Typical renting costs - service charges for tenant?

n900guy

Hi,

I am in Holland at the moment. pretty much every apartment that I have viewed that has a maintenance/service charge (can be anything from 50-250+ per month), this charge is payable by the tenant.

Maybe I'm being naiive by paying this myself on my flat in Dublin which I have rented out, but I also note that in the UK, the council taxes (water, local service costs for garbage collection, etc., ) are also payable by the tenant.

So, what is the future to be? I am thinking I should write this into the next tenancy agreement. It's normal in UK and Netherlands - so why not here?

Also, it seems typical that there can be income requirements set by a landlord. He can demand that a tenant have e.g., at least 4x the monthly rent gross in income per month. This seems to be the norm. Along with 2 months rent as deposit if it's furnished (although I regularly see 3 months deposit quoted), 1 month if it's not furnished.

So, what do people think? I expect crticism, but TBF, there are huge proplems in ireland from my recollection with poor quality maintainence due to lack of fees being paid, damage to property and furnishing not covered by the deposit and so on.

Is it time to professionalise up the rental market and have tenants pay up front the value of the furniture in the apartment as a deposit? And management service fees? And income requirements (copy of job contract is required here), etc.,.

So, to rent a flat which is €1000/month:
+ €120/month service costs
+ €3000 deposit if fully furnished
+ gross income requirement of €4000/month by copy of contract

Perhaps with a little more committment from the outset, tenants might take care of properties better. I have never had a problem but that can always change - I am looking at what is done here (NL) to protect the landlord.

For example: http://www.funda.nl/huur/amsterdam/appartement-47061073-jan-van-zutphenstraat-433/omschrijving/

"De huurprijs bedraagt € 1220,00 per maand, de servicekosten bedragen € 75,00 per maand. De kosten voor de beveiligde onderliggende parkeerplaat zijn € 52,00 per maand."

- they just quote it upfront. 1220/month rent, 75/month service costs, etc., . They will also typically quote a "hot" or "cold" rent price including or excluding electricity or other services. This is also typicla in Germany. It might help with people not wanting to pay electricity bills - it gets totted up at the end of the tenancy and you are liable or due a refund.

Looks like tenancy contracts have to move forward IMO.

Yawns

As I said on the other thread, no point comparing how other countries use different setups. We could be here all day comparing how the other countries are run as a whole, from renting apartments to how their justice system is ran.

Irish people will not be happy to tell a prospective LL how much they earn or show them bank details. If I was asked I'd tell them where they could go. 3k deposit? That's 6 months rent for me atm.

€120 service costs? For what to pay for your insurance? Will contents be insured or will I still have to take out my own contents insurance policy. LL's insurance will only cover structural damage in rented accommodation. What happens when a previous tenant makes a claim? In case you don't know but when a claim is made on a house then that house gets "loaded" with a higher premium for about 4 years. Even if the people move, the house premium stays higher. So in an apartment if 1/3 of old tenants made an insurance claim (lets face it people are scummy and will do anything for money too, look at how some people trash places ), if they made a claim should future tenants have to pay even more "management fees"? At what point does it stop?

Also afaik tho if water charges are being brought out here, it will be the tenant that has to pay them as it's based on usage like gas, electricity and so forth. The reason tenants don't pay for rubbish disposal is because they don't exactly have a choice in who they hire for taking away waste.

Also if most LL's did proper vetting or made damn sure their estate agent did then a lot of property would not get trashed. Some scum are allowed into houses and apartments because the ll or agent doesn't care, once they get paid. They shouldn't be afraid to say no. When the person comes to take a look, just let them know there's someone else coming to view as well etc and you promised them you would show it as they did make an appointment first etc.

not even wrong

Maintenance fees are already factored into Irish rent levels. If the Dutch suddenly made it illegal for tenants to pay maintenance fees, then rents would simply increase by an equivalent amount. If the Irish made it mandatory for tenants to pay maintenance fees, then our rents would drop.

Landlords are supposed to do their sums before they make an investment and decide whether it makes financial sense given the maintenance and other costs and the rent it will earn. Sounds to me like you failed to take maintenance costs into account and you are now expecting your tenant to pay for your mistake.

Is it time to professionalise up the rental market and have tenants pay up front the value of the furniture in the apartment as a deposit?

Throw in a proper deposit retention scheme run by the PRTB and you've got a deal.

Yawns

As above if the LL who owns my apartment is only renting to me at the price of let's say his mortgage and didn't factor in the fact he has to pay management fees then that's his fault for being silly. He should have factored it all in at the beginning.

Next you'll be waiting rents paid at a variable rate so when LL's mortgage goes up 1% so does the rent the tenant has to pay.

n900guy

not even wrong wrote: »

Maintenance fees are already factored into Irish rent levels. If the Dutch suddenly made it illegal for tenants to pay maintenance fees, then rents would simply increase by an equivalent amount. If the Irish made it mandatory for tenants to pay maintenance fees, then our rents would drop.

Landlords are supposed to do their sums before they make an investment and decide whether it makes financial sense given the maintenance and other costs and the rent it will earn. Sounds to me like you failed to take maintenance costs into account and you are now expecting your tenant to pay for your mistake.Throw in a proper deposit retention scheme run by the PRTB and you've got a deal.

Not at all. I've been paying the charges for years for my tenants. However, I have arrived to the UK and NL and find that actually these apartment block service charges are paid by the tenant.

Who says they are "factored in" therefore?? The rent is the rent. If you are obliged to pay electricity and keep heating at a minimum level then surely also garbage collection and service/upkeep charges as well (as is in other countries - seeing as everything from public sector salaries to politicians sexual preferences gets compared to other EU countries why not this cost of living as well??)

It;s not that the Dutch government mandated that serice costs are payable by tenants. That is simply the accepted norm just like electricity, gas, internet, water, general maintenance. So how come it is the norm in Ireland to not pay? And, has this culture of not paying your way something more Irish than not? It's telling that you phrased it as "make it illegal" as if there is a gun at somebody's head to pay the service costs here. There aren't. Every landlord makes there own deal - e.g., 1100 for rent + 90/month service costs + 150/month parking, as a complete package, take it or leave it. Another apartment may have no service charges, or pay have a car park charge separately as an option not as a mandatory condition of tenancy.

I'm just saying, my experience has been the "status quo" as you said, but it's definitely not the status quo in our more developed neighbours. Does our system as it stands maintain low standards of landlord and tenant? Bigger deposits and service costs would see e.g.., rowdy students lose a lot of cash of their parents quickly along with financial liability for leaving cans of beer, etc., around as is common in centre city blocks.

not even wrong

n900guy wrote: »

Not at all. I've been paying the charges for years for my tenants.

No you haven't, you've been paying them for yourself. Read your property deed and you will see that it is you, the owner, who is liable for these charges, not the resident.

Who says they are "factored in" therefore??

Basic economics, that's what says they are factored in.

The rent is the rent. If you are obliged to pay electricity and keep heating at a minimum level then surely also garbage collection and service/upkeep charges as well (as is in other countries - seeing as everything from public sector salaries to politicians sexual preferences gets compared to other EU countries why not this cost of living as well??)

Landlords (especially in the current economy) are price takers not price makers. If the going market rate for your property is €900 and you try to make the tenant pay an extra €100 on top of this you will find very few tenants interested. (From a prospective tenant's point of view, there is no difference whatsoever between you charging a rent of €1000 or a rent of €900 + €100 "service charge" to be paid to a management co. Either way they're paying €1k a month on housing so it's all the same to them.)

There are places on daft which advertise "all utilities included in rent" -- by your logic this is the greatest deal ever for the tenant and these landlords must be idiots who are giving away free electricity for nothing. In fact, you'll find the rent for these places is higher than it would be without the free utilities. The same goes for service charges.

n900guy

not even wrong wrote: »

No you haven't, you've been paying them for yourself. Read your property deed and you will see that it is you, the owner, who is liable for these charges, not the resident.

There's a real perspective issue here. For example, people outside of Dublin were paying garbage collection for years. There was uproar in Dublin when the charges were introduced as they had been getting a free ride for decades, "expected" the garbage to be collected for free and didn't see why it had to be paid for.

Now, all I am saying is, likewise, I am paying costs which include maintenance, a janitorial service on call, garbage collection. All of these cost money - the service charges.

So, what is it that makes Irish tenants so special to not pay what is standard practice (you pay for what you use) in other countries? We compare public sector salaries, we compare politicians salaries, we compare everything. Now, how about parity with tenancy which would likely improve the lot for tenants *and* landlords.

It's not a problem for me, but it has opened my eyes with how much stuff is taken for granted by a tenant in Ireland - compared to Dutch and British renters. That's pretty irrefutable. The market is one thing but of course, high quality apartments with e.g., 24hr porterage incur service costs. A two bed shoebox 15 miles outside the M50 is not really a place warranting much if anything. There seems to be a value/pay for service gap in Ireland IMO.

I wonder what happens when you rent in Ireland - not paying any service charges. And then you move to the UK or Holland and you do? Surely it's a little odd for any reasonable person to not see this problem?

The actual rents would be less. It would put much more focus on what is the value of any particular management.service company, etc., . Maybe people aren't interested in paying for their services in Ireland?!?

(EDIT: well actually seeing as how little tax most people were payign, that is probably true. People want stuff for nothing - schools, hospitals - and soon: water, garbage collection).

There is also complaining about lack of tenancy security in Ireland compared to the continent. But, as I can see: the tenant on the continent coughs up several months deposit, guarantees they can afford it for a year, pays the service costs, etc., .So the door swings both ways it seems.

Kimia

I cannot believe you think 3 x rent for a deposit is reasonable. Do you realise how many tenants never get their deposits back from landlords, and you want to make 3 x monthly rent standard? Not a chance.

Tenants want to pay for a service, which means somewhere to live at relatively no risk, without having to worry about service fees, insurance, maintenance and all that hassle. If they wanted that they would have bought a house.

n900guy

Kimia wrote: »

I cannot believe you think 3 x rent for a deposit is reasonable. Do you realise how many tenants never get their deposits back from landlords, and you want to make 3 x monthly rent standard? Not a chance.

Tenants want to pay for a service, which means somewhere to live at relatively no risk, without having to worry about service fees, insurance, maintenance and all that hassle. If they wanted that they would have bought a house.

Hey I am just comparing! 2 months minimum is standard here for a furnished apartment, plus 1 month up front plus another 1 month fee for the estate agent. The one month rent one month deposit in ireland is a steal. But, why are depsoits not returned? No intermediary body. There are certainly plenty of trashed ex-rental flats. There are also landlords that try and basically steal the money and not give it back.

A lot of the apartments with higher quality furnishings (i.e., not Ikea) are 3 months deposit. But, I think deposits are regulated here as thye are in the UK.

Kimia

n900guy wrote: »

Hey I am just comparing! 2 months minimum is standard here for a furnished apartment, plus 1 month up front plus another 1 month fee for the estate agent. The one month rent one month deposit in ireland is a steal. But, why are depsoits not returned? No intermediary body. There are certainly plenty of trashed ex-rental flats. There are also landlords that try and basically steal the money and not give it back.

A lot of the apartments with higher quality furnishings (i.e., not Ikea) are 3 months deposit. But, I think deposits are regulated here as thye are in the UK.

Where are you?

So you're saying, in the country that you are in, the tenant pays 2 months min deposit, plus another month (presumably for rent) and then 1 month 'fee' to an estate agent. Why would the tenant pay the estate agent?

n900guy

Kimia wrote: »

Where are you?

So you're saying, in the country that you are in, the tenant pays 2 months min deposit, plus another month (presumably for rent) and then 1 month 'fee' to an estate agent. Why would the tenant pay the estate agent?

Again, it's just comparing! And not for all tenancies. It depends on how the landlord wanted it let.

Seeing how thigns are done elsewhere might lead to improvements in the domestic market. I don't look for any of this stuff and never had to, but, it is eye opening the security tenants need to *give* to the landlord up front, in order to *get* more security as a tenant.

Kimia

n900guy wrote: »

Again, it's just comparing! And not for all tenancies. It depends on how the landlord wanted it let.

Seeing how thigns are done elsewhere might lead to improvements in the domestic market. I don't look for any of this stuff and never had to, but, it is eye opening the security tenants need to *give* to the landlord up front, in order to *get* more security as a tenant.

Again, what does the tenant *get* in return?

CiaranC

n900guy wrote: »

Seeing how thigns are done elsewhere might lead to improvements in the domestic market.

Improvements for who exactly?

n900guy

Kimia wrote: »

Where are you?

So you're saying, in the country that you are in, the tenant pays 2 months min deposit, plus another month (presumably for rent) and then 1 month 'fee' to an estate agent. Why would the tenant pay the estate agent?

Cork is not another country .... yet.

As you walk around cities you never get curious as to what is the norm? Yup, that is the norm in Holland it seems - you cough up the equivalent of 4 months rent up front.