**Spoilers** Series 6, Episode 6 - "The Almost People"

off.the.walls

Don't forget theres a 4 month gap between the impossible astronaut and day of the moon i'd say thats when she was kidnapped.

Doctor DooM

Ganger Amy is real Amy though, effectively, right? She was "powered" by her.

ríomhaire

pixelburp wrote: »

So in many ways, although it doesn't cheapen the shock at the end of the episode, it does cheapen the two parter we've just gone and watched. In effect those two episodes existed purely to prepare the basis for the ending, and then lead us into the finale. I think that makes it the worst offender of TV filler in some time!

What? An episode whose only purpose to advance the plot is the opposite of filler.

Penn

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Ganger Amy is real Amy though, effectively, right? She was "powered" by her.

Yes. That's why The Doctor was telling her that they'll find her and are coming for her, and also why Amy kept seeing Patchy. The Ganger was being controlled by Amy. When the Doctor melted the Ganger-Amy, thats when the real Amy woke up and could see where she was. Sorry, didnt explain it great the first time

pixelburp

ríomhaire wrote: »

What? An episode whose only purpose to advance the plot is the opposite of filler.

The last 30 seconds of part 2 advanced the plot; add in perhaps the exposition scene in part 1 where we learned what The Flesh was and how it worked, but everything in between felt like pure filler & faffing about. Seemed like the 2-parter was just stalling for time to get us to the end. One thing's for sure - there was certainly no need for this adventure to be a 2-parter.

Yahew

pixelburp wrote: »

The last 30 seconds of part 2 advanced the plot; add in perhaps the exposition scene in part 1 where we learned what The Flesh was and how it worked, but everything in between felt like pure filler & faffing about. Seemed like the 2-parter was just stalling for time to get us to the end. One thing's for sure - there was certainly no need for this adventure to be a 2-parter.

I thought it was good. Mid-season is always filler. This was a filler, to a certain extent, but it:

1) Advanced the plot by introducing a new perennial "monster" = the Flesh
2) Had some interesting moral conundrums. In reality who were the bad guys in this one? Clearly the immoral actor were the humans who let the flesh to rot.
3) Introduced moral issues regarding who is rightfully human. Given this is also a tc series for kids thats pretty advanced.

Nobody seems to wonder about why there was a Doctor ganger. Maybe the Doctor actually meant to have that happen, it didnt happen accidentally. We didnt see exactly how.

The sonic screw-driver might be an anomaly, I dont think we can ask for perfection.

Yahew

Moffat just tweeted a pre-quel to episode 7

Spoilers. You need to have watched 6.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/dw/videos/p00h74x2

EDIT:

apparently doesn't work in Ireland. Basq's embedded youtube ( below) is the same thing

Penn

off.the.walls wrote: »

Don't forget theres a 4 month gap between the impossible astronaut and day of the moon i'd say thats when she was kidnapped.

I think someone already said that on Confidential,

Stephen Moffat said it happened before The Impossible Astronaut, though I didnt see that myself so I don't know

As for the sonic screwdrivers, I'd say both of them had one. I think Ganger-Doctor gave his to the real one to make people think he was the real Doctor, as in "He needs my sonic screwdriver because I'm the real Doctor and he's the fake", whereas they both actually had one. Although I'd have to see the scene where they're both behind the control panel to see if they both used one or which one had it then

Basq

Yahew wrote: »

Moffat just tweeted a pre-quel to episode 7

Spoilers. You need to have watched 6.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/dw/videos/p00h74x2

"Not Available In Your Area"...

.. waiting for the YT embed!

EDIT: This is probably it..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiB3SdlQ6sI

will56

Is Ganger Amy the reason the Doctor has been telling Amy to "Breath" in each episode ?

Yahew

Possibly telling real amy to breathe - via the ganger.

ríomhaire

pixelburp wrote: »

The last 30 seconds of part 2 advanced the plot; add in perhaps the exposition scene in part 1 where we learned what The Flesh was and how it worked, but everything in between felt like pure filler & faffing about. Seemed like the 2-parter was just stalling for time to get us to the end. One thing's for sure - there was certainly no need for this adventure to be a 2-parter.

It probably could have worked for as a one-episode piece but it's Doctor Who. This is a monster of the week show. Every episode is not supposed to advance the plot. I don't see why you're complaining about this. The Empty Child only advanced the plot of the show in one way: Introducing Jack. The only other thing that showed up again is the sonic blaster features in River's screwdriver in one episode. The nanogenes have never been mentioned again. Is it a terrible example of filler?

These episode on the other hand introduced and explored in depth something interesting that is relevant to the overall series plot. How the hell can you say this is a worse offender for filler than The Curse of the Black Spot, which had nothing to do with anything? Filler does not mean episode you personally disliked.

will56

Thats what I was trying to say. Its a good link then between the previous episodes and the cliffhanger at the end along with the eye-patch lady

Yahew

To clear something up , there was a woman in confidential who said Amy was the flesh from episode one, however she didnt say where in episode one.

Its not available online now, but I recall that Amy definitely thought she was pregnant, and then knew she wasn't. Somewhere in that transition she was taken, in my opinion.

(Also she felt she needed to tell the doctor about the pregnancy, not Rory).

Cyndaquil

I thought it was a good episode, maybe not quite up there with "The Satan Pit" but I felt it worked as a two parter.

Regarding the ending, was anyone else reminded of the Dark Tower VI? Or was that just me.

Killer_banana

Yahew wrote: »

(Also she felt she needed to tell the doctor about the pregnancy, not Rory).

Forget the exact details but she said something to the Doctor along the lines of 'I told you before Rory because I was afraid time travel had or could have done something to harm the baby.' Keep in mind this is extremely extreme paraphrasing

Yahew

Right = did manage to find Ep 1. online.

She says she is pregnant at the end of the episode to the Doctor. I now think that the woman in Confidential was mis-speaking - or else she said from episode 1, to mean from episode 1 on. Amy was real then.

Between episode 1 and 2 we have 3 months to contend with, and none of us knows what happened then. The Doctor is (allows himself to be) captured, Canton apparently works for the government but doesn't, and the others are on the run. That might be when Amy was changed. Its the easiest explanation.

There is something else about Ep. 1 which might have been lost in the wash. The Silence get Amy to tell the doctor that she is pregnant. Or rather - in the toilet scene - it tells her to tell the Doctor the thing he must know, and the thing he must not know. Its fairly well signalled that Amy forgets the silence but not the need to tell the Doctor something. She says she needs to tell the Doctor something when she comes out of the toilet. She says it again, when she is with Canton later, in Florida when they are following the child's signal to it's source. She says it just before the end of that episode ( that she must tell the Doctor), and eventually tells him she is pregnant at the very end when they follow the child's scream, just before the shooting at the astronaut.

( By the way a huge amount of the first two episodes remain unexplained. Who signaled them to go to Florida, for instance).

So the silence planted the idea - the idea to tell the doctor about her pregnancy- in Amy's mind. In some ways that makes no sense, as the Silence are helping the doctor. By seeing her on-off pregnancy in the Tardis, the doctor worked out she was fake.

They also told her to tell him what he should never know. I take that to mean the death. which she did eventually, and that is where we are at.

Yahew

She tells him she is not pregnant when they escape to the Tardis in episode 2, about 10 minutes in. Thats their first conversation. The Doctor is implanting the glowing red recorders in the palms of the companions. When he comes to Amy he sees something odd about her. He implants her, and asks her is she alright. She says she is "better" - she is not pregnant after all. What he sees as odd, or off, could be the Flesh. I think the doctor has suspected this change for a while.

Yahew

Yahew wrote: »

( By the way a huge amount of the first two episodes remain unexplained. Who signaled them to go to Florida, for instance).

I don't get this part. What do you mean?

Yahew

The child on the phone. Was that her( him?) acting unilaterally, or was it the Silence prompting. If the latter what did the silence gain from it?

Eyespy

Yahew wrote: »

Right = did manage to find Ep 1. online.

She says she is pregnant at the end of the episode to the Doctor. I now think that the woman in Confidential was mis-speaking - or else she said from episode 1, to mean from episode 1 on. Amy was real then.

Between episode 1 and 2 we have 3 months to contend with, and none of us knows what happened then. The Doctor is - allows himself to be - captured, Canton apparently works for the government but doesn't, and the others are on the run. That might be when Amy was changed. Its the easiest explanation.

There is something else about Ep. 1 which might have been lost in the wash. The Silence get Amy to tell the doctor that she is pregnant. Or rather it tells her to tell the Doctor the thing he must know, and the thing he must not know. Its fairly well signalled that Amy forgets the silence but not the need to tell the Doctor something. She says she needs to tell the Doctor something when she comes out of the toilet. She says it again, when she is with Canton later, in Florida when they are following the child's signal to it's source. She says it just before the end of that episode ( that she must tell the Doctor), and eventually tells him she is pregnant at the very end when they follow the child's scream, just before the shooting at the astronaut.

( By the way a huge amount of the first two episodes remain unexplained. Who signaled them to go to Florida, for instance).

So the silence planted the idea - the idea to tell the doctor about her pregnancy- in Amy's mind. In some ways that makes no sense, as the Silence are helping the doctor. By seeing her on-off pregnancy in the Tardis, the doctor worked out she was fake.

They also told her to tell him what he should never know. I take that to mean the death. which she did eventually, and that is where we are at.

I mentioned the you will tell him... on the last page Yahew. I still can't make out when Amy got exchanged for ganger Amy but going by what the Silence said to her in the toilet in the Impossible Astronaut and again in Day of the Moon "You are Amelia Pond. We do you honour. You will bring the Silence. But your part will soon be over..." I think that she had been switched before the tardis landed in the White House in the Impossible Astronaut. I also think that the Silence was referring to Amy being obliterated in the Tardis.

I'm not sure how Amy will bring the Silence though, is it her pregnancy? This whole business of the child being contained. Is the stormcage where River is contained connected with it? And eye-patch lady seems to be more than a midwife. Being that she's missing an eye, is she an atraxian? I mean the atraxians haven't really been explained, big crystal eyeballs and such but they must have bodies somewhere. And if she is atraxian and they are in enforcement, what's their part in it? As the Silence seem to have all the answers ie Amy being flesh and the flesh is either from the 22nd or 23rd Century, how did the Silence get the flesh to make ganger Amy? Do they have a tardis? And if they do, is that what stabilised Ganger Amy when the Silence was talking to her in the DotM?

I really can't wait to see how it will all be resolved in 45 minutes on Saturday.

Another thing I've just noticed, In the IA when Amy swears on Fish fingers and Custard the Doctor looks at her and goes "My life in your hand, Amelia Pond" Now the doctor always calls Amy 'Pond' and after this the only time Amy is referred to as Amelia Pond is by the Silence. Could that mean anything? Was the Doctor testing Amy as far back as this?

I am really thinking too hard about this

Yahew

What did you get from the Silence in the toilet which made you think she is a ganger? The only thing we have to go on is the pregnancy.

Eyespy

Yahew wrote: »

What did you get from the Silence in the toilet which made you think she is a ganger? The only thing we have to go on is the pregnancy.

To me, it seemed like the ganger was instructing Amy with the whole"Joy Her name was Joy. Your name is Amelia. You will tell the doctor"
Amy: "Tell him what?"
Silence:"What he must know, and What he must never Know."
Amy: "How do you know about that?"
Silence: "TELL HIM"

Because of the nature of the Silence, forgetting them as soon as you look away, it seems like they spent quite some time communicating with Amy between the IA and DotM. Ok, two conversations isn't really a great deal but in fairness they haven't really interacted with anyone else apart from Canton. So I think that Amy could have been a ganger then and even considering the whole kind of nastiness at the picnic when the Doctor sniped at Amy about putting on a few pounds after she laughed about the wine, I think she was a ganger here and presume the 1103 year old Doctor knew this too.

Again though only a guess. I think the pregnancy may have been a red herring. Real Amy is definitely pregnant but Ganger Amy might have only experienced an echo like what went on between the two Doctors in Saturdays episode which might have explained the continous pregnant/not pregnant by the tardis scanner.

Open to correction though

Eyespy

Eyespy wrote: »

Again though only a guess. I think the pregnancy may have been a red herring. Real Amy is definitely pregnant but Ganger Amy might have only experienced an echo like what went on between the two Doctors in Saturdays episode which might have explained the continous pregnant/not pregnant by the tardis scanner.

Open to correction though

Doctors' obviously not pregnant but they shared an echo thingy on Saturday.

Coldzone

Just a theory for the sonic screwdrivers. The flesh is fully programmable matter and it creates the clothes that the person is wearing aswell as the person so since the Doctor always has the sonic in his pocket it would create 1 of them aswell with the ganger Doctor.

Doctor DooM

so why didn't the doctor make ll the flesh people run into the tardis and permanentise them as then just used the sonic to gloopitise the monster at the end?

Yahew

yeah, and why did he killl fake amy if he thought that gangers were real. This amy has a different set of experiences to the amy in the hospital. She has lived differently for a while, and her experiences were removed ( that is: unless the Doctor knew he shared experiences with his ganger self, so the ganger was he did not really die).


EDIT:

I suppose that is true of "normal" gangers, unlike the ones who became self-aware.

pixelburp

ríomhaire wrote: »

These episode on the other hand introduced and explored in depth something interesting that is relevant to the overall series plot. How the hell can you say this is a worse offender for filler than The Curse of the Black Spot, which had nothing to do with anything? Filler does not mean episode you personally disliked.

Who said I disliked the episode? I never said that. I enjoyed the two-parter, I've already made posts to that effect; but unlike "Black Spot", which was a perfectly serviceable standalone adventure, the recent 2-part story didn't need to store its bolt until the last 30 seconds: we already suspected the Doctor was up to something early in part 1, but that got parked for some by-the-numbers running around. Enjoyable running around, but still just stalling until we got to the big reveal.

I shouldn't be surprised, because half the serialised US shows do the same thing: 40 minutes, standard plot. Last 5? OMGbigCockTeaseForNextWeek.

Mr.Saturn

Yahew wrote: »

yeah, and why did he killl fake amy if he thought that gangers were real. This amy has a different set of experiences to the amy in the hospital. She has lived differently for a while, and her experiences were removed ( that is: unless the Doctor knew he shared experiences with his ganger self, so the ganger was he did not really die).


EDIT:

I suppose that is true of "normal" gangers, unlike the ones who became self-aware.

The Doctor also mentioned that the gangers could be reconstituted
with the sonic screwdriver, so we may see her return next week.

elekid

The big difference between ganger Amy and gangers the Doctor brought into the Tardis at the end is that ganger Amy was a shell which contained the real Amy's mind, as opposed to having a separate mind of it's own, and destroying the shell was the only way to release the real Amys mind back into her own body.

So I don't think the Doctor killed anyone because the real Amy was there with them all along and she experienced everything that happened this season, she just happened to be doing it all from inside a different body, mixed with occasional glimpses of what her real body was seeing.

Brilliant twist anyway, it'll make this season so far really interesting to rewatch.

popebenny16

two small plot things:

the line about the sonic screwdriver at the end was inserted nu SM, but so was the shot of the doctor ganger turning to liquid. That wasnt supposed to be seen so that you would be left thinking he survives.

but you still can, but in a different way.

Yahew

what does nu sm mean?

Jessibelle

Yahew wrote: »

what does nu sm mean?

by Stephen Moffat? just guessing based on keyboard locations and initials though:o

The Mad Hatter

Jessibelle wrote: »

by Stephen Moffat? just guessing based on keyboard locations and initials though:o

Yep, I think His Holiness was typing on his iPhone

popebenny16

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

Yep, I think His Holiness was typing on his iPhone

nope - just cant spell!!