Time to burn Greece?

Maura74

lmimmfn wrote: »

2.50euro or 3.88euro an hour for working on average a 180hour month when the prices are basically the same as in ireland for shopping/food/drink/taxis/public transport, petrol is even more expensive than ireland? how the hell can you live on just over 100euro a week, pay for mortgage, transport to/from work, lunch, shopping and bills on that? Its not like being on the dole where you dont incur most of those costs and have the possibility of rent allowance etc.

Lets not forget that most of the austerity measures impact the private sector mainly while the public sector still enjoys early retirement possibilities along with nice pensions and job security.

On reflection looking at your figures it is not enough it should read 450 a week that would be more like it, especially parents with young family.
Is there no extra help with mortgages or rents, not sure if Greece would need help with heating, but maybe with other priority outgoings.

I still say that the people at the top of the pecking order should have more cuts first and then for the cuts to trickle down to the bottom, then would not be so horrible for the people at the bottom of the pecking order.

meglome

lmimmfn wrote: »

2.50euro or 3.88euro an hour for working on average a 180hour month when the prices are basically the same as in ireland for shopping/food/drink/taxis/public transport, petrol is even more expensive than ireland? how the hell can you live on just over 100euro a week, pay for mortgage, transport to/from work, lunch, shopping and bills on that? Its not like being on the dole where you dont incur most of those costs and have the possibility of rent allowance etc.

Where are you getting the figures from?

djpbarry

lmimmfn wrote: »

2.50euro or 3.88euro an hour for working on average a 180hour month when the prices are basically the same as in ireland for shopping/food/drink/taxis/public transport, petrol is even more expensive than ireland?

If there’s one thing I’ve learned over the last few years, it’s to take any figures emerging from Greece with a hefty dose of salty scepticism.

lmimmfn wrote: »

Lets not forget that most of the austerity measures impact the private sector mainly...

Greece has a private sector?

Tazz T

When I lived there most of the people I knew were on €1 a hour. Having said that none of them paid tax.

The only thing that can save Greece from complete economic and social collapse is a default. Another bailout will just stretch things out. But I bet the politicians make an agreement at the last minute. That's their way.

With a default they have no choice but to put their house in order.

Damian_ir

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsBjUDZ2xsI

atila

The recent performance of Portugeese debt suggests that there is a firewall between Greece on the one hand and other debt pressured Eurozone countries.

The conditions are lining up to make it the obvious course of action to see Greece default. The political calculus is very interesting and there can be no doubt that this 325M is being used as some sort of smokescreen for other agendas. No way on earth would the Eurozone risk financial shockwaves for the sake of 325M unless there were bigger issues at stake.

McDave

atila wrote: »

The recent performance of Portugeese debt suggests that there is a firewall between Greece on the one hand and other debt pressured Eurozone countries.

The conditions are lining up to make it the obvious course of action to see Greece default. The political calculus is very interesting and there can be no doubt that this 325M is being used as some sort of smokescreen for other agendas. No way on earth would the Eurozone risk financial shockwaves for the sake of 325M unless there were bigger issues at stake.

I think you may be right.

The EZ is hanging tough alright. €325m is small fry in the grander scheme of things. The fact that the Greeks would attempt to cavil over it is to me indicative of their underlying lack of seriousness.

I don't think the Greeks were thinking that the troika would come back at them so hard. Indeed by giving the EZ such grounds to doubt Greek intent, the delay has given the EZ some space to consider actually cutting Greece loose.

Sponge Bob

The last €325m mainly came from the military budget and they are afraid of their military for rather well founded reasons given their dismal record for interfering in politics and the death toll in the post WW2 Civil War alone.

The problem is collectibility.

IN Greece in 2010 or so

25,000 persons declared €100k+ incomes and 160,000 over €50k inc the over 100ks

In Ireland in 2006 ..I know it dropped a lot since.


180,000 persons declared €100k+ incomes and 413,000 over €50k inc the over 100ks

Consequently the Greeks were reduced to searching for swimming pools on Google Earth and taxing them as a proxy for undeclared income. There is a story doing the rounds about Porsche Cayennes, complete BS that one.

However when they looked.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,709703,00.html

Tracking Down Swimming Pools

His staff have become very creative when it comes to tracking down tax offenders: They use police helicopters to fly over Athens' affluent suburbs and make films of homes owned by doctors, lawyers and businesspeople. They use satellite pictures by Google Earth to locate country villas, swimming pools and properties. And these tactics have revealed that the suburbs didn't have 324 swimming pools, as was reported, but rather 16,974.

Tax fraud investigators spent a number of weeks on nightclub parking lots in Athens and noted down the registration numbers of luxury sedans. Their investigation revealed that approximately 6,000 car owners have vehicles worth €100,000, but only reported to the tax authorities that they have an annual income of €10,000.

Sand

The ECB has been trying to force fiscal transfers (and thus political union) over the past few years, and the core having been attemtping to avoid any fiscal entanglement with the periphery. The game plan of allowing Greece to default and sweeping up the mess was dismissed in 2010, but as the "Extend and pretend" gameplan has been proven to lack either measurable objective success or increasingly political support, it has come back to the fore.

Default is inevitable for Greece. It simply cannot grow fast enough. The periphery do not want the core meddling in their internal affairs. The core does not want the hassle of meddling in the peripheries internal affairs.

The Greeks might get another bit of cash this week to stagger on in a daze for another few weeks or months but its going to default. It should have been recognised and dealt with upfront - it wasnt, and instead the problem was made worse and worse by the extend and pretend plan.

When Greece defaults it will be interesting to see if Greeces economic problems will then be explained by the default, rather than the default being explained by Greek economic collapse.

There is a lesson here for Ireland - our "manageable" debt load is also being put together under the guidance of the same brain trust that took the Greek problem and turned it into a global problem.

jank

What I have been hearing and reading about this situation is that the EU want Greece out of the euro and to default along with it. All this is just a side show to let the world "think" that they are doing the best they can to help Greece. It also gives the ECB a chance to shore up banks with liquidity that will be affected as a result of a default. It just remains to be seen has the market already priced in this default and by how much.

In a way Greece is done, we need to be looking over our shoulder though!

Damian_ir

Turkey will buy 100 stealth f-35 lightening II fighters.

http://www.todayszaman.com/newsDetail_getNewsById.action?newsId=239067

Do you think that the greeks are still paranoid about national security ?

These fighters are meant to be used to help Turkey to gain power for winning half of the Aegean sea where Greece's wealth is ...

Καστελόριζο(Kastelorizo) or Μεγίστη (Megisti) is a tiny small island that the Turks violate its air-space constantly(f-16s and f-4 phantom II terminators) and is a key-island of the Greek borders acording to the international law in regards of the sea borders. They will try to invade to this or an other island of eastern Greece in order to drill the gas-oil of the sea-ground that is soaking with greek blood.



This is why Greece spents much money on military structures and military weapons.

Video in Turkish

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZSJEn2MYuE

murphaph

Maybe Greece can't actually afford to defend such a disperse group of islands. I certainly am not comfortable that so much EU taxpayers' money is going on the Greek military. If Turkey invades Greece (economic suicide for Turkey-an EU wide trade embargo would cripple them), the EU should step in, but should not fund the Greek military directly.

Greece, like Ireland, can't afford its military it would seem. The difference is that at least in Ireland, we accept it and have consequently tiny armed forces.

If Greeks want to spend their own money on a strong military then fine, but their not spending their own money right now.

srsly78

Turkey has a population over 6 times that of Greece, and a much bigger (and thriving economy). So of course they appear threatening. It would be like Ireland trying to stop a British invasion (not possible, but the ensuing guerilla war would be hell).

And just like Ireland vs UK, Greece vs Turkey is not gonna happen. Turkey would have the smackdown laid on them so fast by the rest of Nato! How good will all that american gear be without american support? Not very...

So Damian, stop trying to blame other countries for Greece's problems. You can't blame ze Germanz, or ze Turks. It's your own fault for being so corrupt as a nation that you make the Irish look like paragons of prudence.

The solution is to pay your own damn taxes and stop living off ours.

djpbarry

Damian_ir wrote: »

They will try to invade to this or an other island of eastern Greece...

Apart from anything else, Turkey wants into the EU. Invading an EU state is hardly going to look good on their application.

Damian_ir

djpbarry wrote: »

Apart from anything else, Turkey wants into the EU. Invading an EU state is hardly going to look good on their application.

Do you think (1 in a million) that Berlin and Paris will open the door of EU to ... Turkey(population ... ) ?

Most of the Turks don't believe it, that is why Turkey plays the new-othoman card and the natural resources card. In many cases Turkey was so close with Tehran...

In regards to the new-othoman card of Turkey, i have to advise you to search in the net about the new Turkish Naval Base in Albania(Adriatic Sea-Northwest greek borders) and about the new Turkish Naval Base in Libya(southwest greek borders).

I shall not talk about east because there ... i can describe untill next year.

djpbarry

Damian_ir wrote: »

Do you think (1 in a million) that Berlin and Paris will open the door of EU to ... Turkey(population ... ) ?

Not the point - Turkey is officially recognised as a candidate country by the EU, along with Iceland, Macedonia and Montenegro. There is absolutely no way Turkey is going to jeopardise this by invading Greece. It's just completely ridiculous.

srsly78

Nevermind what happens when a Nato member state gets attacked (even by another member).

Icepick

There is no way Turkey is invading Greece. Among other things, 60% of Turkish exports go to the EU, as well as billions of FDI flowing both ways.

Damian_ir is spreading paranoia, which the army uses to justify its bloated budget and the politicians use to scare and rally voters.

BTW, your link says that the purchase of fighters was actually put on hold.

Damian_ir

Icepick wrote: »

BTW, your link says that the purchase of fighters was actually put on hold.

Sorry about that. I will post an other more recent in couple of days.




I hope i don't see a red card by posting the following, as it is a simple way to explain to other people around the world about the situation in Greece and the dangerous future.

In a few cases i am 100% sure that you will disagree.

Eitherway, this is an opinion of an individual pesonality of Greece and shows you what is his view about life in Greece an it's future.

Sorry in advance for the huge .... mesage .



<mod snip>

MY EYES!!!!

Please leave the epic rage comics for the Cool Pics and Vids forum, the Politics Cafe, or your blog. This is not the place.

Lantus

we wont need to burn greece. The people are already unsettled and will do the job for us. Greece could be the first modern country in our history to have it's own revolution.

Damian_ir

Icepick wrote: »

BTW, your link says that the purchase of fighters was actually put on hold.

There you are.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/153077#.T0hIyl86K00

Source is from a country that is in our neighbourhood .

McDave

Damian_ir wrote: »

Sorry about that. I will post an other more recent in couple of days.




I hope i don't see a red card by posting the following, as it is a simple way to explain to other people around the world about the situation in Greece and the dangerous future.

In a few cases i am 100% sure that you will disagree.

Eitherway, this is an opinion of an individual pesonality of Greece and shows you what is his view about life in Greece an it's future.

In my case, no sale I'm afraid.

Greece has been so far off the pace for so long. It's economy is a crock. Its administrative system is not fit for purpose. It's political system seems broken practically beyond repair.

The problems are awful, but they're essentially Greece's to solve. Despite that and all the emotive stuff about banks, the EZ is orchestrating a writedown for private bondholders that will go a significant distance in reducing Greece's burden. The troika is (necessarily) imposing a programme of debt reduction to get Greek debt down out of the stratosphere. Funny how Greece hasn't been able to deal with any of these problems in their own right.

As for Greek voters being lied too, I'm sure plenty of them know exactly what they were doing when they voted for PASOK public service jobs for the boys. It's too much to expect people to believe that Greek voters are helpless innocents as concerns the debacle their country has become.

murphaph

McDave wrote: »

As for Greek voters being lied too, I'm sure plenty of them know exactly what they were doing when they voted for PASOK public service jobs for the boys. It's too much to expect people to believe that Greek voters are helpless innocents as concerns the debacle their country has become.

Indeed. It's no different from Ireland. A majority of voters gave FF first preferences and enough transfers to ensure they continued to get re-elected while they were doing a (scaled down) version of what successive Greek governments were doing.

People have a vote and CAN change how politics works. In a democracy, even a non-ideal one (none are ideal), the people (as a whole, not talking about individuals) cannot be absolved of the blame for what their elected government does, especially when the people re-elect the same government, knowing that government's policies.

In a dictatorship where people cannot vote and cannot enter politics themselves and live under an iron fist, then they are not responsible. Greek and Irish people who try to claim that "it was all the government's fault, they made us do it" is a real kick in the teeth to people who actually live under real dictatorships where they genuinely can't have any influence on what direction their country takes.

The Irish, like the Greeks, were all too happy to elect parties that increased public sector jobs and pay, increased welfare, decreased taxes and never questioned where the money was coming from, or obviously didn't question hard enough.

Sand

@murphaph

People have a vote and CAN change how politics works.

With the Greens and Fianna Fail being put to the sword last time out, can you point out exactly what changed in how politics works in Ireland?

djpbarry

Sand wrote: »

With the Greens and Fianna Fail being put to the sword last time out, can you point out exactly what changed in how politics works in Ireland?

Who said anything had?

Dannyboy83

murphaph wrote: »

The Irish, like the Greeks, were all too happy to elect parties that increased public sector jobs and pay, increased welfare, decreased taxes and never questioned where the money was coming from, or obviously didn't question hard enough.

But it's the actual system that's broken, isn't it?
Is there any parliamentary democracy like ours, where the system actually functions correctly?

Those which seem to function correctly are not so similar e.g. Germany

The closest to us is the British system and they made the same mistakes through Labour, they would be in the same mess only that they can try to inflate their way out of debt, driving their own citizens into penury.
That's as much a pattern over there as Fianna Fail extinguishing our economy every generation.
Had they been in the Eurozone, they would have collapsed it.

Based on what I've read, the story in Greece is very similar to Spain, to Ireland and to a lesser extent, to the UK, to Italy.

What separates countries like Germany/Sweden from countries like Ireland/UK/Spain so dramatically?

murphaph

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

What separates countries like Germany/Sweden from countries like Ireland/UK/Spain so dramatically?

The mentality of the people is different tbh. Our PRSTV system has a lot to answer for, but that system can be changed. If enough people wanted it changed, it would be changed.

@Sand: so far nothing has changed really. Until people engage with politics and (heaven forbid) write the odd letter to a TD concerning electoral reform, nothing will change. Engaging in politics is much more than merely voting. Politicians aren't mind readers, and a chat at the doorstep once every 4 or 5 years doesn't cut it. People need to say to their TDs "hey, I'm not happy about PRSTV (or whatever). I'd like x, y or z instead".

People (not you) rant and rave about marching here, there and everywhere, but don't start with simply communicating their wishes to their TDs.

djpbarry

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Those which seem to function correctly are not so similar e.g. Germany

The closest to us is the British system...

I wouldn't really agree with that. British politics is quite different to Irish politics. And apart from anything else, the UK does not use proportional representation. Germany does.

In Ireland's case, I don't think the problem is the system. The problem is how that system is put into practice.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Based on what I've read, the story in Greece is very similar to Spain, to Ireland and to a lesser extent, to the UK, to Italy.

I think you're grossly over-simplifying things. While you could absolutely say that the book-keeping of recent governments in those countries has been poor (to say the least), on a societal level, Ireland, the UK and Greece (for example) are quite different. Greece is (it seems) rabidly left-wing, the UK has a sizeable right-wing extremist element, while Ireland is decidedly centrist.

murphaph wrote: »

People need to say to their TDs "hey, I'm not happy about PRSTV (or whatever). I'd like x, y or z instead".

I really doubt that the average voter in Ireland could explain the PRSTV system.

Dannyboy83

djpbarry wrote: »

I think you're grossly over-simplifying things. While you could absolutely say that the book-keeping of recent governments in those countries has been poor (to say the least), on a societal level, Ireland, the UK and Greece (for example) are quite different. Greece is (it seems) rabidly left-wing, the UK has a sizeable right-wing extremist element, while Ireland is decidedly centrist.

What I mean was that many of the symptoms were the same.

Pasok is the Greek equivalent of Fianna Fail.
"I'm Pasok, I'd prefer to die than vote another one"!
Greece have their own brand of civil war politics.
I cannot remember the Spanish equivalents but the same seems to apply.

I've read Spanish accounts of the crisis, and the only thing you would need to change would be the names of the political parties and you could be talking about Ireland.
Property bubbles, heavy borrowing, tax evasion etc.

Perhaps I'm wrong about that, it seems to be the case tho.



Do you think the mentality creates the system or the system creates the mentality?

For example, there is a funny section in "Inside the Third Rech" by Albert Speer, Pg 255

On the other hand, the air raids had shown tha t life could continue on an orderly basis in the severely affected cities. Tax revenues for instance went on being paid even after bombs falling on Treasury offices had destroyed the documents. Taking my cue directly from the principle of seH-responsibility in industry, I formulated a program which would substitute trust for distrust toward the populace and allow us to t r im (our supervisory and administrative agencies, which alone employed nearly three million persons. We considered ways in which the taxpayers could be made responsible for their own declarations, or the feasibility of not reassessing liability a t all, or for withholding taxes from the payrolls. Given the billions being spent on the war every month, Goebbels and I argued, what did i t matter i f a few hundred millions were lost to the government due to the dishonesty of some individuals.

Contrast that with modern day Greece, lol

http://www.cnbc.com/id/46312376/Greece_Keeps_Promising_Reform_but_Few_Believe_It
The shadow economy still accounts for more than a quarter of the 220-billion-euro official output — the highest proportion in the euro zone. Annual tax evasion stands at 40 billion to 45 billion euros, said Nikos Lekkas, the number two official in Greece's Financial and Economic Crime unit.

I really doubt that the average voter in Ireland could explain the PRSTV system.

I agree.
In my experience, most people know absolutely nothing about politics.
Those who do know something generally tend to take a line they are fed, such as public servants taking a union line and so on.

But I imagine it's the same in Germany?
Based on my experiences, it is.

So what causes the difference?
People in Sweden and Germany pay for more tax than in Ireland and Greece, and they wilfully pay it.

I've written about my opinion on Sweden vs Ireland before here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75598314&postcount=21

maninasia

Well written, mentality, such as culture and values, are more important than the actual democratic system put in place.
A system is only as good the people that operate it and operate in it. If too many are lazy, incompetent, unknowledgeable, greedy or malicious the system will not function well. The checks and balances will not function.

It's very hard for the average individual to put up their hand and admit their ignorance of economics or politics or how things happened.

Damian_ir

In regards to the military aspect of Greece's defence needs , there is a new update .

Recently Turkish general , one of the heads of the the Turkish forces, announced that they are going to construct a small aircarrier similar to the ones that Italy and Spain posses , that supports F-35s and their new domestic assault choppers . They need it in order to support their demands against Greece's rights for oil drilling in the Aegean Sea.

These are a few photographs that was recently taken during Turkish army operations against Kurds rebels-terorists (depends of the angle that you come across the Kurdistan Issue).

I believe it shows everyone what are the dangerous situations that Greece has to put up with in case of a Turkish invasion, like the one in Cyprus of 1974.


MAJOR WARNING BEFORE YOU CLICK HERE. EXTREMELY BAD SIGHT . Yet it is a common sight for people that lives and learns his fate in the Balcans.
http://www.onalert.gr/default.php?pname=Article&catid=2&art_id=12940

Fortunately Cyprus which also posses oil areas inside its sea-borders found a way to support its interests(against Turkey) by accepting an alliance with Israel . Of course Turkey posses one of the most ambitious weapons industry in the world and everyone in the southeastern Europe and middle east is aware of that. Balance on that sector constantly changes.



ps:

While you enter in one of Trinity College's library rooms, you see tens head-statues of famous historical personalities among thousands of books.
One of these statues(I believe it is first or second when you enter that room) shows a man with a wide(platy) forehead. He once said ...
Every war(violent or economic) is contacted because of money .
Plato

Scofflaw

Damian_ir, that's not really relevant to the thread.

moderately,
Scofflaw

meglome

maninasia wrote: »

Well written, mentality, such as culture and values, are more important than the actual democratic system put in place.
A system is only as good the people that operate it and operate in it. If too many are lazy, incompetent, unknowledgeable, greedy or malicious the system will not function well. The checks and balances will not function.

It's very hard for the average individual to put up their hand and admit their ignorance of economics or politics or how things happened.

I keep seeing people demanding more direct democracy, Swiss style. I keep trying to point out it works in Switzerland because of the Swiss. The Swiss who just voted to not have an extra two weeks holidays each year.

_Kaiser_

murphaph wrote: »

@Sand: so far nothing has changed really. Until people engage with politics and (heaven forbid) write the odd letter to a TD concerning electoral reform, nothing will change. Engaging in politics is much more than merely voting. Politicians aren't mind readers, and a chat at the doorstep once every 4 or 5 years doesn't cut it. People need to say to their TDs "hey, I'm not happy about PRSTV (or whatever). I'd like x, y or z instead".

People (not you) rant and rave about marching here, there and everywhere, but don't start with simply communicating their wishes to their TDs.

Well (to use a recent Boards example), take the recent campaign against Sean Sherlock's new internet legislation. People engaged, wrote their TDs and so on - only to be fobbed off with generic auto-replies (and poorly written, and spelled, ones at that!) and in the end he signed it through anyway.

The problem is politicians in this country face no personal consequences, regardless of what they do. If they misbehave they get a slap on the wrist (if even that), and sure you can say "well you can choose not to vote for them at the next election" but how well does THAT work either?

Take FF - sure they got decimated but most of the top echelon took their fat pensions that they will get now and for the rest of their lives (20-40 years maybe?) despite what happened to the country under their watch! Sure Bertie has made a nice retirement out of lecturing others on how to replicate the Irish Miracle that was the Celtic Tiger years :rolleyes:

Why WOULD they do anything beyond serving their own interests? And who's going to change that? - it'd be like asking Turkeys to vote for Christmas.

"Democracy" (at least the Irish version) just doesn't work!

Damian_ir

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Well (to use a recent Boards example), take the recent campaign against Sean Sherlock's new internet legislation. People engaged, wrote their TDs and so on - only to be fobbed off with generic auto-replies (and poorly written, and spelled, ones at that!) and in the end he signed it through anyway.

The problem is politicians in this country face no personal consequences, regardless of what they do. If they misbehave they get a slap on the wrist (if even that), and sure you can say "well you can choose not to vote for them at the next election" but how well does THAT work either?

Take FF - sure they got decimated but most of the top echelon took their fat pensions that they will get now and for the rest of their lives (20-40 years maybe?) despite what happened to the country under their watch! Sure Bertie has made a nice retirement out of lecturing others on how to replicate the Irish Miracle that was the Celtic Tiger years :rolleyes:

Why WOULD they do anything beyond serving their own interests? And who's going to change that? - it'd be like asking Turkeys to vote for Christmas.

"Democracy" (at least the Irish version) just doesn't work!

I agree with every word. This could have been a conversation between two mates in a cafe or a bar in Greece, in regards to the puppets of Athens.

djpbarry

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Well (to use a recent Boards example), take the recent campaign against Sean Sherlock's new internet legislation. People engaged, wrote their TDs and so on - only to be fobbed off with generic auto-replies (and poorly written, and spelled, ones at that!) and in the end he signed it through anyway.

If people really were "enraged", I think they would have done more than send emails.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Why WOULD they do anything beyond serving their own interests? And who's going to change that?

The electorate. If people keep voting in the likes of Lowry, there is no incentive for TD's to clean up their act. Accountability won't come about until the electorate demands it.

Sponge Bob

(NOT the other way around)

http://www.athensnews.gr/portal/1/54679

Iran has blocked oil sales to two Greek companies, Hellenic Petroleum (Elpe) and Motor Oil Hellas, after they failed to make payments, Iranian state television reported on Thursday.

English-language Press TV reported that the two companies, the country's largest refineries, were barred from purchasing Iranian crude after they defaulted on their orders

I think Greece was Irans largest customer in Europe.

Voodoo_rasher

murphaph wrote: »

Should we expect the Italians to retake Abysinnia any time soon? Or should we in the RoI be fearful of the bould Brits retaking their former possession? :eek:

Turkey has no intention of invading any EU member state.

ever heard of gradual colonising? *sniff*

Peanut


Quote:
Originally Posted by Voodoo_rasher View Post
Who's ruling Tur right now? But an Islamicist party!
Peanut: "Who wouldda thunk it !

I can still buy alcohol at 2am on a Saturday night in Istanbul without restriction.

If this does change drastically I may get back to you."

Its not so long ago since Turkey had S E C U L A R governments. Shows what little Peanut knows on this topic

Peanut

Voodoo_rasher wrote:

Peanut wrote:

Voodoo_rasher wrote:

Who's ruling Tur right now? But an Islamicist party!

Who wouldda thunk it !

I can still buy alcohol at 2am on a Saturday night in Istanbul without restriction.

If this does change drastically I may get back to you."

Its not so long ago since Turkey had S E C U L A R governments. Shows what little Peanut knows on this topic

Sorry... don't see your point? The government is not the State.

If the State does turn significantly Islamist I could agree with you. (Not that Ireland or Greece are exactly models of secular states either..)

Anyway what is the ultimate point of all this FUD?

Should Ireland be lobbying the Troika more for a loan of a few billion to prevent the British invading the RoI?

They did it in the past right, why shouldn't they try again? Gradual colonisation and all that...

Sand

Interestingly, Greece has managed to issue new, very short term bonds just last month. Whilst not in itself significant, it does call in to question the often posed view that investors would refuse to ever invest in a sovereign that had previously defaulted on its bonds. Which was similar to the view that investors would refuse to ever invest in Icelandic sovereign bonds if they didn't cover all their banks debts.

As always, investors will invest if they think the risk and the return aren't out of alignment.

maninasia

If there is money to be made people will be interested and willing to invest. End of.

Damian_ir

Since there was a serious disagreement over my view about the impact of Greek military budget to the financial instability of Greece,
i would like to mention that about 400 used M1 Abrams tanks, hundreds of heavy armored vehicles(Hummer) and Blackhawk chopers will be "given over" - no charge from USA to Greece.

Arms that are needed to sustain independence and to try to support oil interests of the country in the eastern mediterranean sea. I have no illusions. They will demand drilling rights over the national wealth of the country as a reward. They will earn many pieces of the maintenance cost pie against German interests.

Oil games applys to Cyprus as well. Since Cyprus will drill oil and gas between them and Israel WITH Israel, against Turkeys intentions and Germany wants to have a bite from that. Germany ,after decades of apathy about the greek-turkish dogfights and the small naval incidents inside Greece s borders, remembered to send 3 German battle ships to effect common military operations for testing reasons along with the navy of Cyprus...€

Meanwhile , Germans and French are promoting(on high political level)their military products in different fields of defence, by using again Siemmmmens type briefcases to the corrupted puppets of Athens. Germ-Europe at its best.

What an irony .... Ziiimensssss wants to effect seminars to the Greek public servants of how to avoid .... corruption . !!!!

I wonder what they will do in Berlin with the spare audis BMWs(and their workers) when southern countries will go out of Eurozone.

Monty Burnz

Damian_ir wrote: »

I agree with every word. This could have been a conversation between two mates in a cafe or a bar in Greece, in regards to the puppets of Athens.

The Greek people did it to themselves - Greece is a joke of a country, even more so than Ireland.

If anything, these politicians are the puppets of the Greeks who gave them power. Who voted these 'puppets' into power for the last 20 years? Who benefited from the generosity of these puppets? Surely not the Greeks?

Oh wait:

Tax Collector No. 1—early 60s, business suit, tightly wound but not obviously nervous—arrived with a notebook filled with ideas for fixing the Greek tax-collection agency. He just took it for granted that I knew that the only Greeks who paid their taxes were the ones who could not avoid doing so—the salaried employees of corporations, who had their taxes withheld from their paychecks. The vast economy of self-employed workers—everyone from doctors to the guys who ran the kiosks that sold the International Herald Tribune—cheated (one big reason why Greece has the highest percentage of self-employed workers of any European country). “It’s become a cultural trait,” he said. “The Greek people never learned to pay their taxes. And they never did because no one is punished. No one has ever been punished. It’s a cavalier offense—like a gentleman not opening a door for a lady.”

As it turned out, what the Greeks wanted to do, once the lights went out and they were alone in the dark with a pile of borrowed money, was turn their government into a piñata stuffed with fantastic sums and give as many citizens as possible a whack at it. In just the past decade the wage bill of the Greek public sector has doubled, in real terms—and that number doesn’t take into account the bribes collected by public officials. The average government job pays almost three times the average private-sector job. The national railroad has annual revenues of 100 million euros against an annual wage bill of 400 million, plus 300 million euros in other expenses. The average state railroad employee earns 65,000 euros a year. Twenty years ago a successful businessman turned minister of finance named Stefanos Manos pointed out that it would be cheaper to put all Greece’s rail passengers into taxicabs: it’s still true.

Oddly enough, the financiers in Greece remain more or less beyond reproach. They never ceased to be anything but sleepy old commercial bankers. Virtually alone among Europe’s bankers, they did not buy U.S. subprime-backed bonds, or leverage themselves to the hilt, or pay themselves huge sums of money. The biggest problem the banks had was that they had lent roughly 30 billion euros to the Greek government—where it was stolen or squandered. In Greece the banks didn’t sink the country. The country sank the banks.

As he finishes his story the finance minister stresses that this isn’t a simple matter of the government lying about its expenditures. “This wasn’t all due to misreporting,” he says. “In 2009, tax collection disintegrated, because it was an election year.”

“What?”

He smiles.

“The first thing a government does in an election year is to pull the tax collectors off the streets.”

“You’re kidding.”

Now he’s laughing at me. I’m clearly naïve.

On he went, describing a system that was, in its way, a thing of beauty. It mimicked the tax-collecting systems of an advanced economy—and employed a huge number of tax collectors—while it was in fact rigged to enable an entire society to cheat on their taxes. As he rose to leave, he pointed out that the waitress at the swanky tourist hotel failed to provide us with a receipt for our coffees. “There’s a reason for that,” he said. “Even this hotel doesn’t pay the sales tax it owes.”

I walked down the street and found waiting for me, in the bar of another swanky tourist hotel, the second tax collector. Tax Collector No. 2—casual in manner and dress, beer-drinking, but terrified that others might discover he had spoken to me—also arrived with a binder full of papers, only his was stuffed with real-world examples not of Greek people but Greek companies that had cheated on their taxes. He then started to rattle off examples (“only the ones I personally witnessed”). The first was an Athenian construction company that had built seven giant apartment buildings and sold off nearly 1,000 condominiums in the heart of the city. Its corporate tax bill honestly computed came to 15 million euros, but the company had paid nothing at all. Zero. To evade taxes it had done several things. First, it never declared itself a corporation; second, it employed one of the dozens of companies that do nothing but create fraudulent receipts for expenses never incurred and then, when the tax collector stumbled upon the situation, offered him a bribe. The tax collector blew the whistle and referred the case to his bosses—whereupon he found himself being tailed by a private investigator, and his phones tapped. In the end the case was resolved, with the construction company paying 2,000 euros. “After that I was taken off all tax investigations,” said the tax collector, “because I was good at it.”

I recommend that anyone who is feeling sorry for the Greeks should read this excellent Vanity Fair article on how they destroyed their own country with corruption and greed.

Irish Aris

Damian ir, everyday people couldn't care less about tanks and bombs. And by everyday people I mean people that live on salaries and pensions, people who paid the taxes because they couldn't avoid to. These are the people that get the biggest impact on the austerity measures, when the people who were stealing for years keep stealing. Because we are a mess of a country.
Instead of giving away our drilling rights for tanks and choppers, maybe we should give them away in exchange for new job positions and country's development. Forget the big picture, because if we continue on this path. . .there will be noone left to pay taxes. . .

Damian_ir

Monty Burnz wrote:

If anything, these politicians are the puppets of the Greeks who gave them power. Who voted these 'puppets' into power for the last 20 years? Who benefited from the generosity of these puppets? Surely not the Greeks? [/URL]

Who gave power to the people that were passing zimens type briefcases with money FROM Germany to Greece ? Do you blame all Germans for being responsible for corruption in Greece ?

When you have a corruption offence in the so called "European Union" you must have get caught two people and their associates. There are two sides to blame.

srsly78

Stop with the smokescreens and just pay your taxes already. It's Greece's fault, not Germany's.

Damian_ir

Yes pay taxes that then through the same people, in Germany and in Greece that never getting caught, will become pools, holidays in a pacific island or exotic car in a well hidden house near a lake or a coast.

srsly78

Germany is not known for corruption and tax evasion, quite the opposite.

Monty Burnz

Damian_ir wrote: »

Who gave power to the people that were passing zimens type briefcases with money FROM Germany to Greece ? Do you blame all Germans for being responsible for corruption in Greece ?

The Greeks are to blame. That's how democracy works. They voted for people who promised them loads of (borrowed) cash. Now they've got the bill, and they've already gotten away with stealing 100 billion euros of someone else's money. Are you not embarrassed that your country could become a failed state like Afghanistan because your society is so thoroughly corrupt?

Damian_ir wrote: »

When you have a corruption offence in the so called "European Union" you must have get caught two people and their associates. There are two sides to blame.

On a scale of one to ten, the EU scores about 2 on corruption. The Greeks are top of the class with 10 out of 10.

Damian_ir

Monty Burnz wrote: »

On a scale of one to ten, the EU scores about 2 on corruption. The Greeks are top of the class with 10 out of 10.

If we suppose that this is totally right, who are the associates of the corrupted Greeks ?

You will find them among German companies that are associated with Germany as a government. A few of these relations has started to come up in Athens.

I don't know if this is a pre-election publicity game but if it is not, i ll fill you in.