Parents decide to bring up "genderless" child

prinz

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Nothing, that's my point.
Not necessarily as you well know. You know what it means to be transgender/transexual I assume??

So it is going by the tiniest of percentage chances then. Great way to raise a kid I must say. There's a 1% chance your child might want to change their name when they get older, in that case they shoudn't give their kid any name, why did they?

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Well then she could change her name when she's old enough.

Or he/she could change what gender role she wants to fulfill when he/she is old enough.

prinz

Links234 wrote: »

Oh, and another, people are going on about the child being bullied. This is the same kinda thing that comes up with the question of same sex couples adopting is posed... oh no! the kid will be bullied! that's not really on the ball, it's a bit more paranoia of something different.the sky isn't gonna fall people

..and the usual answer is people shouldn't give in to bullies. Which is precisely what this couple seem to be doing...

Seachmall

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

How is letting the child decide warping it?

It's not warping it but not referring to the child as "he" or "she" is completely moot.

If it's a male and it feels like a female it makes absolutely no difference what you call it, the process is the same.

Simply not referring to the child by a gender doesn't change a single thing. If the child does turn to out to feel like the opposite sex (which there is a tiny chance of) it's still going to have to put up with the same sh*t any other person in that situation would. If it doesn't and is like the vast majority of people (whether that be straight or gay just not transgender) I don't see it benefiting the kid in the least, if anything it'll raise issues for them.

The world will still acknowledge it's gender even if the parents don't, and the parents treating it as if it doesn't have a gender could confuse the child more than it should be.

sensibleken

philologos wrote: »

You're conflating sex (biology) and gender (identity).

no she isnt

deirdre_dub

Dean09 wrote: »

@Deirdredub-
To be perfectly honest, and I don't want to offend you but I think your talking out of your arse.

And how could I possibly be offended at a statement like that? :rolleyes: :mad:

These parents are setting their child up for a life of torment and bullying just to satisfy their hippy egos.

Your fears around the child being bullied are based on two assumptions.

First, you are assuming that the child is incapable of figuring out, and then asserting, their gender. I can assure you, even as a transgender person, that that fear is ungrounded.

Second, you are assuming stupidity and/or malice on the part of the parents. Do you really think that the parents don't understand the consequences of being transgendered?! I'll bet that the parents are hoping and praying that the gender their child asserts is in accordance with what is between the child's legs. But they have taken the sensible decision that, in case it turns out differently, that they should allow some time for the child to independently assert his/her gender. Which, as I've said, will happen - wild horses can't prevent it from happening!!!

Yes the bully shouldn't be doing what they are doing but its gonna happen and as a parent its your job to protect the kid. Its like saying "I send my son to school in a tutu and high-heels and a stick on tail and he gets bullied, but its not my fault, the bully is to blame". Total bollocks.

Erm - I think the point is that the parent's aren't going to send their kid to school in a tutu, but rather ask the kid what they want to be sent to school in! :rolleyes:

Your contradicting yourself all the time. You're defending this purely because of the situation you're in. You'd be the very first person to say that nobody chooses to be gay or to have gender issues and they're born that way-So by that reasoning this kid will turn out whatever way it's destined to turn out regardless of what their hippy parents do. So why should they just put the child up for public ridicule??

The child will only experience ridicule if it turns out that they are, in fact, transgendered.

deirdre_dub

philologos wrote: »

AudreyHepburn: but their sex is something very significant to who they are. I could imagine warping something as significant as this will impede child development.

So why should they risk warping it by asserting their child's gender before the child him/herself has asserted it?

deirdre_dub

philologos wrote: »

You're conflating sex (biology) and gender (identity).

No I'm not - you are!

A child's identity doesn't necessarily equate with what is between their legs. And that is the whole point of what the parents are doing.

prinz

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Erm - I think the point is that the parent's aren't going to send their kid to school in a tutu, but rather ask the kid what they want to be sent to school in!

..and well all know what a great parenting system that is.

Seachmall

deirdre_dub wrote: »

So why should they risk warping it by asserting their child's gender before the child him/herself has asserted it?

Statistics for one. Their chance of "warping" a non-transgender child by doing this is vastly more likely than them "warping" a transgender child by following tradition (as in recognising it's gender).

deirdre_dub

philologos wrote: »

This is about forcing someone not to know what sex they were born

What?!

You think this child is incapable of learning about biology?!

deirdre_dub

Seachmall wrote: »

Statistics for one. Their chance of "warping" a non-transgender child by doing this is vastly more likely than them "warping" a transgender child by following tradition (as in recognising it's gender).

How does not telling everyone else what is between this kid's legs (something that the kid him/herself can find out very easliy) end up "warping" them?!

deirdre_dub

prinz wrote: »

..and well all know what a great parenting system that is.

Indeed! No doubt the kid will take a number of things into account - how they feel about themselves, the colour of the tutu, the likely reaction of the people in the school . . .

There is an assumption of stupidity on the part of the parents/child being expressed here that is simply astonishing!

Links234

what if bringing kids up this way became the norm?

steddyeddy

philologos wrote: »

You're conflating sex (biology) and gender (identity).

Actually gender within biology is determined by physical features as well as social implications.

Seachmall

deirdre_dub wrote: »

How does not telling everyone else what is between this kid's legs (something that the kid him/herself can find out very easliy) end up "warping" them?!

I put warping in quotes because it's the word you used in the quote and I disagree with that word, I know you were just quoting someone else (and you probably disagree with word too I'd imagine) but for the sake of consistency I used it.

Confusion would be a better word.

prinz

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Indeed! No doubt the kid will take a number of things into account - how they feel about themselves, the colour of the tutu, the likely reaction of the people in the school . . .

I think you are pulling my leg here tbh. No one can be that idiotic that they would argue that every decision should be left up to a small child to make for themselves. You know a child has to be guided and taught responsibility right? That they don't have the capacities to automatically know what's right and wrong, what's good for them and what isn't?

Say the kid wants to eat ice cream and McDonalds every day for every meal. You think the parents should go along with that?

AudreyHepburn

prinz wrote: »

So it is going by the tiniest of percentage chances then. Great way to raise a kid I must say. There's a 1% chance your child might want to change their name when they get older, in that case they shoudn't give their kid any name, why did they?



Or he/she could change what gender role she wants to fulfill when he/she is old enough.

And who are we to tell them when they are old enough?

If my hypothetical three year old daughter comes to me and says 'Mammy I want to wear trousers not dresses' or 'Mammy I want to play with trucks not dollies' what right have I to say ' you have to play with dollies and wear dresses, you are not big enough for trucks or trousers'.

The child will know what he or she wants or who he or she is from a very young age.

You will enough hear gay men and women say they knew for as long as they could remember what they were or at least that they were different in some way from others of their gender (using that term with caution btw).

Duggy747

Doesn't this kid have to be legally known as a male or female which will just stamp out this silly idealology?

prinz

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

If my hypothetical three year old daughter comes to me and says 'Mammy I want to wear trousers not dresses' or 'Mammy I want to play with trucks not dollies' what right have I to say ' you have to play with dollies and wear dresses, you are not big enough for trucks or trousers'.

Eh who has said you should say that? It isn't even relevant to the point it is supposed to be a response to.

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

The child will know what he or she wants or who he or she is from a very young age.

You are contradicting yourself here. If the child will know who he or she is from a very young age, where is the harm in just telling people he is a boy or she is a girl. If he/she will know at such a young age that the label doesn't fit and can seek to change that or act according to the other?

prinz

Links234 wrote: »

what if bringing kids up this way became the norm?

What if literally cooking your child in a mircrowave became the norm? That's been done by parents..

sensibleken

prinz wrote: »

What if literally cooking your child in a mircrowave became the norm? That's been done by parents..

yes, thats the same

Seachmall

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

If my hypothetical three year old daughter comes to me and says 'Mammy I want to wear trousers not dresses' or 'Mammy I want to play with trucks not dollies' what right have I to say ' you have to play with dollies and wear dresses, you are not big enough for trucks or trousers'.

The child will know what he or she wants or who he or she is from a very young age.

A child wants whatever is fun. Nobody is saying you've to force blue clothes and trucks on boys and pink clothes and dolls and girls.

prinz

sensibleken wrote: »

yes, thats the same

Ridiculous reply to a ridiculous question tbh. What if it became the norm.... oh well then my attitude towards it now would completely change..

philologos

deirdre_dub wrote: »

What?!

You think this child is incapable of learning about biology?!

I never said that. You're introducing a lot of confusion where there is none necessary which could have impacts on childhood development.

It's fine if people decide to change their identity and appearance later in life, but to suggest that we should all be raised in a way where something as important is kept from is simply absurd.

Although I've suggested I'm the one who could be nuts, but I don't think so!

goat2

El Weirdo wrote: »

The fact that they named the child Storm is worse if you ask me.

that will leave one big storm in his/her head, big identity crises down the road,

deirdre_dub

Seachmall wrote: »

I put warping in quotes because it's the word you used in the quote and I disagree with that word, I know you were just quoting someone else (and you probably disagree with word too I'd imagine) but for the sake of consistency I used it.

Confusion would be a better word.

How does not telling everyone else what is between the kids legs (something that the kid themself can find out very easily) end up confusing them?!

sensibleken

philologos wrote: »

I never said that. You're introducing a lot of confusion where there is none necessary which could have impacts on childhood development.

It's fine if people decide to change their identity and appearance later in life, but to suggest that we should all be raised in a way where something as important is kept from is simply absurd.

Although I've suggested I'm the one who could be nuts, but I don't think so!

the fact you keep saying 'decide to change their identity' seems to me that you dont understand that transgenderism is a physical condition whereby the brain is physically a different gender than the rest of the body. It is not like an idea that can be changed.

deirdre_dub

prinz wrote: »

I think you are pulling my leg here tbh. No one can be that idiotic that they would argue that every decision should be left up to a small child to make for themselves. You know a child has to be guided and taught responsibility right? That they don't have the capacities to automatically know what's right and wrong, what's good for them and what isn't?

Say the kid wants to eat ice cream and McDonalds every day for every meal. You think the parents should go along with that?

Again, you are assuming a level of stupidity and/or malice on the part of the parents that there is simply no evidence for.

What you also seem to be saying is that parents should decide how a child may behave in terms of gender, and not allow anything that strays outside that.

deirdre_dub

philologos wrote: »

I never said that. You're introducing a lot of confusion where there is none necessary which could have impacts on childhood development.

Again, how is it confusing to the child not to tell everyone else what is between the child's legs - something the child sees every time it is naked?

It's fine if people decide to change their identity and appearance later in life

How many times am I going to have to tell you that transgender people don't decide their gender! :mad:

but to suggest that we should all be raised in a way where something as important is kept from is simply absurd.

And how many times am I going to have to say that this cannot happen - there is no way a child can keep their gender from the world for an extended period of time. This is the battle cry of transgender people - I tried for a very very long time to keep my gender from the world, and I simply couldn't.

Morlar

Transgender people or whatever they prefer to be called are not what this thread is about. It's about parents raising a child in a way that is abnormal.