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Suitable Sire to cover a Diesis Mare

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  • 25-05-2011 9:19pm
    #1
    Hupski hater
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭


    Hi,
    I have a mare (Anaaween) by Diesis and I am trying to pick a suitable stallion for her, I'm looking down the lines of Echo of light, Arakan and Moss Vale at the minute..
    Has anyone any suggestions?? Not looking to spend any more than 4k!!
    Tagged:


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    #2
    kincsem
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,013 ✭✭✭kincsem


    Do you want a filly or a colt foal? I know we can not choose but imo some pedigrees are good for a filly, some for a colt. I mean if it born a colt it might be good, but if born a filly might not be good, and vice versa.

    How soon do you need suggestions? I guess you want an Ireland based stallion.


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    #3
    Hupski hater
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭Hupski hater


    kincsem wrote: »
    Do you want a filly or a colt foal? I know we can not choose but imo some pedigrees are good for a filly, some for a colt. I mean if it born a colt it might be good, but if born a filly might not be good, and vice versa.

    How soon do you need suggestions? I guess you want an Ireland based stallion.

    I would prefer a colt, She will be injected in a week so would need to decide in the next 4/5 days. And yes an Irish based stallion.


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    #4
    kincsem
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,013 ✭✭✭kincsem


    I'm not in the industry but pedigrees is my interest. I'll have suggestions by tomorrow evening if I have any. Either way I will post here.

    I've looked down the Irish Thoroughbred Marketing stallion list starting at the top with Aahsaylad and am working my way down. I'm putting each prospective stallion in a test-mating pedigree with Anaaween. I'll list a few I think might be suitable if I find any. I have no idea of the conformation of your mare or the stallions so you will need to form your own opinion there.

    Anaaween (2005) by Diesis / out of Vencera by Green Tune / out of Domino Queen by Primo Dominie / out of The Queen Of Soul by Chief Singer / out of Catriona by Sing Sing / out of Paphos by Vilmorin. I can look up the dams and their sires racing record in my Timeform and Turform annuals to get a better flavour of the damside. From memory the sires on her dam line are milers, sprinters.


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    #5
    jayroyal
    Registered Users Posts: 440 ✭✭jayroyal


    I don't know what typa of stalion but looking at your mare maybe a sprinter or miler might be best. I would sujest first crop and unproven stallion are you best choice for you price wise anyway here is my choices :D God i'd love to be in your shoes , here to hoping some day

    1: Dandy Man, was unlucky not to be a group one winner, also he's from the only crop of the brilliant Mozart. If he's bring some of his fathers qualities through to his foals he good be a stallion for the future. It's a gamble but at your price ya have to take one on. He's standing at Ballyhane Stud (IRE) for a fee of 3500 euro

    2: Dutch Art , has started with a bang this year second in first crop standing , he's 5000 grand sterling standing in Britain might not suit.

    Well please let us know your choice.


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    #6
    kincsem
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,013 ✭✭✭kincsem


    Its late. I put each of the 248 (?) stallions in the Irish Thoroughbred Marketing "Irish Stallion 2011" list into my pedigree program (most were already entered) and looked at a test mating for Anaaween with each of the 248 stallions, even the expensive stallions out of your price range.

    One thing I noticed fairly quickly was there were few good matches. My guess why this is is because Anaaween (2005) was sired by Diesis (1980). That is a 25 year age difference. The Diesis half of her pedigree is much older that her dam side. When you put a stallion in a test mating with Anaaween that older part of her pedigree doesn't match well with the "younger" pedigrees of stallions standing at stud.

    I think what gives a pedigree its power is the duplication of important ancestors in the first generations, say from 3rd to 6th generation.

    I see on pedigreequery.com that Anaaween was bought for $260k in 2006. She raced nine times in Ireland and placed twice (you obviously know all this.)

    I could give a list of possible stallion mates for her but I wasn't satisfied with most of them. My opinion is the Irish National Stud stallion Indian Haven is the only good match from a pedigree perspective. He is a bit out of your range at €6,000. I think this test-mating would probably be better for a filly foal (not what you want), but it might give a nice colt.

    I think my explanations as to why Indian Haven might be the best mate might be difficult to understand. I compare the sire side of the proposed pedigree with the dam side, and like to see good horses duplicated (ancestors). The proposed test-mating has some similarities to the pedigree of the sire Daggers Drawn.

    The negative is Indian Haven has only 7% winners from 300 runners. That is a poor win rate.

    Indian Haven is best remembered for winning the Irish 2000 Guineas in 2003 on soft (1st of 16), then flopped in the St James palace on good/firm (11th of 11). I remember this well because Zafeen flopped in that Irish 2000 Guineas (14th of 16) by won the St James Palace (1st of 11). I had a win double Choisir (25/1) and Zafeen 11/1.

    Another path you might try is look up the % win rate for each stallion on the Racing Post website and pick the best "% win rate to stud fee". I might have a go at this and post up any that look reasonable.


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    #7
    kincsem
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,013 ✭✭✭kincsem


    I think Intikhab at €5,500 standing at Derrinstown is good.
    He has an AEI of 1.54 (average earnings index) which shows he is better than most. Of course that is boosted by his Epsom Oaks winner Snow Fairy. 209 wins from 1738 runs (12%) on the flat is better than most.

    A test-mating pedigree with Anaaween is ok. But you never know what you get until it runs (or tries to.)

    If you are short a few Euro for the stud fee you might want to do a deal with me. :)


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    #8
    UrbanSea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,335 ✭✭✭✭UrbanSea


    That's detailed. What's the pedigree program you have? What does it show up as when it shows a possible nice horse?


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    #9
    kincsem
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,013 ✭✭✭kincsem


    UrbanSea wrote: »
    That's detailed. What's the pedigree program you have? What does it show up as when it shows a possible nice horse?
    I use the Australian/New Zealand program TesioPower. I bought it in 1993. My first grind was inputting pedigrees of all English and Irish Group 1,2,3 winners from 1950 to date (or correcting what was there.) I've since extended the group winners back to 1900 (or the races that have become group races since the pattern was introduced in 1970.) Of course the data goes back to about 1700 and you can get the pedigree of any winner back to the first derby winner in 1780 and beyond.

    I look at a lot of pedigrees so have an idea of what might work (remember less than 10% win a race.)

    Faster flat horses tend to have more duplications of important ancestors in their pedigrees imo (unless it has a large content of an isolated pegigree group e.g. German.) An example would be the fast Coolmore sire Mozart (deceased), who had the full sibling brothers His Majesty and Graustark (both by Ribot ex Flower Bowl) in his third generation.

    I like to see connections between the four sire lines: sire's sire's sire; sire's dam sire; dam's sire's sire; dam's dam's dire. And I like to see the same for the dam lines.

    After that it is just luck which genes the foal inherits. If you look at five brothers they will all look different; the same parents; slightly different genetic mix.

    Some people say you do not need to look any further than the racing record of the sire and dam. It certainly cuts down the work.


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    #10
    finbarrk
    Registered Users Posts: 5,462 ✭✭✭finbarrk


    Intresting. You put a lot of work into it, well done.


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    #11
    Hupski hater
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭Hupski hater


    Cheers for all the help guys it is much appreciated, Yeah I had looked at Intikhab.. He would be ok, Most stallions are available for a bit less than what they are being quoted at especially this time of year and i've been able to get a few at quite a bit better on the fee front as the mare has good pedigree and through a few connections I have..
    She mad a nice few quid as a yearling.. I picked her up for substantially less and she was in foal to Let the Lion Roar, dont know what the thinking behind that was but she's had a colt foal so will see what happens!!
    Hopefully if I get things right she may breed a 260k foal some day!!


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    #12
    UrbanSea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,335 ✭✭✭✭UrbanSea


    When you say you bought it but had to put all the group winners into it,was it basically blank when you bought it? Or was it just Aussie and NZ stats in it? And when you bought it,was it a computer programme?


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    #13
    kincsem
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,013 ✭✭✭kincsem


    Good luck with whatever you choose. Tell us what you decided. We might be cheering it home in the Derby in a few years.


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    #14
    kincsem
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,013 ✭✭✭kincsem


    UrbanSea wrote: »
    When you say you bought it but had to put all the group winners into it,was it basically blank when you bought it? Or was it just Aussie and NZ stats in it? And when you bought it,was it a computer programme?
    TesioPower was a menu driven commercial program with about 120,000 horses in it when I bought it. It was written by an Australian, Simon Morris. The pedigree info came from afaik the New Zealander, Jack Glengarry.

    The problem seemed to be that a number of different pedigree databases were loaded into it at the beginning. It looked like the compilers of the different databases had different ideas about spelling e.g. Nijinsky, Nijinski; Nijinsky II. If a colt or filly in the database had a sire Nijinsky II it would not pick up the pedigree of the horse Nijinsky. I did a big edit to "correct" the names. The data was in .dbf format so I used the database program FoxPro to do the updates, and to isolate the errors.

    Another problem was horses with the same name e.g. there are seven horses with the name Nimble in the database born 1784, 1831, 1861, 1879, 1938, 1981, 1992. I e-mailed TesioPower about this as it caused pedigree tree problems. I has gotten around this by using Nimble (32); Nimble (22); Nimble (12) and so on. The numbers in parentheses are their Bruce Lowe family numbers. I pointed out this problem. Independently they had changed it so that the "name" of a horse was its name+date of birth although obviously only the name appears on the family tree. They sent out a program update, and they update regularly with improvements. I only took the software improvements and ignored the horse data updates.

    A final problem was there was a large number of Australian and New Zealand minor horses in the database that did not interest me. I deleted them. Don't ask how I knew they were Australian/NZ.

    The version of TesioPower on sale now is silky smooth from a data point of view. In the 1990s to help I sent them the six-generation pedigrees of the 50 years of English and Irish winners, about 20k+ horses. The version of the program I use is an older version and today has 157,791 horses. I have a CD with another 650,000 for reference bought elsewhere. And I have a full set of the General Stud Book, 44 volumes going back about 200 years, USA, German, French incomplete stud book sets, a set of the Racing Calender 1903 onwards, plus Timeform annuals from 1960 and lots more.

    One reason I keep the older version of TesioPower is I can write programs to analyse pedigree more easily. I just take a copy of the datebase into FoxPro. Some years back I wrote a program to analyse the quality of a pedigree. I was interested in getting into pedigrees after the 1992 Derby won by Dr Devious. Nick Morden in a Sporting Life Weekender article said only five of the 19 runners had the stamina to win based on the Dosage Index (1st, 2nd, 4th, 11th, dns). I got out my Timeform annual form book and had £250 win, £100 ew on the winner at 10/1 and 12/1. In time everyone knew about the dosage index and we now seldom get sprinters and milers in the Derby. So I moved on to try to assess the quality of a pedigree. It took me twenty months to write my first pedigree quality program. I wrote a dosage index program in two nights (much simpler.)


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    #15
    knighted_1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 870 ✭✭✭knighted_1


    what happened to the first foal ?


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    #16
    robfullam
    Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭robfullam


    I think you would be better off sending your mare to Echo of Light Standing At Kildangan Stud In Kildare. He is a Marvellous Looking Individual as I seen Him recently. And at €3,000 for the cover you can't go wrong in my opinion. Looking too much into pedigrees can be a bad idea too!!

    http://www.darley.co.uk/stallions/our-stallions/echo-of-light/pedigree

    Have a look :)

    Let us Know what you do!:rolleyes:


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    #17
    Huntthe
    Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭Huntthe


    Any son of Danehill would do the trick, the sharpen up nick has produced Danehill Dancer and Dylan Thomas to name but two, hope it went well.


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    #18
    Hupski hater
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭Hupski hater


    Once again Thanks for the help..

    I had the mare covered yesterday with Echo of Light at Kildangan stud.. Hi 1st crop are only running this year so hopefully they do well and we get a bit of luck with the foal!!

    Thanking you all!!


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    #19
    Huntthe
    Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭Huntthe


    Hupski hater wrote: »
    Once again Thanks for the help..

    I had the mare covered yesterday with Echo of Light at Kildangan stud.. Hi 1st crop are only running this year so hopefully they do well and we get a bit of luck with the foal!!

    Thanking you all!!

    Hope you struck a good deal ?


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    #20
    Hupski hater
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭Hupski hater


    Yeah we got a good deal in my opinion.. Great place down there and all very helpful!


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    #21
    hucklebuck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,173 ✭✭✭hucklebuck


    Hupski hater wrote: »
    Yeah we got a good deal in my opinion.. Great place down there and all very helpful!

    Best of luck with that Echo has a nice pedigree and worth a shot at the asking price.:)


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    #22
    robfullam
    Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭robfullam


    Nice to see you went to Echo Of Light! Well done..

    Best Of luck!

    P.S Stick the mare on some Regumate and Oxytocin! (Speak to your Vet First I Guess :P)


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    #23
    convert
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭convert


    Mod hat on here: Please consult a vet before you use any supplements or medications on your mare! They're the best person to advise you on this.


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    #24
    knighted_1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 870 ✭✭✭knighted_1


    when she was up for sale her page states she was in foal to 'let the lion roar '

    what happened to the foal ?


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    #25
    Hupski hater
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭Hupski hater


    knighted_1 wrote: »
    when she was up for sale her page states she was in foal to 'let the lion roar '

    what happened to the foal ?

    She has a Colt foal from Let the Lion roar.. Good looking foal..


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    #26
    d4dermot
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭d4dermot


    Hey guys. You all seem to be very knowledgeable. I have a mare called Big Bad Lily that I'm sending to stud this spring. What advice do you have in sire choice. She has alot of speed for her pedigree and I do like the ideas of trying to breed a top class sprinter but maybe the pedigree says otherwise. Your thoughts.


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    #27
    bellybuster12
    Registered Users Posts: 551 ✭✭✭bellybuster12


    If you are an owner breeder and intend to keep progeny then it's only a matter of your personal preference, if you intend on selling as a foal/yearling than you're looking at a more commercial sire.

    I had a quick look at big bad lily and she has won over 5f and 6f on everything from soft/yeilding/standard/good to firm which is a nice thing to have on the Dam side, also highest winning mark of 68.


    As i presume the likes of invincible spirit and oasis dream are out(based on price, i could be wrong), i will suggest the following..


    Amadeus wolf(2.5k)
    http://irishnationalstud.ie/stud/5/amadeus-wolf.html

    Dandy man (7.5k)
    http://www.ballyhane.com/stallions/?stallion_id=10

    Power (10k)
    http://www.coolmore.com/stallions/power/?farm_id=41

    Choisir (12.5)
    http://www.coolmore.com/stallions/choisir/?farm_id=41

    Your trainer might be able to give you advise also, and good luck in tipp if ye run;)


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    #28
    d4dermot
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭d4dermot


    Thanks for that. I do like Dandy Man actually and am Defo considering him.. Also like Kodiac at 10k. ..


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    #29
    rossom
    Registered Users Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭rossom


    Is Starspangledbanner back standing at stud or is he still sub-fertile? Sired two winning RA sprinters in The Wow Signal and Anthem Alexander this year from his limited bunch. Was 10k in 2012 (which is the last listed price on RP site).


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    #30
    bellybuster12
    Registered Users Posts: 551 ✭✭✭bellybuster12


    rossom wrote: »
    Is Starspangledbanner back standing at stud or is he still sub-fertile? Sired two winning RA sprinters in The Wow Signal and Anthem Alexander this year from his limited bunch. Was 10k in 2012 (which is the last listed price on RP site).


    I'm open to correction on this, but i think he is standing in Oz by one of the share holders. I believe he only covers a small number for obvious reasons. Not sure if he is shuttled to northern hemisphere for our covering season.


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    #31
    tryfix
    Registered Users Posts: 2,702 ✭✭✭tryfix


    bellybuster12 wrote: »
    I'm open to correction on this, but i think he is standing in Oz by one of the share holders. I believe he only covers a small number for obvious reasons. Not sure if he is shuttled to northern hemisphere for our covering season.
    Fairly sure he's covering a small book in Australia due to sub par fertility. I think it takes three covers by him to get a mare in foal. They're working on his fertility, possibly stem cell work and there's a fair chance we'll see him back at some stage if they're successful in their attempts.

    http://www.racingpost.com/horses/horse_home.sd?horse_id=726295#topHorseTabs=horse_stories&bottomHorseTabs=horse_form


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