to lower or not to lower...

antiskeptic

unclebill98 wrote: »

I'm a small in height myself. After getting lessons I feel far better with a lower bike and left foot down only. Right foot on the break gives menfar more control over the bike. It makes it solid. You are limiting yourself to one break doing both feet down if you come across the need to break faster.

The idea would be that you'd be at a virtual stop before putting any feet down. Maximising your braking isn't the issue.

It's inevitable that you'll be using the front brake at the point of stopping (even if you're also using the rear) as it gives you the option of putting either foot down as circumstances demand. Coming to a halt on the rear brake only dictates you must put your left foot down - which isn't much use if the bike want's to tilt to the right.

LookBehindYou

antiskeptic wrote: »

Sitting on the clutch with the bike in gear? As a habitual thing? Is there anyone "official" recommending this? What about relaxing during a long traffic light sequence?

If someone gives you a nudge from behind and you loose the clutch (in addition to inevitably losing the rear brake), you're now mounted on a geared up bike in addition to an unbraked one. That doesn't strike me as ideal.

It is the way that all good riding instructors teach.
Benefits of holding the clutch in while stopped in 1st gear is that you can get out of the way quickly if someone is going to nudge you from behind.You are taught to always use your mirrors to know what is around you.
Holding the back brake is adding stability when stopped.

alanmc

LookBehindYou wrote: »

It is the way that all good riding instructors teach.
Benefits of holding the clutch in while stopped in 1st gear is that you can get out of the way quickly if someone is going to nudge you from behind.You are taught to always use your mirrors to know what is around you.
Holding the back brake is adding stability when stopped.

I was taught to stop the bike and click into neutral. Then just before moving off, perform what my instructor called "the garda shuffle". Swap to the front brake. Swap your ground foot allowing you to select 1st, and then shuffle back. I was told that during the operation, the brake light shouldn't flicker ... and the tester will be looking out for this. This was back in 2003. Instruction has probably changed.

But I still use this technique anytime I have to stop for more than a few seconds. If it's good enough for the gardaí, it's good enough for me.

Difficult to perform, I admit, for those on their tippy toes.

alanmc

antiskeptic wrote: »

The idea would be that you'd be at a virtual stop before putting any feet down. Maximising your braking isn't the issue.

It's inevitable that you'll be using the front brake at the point of stopping (even if you're also using the rear) as it gives you the option of putting either foot down as circumstances demand. Coming to a halt on the rear brake only dictates you must put your left foot down - which isn't much use if the bike want's to tilt to the right.

1. This just isn't true. I'm pretty much always off the front brake when I come to a stop. Unless it's an emergency stop.

2. I tell the bike which way to tilt. If the bike starts telling me which way it wants to tilt, it's time for some more counter steering practice.

Paparazzo

LookBehindYou wrote: »

Do you know that you have less control over your bike doing it that way.
use the LEFT FOOT only to hold the bike, and use the Right foot to hold the back brake.

I'm with antiskeptic on this one. I know they teach you the back brake keep it in gear thing. But drive around town, stopping and starting in traffic, your hand will be in bits holding in the clutch. I put it in neutral. Even if it's in gear, i use the front brake. If you're on a slight hill and have a foot on the brake, better hope a gust of wind doesn't catch you!
Do whatever you think is best, i definitely prefer using the front brake, weather i'm in gear or neutral when stopped. I don't buy that rear ended thing.

cantdecide

As a general point with regard to training; there is an arguement for and against a lot of riding practices. Smarter people than most of us have worked out the lesser of two evils in these cases. I'm happy to submit to the greater knowledge.

alanmc wrote: »

...If it's good enough for the gardaí, it's good enough for me...

Gardai don't do the shuffle any more, AFAIK. They all practise the left foot down. Thinking on certain points does change from time to time. I'm always asking noobs what they're being taught nowadays that's different from my training in 2008.

alanmc

cantdecide wrote: »

Gardai don't do the shuffle any more, AFAIK. They all practise the left foot down.

So they stop in first gear then? They must do ... because they'd have to do some sort of menoeuvre to engage first gear.

Things change. The moral of the story is: Do what suits you (and your bike) as long as it's safe.

antiskeptic

LookBehindYou wrote: »

Benefits of holding the clutch in while stopped in 1st gear is that you can get out of the way quickly if someone is going to nudge you from behind.You are taught to always use your mirrors to know what is around you.

Sounds like something someone dreamt up in theory class tbh.

Holding the back brake is adding stability when stopped.

As is holding the front.

antiskeptic

alanmc wrote: »

I was taught to stop the bike and click into neutral. Then just before moving off, perform what my instructor called "the garda shuffle". Swap to the front brake. Swap your ground foot allowing you to select 1st, and then shuffle back. I was told that during the operation, the brake light shouldn't flicker ... and the tester will be looking out for this. This was back in 2003. Instruction has probably changed.

#

In 1994 I was told that you had to indicate left by holding your left arm sidewards out when turning or pulling into the left. And that you had to signal if slowing down (even coming up to a red traffic light) by extending your right arm out then waving it slowly up and down.

Later on he told me to pull into the side of the street in controlled fashion, using the appropriate signalling. "Okay" I thought to meself. "Pulling into the left means left arm out. And slowing down means right arm out and waving". So, for the fun, I did both at the same time, pulling up using the back brake.

His face

alanmc

antiskeptic wrote: »

#

In 1994 I was told that you had to indicate left by holding your left arm sidewards out when turning or pulling into the left. And that you had to signal if slowing down (even coming up to a red traffic light) by extending your right arm out then waving it slowly up and down.

Later on he told me to pull into the side of the street in controlled fashion, using the appropriate signalling. "Okay" I thought to meself. "Pulling into the left means left arm out. And slowing down means right arm out and waving". So, for the fun, I did both at the same time, pulling up using the back brake.

His face

Hehehehehe. I have a vision of a panel of judges offering scores on cards after that manoeuvre was completed.

LookBehindYou

Practice the way i suggested, and you will find it easier to control the bike.
Those are the ways you would be currently taught.

Doing slow stuff, use the rear brake only, its plenty to stop the bike, and will help with stability.

On the holding in the clutch part, if you are going to be stopped for a while, kick it in to neutral.

rock22

I have to admit, in over 35 yrs riding, that I have never heard of keeping bike in gear and holding clutch whilst stopped. I can only assume that whoever came up with that idea had zero mechanical sympathy!

Doing this will overheat your clutch release mechanism. Unless you are riding an old Indian or something similar, you should made clutch action as short as possible.

The advanced motorcyclist handbook(IAM) states "common faults which quickly ruin a clutch are ...disengaging it for long periods instead of selecting neutral when stopped"

As to braking as foot down, you should be stopped before putting either foot down so it will not restrict use of the rear brake.

For what it is worth, I did the bike-safe program with the Gardai, using right foot down all the time. As I explained in a previous post this gave me better support on cambered roads than left foot down. Other than mentioning that they did the opposite, left foot down and held the bike on the rear brake, but had no criticism of my use of the right foot.

Whatever you do, regarding technique and altering bike, aim to give yourself the most confident feel on the bike. But also consider, long term, that some bikes may not be for you ( or me) and select from those that fit better.
Safe riding.

cantdecide

rock22 wrote: »

I can only assume that whoever came up with that idea had zero mechanical sympathy...

I think that you're being a little alarmist here. A worn clutch is no more a 'fault' than a worn tyre and a clutch change is usually no big deal in most bikes.

Re. Bikesafe: I had a conversation with a Garda, who was middle aged, about this and he specifically mentioned long term bikers and it being pointless trying to get them to change their ingrained habits.

The fact is, the thinking associated with these techniques has evolved. The boffins have decided the lesser of all evils is left foot down. As someone that practises it, i can assure you, its never left me down. You will no longer pass a test with anything other than left foot down. With respect, I don't see much argument for anything else.

antiskeptic

cantdecide wrote: »

Re. Bikesafe: I had a conversation with a Garda, who was middle aged, about this and he specifically mentioned long term bikers and it being pointless trying to get them to change their ingrained habits.

If he utilised some logic then I'd be all ears. I'd a bike guard pull me and warn me against filtering in moving traffic. Not dangerous filtering but filtering outright. I mean, a raison d'etre for commuting on a motorcycle is filtering through moving traffic.

I've not seen the logic of foot on rear brake. Nor the logic of hand on clutch/bike in gear. Truly - I'm sitting at the junction of N11 and Leopardstown Rd at the head of morning traffic waiting for perhaps 2 minutes til the lights change and I'm supposed to do that with hand on clutch in case something comes up through the 500 metres of tailback behind me and rear ends me?

It strikes me that in the list of potential hazards out there, prevention of an accident by virtue of holding the bike in gear at lights will fall off the bottom of the chart. It's preventing a theoretical accident, this idea, not a practical one.

The fact is, the thinking associated with these techniques has evolved. The boffins have decided the lesser of all evils is left foot down. As someone that practises it, i can assure you, its never left me down. You will no longer pass a test with anything other than left foot down. With respect, I don't see much argument for anything else.

Do it to pass the test by all means. Passing tests is good.

After that, be pragmatic. I'm not sure who the boffins are but in order to have something useful to say they'd want to be engaged in the same kind of motorcycling that you yourself are, otherwise their conclusions might not be all that applicable.

As one short of leg and not inclined to sit in gear at every light I come to I see no option than right foot down

cantdecide

Ah now.

Stopped for two minutes is effectively parked. You know that that's different. You know that it's not the point that's being made here. If you are at the head of a queue and you have no prompt that the light is likely to turn green at any second, are you telling me you're still better off in neutral?

Try doing a slow figure 8 with no brakes. Then try it using the back brakes. If you can't glean extra control by using the back brake, you're a better rider than these guys http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Cms0bkNj7A&feature=youtube_gdata_player

antiskeptic

cantdecide wrote: »

Ah now.Stopped for two minutes is effectively parked. You know that that's different. You know that it's not the point that's being made here. If you are at the head of a queue and you have no prompt that the light is likely to turn green at any second, are you telling me you're still better off in neutral?

There are any number of situations ranging from filtering to the top just as the lights change to long delays waiting for a sequence to elapse. My tendency would be to engage neutral as soon as I've ascertained a green light other than imminent. It's relaxing that way on man and machine.

Try doing a slow figure 8 with no brakes. Then try it using the back brakes. If you can't glean extra control by using the back brake, you're a better rider than these guys http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Cms0bkNj7A&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I'm not against the back brake (although generally preferring the more precise control of a finger-operated front brake to help add control in tight situations to a somewhat more clumsy boot-operated back). I'm against a religious observance of right-brake-to-stop/left foot down as if it was the best thing in all circumstances. By all means use it coming to a halt but by the time it's time for any foot down, you've passed the point of needing the rear brake.

P.C.

THIS THREAD HAS GONE WAY OFF TOPIC.

ANY MORE OFF TOPIC POSTS WILL BE DELETED.

THE OP ASKED ADVICE AS TO LOWERING THEIR BIKE, NOT WHICH FOOT TO PUT DOWN WHEN STOPPED, OR WHICH GEAR TO ENGAGE.

rock22

P.C. wrote: »

THIS THREAD HAS GONE WAY OFF TOPIC.

ANY MORE OFF TOPIC POSTS WILL BE DELETED.

THE OP ASKED ADVICE AS TO LOWERING THEIR BIKE, NOT WHICH FOOT TO PUT DOWN WHEN STOPPED, OR WHICH GEAR TO ENGAGE.

the OP posted

maameeo wrote: »

never thought of the test actually. in my lessons on friday he was getting me to use the back break to stop. I'd never used it before and took me ages to get the hang of it. But coming to a stop with right foot on back break and left foot down was really difficult for me, had to try hoosh my body to the left before stopping so i wouldnt topple over to the right when i pushed on the breaks!!

I think the discussion is relevent to the OPs post.

It seems to me, as short motorcyclist myself, that using the right foot down, on cambered roads, will give the OP another 1/2 to one inch. Thats a lot when your short.

BTW, for Cantdecide, the information I was quoting was from the Institute of Advanced Motorist guide book , Advanced Motorcyclist to aid in passing the advanced motorcycle test.

antiskeptic

rock22 wrote: »

the OP posted


I think the discussion is relevent to the OPs post.

It seems to me, as short motorcyclist myself, that using the right foot down, on cambered roads, will give the OP another 1/2 to one inch. Thats a lot when your short.

BTW, for Cantdecide, the information I was quoting was from the Institute of Advanced Motorist guide book , Advanced Motorcyclist to aid in passing the advanced motorcycle test.

I think sight has been lost of the fact that it's a short-legged OP asking the question.

Ever hold the clutch in at lights only to stall when you discover you've forgotten to shift all the way to 1st and are in fact in 3rd or 4th?

Imagine this occurring when sat between line of traffic - which takes off on either side of you whilst you hoosh* yourself from left foot down to right foot down so as to disentangle the 'box.

I think longer legs don't quite realize how committed short-leggers are once they put a foot down.


* Copyright the OP

P.C.

rock22 wrote: »

the OP posted

Originally Posted by maameeo
never thought of the test actually. in my lessons on friday he was getting me to use the back break to stop. I'd never used it before and took me ages to get the hang of it. But coming to a stop with right foot on back break and left foot down was really difficult for me, had to try hoosh my body to the left before stopping so i wouldnt topple over to the right when i pushed on the breaks!!

I think the discussion is relevent to the OPs post.

It seems to me, as short motorcyclist myself, that using the right foot down, on cambered roads, will give the OP another 1/2 to one inch. Thats a lot when your short.

BTW, for Cantdecide, the information I was quoting was from the Institute of Advanced Motorist guide book , Advanced Motorcyclist to aid in passing the advanced motorcycle test.

I refer you to the opening post in this thread:

maameeo wrote: »

im small and on my tippy toes on the fazer. It seems fine to me tho so far (lessons on friends fazer and out on my own for first time yesterday). I've ordered a lowering kit coz I thought id really need it.

So my question is, should i lower it so i can get my two feet on the ground?

or should i leave it if its not bothering me?

I'm sure there are pros and cons for both, one being my bf ordered and paid for the lowering kit and he'll kill me when he reads this! :eek: