ActionAid Ireland - door to door dishonesty

Paulw

sendit wrote: »

Unless they have your pin number or look like you theres not a whole pile they can do with them

That's not true at all. :eek:

Setting up a direct debit doesn't require your pin number, nor your likeness. Just your bank details, your address and a signature.

Don't be fooled by these people.

sendit

Paulw wrote: »

That's not true at all. :eek:

Setting up a direct debit doesn't require your pin number, nor your likeness. Just your bank details, your address and a signature.

Don't be fooled by these people.

No what im saying is if aomeone has your bank details if they were to say go into the back to take money out they would need photo ID to do it or if they got your ATM card they would need your pin aswell as alot of other things that they could not get unless you told them.

To set up a Direct Debit yes they only need your account number etc. With them details all they can do is put money into your account and i wouldn't think theres too many people going to do that :pac:

Oryx

They can remove money from your account by dd with those details and a signature. No one is saying the girls were going to go to the bank and scam the account. But they could, theoretically, set up the dd without permission in order to pocket the commission.

sendit

Oryx wrote: »

They can remove money from your account by dd with those details and a signature. No one is saying the girls were going to go to the bank and scam the account. But they could, theoretically, set up the dd without permission in order to pocket the commission.

When you sign for the DD you sign to say that who ever it is ActionAid Ireland in this case that they take the money out not the person who signs up.

They could set it up without permission alright to get the commission but if they already have your bank details they that means you've already said you want to sign up

Paulw

Or they set up a DD to your account, to take money from your account and put it in to their private bank account. All they need is to fill in a DD form, with their bank details, and your bank details. Filling out this form gives them all the information they need.

sendit

Paulw wrote: »

Or they set up a DD to your account, to take money from your account and put it in to their private bank account. All they need is to fill in a DD form, with their bank details, and your bank details. Filling out this form gives them all the information they need.

The DD i set up for what ever company it is the person signing you up have no access to it what so ever

Guy:Incognito

Paulw wrote: »

Or they set up a DD to your account, to take money from your account and put it in to their private bank account. All they need is to fill in a DD form, with their bank details, and your bank details. Filling out this form gives them all the information they need.

They'd want to be the worst thieves ever. Commiting fraud by filling out a DD form and using said fraud to steal money in a completely traceable way and most likely getting caught after the first transaction. Can you even set up a DD between 2 private bank accounts liek that anyway?

Where was all this hysteria when people were (and still do) routinely handing out pieces of paper with their bank details on them as well as a signature? (for the slow people reading this, I'm clearly talkign about cheques)

DanWall

Airtricity called to my door and wanted to set up a DD, when I refused DD, they wanted to put my bank details onto a form. I contacted the bank who said never give your bank details at the door, even if they look genuine.

MitchKoobski

I found myself at the wrath of the auld ones on the street when I stopped contributing to the Parish door-to-door collection every week. Yno when they walk around with the small envelopes for change? I didn't have change and she wasn't getting a tenner. Kept coming anyway.

If someone collecting admits they have a commission just to keep themselves going, then no bother. But when I hear of some getting €10 an hour and then complaining when people won't dontate, feck that.

omahaid

I used to give reasons, excuses etc etc. Now I just repeat over and over again "sorry, not interested". If they use one of those door to door companies I no longer support them out of principle.

TheIrishGrover

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

They'd want to be the worst thieves ever. Commiting fraud by filling out a DD form and using said fraud to steal money in a completely traceable way and most likely getting caught after the first transaction. Can you even set up a DD between 2 private bank accounts liek that anyway?

Where was all this hysteria when people were (and still do) routinely handing out pieces of paper with their bank details on them as well as a signature? (for the slow people reading this, I'm clearly talkign about cheques)

So they don't setup a DD for 200 quid a week or something where people would notice and get straight onto their bank. They'd set it up at something like 5.68 a month or something. People wouldn't notice it and even if they did, many, seeing the odd sum would think it's an insurance DD for something and not query it. All it takes is a few of these coming in every month and you'd have a nice, tidy package coming in. then, they DD it from their account to somewhere else. Again, not saying that these girls are doing it or the charity itself. Of course they're not. But people being so casual with their bank details in this day and age amazes me. "Ah sher, all they can do is put money into your account"? I don't think so. Make a cheap fake work ID, hand over the details in the bank and away you go, withdraw/transfer what you want even.

sendit

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

So they don't setup a DD for 200 quid a week or something where people would notice and get straight onto their bank. They'd set it up at something like 5.68 a month or something. People wouldn't notice it and even if they did, many, seeing the odd sum would think it's an insurance DD for something and not query it. All it takes is a few of these coming in every month and you'd have a nice, tidy package coming in. then, they DD it from their account to somewhere else. Again, not saying that these girls are doing it or the charity itself. Of course they're not. But people being so casual with their bank details in this day and age amazes me. "Ah sher, all they can do is put money into your account"? I don't think so. Make a cheap fake work ID, hand over the details in the bank and away you go, withdraw/transfer what you want even.

Its not as easy as you seem to think it is to set up a DD they would have to be a regerested company or business so they could sign people up to it im fairly sure.

Also im fairly sure the bank only take passports etc as ID witch would be fairly hard to fake. Plus if someone makes a fake ID for someone whos say 50 and there only in there 20's or 30's im sure the bank staff will ask a few more questions.

If someone has your details theres a whole lot ealse they would need aside from ID if they tryed to do it over the phone they would need passwords plus other questions in alot of cases.

The only kind of trouble if heard people have with banks is with online banking witch would be quite easy to get into.

Guy:Incognito

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

So they don't setup a DD for 200 quid a week or something where people would notice and get straight onto their bank. They'd set it up at something like 5.68 a month or something. People wouldn't notice it and even if they did, many, seeing the odd sum would think it's an insurance DD for something and not query it. All it takes is a few of these coming in every month and you'd have a nice, tidy package coming in. then, they DD it from their account to somewhere else. Again, not saying that these girls are doing it or the charity itself. Of course they're not. But people being so casual with their bank details in this day and age amazes me. "Ah sher, all they can do is put money into your account"? I don't think so. Make a cheap fake work ID, hand over the details in the bank and away you go, withdraw/transfer what you want even.

Just to go back to 2 points in my post you quoted. Can someone set up a dd between 2 private accounts?

What about the 2nd one? Bank account number and sort code has been printed on ever cheque written for a long time ( I assume as long as cheques have been in use?) If banks are so protective of people giving out these details, why give them books of slips to pay for stuff everywhere from local shops to private debts?

loads of small DD appearing on a private persons account would raise some eyebrows fairly fast I'd say (again assumign you can set up direct debits between private accounts) and whats the chances of not even one of the people your scamming reading their bank statements and querying it? Failry slim I'd say, seeing as youd need quite a few €5-6 DD each month to make it worthwhile.

And lastly I suppose, where are all the cases of all these DD frauds occurring? As far as I can tell, much like the Jeremy Clarkson thing being blown way out of proportion and dived on to prove a point that wasnt there, it's not much of an issue.

If your bank are letting anyone with the account details and any sort of fake I'd withdraw your money , you should have serious issues with your bank.

sendit

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Just to go back to 2 points in my post you quoted. Can someone set up a dd between 2 private accounts?

What about the 2nd one? Bank account number and sort code has been printed on ever cheque written for a long time ( I assume as long as cheques have been in use?) If banks are so protective of people giving out these details, why give them books of slips to pay for stuff everywhere from local shops to private debts?

loads of small DD appearing on a private persons account would raise some eyebrows fairly fast I'd say (again assumign you can set up direct debits between private accounts) and whats the chances of not even one of the people your scamming reading their bank statements and querying it? Failry slim I'd say, seeing as youd need quite a few €5-6 DD each month to make it worthwhile.

And lastly I suppose, where are all the cases of all these DD frauds occurring? As far as I can tell, much like the Jeremy Clarkson thing being blown way out of proportion and dived on to prove a point that wasnt there, it's not much of an issue.

If your bank are letting anyone with the account details and any sort of fake I'd withdraw your money , you should have serious issues with your bank.

Well said i ment to say in my post how offten do you hear so someone being robbed after signing up to a DD? I dont think i ever have yet people seem to think it happens every day!

Kalimah

You have to be part of the direct debit scheme to set up direct debits from people's accounts. There are God knows how many checks and balances in the process. The originator-Action Aid in this case have to have an originator number. The direct debits are run electronically in their thousands for a charity that size. The money goes directly into Action Aid's main bank account-not some random collector at the door. I know in the charity I work for,that confirmation is sent out to the donor BEFORE the first DD is taken from the account.

Someone else made a good point re cheques and the fact that they have account number bank branch AND signature on them. No one seems to have a problem issuing cheques. I worked in the financial sector too and the only fraud I ever saw was a customer's grand daughter stealing the woman's cheque book and wrinting cheques to herself. Fairly stupid as it was no time til she was caught. Another case was someone writing down a pin and someone in their workplace stole a good bit of money from them. And yet another was the old "your PC has a virus" phone call where the person gave thir credit card details over the phone to someone who phoned them out of the blue.

Guy:Incognito

Kalimah wrote: »

You have to be part of the direct debit scheme to set up direct debits from people's accounts. There are God knows how many checks and balances in the process. The originator-Action Aid in this case have to have an originator number. .

There we are. The only thing that was in doubt (whether a dd could be set up between two private accounts ) is cleared up.

So if anyone would like to list the dangers of someone having your account number and sort code, taking in to account the information in the thread, fire away.

ch750536

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7174760.stm

'The Top Gear host revealed his account numbers after rubbishing the furore over the loss of 25 million people's personal details on two computer discs.

He wanted to prove the story was a fuss about nothing.

But Clarkson admitted he was "wrong" after he discovered a reader had used the details to create a £500 direct debit to the charity Diabetes UK.'

Guy:Incognito

ch750536 wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7174760.stm

'The Top Gear host revealed his account numbers after rubbishing the furore over the loss of 25 million people's personal details on two computer discs.

He wanted to prove the story was a fuss about nothing.

But Clarkson admitted he was "wrong" after he discovered a reader had used the details to create a £500 direct debit to the charity Diabetes UK.'

did you read the thread at all?:rolleyes:

sendit

Kalimah wrote: »

You have to be part of the direct debit scheme to set up direct debits from people's accounts. There are God knows how many checks and balances in the process. The originator-Action Aid in this case have to have an originator number. The direct debits are run electronically in their thousands for a charity that size. The money goes directly into Action Aid's main bank account-not some random collector at the door. I know in the charity I work for,that confirmation is sent out to the donor BEFORE the first DD is taken from the account.

Someone else made a good point re cheques and the fact that they have account number bank branch AND signature on them. No one seems to have a problem issuing cheques. I worked in the financial sector too and the only fraud I ever saw was a customer's grand daughter stealing the woman's cheque book and wrinting cheques to herself. Fairly stupid as it was no time til she was caught. Another case was someone writing down a pin and someone in their workplace stole a good bit of money from them. And yet another was the old "your PC has a virus" phone call where the person gave thir credit card details over the phone to someone who phoned them out of the blue.

Id a feeling alright that there was more to opening a DD then just going into a bank and opening one. Iv sometimes wondered where this idea of giving someone your bank deatails means they can take money out of your account, i mean it makes no since when you actually think about it. That is a good point about the cheques

Guy:Incognito

Just on the subject of of people being paid to collect for charities. It's just a fact of life . If there were enough people willing to volunteer their time then the charities wouldnt need to employ people to do it. It's all well and good occupying the moral high ground but the reality of life superceeds that. The salaries of the peopel high up in the charities would be a much better target for anger if we're discussing money beign spent.

sendit

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Just on the subject of of people being paid to collect for charities. It's just a fact of life . If there were enough people willing to volunteer their time then the charities wouldnt need to employ people to do it. It's all well and good occupying the moral high ground but the reality of life superceeds that. The salaries of the peopel high up in the charities would be a much better target for anger if we're discussing money beign spent.

Thats a good point if people have a problom with people being paid to collect for charities then maybe they should go volunteer to do it. Most of them only get paid commision so only get paid for the work they do unlike the high up poeple who no dout get hugh salaries and are all for the charity but i wonder what would happen if they were told to take a pay cut? Im sure we'd see there true colours

ladder

parsi wrote: »

It's hardly verification if you have to ring a number that _they_ provide ?

true, but the majority of them are to low call numbers rather than local numbers, that are registered to the charity.

goz83

LyndaMcL wrote: »

Well, the action aid girl was right. They can't personally do anything with your account number and sort code. How else are they supposed to get sign ups if you won't give details? Honestly it doesn't sound as though she really did anything wrong. And why do you use the word "dishonesty" in your title? There was NO dishonesty in what you posted.

Charity fundraisers that are pushy P me off as much as the next person, but it doesn't sound as though she did anything wrong. Also, canvassing in groups of 2 is common enough, my boyfriend used to do it when he worked in Concern before.

+1. Very common practice and it's more about keeping high spirits than good cop, bad cop. Imagine you have to see 100+ people per day and 95% are going to fob you off with a petty, predictable excuse. It can be tough, so doing it in two's keeps spirits high and actually boosts new sign ups, because the representatives are in a better mood and it is easier to listen to a happy person, than some miserable beggar.

Most established charities use professional sales people at one time or another to boost their sponsorship level (predictable donations). A good sales team can do in one month, what the charity would normally take a year to do. Unfortunately, there are always going to be sales people that knowingly, or unknowingly misrepresent the product. Feeling uncomfortable about what seemed to be standard practice and reporting this could cost a decent person their job. Even if you disagree with charity cold calling, it's no reason to get some poor girl fired for knocking on your door. A little sign on your letter box to say "No Cold Calling" will help if you don't want people calling in.

goz83

David Matthew wrote: »

I'm sorry, but you are completely wrong here. Have you ever signed up somebody for a direct debit on behalf of a company? Name, address, account number and sort code - done.

Jeremy Clarkson was asking for it. It is possible to set up a dd with someones account, but it would also be idiotic for a scammer to set up a dd to go into their own account, as they would be caught. It is generally safe to give bank details out to a person you know is working for a particular company/organisation, but posting your details in a public forum is just asking for trouble.

goz83

foggy_lad wrote: »

Stick your €50 in an envelope and pop it into the box at the back of most churches marked SVdeP or find out where your local SVdeP/home care team/lions club etc holds meetings and send them a cheque! every cent goes to people who need it as all the organisors etc are volunteers and only local people in need benefit from your donation.

Although SVP is a good charity, it doesn't mean the money goes to people who need it the most. Over the years, I know of and have heard of many people taking advantage of SVP. Give a sob story to the volunteers and with no proof needed and just a couple of bills shown, the charity will pay out Dunnes Stores vouchers, will pay bills and an even get a full tank of oil paid for in the process. It's disgusting!

Regarding commissions, middle men and cuts.....the charity has an advertising budget. This can be spent on sales people, or on media appeals/awareness. With media, there is no guarantee for returns on spent funds. With sales people on commission, the charity only pays for quality sales. The customer must stay for at least 3-6 months in most cases for a sale to be considered safe. A percentage of commission is usually held in a bond, to offset sales that don't reach that standard. So, the charity may get a couple of months of donations from thousands of people per year and not have to pay a cent for those donations.

goz83

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

There we are. The only thing that was in doubt (whether a dd could be set up between two private accounts ) is cleared up.

So if anyone would like to list the dangers of someone having your account number and sort code, taking in to account the information in the thread, fire away.

There seems to be confusion here with direct debits. Yes, you do have to be part of a registered dd scheme and no, you cannot set up a dd between private accounts. However, you do not need to be part of a scheme to set up a standing order. A business account, or equivalent will suffice. A dd means a variable amount can be taken from the customer when requested by the receiver. This is necessary when bills are different each month, like when your with Eircom and your bill may vary. A Standing Order is what usually is and what should be set up by a company, or charity, which takes the same amount each month. This requires much less admin, as the sum is taken automatically at a certain day of each month. Direct debits usually require manual input each month, costing more money to process. I actually had an argument about the difference of a standing order and a direct debit (reasons won't be given here) with a junior banking manager. The senior manager overheard the conversation and gave the junior a right tongue whipping, because I was not only correct, but the junior manager was the idiot in charge of direct debits and standing orders at the branch and had given incorrect advice to people (including my dad) for years.

Priori

goz83 wrote: »

Feeling uncomfortable about what seemed to be standard practice and reporting this could cost a decent person their job. Even if you disagree with charity cold calling, it's no reason to get some poor girl fired for knocking on your door.

I think the point was that they weren't so 'decent' at all.

David Matthew wrote:

What annoyed me was how pushy, underhand and downright deceptive one of the girls was who insisted I fill out the form she handed me. When I looked down through it, I saw that my bank details were required; account number and sort code. When I nicely explained (and I was meek/apologetic in my tone, to a fault) that I don't give out bank details at my doorstep, as it makes me uncomfortable, the pushy girl (they seemed to have perfected the good cop/bad cop dynamic) actually said this:

'No no, you wouldn't be giving us your bank details...! That would be only if you gave us that long number across your laser card...!'

When I insisted that, no, I wasn't going to give her my bank details, she audibly sighed (!!!), and reluctantly took the form back from me. At this, they both left, doing their best to look as dejected and hard done by as possible.

That sort of carry on calls for a firing IMHO! In any case, an anonymous posting on boards is hardly going to lead to that.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

I completely disagree with you. What is to stop them walking into a bank and withdrawing funds? They don't need to set up any DD.

goz83 wrote: »

...It is generally safe to give bank details out to a person you know is working for a particular company/organisation...

dudara

I think this thread ran it's course - closed

dudara