Native tree/shrub shelter in challenging location

johngalway

Hi folks,

Cross posting this, I hope no one minds as it may get me more info, if that's a problem, please move as you see fit.

Basically I am looking to split my farm into paddocks into the future. To do this I require additional shelter both for animals and to improve my grass potential. I won't be planting in bunches but rather in lines around paddocks, if that makes sense, like hedges but not hedges... What I want to do is reduce the viciousness of the wind that can be around here at times by making windbreaks, make life easier on everyone and every thing.

I want to do this the easiest, cheapest way I can. I've enough work on already and the farm budget is busy elsewhere

I want to plant native species. Don't know a huge amount on the subject but I have been Googling species like:

Rowan Mountain Ash Tree
Blackthorn
Hawthorn
Scots Pine
Sycamore
Downey Birch
Black Alder
Trembling Poplar/Aspen
Willow

So, the land quality isn't good. Done a soil test before and I believe the PH is around 5 or so. It's described as poor peat grazing, read shallow blanket bog that's been grazed and a (very) little improved. The site is exposed to sometimes very windy conditions. Not far from the sea at all but I don't believe salt will be a problem here.

From my own (very) limited knowledge of the subject I'll need to do various things like prepare the soil for planting, I do have access to some quite old sheep/straw manure from a shed, not sure if it could be described as "rotted" as it's just sat there indoors.

The young trees/shrubs will need to be protected from the sheep. Sheep wire fencing isn't an option for this as it'd prove too costly for me. I have been thinking of some sort of individual close mesh plastic netting around each tree?

Times of year to do this, not a clue...

Can most/all/any of these species be grown from cuttings directly into the ground? Or what's the cheapest/easiest/most effective way to ensure success of my project.

Am open to suggestion on species and methods And anything I've missed, which I'm sure is quite a bit!

ATB,

John

Red Sheds

Hi
I dont know much about the planting techniques, but you will have to protect them from animals, not only farm animals but wild ones as well. I planted some Oak last year and hares chewed the bark from around the bottoms of some of them, I should have protected them. Like you I will be planting more native species this year and found the following two websites good to give information on native Irish species and the types of land and conditions they prefer. Apart from that I am going to get a good garden centre to advise me.

http://www.nativewoodlandtrust.ie/
http://www.treecouncil.ie/index.html

ravima

I'd stay away from blackthorn. Its very difficult to keep in check, spreads out and has vicious thorns.

I'd be inclined to run with whitethorn. it can be trimmed to any height, has nice blossom, fairly dense and stockproof, very bird friendly and grows well.

Thats my tuppence worth. I set a load of it under the AEOS scheme.

johngalway

I won't be looking to trim anything really, not looking for hedges. Just want to knock the spite out of the wind generally

Oh yeah, forgot Holly on my list :rolleyes:

LostCovey

johngalway wrote: »

I won't be looking to trim anything really, not looking for hedges. Just want to knock the spite out of the wind generally

Oh yeah, forgot Holly on my list :rolleyes:

pH 5? Peat?

Only one option I would think.

Gorse/Furze/Whin.

You can get sterile varieties that don't set seed, they are used on golf courses.

LC

Oldtree

Sounds like a very difficult starting point for any trees. What a challange.

The starting point for you would be to see what is already growing in the area, see what is doing well and what isnt.

Take your time with your final decision as the optimum time to plant is in non frozen ground between the start of november and the end of february (roots start to grow after this point). The best time to buy plants is october/november when the best stock is available. They can then be stored in a temporary hole until needed.

Once you have an idea of what is already doing well in the area post again. I and others can give you advice as to plant sizes to buy, approximate prices, density, planting methods, pruning, etc.

I am not a believer in planting into prepared ground or using fertilisers as the plants have to learn to live where they are planted.

Evergreen trees like leylandii are not good windbreaks more wind diverters. Recent trials show that the wind can be slowed down by a maximum of 50% using deciduous trees made into hedges, such as alder (used now in england around orchards) as well as the leaf litter improving the soil. Alder also set nitrogen into the soil.

vanderbadger

johngalway wrote: »

Hi folks,

Cross posting this, I hope no one minds as it may get me more info, if that's a problem, please move as you see fit.

Basically I am looking to split my farm into paddocks into the future. To do this I require additional shelter both for animals and to improve my grass potential. I won't be planting in bunches but rather in lines around paddocks, if that makes sense, like hedges but not hedges... What I want to do is reduce the viciousness of the wind that can be around here at times by making windbreaks, make life easier on everyone and every thing.

I want to do this the easiest, cheapest way I can. I've enough work on already and the farm budget is busy elsewhere

I want to plant native species. Don't know a huge amount on the subject but I have been Googling species like:

Rowan Mountain Ash Tree
Blackthorn
Hawthorn
Scots Pine
Sycamore
Downey Birch
Black Alder
Trembling Poplar/Aspen
Willow

So, the land quality isn't good. Done a soil test before and I believe the PH is around 5 or so. It's described as poor peat grazing, read shallow blanket bog that's been grazed and a (very) little improved. The site is exposed to sometimes very windy conditions. Not far from the sea at all but I don't believe salt will be a problem here.

From my own (very) limited knowledge of the subject I'll need to do various things like prepare the soil for planting, I do have access to some quite old sheep/straw manure from a shed, not sure if it could be described as "rotted" as it's just sat there indoors.

The young trees/shrubs will need to be protected from the sheep. Sheep wire fencing isn't an option for this as it'd prove too costly for me. I have been thinking of some sort of individual close mesh plastic netting around each tree?

Times of year to do this, not a clue...

Can most/all/any of these species be grown from cuttings directly into the ground? Or what's the cheapest/easiest/most effective way to ensure success of my project.

Am open to suggestion on species and methods And anything I've missed, which I'm sure is quite a bit!

ATB,

John

i dont know how you feel about beech hedging but all i could tell you is its tough, Im a few miles from sea on high ground, its very hard to get any kinda hedging/trees to grow in exposed spots at my place, I planted a hedge for reps a few years back, mostly beech with holly and willow and a few other bits and pieces thru it, i think everything is dead except the beech, I wouldnt say its thriving but its still alive thru frost and all so its really hardy

JohnBoy

LostCovey wrote: »

pH 5? Peat?

Only one option I would think.

Gorse/Furze/Whin.

You can get sterile varieties that don't set seed, they are used on golf courses.

LC

you're quite possibly right, but could you imagine anything more soul destroying for a man on rough ground like that than actually planting gorse

In fact wasnt john considering harvesting it for firewood recently!!!!

I think if the ground suits the whitethorn would be a good job, cut it at the butt and it'll thicken out nicely, cant imagine it's too palatable to sheep either, but then again they're proven to be pretty dumb animals so who knows

blue5000

Hi John,

Somebody asked already, what grows around you? I don't know how it will stand up to wind but Alder is doing really well for me on cutaway bog. It fixes N, but would need some rock phosphate at planting. It would act as a nurse for oak I reckon.

There are 2 oak varities here, sessile is one and can't remember the second one. One of them will tolerate poorer soil better than the other one. Is there any mountain ash(rowan) growing around you? It has red berries later in the autumn.

Hope this helps.

doghunter

I would tend to agree with Oldtree in regards to buying plants in Oct/Nov. The pines / gorse and hollies should all be potted not bareroot, the other whips can all be bareroot at that stage of the year. The best way to find out what will grow on your farm is to buy a small selection of plants and plant these at a few different locations to see what grows best. What grows well on one part of the farm may not grow as well at another site due wind/ salt air / ground too wet or too acidic. These plants should only cost depending on size 30 - 40cent / plant. I would recommend plants that 40 -60cm tall as these plants cost less and have a better chance of survival due to being small, there is not too much pressure on the root system. If you buy taller plants they cost more and you will have to cut them back ( or lay them) so that they will produce a thick hedge/ wind break. As for guards on them to prevent them being eaten there are special rabbit guards from landscape centers or nurseries but these will cost a bit, the cheapest option maybe to buy cheap chicken wire and just wrap some around them, I have done this myself and found that this works well but I only have a problem with rabbits!!. As for soil prep work , Get a spade and just plant them unless you intend to compost them every year this will just give you a false hope of what will live and what will not. Any other help needed on varieties or spacing / lay out just pm me .

johngalway

I took a few photos earlier on of some of the trees in the neighbours little wood along side of me. His wood is lower down than my land and the land would be a bit better than some of where I'm thinking of planting my poor unfortunates

johngalway

Oldtree wrote: »

I am not a believer in planting into prepared ground or using fertilisers as the plants have to learn to live where they are planted.

Evergreen trees like leylandii are not good windbreaks more wind diverters. Recent trials show that the wind can be slowed down by a maximum of 50% using deciduous trees made into hedges, such as alder (used now in england around orchards) as well as the leaf litter improving the soil. Alder also set nitrogen into the soil.

Very informative post Oldtree, thanks.

The advice regarding not fertilizing sounds good to me, rather a hardy tree suited to the location than an artificially juiced up thing that'll die on me.

vanderbadger wrote: »

i dont know how you feel about beech hedging but all i could tell you is its tough, Im a few miles from sea on high ground, its very hard to get any kinda hedging/trees to grow in exposed spots at my place, I planted a hedge for reps a few years back, mostly beech with holly and willow and a few other bits and pieces thru it, i think everything is dead except the beech, I wouldnt say its thriving but its still alive thru frost and all so its really hardy

My only problem with hedging at the moment is the cost of double fencing, I just can't afford it out of the farm budget. So my alternative is plenty of trees, protected individually. Then, I will have some type of shelter started at least, and in the future I can set about hedging if I decide that's the way to go

blue5000 wrote: »

Hi John,

Somebody asked already, what grows around you? I don't know how it will stand up to wind but Alder is doing really well for me on cutaway bog. It fixes N, but would need some rock phosphate at planting. It would act as a nurse for oak I reckon.

There are 2 oak varities here, sessile is one and can't remember the second one. One of them will tolerate poorer soil better than the other one. Is there any mountain ash(rowan) growing around you? It has red berries later in the autumn.

Hope this helps.

Yeah I've been looking at alder, looks like one of the species I will pick to give a go alright. Sessile oak is the one for the poorer soils I think.

doghunter wrote: »

I would tend to agree with Oldtree in regards to buying plants in Oct/Nov. The pines / gorse and hollies should all be potted not bareroot, the other whips can all be bareroot at that stage of the year. The best way to find out what will grow on your farm is to buy a small selection of plants and plant these at a few different locations to see what grows best. What grows well on one part of the farm may not grow as well at another site due wind/ salt air / ground too wet or too acidic. These plants should only cost depending on size 30 - 40cent / plant. I would recommend plants that 40 -60cm tall as these plants cost less and have a better chance of survival due to being small, there is not too much pressure on the root system. If you buy taller plants they cost more and you will have to cut them back ( or lay them) so that they will produce a thick hedge/ wind break. As for guards on them to prevent them being eaten there are special rabbit guards from landscape centers or nurseries but these will cost a bit, the cheapest option maybe to buy cheap chicken wire and just wrap some around them, I have done this myself and found that this works well but I only have a problem with rabbits!!. As for soil prep work , Get a spade and just plant them unless you intend to compost them every year this will just give you a false hope of what will live and what will not. Any other help needed on varieties or spacing / lay out just pm me .

Thanks Doghunter, you're right that different trees will suit different parts of the farm. That's something I'll need to put more research and thought into and get down on paper for my own benefit. As with Oldtree above and the fertilizing, no I'd not like to be composting every year when I could be doing other work. I mentioned it as I thought it had to be done in the very start when planting. The chicken wire is a good idea, I feel a bit of an idiot for not thinking of that Not seeing the wood for the trees I guess :pac: (had to be said eventually...). I've a lot of hares, but the problem will be the sheep. There used to be rabbits here before I owned the farm but mixy wiped them out, must be twenty years ago and they never returned.

treefan

Had a variety of trees planted 3 years ago (East Galway) and the best growing by far has been the alder! They have done best in the dampest ground with good hedgerow cover. Have done better than the confiers!

Hope this helps

stanlea

From photos it looks like you could make a go of Ash,Hazel,Alder,Sycamore and Beech.

Sycamore and Beech are not native.

Ash,Hazel and Alder would make a decent mix as the Ash and Alder would grow very quickly (up to 13 meters in 15 years for Alder) and the Hazel is more of a shrub which creates a under-storey and helps diffuse wind.

You could try a few whitethorn in there aswell (for the bees!)

Not too sure about the Oaks but think Sessile Oak requires more acidic soil than Common Oak.

Should add that Hares are very fond of cutting Ash whips in half!

pakalasa

Don't put Alder in a hedge. It grows quicker than most other trees/shrubs and will smoother other plants around it. It ends up leaving the hedge with a big hole, where stock will just walk through. I have it in a few mostly whitethorn hedges and it has destroyed the area. I think of it as more of a weed.
Hard to beat the whitethorn. Where I live, it's definitely the hardiest of all. It looks well in full flower too and you couldn't kill it.
Copper beech is becoming popular too as it holds the dead leaves during the winter and it survives very harsh cold weather too.

johngalway

Yeah I've read that about hares, apparently white emulsion puts them off as they hate the smell of it?

What may be a better description of my goal would be screens of trees planted around my future paddocks, making a wind break, rather than a hedge hedge.

I don't trust anything that isn't either a very high barbed wire topped stone wall, a trailer, a pen, or a sheep wire fence to hold my blackface ewes They have a passion about seeing the world...

OK, I need to take a day now and trawl through more info on all this to help digest it all.

Got to say, you're all being very helpful here, am learning loads, thanks!

Oldtree

any hedge that you want to be stockproof will have to be managed, ie trimmed every year. Looking at the photos, ash hazel and hawthorn sounds like a good mix for you. I always buy plants of a meter high and cut back the top so there is a good reserve in the roots for establishment of the tree and can be planted straight into and are above the sward, with no need to kill off the grass around it. my successful planting method keeps as much of the structure and texture of the soil intact which overcomes the windy conditions that we get here in spring and early summer.

The_Conductor

Another species not mentioned here- that Coillte made use of in East Galway- is Lodge Pole pine. Its particularly suitable for the more exposed sites- and as long you're only interested in a wind break- it will get there, eventually (though the timber will be crap of the highest order- don't imagine you'll ever get anything out of it).

Alder and Birch are colonising species- often invading sites before anything else has the tenacity to grow there. Both are reasonably satisfied to grow in acidic conditions (however growth would naturally be limited by the extent of the exposure of the site). I even saw ash in one of your pictures- which was quite surprising.

We did a lot of planting on a poor acidic site in Sligo- and contrary to our expectations (as we had a flock of sheep)- we found far more frost damage, than animal damage. You can get piping strips that wrap around the base of the stems to protect them from sheep or other herbivores- they're often used on a limited basis in residential gardens- I don't know how feasible it might be to do large scale planting with them........

Any idea of the age of the trees in your neighbours?

johngalway

smccarrick wrote: »

Any idea of the age of the trees in your neighbours?

Not specifically, that little wood has been there longer than me (32).

Not made on the LPP, I did come across it on various sites.

Tell me more about (black?) Alder and colonization? Am I inviting in trouble if I plant it? My thinking is to have trees where I decide to put them, not really where they decide to put themselves. Half wondering about asking if new trees can be transplanted elsewhere, then I think, is that causing yet more trouble It'd have to be the N fixing tree wouldn't it...

CJhaughey

Alder does self seed pretty well but I like it as a tree, its hardy, fast growing, and looks good.
The wood burns well when seasoned and makes the best sawdust for smoking fish that I know of.
I heated my house with a trailer of Alder 2 winters ago, it was a big tree 24" DBH
If you see the seedlings coming up you can just dig them out and replant them or chop them off. Their handy to have to fill holes in windbreaks.

MOSSAD

May I suggest you definitely go for some holly-it makes a great understorey tree, ie tolerates shade, and provides colour and food via berries. Rowan is great for flowers and berries, and bothe these trees provide a seed reservoir which will in future be spread by birds and perhaps help create a more diverse mix in our more commercial plantations.
How about whitebeam? It ought to grow well on limestone soil, scots pine for winter shelter and textural difference, and common cherry for flower, timber and fruits.. Remember also that if well tended for the lower 2-3 m, some of these trees when well established might be valuable for specialist lumber uses. Happy planting.:D

johngalway

Leaning heavily towards alder, willow and ash at the moment. Other species may well make an appearance but I think those will be the main ones. With the prices of these trees I think this will be a rolling project for some years. Though I have not as yet contacted any sellers, other things at the top of the list at the moment.

The_Conductor

MOSSAD wrote: »

Remember also that if well tended for the lower 2-3 m, some of these trees when well established might be valuable for specialist lumber uses.

Thats a large part of the problem- I don't know how familiar you are with the area- however exposure levels are such that a total height of 2-3m might even be optimistic on much of the site. That said- good choices.

LostCovey

smccarrick wrote: »

Another species not mentioned here- that Coillte made use of in East Galway- is Lodge Pole pine. Its particularly suitable for the more exposed sites- and as long you're only interested in a wind break- it will get there, eventually (though the timber will be crap of the highest order- don't imagine you'll ever get anything out of it).

I thought another factor against Lodgepole pine was its shallow rooting system.

Isn't that the species that falls over in waves in Irish forestry plantations? I am open to correction, but I think this was planted in big numbers in the early days of forestry on poor soil in Galway & Mayo, & then it fell out of favour because of its poor rooting and instability.

LostCovey

MOSSAD

It's more the nursery practice of undercutting lodgepole that contributes to instability-the taproot is removed and never recovers leaving secondary roots to take over. If you pull up self-seeded lodgepole seedlings say on a forest road/site they will have a strong central root and long secondaries.
Didn't realise that the site was so exposed. Word of warning re alder-there is a disease which has hit alder over the last 7 years called Melamsporidium. It kills some/all of the crown; although the tree usually recovers it distorts the shape. Go for Italian alder which is unaffected, although you want native trees!! Still a beautiful tree.With respect to prices- shop around, there is plenty of room to haggle, and check out the classifieds online to get a feel for what the market is.

reilig

johngalway wrote: »

Leaning heavily towards alder, willow and ash at the moment. Other species may well make an appearance but I think those will be the main ones. With the prices of these trees I think this will be a rolling project for some years. Though I have not as yet contacted any sellers, other things at the top of the list at the moment.

John,

If you are looking for willow I will have cuttings next winter that will be suitable for planting, free of charge of course - if you want to pay the postage or collect them somewhere that might suit you? Contact me in October or November and I will be able to put together a bundle for you.

I wonder would there be any sale for willow cuttings? I have a stack of them growing on willow tree butts that I coppaced for REPS. If i can get sale for them, I'll sell them, otherwise I'm just going to run over them with the hedgecutter. Ebay is calling

johngalway

That's very kind of you to offer Reilig, thanks, I'll take you up on that offer

reilig

johngalway wrote: »

That's very kind of you to offer Reilig, thanks, I'll take you up on that offer

No problem at all. They will literally grow anywhere. All you have to do is slice the butt at an angle with a knife or cutters, dip it in rooting powder (can be bought in most garden centres very cheap) and stick them in the ground. They will really take off. They will grow better in wet ground, but still will grow if the ground is dry too!!

Just remind me and I will get them for you

CJhaughey

Thats a great offer, willow grows very well.
John can be plaiting a stockproof fence for himself if he does it right:D

johngalway

CJhaughey wrote: »

Thats a great offer, willow grows very well.
John can be plaiting a stockproof fence for himself if he does it right:D

Men in white coats would be coming looking for me CJ, from Health, not AG :pac:

johngalway

Digging this thread up again

With kind thanks to Reilig I now have a number of Willow plants in the ground. Just waiting on some protectors to arrive before I can let the sheep into that part of the farm again. I am thinking of buying some timber fence rails from the local supply centre as supports. I can cut into lengths, then run them through the table saw, might get 12 odd shaped stakes out of a €5 something rail, thoughts?

Saw a nifty idea on a Canadian site, bit of wire put through old/cheap water hose yo use as a tie, might get away with baling twine ( ) but it'd be more prone to rotting.

I have ordered some ash and alder trees, also those rabbit protectors - have no rabbits mind, but am hoping they'll work on sheep too.

That'll be it for a time, maybe until this time next year unless I get a notion...

I have in mind to then put in some Hazel, Hawthorn, Downy Birch, and Holly in the next "wave".

I'd like to take a punt on some Sessile Oaks as well, not many, 5 or so, just to see if they'd make out. I'd like an Oak tree or five

Sort of making it up as I go along with all the kind help I'm receiving on here

The_Conductor

Sounds like you're going to have a very interesting collection of mostly native trees John- I'm sure they'll look very impressive once they get established.

treefan

well done on the progress. great that guys like yourself are making a contribution to forestry here.

Im thinking abiout ordering tubex treeguards that are supposed to be sheep-proof (as long as you have a good stake or 3). Theres only supplier though in Ireland and are expensive once you factor in delivery compared to UK prices

johngalway

I got these below, not arrived yet, hope they'll do the job

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/390226370532?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649