should be held accountable or share some of the blame?

Monty Burnz

KINGVictor wrote: »

For the sake of balancing the argument, I hope you know it wasnt just the Greeks that 'fiddled the books' to join the Euro.

Indeed, but pointing at others who get away without stuff isn't a valid defence.

KINGVictor wrote: »

And while Greece was commiting this 'fraud' presenting false data to meet the requirements of joining the Euro- what verification mechanism was put in place to ensure the credibility of their submission? Surely, the EU commission / the ECB or any relavant body should have been more dilligent in establishing the veracity of the metrics by which they judged a member state's entry into the Euro. Well unless they deliberately turned a blind eye and ignored the risk of a moral hazard occuring in the future.

They certainly should have never let Greece in, but then they would have been accused of anti-Greek bias - much as they are now.

KINGVictor wrote: »

I feel you are been disingenious in not accepting any form of culpability on the part of GS. They essentially conspired with the 'Greek government crooks' as you termed them in exchange for monetary benefits. You dont think they should be held accountable or share some of the blame?

Not at all. They were consulted on something and provided an answer. Nothing illegal happened. I'm not sure what you think GS should have done in their position?

Farmer Pudsey

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Not at all. They were consulted on something and provided an answer. Nothing illegal happened. I'm not sure what you think GS should have done in their position?

This is very good so if a bank robber consulted a bank staff member about a the alarm codes and maybe for plans of the bank and the times that the most cash was in the bank he have done nothing wrong. It all down to the lazy attitude about white collar crime. I sure GS knew why the crooked greeks as you called them wanted the information and they conspired with them to to allow them to fiddle the books

I may be wrong but did GS not arrange some of the loans for the greeks?????

KINGVictor

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Indeed, but pointing at others who get away without stuff isn't a valid defence.

I never said it was valid defence, I was merely pointing out the fact that the Greece was not the only country to present false data on the stipulated metrics in joining the Euro zone which I feel is an indictment on the EU as an establishment on how they dealt with allowing member nations entry into the EMU.




They certainly should have never let Greece in, but then they would have been accused of anti-Greek bias - much as they are now.

That is ridiculous and very subjective. Like you acknowledged above, they allowed other countries apart from Greece that knowingly provided distorted and false economic data into the EMU so it wasn’t a case of anti-Greek bias at all. Unless you are insinuating that they were avoiding accusations of anti- Italian or anti- French bias as well.




Not at all. They were consulted on something and provided an answer. Nothing illegal happened. I'm not sure what you think GS should have done in their position?


I am not following you here. So GS was consulted to provide some form of creative accounting in an attempt manipulate economic statistics in other to facilitate Greece's entry in to the EZ, a job they carried out proficiently and you don’t have a problem with it?

You know what I GS should have done? As a globally respected organisation that is supposed to have a clearly defined corporate governance structure, they should have presented the FACTS as it was and shouldn't have aided the ' corrupt Greek politicians'. The reality is they are just as corrupt as the politicians that paid for their services!

Monty Burnz

KINGVictor wrote: »

That is ridiculous and very subjective. Like you acknowledged above, they allowed other countries apart from Greece that knowingly provided distorted and false economic data into the EMU so it wasn’t a case of anti-Greek bias at all. Unless you are insinuating that they were avoiding accusations of anti- Italian or anti- French bias as well.

I'm suggesting that the Greeks would have accused the EU of anti-Greek bias if they did not let them join EMU.

KINGVictor wrote: »

You know what I GS should have done? As a globally respected organisation that is supposed to have a clearly defined corporate governance structure, they should have presented the FACTS as it was and shouldn't have aided the ' corrupt Greek politicians'. The reality is they are just as corrupt as the politicians that paid for their services!

Presented what facts to whom? Who was going to pay them for this?
They were hired to do some financial engineering, which they did. The Greeks should not have held the Olympics either as they could not afford it - should we attack the engineers who they hired to design the Olympic stadium?

Peanut

Monty Burnz wrote: »

The Greeks should not have held the Olympics either as they could not afford it - should we attack the engineers who they hired to design the Olympic stadium?

I think the point is that GS were knowing colluders in unethical activity. It seems unlikely that the same could be said of engineers working on a tendered project in good faith. Translated to a corporate environment, for example in the sense of an external audit, what GS (and Greece) did most likely would have been a criminal offence. Enron springs to mind.

At the end of the day, none of the Greek government, the Greek people, the EU, GS or whoever else can entirely wash their hands of the situation.

What GS did may have been legal at the time, but they can certainly be criticised for the ethics of their actions. This may help lead to increased governance in order to try to prevent a repeat occurrence, even on a smaller scale. (although a change of attitude would likely be more effective than changes in legislation...)

Greece-Goldman Sachs Deals Were 'Completely Scandalous' - And Perfectly Legal

Monty Burnz

Peanut wrote: »

What GS did may have been legal at the time, but they can certainly be criticised for the ethics of their actions. This may help lead to increased governance in order to try to prevent a repeat occurrence, even on a smaller scale. (although a change of attitude would likely be more effective than changes in legislation...)]

From your linked article:

Though Goldman Sachs has been widely criticized of late for a 2002 deal that helped Greece mask its debt, blaming the bank is something of a "red-ish herring," Wolf said. "Goldman didn't break the law. People knew what they were doing and it wasn't a big deal...it was allowed," Wolf said. "It's another indication of ways in which governments connived with the financial sector all over the world to do things they really shouldn't have allowed to happen."

GS weren't elected to run Greece. They are accountable to their shareholders.

creedp

Monty Burnz wrote: »

From your linked article:

GS weren't elected to run Greece. They are accountable to their shareholders.

So as long as what they did wasn't illegal we shouldn't critisize GS. I'm sure that's what the new shareholders in Facebook are saying re: the legal activities of GS and other similar organisation in conection with the Facebook IPO. Same with the auditors here with their financial engineering of the banks financial accounts prior to collapse of the sector .. what a truly non-accountable sector the high finance field is. Accontability to sharheolders is a nice theoretical argument that hasn't stood the test when it has come to serious collapses in the corporate world.

Monty Burnz

creedp wrote: »

So as long as what they did wasn't illegal we shouldn't critisize GS.

Criticize away, but don't for one second pretend that GS are to blame for Greece's predicament. They were the tool of a corrupt government working for a corrupt society.

KINGVictor

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Criticize away, but don't for one second pretend that GS are to blame for Greece's predicament. They were the tool of a corrupt government working for a corrupt society.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that GS is solely responsible for Greece's predicament but yes they are a contributory factor. Like you said they were used as a tool by the government to manipulate data so as to gain entry into the EZ. There is no need for semantics like financial engineering etc, they knowingly cooked the books on behalf of the Greek government, hence they should share some of the blame. Evading this fact is sloppy and hypocritical.

Their consultational role was not merely advisory in nature like that of KPMG? under Cowen's government in Ireland, in which case, the government had the choice to either accept or ignore their recommendations. The fact is GS was commissioned by the Greek government to distort economic data to meet the set requirements demanded by the European Commission.

You also have not convincingly addressed the issue that the EU had either failed to spot these inaccuracies presented by Greece and other member states OR they could have in fact ignored the long-term risks to satisfy their overriding desire for the European political project. Your assertion that they were trying to avoid the perception of an anti-Greek bias is unfounded and unacceptable. They could have sensibly gone ahead with just 7 or 8 countries and further enlarged as other countries met the stipulated requirements.

Wibbs

I'd simplify it down further. Why did the EU bods turn a blind eye when even a passing windowlicking eejit could tell Greece and Portugal and a couple of others were presenting... let's just say, tainted books? Not unlike the banks here during the boom. I know people who wanted daft loans, who handed in books that would pass the requirements for Ripley's believe it or not, who were then given said daft loans. Sure I apportion blame to the muppets chancing their arms, but I apportion more blame to those tasked with muppet spotting. Then again our banking section had one thing in common with the EU bods, they wanted it to be true. They wanted the dream to work out.

K-9

Wibbs wrote: »

I'd simplify it down further. Why did the EU bods turn a blind eye when even a passing windowlicking eejit could tell Greece and Portugal and a couple of others were presenting... let's just say, tainted books? Not unlike the banks here during the boom. I know people who wanted daft loans, who handed in books that would pass the requirements for Ripley's believe it or not, who were then given said daft loans. Sure I apportion blame to the muppets chancing their arms, but I apportion more blame to those tasked with muppet spotting. Then again our banking section had one thing in common with the EU bods, they wanted it to be true. They wanted the dream to work out.

As Gordon Brown put it "No more boom and bust".

Irish Aris

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Criticize away, but don't for one second pretend that GS are to blame for Greece's predicament. They were the tool of a corrupt government working for a corrupt society.

I'd say that after the Enron story, it's not very clear who's to blame and who's not. If I recall correctly, Arthur Andersen didn't really get out of it clean and it was a similar case of creative accounting. I think that was the main reason for Sarbanes-Oxley law. Maybe they should have imposed it to countries as well.

Greece's problem is 30 years old and it can't be solved in a year or two.
All this discussion is totally pointless. Maybe they should put us out of this misery and kick us out for good. Greece would still be in misery but at least it would be its own. Anyway, there is no way they are going to get all the loaned money back and I can't really understand why they keep lending us money.

Monty Burnz, I understand your point but, as I said before, my perspective is different.
The way you argue at some points is as if all 10 million of Greeks are to blame, which is not the case. To me it's just a generalisation that many use to prove that "all Greeks are bad and they deserve the worst". And I don't accept that.

golden lane

all greeks are human........that is the cause of any problem......

Monty Burnz

Irish Aris wrote: »

The way you argue at some points is as if all 10 million of Greeks are to blame, which is not the case. To me it's just a generalisation that many use to prove that "all Greeks are bad and they deserve the worst". And I don't accept that.

I'm saying that Greek society caused the problem - obviously, you can't blame babies or whatever. But the culture of corruption seems to run through the society from top to bottom.

Farmer Pudsey

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'm saying that Greek society caused the problem - obviously, you can't blame babies or whatever. But the culture of corruption seems to run through the society from top to bottom.

Hmmm. Reminds me of something, ah yes

Same as Ireland

Monty Burnz

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Hmmm. Reminds me of something, ah yes

Same as Ireland

Yes, but I'd say we are not quite in the same league.

Farmer Pudsey

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Yes, but I'd say we are not quite in the same league.

Kettle calling the pot black........... or blacker in this instance :cool:

Monty Burnz

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Kettle calling the pot black........... or blacker in this instance :cool:

I think you'll find I made that point on this thread a couple of dozen posts back...

Irish Aris

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Irish Aris, what are the chances of a military coup?

not very big now. . .

Monty Burnz

More populist nonsense from Greece's political 'leadership':

Political parties in Greece have criticised IMF head Christine Lagarde for suggesting that Greeks were avoiding paying taxes.

Socialist leader Evangelos Venizelos accused Ms Lagarde of "insulting the Greek people".

Left-wing leader Alexis Tsipras insisted: "Greek workers pay their taxes, which are unbearable."

In her interview with the UK's Guardian newspaper, Ms Lagarde suggested it was payback time for Greece.

She said she was more concerned about poverty-stricken children in sub-Saharan Africa than Greeks hit by the economic crisis.

Greece has promised to implement tough austerity measures in return for a multi-billion euro EU-IMF bailout. But the deal is under threat following inconclusive elections in May.

After thousands of angry messages were posted on her Facebook page, the head of the International Monetary Fund wrote that she was "very sympathetic to the Greek people and the challenges they are facing".

"That's why the IMF is supporting Greece in its endeavour to overcome the current crisis," she said.

Mr Venizelos told an election rally that he welcomed Ms Lagarde's Facebook message, but added: "Nobody can humiliate the Greek people during the crisis.

"I say this today addressing specifically Ms Lagarde... who with her stance insulted the Greek people," he said.

Alexis Tsipras's Syriza party opposes the tough conditions for the bailout
Mr Tsipras, whose Syriza party is one of the two main contenders for the 17 June election, said: "The last thing we seek in Greece is her sympathy. Greek workers pay their taxes, which are unbearable.

Tax evasion is an epidemic in Greece. Rather than face the fact, they trot out some rhetorical bullsh!t that they imagine the voters want to hear (and perhaps they do?). They need to grow up really soon.

swampgas

Monty Burnz wrote: »

More populist nonsense from Greece's political 'leadership':


Tax evasion is an epidemic in Greece. Rather than face the fact, they trot out some rhetorical bullsh!t that they imagine the voters want to hear (and perhaps they do?). They need to grow up really soon.

It's not surprising really - it's human nature to resent having to ask for help, and unfortunately those that do the helping often get little thanks for their trouble.

What was so insulting to the Greek people was being reminded that their country has an embarrassingly awful tax collection system. Christine Lagarde touched a raw nerve, I think, which may or may not have been deliberate.

There is an element of the same thing in Ireland - there is a resentment in some quarters towards the EU, and especially towards Germany, because of a feeling of shame at having to be bailed out by them.

Well, it's tough luck for the Greeks and tough luck for us - if we don't like being the poor relation we have only ourselves to blame for it.

KINGVictor

Monty Burnz wrote: »

More populist nonsense from Greece's political 'leadership':


Tax evasion is an epidemic in Greece. Rather than face the fact, they trot out some rhetorical bullsh!t that they imagine the voters want to hear (and perhaps they do?). They need to grow up really soon.

I disagree with you. What Largarde said in the Guardian interview was harsh,quite misleading and counter productive. She made an insane generalisation by depicting Greeks as serial tax evaders and an even worse extrapolation by stating that this is the reason why Greece is facing economic hardship.

Her comments were very incendiary and as the head of the IMF, she should have chosen her words more carefully. It is a fact that Greece has a huge problem with tax collection, pension age limits, competitveness and the lack of innovativeness. But we all know this because they are currently in the spotlight. Countries in southern Europe and some core EZ have similar problems.

She carelessly said:

"Do you know what? As far as Athens is concerned, I also think about all those people who are trying to escape tax all the time. All these people in Greece who are trying to escape tax." She says she thinks "equally" about Greeks deprived of public services and Greek citizens not paying their tax. "I think they should also help themselves collectively." Asked how, she replies: "By all paying their tax."


Very sloppy, condescending and simplistic! The problem in Greece is beyond tax payment! The country is being choked up by a senseless economic model. Like you would know, when an economy finds itself in a position like Greece or indeed Ireland and the IMF is forced to intervene, one of the basic element of reconstruction is the devaluation the nation's currency to increase demands for its exports and improve the level of competitiveness. No EZ country can afford of that option because they belong to a MONETARY UNION!!

Like I have said in previous exchanges with you, Europe either did not envisage these problems or they simply turned a blind eye. It is inconceivable that some parts of Europe are performing extraordinarily well in a recessionary environment while others are wallowing in stagnation, putting up their children for adoption, commiting suicide and rummaging bins to feed.

Greece has some serious institutional problems but so does Ireland, Italy, Spain, Cyprus, Portugal etc. Its counter-productive, haughty and pretentious to keep referring to Greece as an outlier and making ridiculous comments such as - " oh we are not as bad as them" OR " the only commonality between the Greeks and us is Feta chesse"- petty and ridiculous.

Monty Burnz

KINGVictor wrote: »

I disagree with you. What Largarde said in the Guardian interview was harsh,quite misleading and counter productive. She made an insane generalisation by depicting Greeks as serial tax evaders and an even worse extrapolation by stating that this is the reason why Greece is facing economic hardship.

You did read the Vanity Fair article I posted a while back, right?

Sponge Bob

KINGVictor wrote: »

She made an insane generalisation by depicting Greeks as serial tax evaders and an even worse extrapolation by stating that this is the reason why Greece is facing economic hardship.

Eh, that is true and therefore not "insane" as you put it. The entire Greek problem is a result of borrowing in the knowledge that the tax base to service those debts was non existent. Mainly because of endemic corruption and incompetence.

You OBVIOUSLY haven't read the thread.

IN Greece in 2010 or so

25,000 persons declared €100k+ incomes and 160,000 over €50k inc the over 100ks

In Ireland in 2006 ..I know it dropped a lot since.


180,000 persons declared €100k+ incomes and 413,000 over €50k inc the over 100ks

Consequently the Greeks were reduced to searching for swimming pools on Google Earth and taxing them as a proxy for undeclared income.

starlit

High time but looks like Ireland could be following in its footsteps before long!

Sponge Bob

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Eh, that is true and therefore not "insane" as you put it. The entire Greek problem is a result of borrowing in the knowledge that the tax base to service those debts was non existent. Mainly because of endemic corruption and incompetence.

You OBVIOUSLY haven't read the thread.

IN Greece in 2010 or so

25,000 persons declared €100k+ incomes and 160,000 over €50k inc the over 100ks

In Ireland in 2006 ..I know it dropped a lot since.


180,000 persons declared €100k+ incomes and 413,000 over €50k inc the over 100ks


Consequently the Greeks were reduced to searching for swimming pools on Google Earth and taxing them as a proxy for undeclared income.

wow didnt know this, and they have twice the population we have! Their tax base must be a fraction of the size it should be!

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

wow didnt know this, and they have twice the population we have! Their tax base must be a fraction of the size it should be!

Hey now, stop insulting the Greek people

Wibbs

Indeed, but in fairness their successive governments did feck all to curb such a dodgy tax evasion culture. Ireland is considered pretty good on that front, but I don't doubt for a minute that if it wasn't many many Irish people wouldn't be so quick to ante up. If tomorrow it was announced that Gardai would stop spot checks for car tax, I'd guarantee the tax take would drop off. If it continued and it became a given in the culture the tax take would likely plummet. Human nature being what it is and all that. Governments and laws among other things should act as a brake against human nature. The Greek people for a very long time had far fewer brakes.

Monty Burnz

Wibbs wrote: »

The Greek people for a very long time had far fewer brakes.

At the same time, the Greek people voted in the very people who facilitated this virtually voluntary tax system.

beeftotheheels

Monty Burnz wrote: »

At the same time, the Greek people voted in the very people who facilitated this virtually voluntary tax system.

I think we need also to put her comments in context. At election time it is traditional in Greece for the tax collectors to ease off (presumably under the instruction of the incumbent Government).

This extended election period means that by the time Greece has a Government they will be further behind on their tax collection for the year to date, and her comments were made as these numbers were being released.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite2_1_21/05/2012_443145

Monty Burnz

beeftotheheels wrote: »

I think we need also to put her comments in context. At election time it is traditional in Greece for the tax collectors to ease off (presumably under the instruction of the incumbent Government).

Indeed, the practice of taking taxpayers 'off the streets' is remarked upon in the Vanity Fair article. Astonishing stuff.

Peanut

Caretaker government says they will be collecting tax

Finance Minister Giorgios Zanias ... Greece can’t allow any relaxation of tax-collection efforts during the country’s pre-election period, a time when revenue traditionally drops, he said.

Although, "Public revenue dropped 15 percent in the first 10 days of May compared with the same period of 2011", there isn't an indication as to how much, if any, of this is due to a fall-off in enforcement.

beeftotheheels

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/d4d17e82-aa57-11e1-899d-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1w3n6SqoG

Now major insurers are refusing to insure import shipments to Greece. While the people of Greece go about having their democratic say in things, the wheels of commerce turn to continue making it more, and more difficult, for the Greek situation to be rescued.

A timely reminder that democratic choices (including the choice to defer making a decision) have commercial consequences.

AVN_1

Tora Bora wrote: »

I get confused when I hear the Greeks, cooked the books, and lied their way into the Euro club.
Surely, there should have been elegibility rules, which there was.
And surely, there should have been some sort of independent verification by the ECB, of the books of all would be members, BEFORE, granting full membership status.
Seems like more ineptitude on behalf of the Eurocrats, if you ask me.

German masters pushed the Greeks to cook the books

Monty Burnz

AVN_1 wrote: »

German masters pushed the Greeks to cook the books

Poppycock.

McDave

AVN_1 wrote: »

German masters pushed the Greeks to cook the books

You're joking, right?

Damian_ir

I don't think so.


Again, in regards to the special defense needs of Greece, i would like to post that in a few days French president will have a meeting with Greek politicians about new French-maiden Fremm frigates deal !!



Aegean sea and eastern mediterrenean sea smells oil and gas and this is not irrelevant to these news.

On top of that, since for the moment there is a consumables-parts problem with 3rd generation fighters, Greece decided to keep for another 3 years the "Short Little Ugly F....s "(a.k.a A-7H Corsair II) ... fighter-bombers . In the same time tries to find in the international market additional number of used French-maiden Mirage 2000-5 whilst Turkey waits for collecting 100 new state of the art F-35 lightning II and plans in a few years to build a Turkish-maiden ... air-carrier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwpeSFNTAlg

Course 090

No matter how many people will commit suicide due to financial crisis(4.000 people at the moment), no matter what year it is, people at this part of Europe will know very well to use weapons. This is our fate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vLO2ekm4Bk

Damian_ir

My previous post will display its essence as time progress, while Turkish riot escalates.

There are at least 3 Turkeyes inside Turkey. One of them is Turkey of the generals that will try to export Turkey's crisis to the Aegean sea... or to Cyprus.

Damian_ir

On top of that, an other phenomenon in regards to the economic crisis in Greece:

Most of the boats get into the country again via Turkey.


Footage in English

Greece has become the last 15 years a people-warehouse(As a result of the Dublin treaty). These poople has one purpose and that is to move to the western and northern European countries to start working and start over their life.