Parents decide to bring up "genderless" child

El Guapo!

Wtf is wrong with some people?? Is there some competition going on for the weirdest way to bring up a child nowadays? Idiots like this are whats wrong with the world today. Damn hipsters!!

For most of us, as soon as a pregnancy is announced, the gender guessing game begins. And while some like to keep the sex of their baby a secret until the child is born, one couple has taken a decidedly different approach on revealing the sex of their offspring.
A Canadian couple from Toronto have decided to keep the gender of their four-month-old baby a secret in order to raise what they call a 'genderless' child. Storm will be raised as neither a boy nor girl and will choose a sex when he or she grows up.

B]See also:[/B] [URL="http://yhoo.it/lPkmkX"][COLOR=#bb2255]Couple names baby girl after feature on Facebook[/COLOR][/URL

Kathy Witterick and David Stocker have only revealed Storm’s gender to close members of the family, including their two young sons, one friend and the midwives who delivered the child.

After Storm was born on New Year’s Day, the parents sent out an email to the rest of their friends and loved ones, writing: “We’ve decided not to share Storm’s sex - a tribute to choice in a place of limitation, a stand up to what the world could become in Storm’s lifetime ( a more progressive place?...).”

The couple told the Toronto Star about the flood of unsupportive comments they have received. Friends expressed their fears of how Storm’s genderless nature would make the child vulnerable to bullying in the future. Another concern was that they thought the couple were actually taking away the newborn’s right to choice, by forcing their own ideology on the tot.

Defending their decision, Kathy said, “With the baby, even the people who love the most and know you intimately, the first question they ask is, ‘“Is it a girl or a boy?”’ David added, “If you really want to get to know someone, you don’t ask what’s between their legs.’

Kathy and David feel strongly about releasing their children from the constraints that society poses on males and females and want them to make their own decisions about how they act and look.

Their sons Jazz, five, and Kio, two, have the freedom to dress themselves and decide when they want to cut their hair. Kio’s favourite colour is purple and older sibling Jazz has long hair, he likes pink.

After being mistaken for a girl and home schooled because of how people would, “immediately react with Jazz over his gender” the couple decided to raise Storm genderless

http://uk.lifestyle.yahoo.com/family-parenting/meet-the-parents-who-are-raising-a-genderless-baby-blog-90-yahoo-lifestyles.html

Superbus

Will it not know? Kind of... obvious, is it not?

Kevin Duffy

I am normally supportive of other people's parenting choices, but this sounds like a form of child abuse to me. Kids need identities and boundaries.

KeithM89_old

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQvnZOR_oIk

Floodric

It'll know for itself by the time its 5.

Also, calling it "it" isn't very nice. The parents didnt think of that one

Seachmall

the first question they ask is, ‘“Is it a girl or a boy?”’ David added, “If you really want to get to know someone, you don’t ask what’s between their legs.’

If you want to know if it's a boy or a girl what's between their legs in generally a good indication. Most people aren't that interested in 2 month old kids political opinion hence "Is it a girl or a boy?".

Just saying.

El Weirdo

The fact that they named the child Storm is worse if you ask me.

Overheal

What are they smoking, because it's super-easy to smoke weed in Toronto, and come up with the most ass-backward ideas you've ever heard of.

Superbus

Floodric wrote: »

It'll know for itself by the time its 5.

Also, calling it "it" isn't very nice. The parents didnt think of that one

Better than (s)he, optional hermaphrodite, boygirl...

orourkeda

What are they going to do when his balls drop or her fanny opens and they start jerking off to squirt porn

Liam Byrne

Sick!

Kevin Duffy

El Weirdo wrote: »

The fact that they named the child Storm is worse if you ask me.

Along with Jazz and Kio. Those kids will be free to make their choices alright and the first free choice will be to hate their parents, closely followed by executing a deed poll.

orourkeda

We got another home schooler in the making. They'll be drinking nettle soup and pumpkin wine on their 40th birthday

knird evol

When it gets to the age of five they'll give it a play school book called "I'm a hermaphrodite, and it's OK"

galwayrush

Did mammy and daddy decide what they themselves wanted to be? Obviously yes regarding ditching common sense.
Why did such a ****ed up couple think it would be a good idea to breed.

Seachmall

Do these people honestly believe gender is a choice?

Can someone hit them in the face with a primary school biology book please.

shadowninty

freaks

lousy on kid

Yahew

As far as I understand modern sociological literature, everything is culturally defined except homosexuality which is totally genetic and anybody who believes anything else is a thought criminal.

This is rubbish, and - whats more has been tried before - and nature will out.

(There are some genuine genetic transgenders, but that is not what we are talking about here)

Duckworth_Luas

Genderless? One of the first things the child will become aware of is that their is a Mammy and a Daddy!

Wolfe Tone

When I have a son he will like manly sports and playing guns dammit! (can you believe I know parents who don't let their kids do that? When I was young a friend was not allowed play cowboys and Indians ffs)

Stupid hippy parents are gonna fcuk their kids up

I_am_LOST

I feel so sorry for the kid

deathrider

Well at least they were nice enough to name the kid after one of the X-Men :pac:

Floodric

Its not genderless. Its just ignorance of the gender. You don't choose what you come out as. By all means go nuts (No pun intended) and chop off/stick on whatever bits when you're older.
All thats gonna happen is bullying from other kids. can you imagine a room fulla boys and girls, and theres one "Thing" in the corner. Who are they gonna pick on?

Links234

I for one applaud the parents.

OutlawPete

It's the usual bull**** about gender neutrality. Residue left over from radical feminism's attempts to portray all feminine traits as being a result of conditioning and nothing to do with nature and that it is society alone that is responsible for gender roles. All hogwash of course, but unfortunately there are many around today who still believe that to be the case.

I think we would all agree that the gender stereotyping of toys can have some negative effects, but this gender neutrality stuff a joke, it's the result of Feminist dogma, nothing more and nothing less. Boys are boys and girls are girls. Raising children "genderless" is child abuse as far as I'm concerned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXqiJLZm-DI

Kevin Duffy

Links234 wrote: »

I for one applaud the parents.

I don't want to point a finger at you, or back you into a corner or anything of that nature, but am I right in thinking that you had/have gender-identity issues? Would you wish that on the child when it could be avoided?

Apologies if I've remembered incorrectly.

JCDUB

Their kids are called Kio, Jazz and Storm, enough said...


I fucking hate the way parents are so depressed with their own miserable shitehawk existance that they try to fúck things up for their kids too.

Attention seeking wankers.

El Guapo!

Links234 wrote: »

I for one applaud the parents.

Well I think you'd be in the minority. Would you really want to do that to a child? By all means let them make their own decisions as they get older but your job as a parent is to protect them and these parents are doing the exact opposite.
Their forcing this on the child and putting him/her up for serious bullying/mental torment. You of all people should understand this.
This, in my opinion, is worse than a parent forcing a gay child to be heterosexual or "normal". They're teaching the child that not having a gender is "normal" when it clearly isn't.

TheZohanS

Links234 wrote: »

I for one applaud the parents.

Couldn't agree more. The child will be free of gender stereotypes and free to be straight, gay, bi or anything else without the pressures of having to conform to what society expects of them. At least that way when they're growing up and if it does transpire that they're gay etc there's no big dramarama for them in "coming out" and if they're straight it's business as usual and they'll do their own thing. A persons sexuality shouldn't define them.

mahamageehad

This definitely has to be child abuse. I mean the government can step in a refuse to let you name your child something stupid (anyone remember "Talula Does the Hula from Hawaii" Those parents lost custody!

Simple gender related things-

* Toilets are for males and females, no inbetween
* Application forms. Especially government ones.
* When a teacher says ok lets split up, girls on the left, boys on the right.
* GENITALS!
* pronouns. The child would have to b referred to as "it"

That's all off the top of my head. I think it's ridiculous. The bullying here will be immense.

Kevin Duffy

TheZohan wrote: »

A persons sexuality shouldn't define them.

Indeed, but sexuality is only one aspect of gender. A big part, but still only one part.

The King of Moo

What stupid parents. Obviously unaware of the fact that while there is a difference between sex (purely biological) and gender (a broader cultural construct), the two are pretty hard to separate. If they want the child to choose whether they want to play with guns or dolls fair enough. But Storm's still gonna have a penis or a vagina and very soon (s)he's gonna get very confused. How is Storm gonna feel when (s)he realises that all the kids in school are boys and girls and (s)he's apparently not one or the other?
Idiot parents wanting to score ideological points at the cost of their child's happiness and upbringing.

TheZohanS

Kevin Duffy wrote: »

Indeed, but sexuality is only one aspect of gender. A big part, but still only one part.

It was probably a poor choice of words, I meant sexuality as in encompassing gender too.

The child will probably start school around 4 or 5, I'd say at that age a child would have a fairly good idea if they are male or female themselves and wouldn't need prompting from people around them, no? Maybe a parent can comment on that?

mahamageehad

Also does anybody else think it sounds a little like parents who already have two sons, wished desperately for a daughter, didn't get one and are now making the best of it..??

robinph

It's been done before, approximately. I can't remember the names right now to do a Google and find the story for you, but something along the lines of twin boys born, some crazy accident happens to one boy, various operations, boy becomes girl, boy brought up as girl, birl is all confused through life, birl finally discovers what happened (possibly from reading some paper written by the doc that messed with his bits and realised it was about him/ her) and I think eventually tops themselves.

Links234

Kevin Duffy wrote: »

I don't want to point a finger at you, or back you into a corner or anything of that nature, but am I right in thinking that you had/have gender-identity issues? Would you wish that on the child when it could be avoided?

Apologies if I've remembered incorrectly.

I think leaving the child to self-identify would reduce the possibility of them having gender identity issues, as they're not being forced into anything.

Kevin Duffy

TheZohan wrote: »

It was probably a poor choice of words, I meant sexuality as in encompassing gender too.

The child will probably start school around 4 or 5, I'd say at that age a child would have a fairly good idea if they are male or female themselves and wouldn't need prompting from people around them, no? Maybe a parent can comment on that?

But so, so much of your development, in all areas, comes before starting school. You can't hold their gender identity back until then. You can encourage balance and openness, but not actively hold it back, as the parents in this case seem to be saying they will.

mahamageehad

This was just brought to my attention:

"David Reimer (August 22, 1965 – May 4, 2004) was a Canadian man who was born as a healthy male, but was sexually reassigned and raised as female after his penis was accidentally destroyed during circumcision.[1] Psychologist John Money oversaw the case and reported the reassignment as successful, and as evidence that gender identity is primarily learned. Academic sexologist Milton Diamond later reported that Reimer never identified as female, and that he began living as male at age 15. Reimer later went public with his story to discourage similar medical practices. Eventually he committed suicide, due to suffering years of severe depression, financial instability and a dissolving marriage."

He was reassigned gender at 22 months.

Reimer's account, written with John Colapinto two decades later, described how - contrary to Money's reports - when living as Brenda, Reimer did not identify as a girl. He was ostracized and bullied by peers, and neither frilly dresses (which he was forced to wear during frigid Calgary winters) nor female hormones made him feel female. By the age of 13, Reimer was experiencing suicidal depression, and told his parents he would commit suicide if they made him see John Money again. In 1980, Reimer's parents told him the truth about his gender reassignment, following advice from Reimer's endocrinologist and psychiatrist. At 14, Reimer decided to assume a male gender identity, calling himself David. By 1997, Reimer had undergone treatment to reverse the reassignment, including testosterone injections, a double mastectomy, and two phalloplasty operations. He also married Jane Fontaine and became a stepfather to her three children.

His case came to international attention in 1997 when he told his story to Milton Diamond, an academic sexologist who persuaded Reimer to allow him to report the outcome in order to dissuade physicians from treating other infants similarly. Soon after, Reimer went public with his story and John Colapinto published a widely disseminated and influential account in Rolling Stone magazine in December 1997.[4] They went on to elaborate the story in a book, As Nature Made Him: The Boy Who Was Raised as a Girl.[3]

The Intersex Society of North America, which opposes involuntary sex reassignment, treats the story of David Peter Reimer as a cautionary tale about why the genitals of unconsenting minors should not be needlessly modified.[6]

Thats a rough overview of the wiki page- full page here

thisguy

robinph wrote: »

It's been done before, approximately. I can't remember the names right now to do a Google and find the story for you, but something along the lines of twin boys born, some crazy accident happens to one boy, various operations, boy becomes girl, boy brought up as girl, birl is all confused through life, birl finally discovers what happened (possibly from reading some paper written by the doc that messed with his bits and realised it was about him/ her) and I think eventually tops themselves.

Yea I think I remember seeing something about that before, poor lad...perfect example to show that gender is fundamentally hard wired into a person, and the negative consequences that this could have for the child.

Kevin Duffy

Links234 wrote: »

I think leaving the child to self-identify would reduce the possibility of them having gender identity issues, as they're not being forced into anything.

I honestly think you have that completely wrong. If the child has its own identity, that needs to be allowed to develop early, not later on. It's one thing to not force them into something, quite another to actively plan to impede their development, in any area.

mconigol

“If you really want to get to know someone, you don’t ask what’s between their legs.’

So not knowing if someone is male or female allows you to really get to know them how exactly??

robinph

mahamageehad wrote: »

This was just brought to my attention:

He was reassigned gender at 22 months.

Thats a rough overview of the wiki page- full page here

David Reimer, that's the chap I was thinking of, although remembered it a bit wrong.

JCDUB

Links234 wrote: »

I think leaving the child to self-identify would reduce the possibility of them having gender identity issues, as they're not being forced into anything.

Self-identify? Identify what exactly? There is no mystery to what gender you are (unless you are hermaphrodite.) You are what you are.

If you are not happy with this, of course you are free to change it when you are ready.

But why project extremely complicated gender issues onto the child to satisfy your own craving to be "different" parents?

TheZohanS

Kevin Duffy wrote: »

But so, so much of your development, in all areas, comes before starting school. You can't hold their gender identity back until then. You can encourage balance and openness, but not actively hold it back, as the parents in this case seem to be saying they will.

Right I don't have kids so I can't speak with authority here and I'm probably going to get crucified for the analogy...but I have a wee mutt and he always peed like a female dog if he was inside (using his puppy pad,an asborbant pad on a tray) and when he was outside he did the same, honkered down and away he went. Then one day I brought him for a walk and he raised his little leg and peed against a bush, I was proud as punch and he didn't need any mentoring to know how pee like a male dog, it came naturally eventually....and before anyone starts yes I'm well aware babies aren't dogs!

Links234

Kevin Duffy wrote: »

I honestly think you have that completely wrong. If the child has its own identity, that needs to be allowed to develop early, not later on. It's one thing to not force them into something, quite another to actively plan to impede their development, in any area.

The child's identity will develop on it's own though, that sense of self, of whether we are male or female, is something we are born with. My identity developed in spite of my upbringing, so I don't think that the parents of this child are impeding anything. I'd bet the kid will turn out perfectly fine tbh.

Floodric

TheZohan wrote: »

Right I don't have kids so I can't speak with authority here and I'm probably going to get crucified for the analogy...but I have a wee mutt and he always peed like a female dog if he was inside (using his puppy pad,an asborbant pad on a tray) and when he was outside he did the same, honkered down and away he went. Then one day I brought him for a walk and he raised his little leg and peed against a bush, I was proud as punch and he didn't need any mentoring to know how pee like a male dog, it came naturally eventually....and before anyone starts yes I'm well aware babies aren't dogs!

But dont all puppys wee like that, before they reach sexual maturity? I could be wrong

TheZohanS

Floodric wrote: »

But dont all puppys wee like that, before they reach sexual maturity? I could be wrong

Exactly, nature will out.

Kevin Duffy

TheZohan wrote: »

Right I don't have kids so I can't speak with authority here and I'm probably going to get crucified for the analogy...but I have a wee mutt and he always peed like a female dog if he was inside (using his puppy pad,an asborbant pad on a tray) and when he was outside he did the same, honkered down and away he went. Then one day I brought him for a walk and he raised his little leg and peed against a bush, I was proud as punch and he didn't need any mentoring to know how pee like a male dog, it came naturally eventually....and before anyone starts yes I'm well aware babies aren't dogs!

Yes, but I'm gonna guess you didn't refuse to tell people what the puppy was, in the hope that it would make its own choice of píssing stance when the time came.

FWIW, I don't buy into the argument that you have to have kids to comment on these things - we were all children, some of us are siblings, we are or might be parents,we have parents around us to see what they do etc, so we all know something about it and it is in our nature as humans. Being argued down for not having kids is facistic.
Or, as Frasier put it so much better than I could, "I can't wait to have kids so I can win every argument".

--LOS--

Police! This is TLL, we've been robbed....again!

Kevin Duffy

Links234 wrote: »

I'd bet the kid will turn out perfectly fine tbh.

I hope you're right, but I doubt it. Not all conformity is good obviously, but I have a suspicion these kids will have a lot of issues, in particular the last one.

TheZohanS

Kevin Duffy wrote: »

Yes, but I'm gonna guess you didn't refuse to tell people what the puppy was, in the hope that it would make its own choice of píssing stance when the time came.

He has hairy balls and a willy, people could see.:D