Is the 2011 world cup squad our best yet?

endabob1

Whatever about the squad, for the first time in a long, long time we've had a decent rub of the green with the draw.

Quint2010

Oh yeah-oops have a short memory...maybe its the 6N I am getting mixed up with. 'Bout time they awarded them there too..

Quint2010

endabob1 wrote: »

Whatever about the squad, for the first time in a long, long time we've had a decent rub of the green with the draw.

You reckon? Australia and Italy? I think the Italians will run us very close.

Podge_irl

Whether or not the squad is inherently "better" is somewhat immaterial. The 2007 squad was excellent on paper and had come off a stellar 6N but played like completely drainpipes for the entire tournament. Marginally better then Georgia is about where they belonged.

The '11 squad is coming off a much worse 6N but it all depends on how they play at the RWC (I don't have high hopes).

JRant

Does it really matter who is picked in this squad to fly over to New Zealand. We all know that DC is just as conservative as EOS was and this will cost us big time over there. The first 15 will be shattered by the end of the group stages and we'll be on the plane home unless he changes his mentality completely over the next couple of months.

GerM

JRant wrote: »

Does it really matter who is picked in this squad to fly over to New Zealand. We all know that DC is just as conservative as EOS was and this will cost us big time over there. The first 15 will be shattered by the end of the group stages and we'll be on the plane home unless he changes his mentality completely over the next couple of months.

I don't think so. I think we've more strength past the first choice 22 and we'll see some of those guys getting a run against Russia and the USA. He might have stumbled upon them by accident via injuries but DK has a group of players that he can call upon who have started for him in the 6N. EOS didn't really have that. The likes of Duffy, Quinlan, Ferris, Carney, Young, Carney and Wallace had never really started a 6N game under EOS (Quinlan had started one several years previous) and were always passengers on that trip. Barring injury, they weren't going to see any game time. The only players in that boat that may travel this time are Donncha Ryan, Felix Jones and Conor Murray to my knowledge and I wouldn't be shocked to see them get a run if they travelled. Cronin hasn't started a 6N game but has experience against the 3N sides and subbed in several 6N matches.

JRant

GerM wrote: »

I don't think so. I think we've more strength past the first choice 22 and we'll see some of those guys getting a run against Russia and the USA. He might have stumbled upon them by accident via injuries but DK has a group of players that he can call upon who have started for him in the 6N. EOS didn't really have that. The likes of Duffy, Quinlan, Ferris, Carney, Young, Carney and Wallace had never really started a 6N game under EOS (Quinlan had started one several years previous) and were always passengers on that trip. Barring injury, they weren't going to see any game time. The only players in that boat that may travel this time are Donncha Ryan, Felix Jones and Conor Murray to my knowledge and I wouldn't be shocked to see them get a run if they travelled. Cronin hasn't started a 6N game but has experience against the 3N sides and subbed in several 6N matches.

I completely agree wrt the depth of the squad at his disposal, however we have to judge DK on his reign as Irish manager and that is where i'm coming from. We may see a few of the fringe players getting a run against Russia or the USA but it will be largely made up of the old reliables. The only place he ever makes changes are the half backs or the back line and my fear is that the !1st choice pack will be out on there feet by the end of the group.

monkeybutter

Dr.Evil wrote: »

Obviously the 2011 squad isn't announced, I'm going on mostly the probables. And I've just put in the number for each position as there was in 2007, i.e. there were three second rows and six back rows brought in 07, so I'll list three second rows and six back rows for the 11 squad. Gives an idea of what you're comparing.

2007 props: Simon Best, John Hayes, Marcus Horan, Bryan Young.
2011 props: Cian Healy, Mike Ross, Tom Court, Tony Buckley/John Hayes.

2007 hookers: Rory Best, Jerry Flannery, Frankie Sheahan
2011 hookers: Rory Best, Jerry Flannery, Sean Cronin.

2007 second rows: Donnacha O'Callaghan, Paul O'Connell, Malcolm O'Kelly
2011 second rows: Donnacha O'Callaghan, Paul O'Connell, Leo Cullen.

2007 back rows: Stephen Ferris, David Wallace, Denis Leamy, Alan Quinlan, Neil Best, Simon Easterby.
2011 back rows: Sean O'Brien, Stephen Ferris, David Wallace, Shane Jennings, Jamie Heaslip, Kevin McLoughlin.

2007 scrum halves: Peter Stringer, Isaac Boss, Eoin Reddan.
2011 scrum halves: Tomas O'Leary, Isaac Boss, Eoin Reddan.

2007 fly halves: Ronan O'Gara, Paddy Wallace.
2011 fly halves: Ronan O'Gara, Johnny Sexton.

2007 centres: Brian O'Driscoll, Gordon D'Arcy, Gavin Duffy.
2011 centres: Brian O'Driscoll, Gordon D'Arcy, Paddy Wallace.

2007 wings/fullbacks: Brian Carney, Denis Hickie, Shane Horgan, Andrew Trimble, Girvan Dempsey, Geordan Murphy.
2011 wings/fullbacks: Keith Earls, Luke Fitzgerald, Tommy Bowe, Fergus McFadden/Andrew Trimble, Rob Kearney, Geordan Murphy.

I'd rate the 2011 squad as much better looking between the two. Looking at players like Brian Carney, Bryan Young or Gavin Duffy, were they ever going to start/play? I could see nearly anybody out of the 2011 squad play. Much stronger.
Also out of interest, 14/15 return from the 07 squad there.

I agree the 2011 squad are better looking, the inclusion of "Handsome" Rob Kearny alone would sway it for me.

Other than that, the last squad looked pretty good on paper, but as the sum of it's parts, it failed miserably, that Georgia game alone, shudder. It was like playing against 15 sumo wrestler and no one had any game plan.

Only downside I can see is the lack of real pace in the form "Try time".

endabob1

Quint2010 wrote: »

You reckon? Australia and Italy? I think the Italians will run us very close.

Compared to the last 2 when we had
France & Argentina - ranked 3rd & 6th the week before the RWC (we were 5th) so 3 of the top 6 in one group!!!

Australia & Argentina ranked 4th & 7th the week before the RWC (we were 3rd) so 3 of the top 7 in one group.

Italy are ranked 12th in the world and haven't beaten us in over a decade, despite the scare in Rome & the fact that Kaplan is reffing we should have more than enough for them.

JRant

endabob1 wrote: »

Compared to the last 2 when we had
France & Argentina - ranked 3rd & 6th the week before the RWC (we were 5th) so 3 of the top 6 in one group!!!

Australia & Argentina ranked 4th & 7th the week before the RWC (we were 3rd) so 3 of the top 7 in one group.

Italy are ranked 12th in the world and haven't beaten us in over a decade, despite the scare in Rome & the fact that Kaplan is reffing we should have more than enough for them.

Spot on and more importantly we need a decent run in the WC to improve our seeding, which is really hindering us at these World Cups.

SomeFool

ambid wrote: »

Wow! I don't really understand this comment. Could you expand on what you mean? I don't see the comparison at all.

Fair enough I didn't explain my self properly (rare Sunday pints). I was just suggesting that I see both as third in line for their respective positions in the Squad which barring injury won't be enough to get them on the plane.

profitius

This is our best squad by a mile and we'll be even better in 2015.

The Aussies are even starting to get a little worried now. I reckon with the master motivator Declan Kidney at the wheel, this will be our best world cup ever.

Its important that the squad is used this time and players rested occasionally.

sock puppet

profitius wrote: »

I reckon with the master motivator Declan Kidney at the wheel, this will be our best world cup ever.

And Australia are coached by a trained chimp are they?

profitius

sock puppet wrote: »

And Australia are coached by a trained chimp are they?

What did I say about the Australian coach?

sock puppet

profitius wrote: »

What did I say about the Australian coach?

Nothing which was my point.

JustinDee

The thing is, nobody here will ever agree on the squad selection. There'll always be somebody wailing a sook over such-and-such being omitted/included without even knowing reasons.
Therefore the team will be judged on its results.

One game at a time.
Could be worse. Could be in the Welsh group.

hopefullyigita

Coughlan from Muster in squad you think?

profitius

sock puppet wrote: »

Nothing which was my point.

Well then don't jump to wrong conclusions. :rolleyes:

totallegend

hopefullyigita wrote: »

Coughlan from Muster in squad you think?

No. Heaslip and O'Brien are first and second choice #8, Coughlan is a decent player but miles behind those two and there just isn't room for him on the plane.

LuckyGent88

profitius wrote: »

This is our best squad by a mile and we'll be even better in 2015.

The Aussies are even starting to get a little worried now. I reckon with the master motivator Declan Kidney at the wheel, this will be our best world cup ever.

Its important that the squad is used this time and players rested occasionally.

Completely agree with ya. Think we have a quality squad and once DK makes the correct decisions regarding the easier matches v Russia and Spain with regards to the starting 15 and substitions i really fancy our chances of at least a semi-final spot. They better get that far as all my tickets for the matches arrived in the post today

irishbucsfan

I'm not hugely concerned by the coaching staff, bar their odd selections.

I think that Declan Kidney will be in his element in the World Cup setting.
I also think that Greg Feek will have our scrum playing absolutely top class by the time they get down there.
Les Kiss not only has one of the most awesome names on the planet, he's also one of the best defense coaches and deserves huge credit for the manner in which we won the GS in 09.

The two that concern me are Gaffney and the plonker who said Buckley would be one of the best THs in the world... Don't think Smal has really gotten great performances out of the pack yet.

Overall, I would say we are looking better in the coaching department than in 07. And with a better squad on paper, we will hopefully make it out of the group stage this time.

hopefullyigita

What way would you have the back row.. Or even if you have time what would your 1-15 be?

sock puppet

profitius wrote: »

Well then don't jump to wrong conclusions. :rolleyes:

Your post was complete nonsense. You don't stumble into an international coaching job and Kidney is not a miracle worker.

profitius

sock puppet wrote: »

Your post was complete nonsense. You don't stumble into an international coaching job and Kidney is not a miracle worker.

All I did was praise Kidneys record in knockout competitions! lol

bamboozle

hopefullyigita wrote: »

Coughlan from Muster in squad you think?

not a chance, there are plenty of far better no.8's around

Heaslip
SOB
Wilson
Ruddock
Muldoon

bamboozle

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'm not hugely concerned by the coaching staff, bar their odd selections.

I think that Declan Kidney will be in his element in the World Cup setting.
I also think that Greg Feek will have our scrum playing absolutely top class by the time they get down there.
Les Kiss not only has one of the most awesome names on the planet, he's also one of the best defense coaches and deserves huge credit for the manner in which we won the GS in 09.

The two that concern me are Gaffney and the plonker who said Buckley would be one of the best THs in the world... Don't think Smal has really gotten great performances out of the pack yet.

Overall, I would say we are looking better in the coaching department than in 07. And with a better squad on paper, we will hopefully make it out of the group stage this time.

is feek involved with the national team? had read recently that they were in discussions with Os du Randt to become scrum lord for the national team

cython

bamboozle wrote: »

is feek involved with the national team? had read recently that they were in discussions with Os du Randt to become scrum lord for the national team

Yup

CatFromHue

bamboozle wrote: »

not a chance, there are plenty of far better no.8's around

Heaslip
SOB
Wilson
Ruddock
Muldoon

from what ive seen of coughlan id have him above ruddock and from what ive seen of wilson and muldoon ahead of them too.

he is a very hard worker but also links well with other players.

monkeybutter

sock puppet wrote: »

And Australia are coached by a trained chimp are they?

Your post is nonsense

Quint2010

CatFromHue wrote: »

from what ive seen of coughlan id have him above ruddock and from what ive seen of wilson and muldoon ahead of them too.

he is a very hard worker but also links well with other players.

I too think Coughlan could be a bolter for the WC. He played well on sat and is in form. We should be picking players in form.

profitius

Some of the players Ireland now have to choose from. I've probably left out some more and didn't include any U20 players like Luke Marshall, Gilroy, Conroy etc.

15) Jones/Kearney/Duffy/Murphy

14) Bowe/Horgan/D Kearney
13) BOD/Spense/O'Malley/Griffin
12) D'Arcy/McFadden/P Wallace
11) Earls/Fitzgerald/Trimble/Carr

10) Sexton/ROG/iHumph/Keatley/McKinley
9) Murray/Reddan/Boss/Stringer/TOL

8) Heaslip/Leamy/Muldoon/Coughlan
7) Wallace/Jennings/Faloon
6) SOB/Ferris/McLaughlin/McCarthy

5) POC/Cullen/MOD/Toner/
4) DOC/Don Ryan/Touhy

3) Ross/Hayes/Buckley/Hagan
2) Flannery/Best/Cronin/Sherry
1) Healy/Horan/Court/McAllister

curts82

Thinks Stringer will defo go. I dont think Boss is good enough. Cant understand why he starts before reddan in most games. I would like to see Ruddock go just for the experience alone.

totallegend

Quint2010 wrote: »

I too think Coughlan could be a bolter for the WC. He played well on sat and is in form. We should be picking players in form.

Ahead of who?? Can people please keep in mind that every player who goes means another player losing out? Heaslip is 100% nailed down, bringing Coughlan means bringing two dedicated eights when SOB is a far better eight than Coughlan and Wallace can do a job if needed.

James Coughlan is as likely to be in the squad as I am, barring an injury catastrophe.

Podge_irl

curts82 wrote: »

Cant understand why he starts before reddan in most games.

He doesn't.

What he does provide is an excellent option off the bench. He's also as physical as TOL while being a plain better scrum half.

niceoneted

I think we probably have the best squad/panel to pick from in a good while. There is competition there for some spots, esp in the backs and back row. Our weakness is the front 5 imo as far as panel is concerned. Front 3 as far as team is concerned. What I am worried about - while I would rate Kidney to a certain extent - is that he will play a team game. For WC it is all important to play a squad game. Use the best 15 for the team you are playing at each stage - so not necessarily your overall best 15. It's important to rest the top players for these kinda games and also important to not have them playing the full 80 if not necessary. AS another poster mentioned earlier the bench is not supposed to be as a just in case! I understand all the teams will be coming with great intentions to play well and bring there best squads. I believe we have the ability to win the pool and get as far as the semis. That is if everyone plays to the best of their ability in all games and Kidney relys on the squad not the team! Big ask. I think if we get that far momentum will kick in and who knows. I can always dream. I'll only be there til after the semis myself.

d'Oracle

monkeybutter wrote: »

Your post is nonsense

Its strangely miss-placed, I'll give you that.

But I believe that the point is that its a bit silly stating that the aussies being scared and following it up with mention of Declan Kidneys motivational skills, when Aussie are better than us in a lot of positions and Robbie Deans is one of the best man managers in the game.

Or rather if he is saying that, I agree with him.

jacothelad

Richarz wrote: »

I'd argue that Jennings brings out the best in O'Brien and for that reason alone he should get a chance to stake his claim in a backrow alongside O'Brien and Heaslip. O'Brien at his best is quite literally a match winner who can turn teams on their heads.

Also, he was absolutely brilliant on Saturday! I'm suprised no one has said it yet but if that game had been in any other venue Jennings would have gotten man of the match. He really deserved it despite being on the losing team.

I agree about Jennings. I thought he was the motm.

bamboozle wrote: »

is feek involved with the national team? had read recently that they were in discussions with Os du Randt to become scrum lord for the national team

IRFU released a statement tio the effect that they had never had any discussions with du Randt.