best bull for small herd

ronman

Hi,
I have 5 suckler cows and 3 heifers mostly good size limousen crosses. We are lookin on advice on the best bull to buy for value, safety, decent size weanlings and most of all easy calving. Only get to check on cattle morning and evening and farm is well spread out so AI not really an option, Think the bull wil be a good investment anyway cos hopin to get up to 15 cows over next few yrs as have bit of land leased out at the min. Any advice welcome, willin to spend up to about 1500 for right animal. Also what age to buy bull as had young bull in with them last yr and he missed 2 of them.
Also 2 of the heifers are 2 yr olds so good and big and wont be breedin the 1yr old til july august anyway.

pmct

I think u can't go wrong with Charolais or limousin but if I think Charolais are a good option as an all rounder just pick an easy calfer 1500 isn't a lot for a good bull though maybe for a yearling

reilig

pmct wrote: »

I think u can't go wrong with Charolais or limousin but if I think Charolais are a good option as an all rounder just pick an easy calfer 1500 isn't a lot for a good bull though maybe for a yearling

I agree with you PMCT. But if you are going to be keeping heifers, then I woul lean more towards Limousin - there is a far greater selection of easy calvers. Also, if you're not around all the time the limousin might be a good selection because calves tend to be hardier.

€1500 will only buy a bull from the very bottom end of the market.
A good muscled bull would make more in the factory at current prices.

Atilathehun

I'm leaning towards, getting a Simmental for nxt spring, to use on my char and lim cross cows.
Sell the bull calves.
Keep the heifers as replacements and some for selling as springers.
I think a lad could do real well longer term selling sim x springers.
Over a few years I would be keeping less cows, plus the yearling heifer followers and the two year old heifers / springers for selling and my own replacements.
Seems everyone I talk to with Char and Lim cow, all bemoaning the fact that replacements have less and less milk.

ronman

how about a saler bull, i know of one for sale locally about 3 yrs old, seems to have decent calves out of him.

pmct

If The bulls are anything like the cows stay away if your looking for a quiet bull

ronman

went to look at a purebred angus lastnight good size bull but only 15 months old, wonderin would be a good choice for this yr anyway with a few heifers comin up. gettin him for 1300 or so. would a yearling bull be fairly reliable for getting them all into calf.

irishh_bob

ronman wrote: »

went to look at a purebred angus lastnight good size bull but only 15 months old, wonderin would be a good choice for this yr anyway with a few heifers comin up. gettin him for 1300 or so. would a yearling bull be fairly reliable for getting them all into calf.

as long as hes not with too large a number , a young bull would be even more enthusiastic

ronman

ya we have only 9 altogether, wouldnt it be ok to put 2 heifers born last april in with him once they reach 15 months, good size heifers out of charlaios bull.
cheers.

irishh_bob

ronman wrote: »

ya we have only 9 altogether, wouldnt it be ok to put 2 heifers born last april in with him once they reach 15 months, good size heifers out of charlaios bull.
cheers.

if thier 15 mths old , they would be calving down at 2 yrs old which is optimum , each to thier own but with 9 cows , it seems a bit of a waste to buy a bull at all , would the A.I not do

pmct

Just wondering maybe I should start a new thread but as u mention it what is the best age for heifers to calf I always wait until there three

ronman

ya i know that but ai dosent suit us as land is spread out away from the yard so would be awkward gettin them in the crush every time for ai man and + not always around either to catch them comin in heat, a young bull so long as he does the job, wont lose any value anyway id say and we can sell him on again in 2 yrs.

irishh_bob

ronman wrote: »

ya i know that but ai dosent suit us as land is spread out away from the yard so would be awkward gettin them in the crush every time for ai man and + not always around either to catch them comin in heat, a young bull so long as he does the job, wont lose any value anyway id say and we can sell him on again in 2 yrs.

i understand , such is the high price for beef at the moment , you could even buy a bull and sell him on at the end of the breeding season , for example , if you bought a bull for 1500 , you would still get 1300 for him in august or september , a loss of 200 quid isnt much , would cost that to keep him over the winter untill next year

haybob

irishh_bob wrote: »

i understand , such is the high price for beef at the moment , you could even buy a bull and sell him on at the end of the breeding season , for example , if you bought a bull for 1500 , you would still get 1300 for him in august or september , a loss of 200 quid isnt much , would cost that to keep him over the winter untill next year

you mightened even lose that on him but I'm in agreement with irish bov here for that amount of cows it's not worth feeding him for the winter unless is is pure dosile and a dream calfer but you wont know that until next year

ronman

irishh_bob wrote: »

i understand , such is the high price for beef at the moment , you could even buy a bull and sell him on at the end of the breeding season , for example , if you bought a bull for 1500 , you would still get 1300 for him in august or september , a loss of 200 quid isnt much , would cost that to keep him over the winter untill next year

thats true mite be a lot handier to get rid for decent money than tryin to look after him for the winter, wel c how he goes anyway for the next few months. cheers for the tips.

irishh_bob

ronman wrote: »

thats true mite be a lot handier to get rid for decent money than tryin to look after him for the winter, wel c how he goes anyway for the next few months. cheers for the tips.

i understand how farmers who pay big money ( 2k + ) have to keep thier bulls for several years in order to justify the investment but if your only buying an average bull at average money , its a lot less hassle to just keep a bull for the breeding season

ravima

would you consider synchronising?

what happen

ronman wrote: »

went to look at a purebred angus lastnight good size bull but only 15 months old, wonderin would be a good choice for this yr anyway with a few heifers comin up. gettin him for 1300 or so. would a yearling bull be fairly reliable for getting them all into calf.

hi what purebred angus are you going for the british angus or the canadain angus. the canadain angus is bigger and longer and the canadain angus cow has plenty of milk.

ronman

what happen wrote: »

hi what purebred angus are you going for the british angus or the canadain angus. the canadain angus is bigger and longer and the canadain angus cow has plenty of milk.

the sire was Spangager Tommy Boy i tink, the lad selling it said that it was an australian bull, was a good size for his age anyway. mite seem like an obvious question but if the bull is registered with the angus society do both parents have to be pure bred and registered. he sed nothing about the dam just that it was purebred and a good cow.

what happen

ronman wrote: »

the sire was Spangager Tommy Boy i tink, the lad selling it said that it was an australian bull, was a good size for his age anyway. mite seem like an obvious question but if the bull is registered with the angus society do both parents have to be pure bred and registered. he sed nothing about the dam just that it was purebred and a good cow.

hi is the bull registered and are you getting the papers.never heard of a australian augus bull.

what happen

ronman wrote: »

the sire was Spangager Tommy Boy i tink, the lad selling it said that it was an australian bull, was a good size for his age anyway. mite seem like an obvious question but if the bull is registered with the angus society do both parents have to be pure bred and registered. he sed nothing about the dam just that it was purebred and a good cow.

yes if the bull is registered with the angus society then sire and dam have to be purebred and registered as well.

ronman

what happen wrote: »

hi is the bull registered and are you getting the papers.never heard of a australian augus bull.

ya getting papers fully registered. happy enough with the bull, have shown him to a few lads with a lot more exp. than me and they all think hel make a fine bull. the only thing concerning me really was his age (15mths) and would he be big enough to sire good size older cows, but every1 seems to think hel have no probs,
He had 2 angus bulls for sale, 1 13 month was a smaller stockier animal with a nicer neck, head.
the other1 we went for was a bit slimmer but longer legged larger animal will prob grow bigger.

steppen

There's a lot to be said for an Angus with a small herd, I'd stay away from the canadian bloodlines though, stick with the traditional.

whelan1

steppen wrote: »

There's a lot to be said for an Angus with a small herd, I'd stay away from the canadian bloodlines though, stick with the traditional.

why ?

whelan1

ronman wrote: »

ya getting papers fully registered. happy enough with the bull, have shown him to a few lads with a lot more exp. than me and they all think hel make a fine bull. the only thing concerning me really was his age (15mths) and would he be big enough to sire good size older cows, but every1 seems to think hel have no probs,
He had 2 angus bulls for sale, 1 13 month was a smaller stockier animal with a nicer neck, head.
the other1 we went for was a bit slimmer but longer legged larger animal will prob grow bigger.

any of the bulls we sold this year where all around 15 months, sold the last one the other day , happy days...

reilig

irishh_bob wrote: »

i understand how farmers who pay big money ( 2k + ) have to keep thier bulls for several years in order to justify the investment but if your only buying an average bull at average money , its a lot less hassle to just keep a bull for the breeding season

If you bought an average bull at an average price would you not be afraid that you would end up with average weanlings and average prices for them??

I paid €6k for my current Chaorlais Bull. He is running with my January and February calving cows - all CHX and LMX (whites, yellows and reds). Out of the 25 or so calves, I'd be hopeful that at least 15 of them will cross €1000 next October/November. I paid extra for a reliable line - easy calving, exceptional muscle. Buy my bull will have paid for himself at the end of the year. He has good feet and should be around for the next 6 to 8 years.

If you just keep a bull for a single breeding season every year, you are far more at risk of bringing in disease into the herd, difficult calvers, losses because of infertility, etc.

irishh_bob

reilig wrote: »

If you bought an average bull at an average price would you not be afraid that you would end up with average weanlings and average prices for them??

I paid €6k for my current Chaorlais Bull. He is running with my January and February calving cows - all CHX and LMX (whites, yellows and reds). Out of the 25 or so calves, I'd be hopeful that at least 15 of them will cross €1000 next October/November. I paid extra for a reliable line - easy calving, exceptional muscle. Buy my bull will have paid for himself at the end of the year. He has good feet and should be around for the next 6 to 8 years.

If you just keep a bull for a single breeding season every year, you are far more at risk of bringing in disease into the herd, difficult calvers, losses because of infertility, etc.

i just assumed that someone with less than a dozen cows , wouldnt be too bothered about getting 1000 euro weanlings , 6 k for a bull , thats the cost of 200 1st serve inseminations by an A.I man :eek:

reilig

irishh_bob wrote: »

i just assumed that someone with less than a dozen cows , wouldnt be too bothered about getting 1000 euro weanlings , 6 k for a bull , thats the cost of 200 1st serve inseminations by an A.I man :eek:

But think of all it saves you:

Rounding up cows every day for the ai man
Your cows have a better chance of going in calf to the bull than ai.
You don't have to check them every day. Its all right to get ai if you only have a couple of cows but when you have more than that its impossible to get them all for ai and you are sure to have a less compact calving.

At the end of the day, if you want to breed the best and get the best out of your cows and your land, you have to have the best bull - he has a 50% determination of the quality of your calves. What you're willing to pay for him will depend on the return that you expect to get from him.

what happen

steppen wrote: »

There's a lot to be said for an Angus with a small herd, I'd stay away from the canadian bloodlines though, stick with the traditional.

whelan 1 beat me to it why what wrong with the canadian angus i have used them in the past and was very happy with them.i would have no problem buying one to use in the years ahead.

mikeoh

whats the difference between canadian and traditional angus as I'm intrested in buying a few pure breds . Ive seen polly type cows 500-600kg and ive seen much bigger 700 -800kg what should I be trying to buy,lads say the big cows dont breed as well . I taught size equals profit any tips would help

Birdnuts

ronman wrote: »

went to look at a purebred angus lastnight good size bull but only 15 months old, wonderin would be a good choice for this yr anyway with a few heifers comin up. gettin him for 1300 or so. would a yearling bull be fairly reliable for getting them all into calf.

I'd go with an Angus myself - the chap next door has a small pure bred Angus herd and the bull is an absolute pet:)

whelan1

mikeoh wrote: »

whats the difference between canadian and traditional angus as I'm intrested in buying a few pure breds . Ive seen polly type cows 500-600kg and ive seen much bigger 700 -800kg what should I be trying to buy,lads say the big cows dont breed as well . I taught size equals profit any tips would help

traditional angus are very butty, canadian have the size and strength , traditional angus would be a fatter breed and the canadian would have a great frame... we bred 2 ai bulls ptn and ptj have a look at there figures on the icbf website, ptj bet all the breeds that where with him in tully for daily live weight gain:D

ellewood

reilig wrote: »

But think of all it saves you:

Rounding up cows every day for the ai man
Your cows have a better chance of going in calf to the bull than ai.
You don't have to check them every day. Its all right to get ai if you only have a couple of cows but when you have more than that its impossible to get them all for ai and you are sure to have a less compact calving.

At the end of the day, if you want to breed the best and get the best out of your cows and your land, you have to have the best bull - he has a 50% determination of the quality of your calves. What you're willing to pay for him will depend on the return that you expect to get from him.

agree 100% i only have around 20 cows i was doing all ai but bought a good bull last year hes in the top 1% for sbv and mucle if the bull last me 4 years which he should no prob and more he will have cost me the same as ai and i have the advantage of when i check cows before work in the morning all i have to do is take her no and as well with the bull cows go back in calf quicker so tightening the calving

mikeoh

whelan1 wrote: »

traditional angus are very butty, canadian have the size and strength , traditional angus would be a fatter breed and the canadian would have a great frame... we bred 2 ai bulls ptn and ptj have a look at there figures on the icbf website, ptj bet all the breeds that where with him in tully for daily live weight gain:D

Thanks Whelan for reply ,but this is where I get lost I looked up both your bulls so can I take it PTJ is more canadian type [sbv 48] and PTN more trad [sbv-22]. I see bulls like FIW, NFU AYR with big sbv and very positive linear evaluations and then bulls like AMZ DVE with very poor sbv and negative linear evaluations or should all these figures be ingored as a paper exercise ...........P.S a lad was telling me the angus cows can go a big crazy for a month or two after calving is this a problem with them or can the same be said for a few cows of any breed

blue5000

Hi Mike, welcome to boards,

In my experience angus cows are just really protective of their calves, can be rel bitches if I'm trying to tag a calf when it's still wet after calving.:pac:

what happen

whelan1 wrote: »

traditional angus are very butty, canadian have the size and strength , traditional angus would be a fatter breed and the canadian would have a great frame... we bred 2 ai bulls ptn and ptj have a look at there figures on the icbf website, ptj bet all the breeds that where with him in tully for daily live weight gain:D

and plenty of milk:D

wiggy123

angus cows are very protective after calving!!
irish angus--traditional, is a nice square/stocky animals..nice head!
canidian adds height.. not as nice a head in my opinion...
most dairy men now a days want height--as most have holestin cows..so size matters!

as for bulls in AI... AMZ/DVE are geared for dairy men. figures wise etc..
FIW/PTJ/NFU/AYR are for suckler men..pedigree breeders/...will produce better calves!!

mikeoh

good man that throws abit of light on it

whelan1

most sucklers are a bit protective straight after calving , we give the cow some nuts and tag the calf and blackleg it then too, easier to catch the calf when its just after been born

mikeoh

Well I took the plunge and bought some pure bred angus 4 cows by a bagatelle bull 3 incalf to FIW and 1 calved to JRM a 3month old bull calf he is a very rusty black colour but i suppose he will blacken up

JohnBoy

I've a question on having your own bull when growing a herd....

If you're trying to grow a suckler herd, and breeding your own replacements do you basically have to change the bull every year or two to prevent inbreeding?


sorry if this is a dumb question

blue5000

Yeah it can get complicated, unless you buy in replacement heifers and sell all your weanling heifers. I've :o3 bulls running here in three different groups, hope to sell the oldest bull in a few weeks though.

reilig

JohnBoy wrote: »

I've a question on having your own bull when growing a herd....

If you're trying to grow a suckler herd, and breeding your own replacements do you basically have to change the bull every year or two to prevent inbreeding?


sorry if this is a dumb question

My best maternal cows are kept separate and ran with the breeding heifers. AI is used on all - so between the cows and the heifers we have enough replacements.

ronman

i bought the purebred angus 2 weeks ago, 16 mth old cost 1200 notes, he is hard at work and as far as i no has 3 of dem in calf already, he wont produce any 1000 weanlins but if we keep most of the bull calves for factory bullocks ourselves and sell the springer heifers should do quite well. think he was good option as an easy calver is worth more to me than anything when i often be 10-12 hours away from home at a time.

whelan1

mikeoh wrote: »

Well I took the plunge and bought some pure bred angus 4 cows by a bagatelle bull 3 incalf to FIW and 1 calved to JRM a 3month old bull calf he is a very rusty black colour but i suppose he will blacken up

well done , best of luck , are you registered with the angus association?

mikeoh

whelan1 wrote: »

well done , best of luck , are you registered with the angus association?

thanks ya I signed up to the Irish Angus Assoc. I dont think either or makes a differance .....so I kept the money in the country

wiggy123

welcome to the fold...
best of luck with them--hope there good for ya!!
gd starting off..breeding there!
FIW producing good for me anyway!!

AI man123

Fair play-if your going using ai on them may i suggest AYR-have seen a good few calves from him and they all seem awesome. Best of luck with dem.

mikeoh

ya he is picture perfect but at 40 euros a straw I might wait till next year when Im more into it.Dovea have 1 or 2 good looking bulls but if FIW works out I might stick with him

wiggy123

FIW am happy at mo with him.. hav 2 nice calves on ground off him!!
unsure of FDH or FPG --hav ladies due to them, around xmas!!
AYR is producing the goods..lovely bull--great figures!!
Dovea have a few gd bulls...LFU and MYJ... think €10 a straw!
are breeding good so i hear!

AI man123

If you are trying to breed show calves CYI is another top sire-seems to have dominated local shows around the country for the last couple of years.
Ive served a couple of my own heifers to WLU- im hoping he will do the business.