rights and wrongs of eating animals

virmilitaris

So my wife was in tears today. I'm living in Korea and our neighbours raised a small pup for the last year and he disappeared last week. We weren't sure what happened until this morning when he was replaced by a new little pup.

Now I'm a very liberal guy. Live and let live. I've eaten dog, live octopus, jellyfish, silkworm larvae etc. I love animals but I also don't see anything wrong with eating them.

What I didn't know about eating dog however until recently was how they are treated. This pup was tied up in a small corner his whole life, only seeing his 'masters' to be fed and watered. This I seen first hand.

What I didn't see first hand is how they kill them. <snip>

Needless to say I won't be eating it again. I can't stand cruelty to any living thing.

But the whole thing got me thinking about other foods I regularly ingest. Beef, pork, shellfish, fish etc. How are these animals treated? Shouldn't I feel the same for a cow as I did for that poor dog?

How do other people here feel?

Cherry Blossom

Hi OP, I would never eat anything unless I was 100% sure of how it was raised, kept and killed. I do not eat any intensively farmed meat, nor do I eat any organic produce originating from animals as the animals are often denied veterinary treatment when needed in the name of being chemical free. I do not, and could not eat anything remotely gamey which is basically just personal choice. We are extremely lucky here given the fact that Ireland has extremely strict regulations on food standards and livestock. I have actually worked in the meat processing industry in the past (albeit in an administrative capacity) and can personally vouch for the standards of practice here. Korea . . . not so much . . .

oppenheimer1

virmilitaris wrote: »

So my wife was in tears today. I'm living in Korea and our neighbours raised a small pup for the last year and he disappeared last week. We weren't sure what happened until this morning when he was replaced by a new little pup.

Now I'm a very liberal guy. Live and let live. I've eaten dog, live octopus, jellyfish, silkworm larvae etc. I love animals but I also don't see anything wrong with eating them.

What I didn't know about eating dog however until recently was how they are treated. This pup was tied up in a small corner his whole life, only seeing his 'masters' to be fed and watered. This I seen first hand.

What I didn't see first hand is how they kill them. <snip>

Needless to say I won't be eating it again. I can't stand cruelty to any living thing.

But the whole thing got me thinking about other foods I regularly ingest. Beef, pork, shellfish, fish etc. How are these animals treated? Shouldn't I feel the same for a cow as I did for that poor dog?

How do other people here feel?

No you shouldn't feel guilty for eating meat. You have to remember that many cows pigs etc wouldn't exist without farming and that conditions in Irish farms for animals are by and large better than the living conditions of many millions of people in the developing world. Irish farming is very humane, so stick to irish meat and you can sleep easy.

Don't deny yourself an important food group, there is nothing wrong eating animals, and they taste sooo good

piperh

I'm a bit of a contradiction here. I don't eat meat and haven't for 29yrs as i stopped after seeing a truck of sheep on the way to slaughter ad felt incredibly guilty, however i buy and cook meat for my family. I feel its a individuals choice and we shouldn't try and influence another person simply because we dislike something. Saying that now i would have to say being vegetarian is more of a habit as i couldn't imagine ever eating meat again.

seamus

Look, it's really up to yourself and whether you're happy with it. However they're brought up or slaughtered, at the end of the day the animals are bred to be eaten and treated like food for their entire lives before being killed, sliced into pieces and sold to you.

It's probably more disturbing for westerners to see a cute ickle puppy being brought up as food, but if you raised cattle as pets and treated them as such, you would likely be equally horrified by beef farming.

From my point of view, while it's preferable to have animals treated humanely while farming, at the end of the day whether you lock them in a cage or let them wander in a field, they're still being treated as food.

I made a decision just over ten years ago, that if I couldn't stand in front of a given animal, kill it, skin it, chop it up and cook it myself, then it would be the height of hypocrisy and weak ethics for me to let someone else do it for me and pretend that it doesn't happen.

But I'm not going to lecture anyone else in that same vain ask them to "examine" their own reasons or tell them that they're wrong. It's a matter for one's personal conscience, and while I do look down on someone who goes out of their way to go, "Mmmm....look at the dead cow" and wave a gammon steak in my face, I don't judge anyone else's personal decisions.

Obviously I would prefer if the whole world stopped - not least because it could solve some major problems - but I'm perfectly aware that I'm contrary to a few thousand years of established customs and traditions. In much the same way that I'd like all religion to go away and never come back, I accept that it's not something to get militant about because that won't change anyone's mind.

Msking

Veggie here too, turned off meat as a kid when I knew where it was coming from. Each to their own but to think of a puppy been killed is awful and I say this because a dog is a companion, man's best friend. They play, lick your face, love to see you coming home -cow's and sheep don't do that. Personally I am against all animal killing but its worse to think its an animal that gives so much love.

Bruthal

seamus wrote: »

It's probably more disturbing for westerners to see a cute ickle puppy being brought up as food, but if you raised cattle as pets and treated them as such, you would likely be equally horrified by beef farming.

I think the OP probably had more of a problem with the dogs treatment, and what they discovered about it in general over there, rather than the eating of dogs.

From my point of view, while it's preferable to have animals treated humanely while farming, at the end of the day whether you lock them in a cage or let them wander in a field, they're still being treated as food.

Well they might be getting raised as food, but you seem to be suggesting that because they are food, abusing and treating them badly is not that bad.

seamus

robbie7730 wrote: »

Well they might be getting raised as food, but you seem to be suggesting that because they are food, abusing and treating them badly is not that bad.

No, my opinion is that it's a minor improvement IMO.
In the same way that it's preferable that children are only beaten by institutions and not raped as well, but ideally neither would occur.

Bruthal

seamus wrote: »

No, my opinion is that it's a minor improvement IMO.
In the same way that it's preferable that children are only beaten by institutions and not raped as well, but ideally neither would occur.

Being in an open field is only a minor improvement over 24 hours a day in a cage?

seamus

robbie7730 wrote: »

Being in an open field is only a minor improvement over 24 hours a day in a cage?

If the end point is meaningless slaughter, then sure. Why bother pretending to give a **** about the animal when you're just going to eat it? It's faux environmentalism designed to make people feel better about themselves, not to make things better for the animals involved.

lesserspottedchloe

It's crazy how badly some Asian countries treat their animals..I'm not saying it's all sunshine and lollipops here but there are laws in place protecting them and they at least have to be killed humanely. Strict vegetarianism is the only way to go in a lot of countries outside E.U. I do think one should feel as bad for usual livestock such as cows and chickens being treated this way aswell. I'd say you'd find the docu 'Earthlings' very interesting and extreamly shocking. There's a lot worse going on out there and it's not even for the animals meat

Bruthal

seamus wrote: »

If the end point is meaningless slaughter, then sure. Why bother pretending to give a **** about the animal when you're just going to eat it? It's faux environmentalism designed to make people feel better about themselves, not to make things better for the animals involved.

You equate cows in field v cage to children getting beaten v beaten and raped. I think myself a cow in a field is contented, but a child getting beaten every day is not.

And the end is meaningless slaughter? We all die, and its not really meaningful is it? So maybe we should all live miserable lives in cages, and maybe some of us feel we more or less are, but in the end, our outcomes are the same as every animal.

Shenshen

robbie7730 wrote: »

And the end is meaningless slaughter? We all die, and its not really meaningful is it? So maybe we should all live miserable lives in cages, and maybe some of us feel we more or less are, but in the end, our outcomes are the same as every animal.

You mean we get killed in our youth for tender meat?

I think one thing that never comes up in discussions like these is that most animals that are being raised for food are killed in what would in human terms would be teenage years.
A chicken can live happily for a good five to ten years, but if raised for food gets killed at between 30 days and 6 months of age.

Yes, the chicken will probably be happy to spend those couple of days outside rather than in a cage, but at the end it still gets killed off way before its time.

Bruthal

Shenshen wrote: »

You mean we get killed in our youth for tender meat?

No, didnt mean that amazingly enough, so here is a reminder of what i said,

but in the end, our outcomes are the same as every animal

And here is a clue in case there is still confusion, our outcome is the same as every animal. Not every animal is killed for tender meat, so there is not much of a connection there for what you suggested i meant:D, but guess what does happen to every animal eventually, and us, unless your going to bring heaven and hell and everlasting life into it.

I think one thing that never comes up in discussions like these is that most animals that are being raised for food are killed in what would in human terms would be teenage years.
A chicken can live happily for a good five to ten years, but if raised for food gets killed at between 30 days and 6 months of age.

Yes, the chicken will probably be happy to spend those couple of days outside rather than in a cage, but at the end it still gets killed off way before its time.

Ok, so because the life maybe short, thats a reason to treating them badly, as they are not going to live long anyway so what does it matter?

Maybe it is, i just dont think it is.

betsie

seamus wrote: »

Obviously I would prefer if the whole world stopped - not least because it could solve some major problems - but I'm perfectly aware that I'm contrary to a few thousand years of established customs and traditions. In much the same way that I'd like all religion to go away and never come back, I accept that it's not something to get militant about because that won't change anyone's mind.

Im not being argumantative asking this now its a genuine curiosity ive always had about the argument for poeople stopping eating meat, what would happen to all the farm animals already in existence like what would we do with them all??

seamus

If we stopped tomorrow? Let them graze the land, look after them, live out their lives. Hell, let them run wild.

betsie

seamus wrote: »

If we stopped tomorrow? Let them graze the land, look after them, live out their lives. Hell, let them run wild.

look after them with what money though if they arent providing income for farmers?

Running wild would mean a lot of starving animals not to mention the spread of disease.

I mean its just not that easy as to just stop.

cjf

I eat meat but have never eaten veal or venison just can't do it! Babies and bambi!! Have family in farming so was just part of life! Female calves kept and raised for milk bullocks raised and used for meat! All lived on open farms in herds and did cow things for couple of years and am ok with that. I would defo not be ok with it if each cow was isolated at birth tied to a fence and just left there for a year. Think we need to respect all animals and if we are going to produce and use them for our own benefit we need to do so in a humane and respectful way. I always buy Irish and if i can get it local even better!

Shenshen

robbie7730 wrote: »

No, didnt mean that amazingly enough, so here is a reminder of what i said,

And here is a clue in case there is still confusion, our outcome is the same as every animal. Not every animal is killed for tender meat, so there is not much of a connection there for what you suggested i meant:D, but guess what does happen to every animal eventually, and us, unless your going to bring heaven and hell and everlasting life into it.



Ok, so because the life maybe short, thats a reason to treating them badly, as they are not going to live long anyway so what does it matter?

Maybe it is, i just dont think it is.

I think you deliberately misunderstand me.

My point is that they shouldn't be bred to be killed in the first place. Improving their conditions for the short time between birth and killing is a small step, but that's all it is, a woefully small step in animal welfare. And to pretend it's such a massive thing, and we can now all go back to happily eating all we want without having to have a band conscience now and then is just lying to yourself, nothing more.

Bruthal

Shenshen wrote: »

I think you deliberately misunderstand me.

My point is that they should be bred to be killed in the first place. Improving their conditions for the short time between birth and killing is a small step, but that's all it is, a woefully small step in animal welfare. And to pretend it's such a massive thing, and we can now all go back to happily eating all we want without having to have a band conscience now and then is just lying to yourself, nothing more.

I assume you meant shouldn`t at the start there.

But anyway, where did i pretend anything was a massive step?
I simply said animals should be treated well during their life, thats all. I said nothing about treating them better as being a massive achievement or step forward.

virmilitaris

Shenshen wrote: »

My point is that they shouldn't be bred to be killed in the first place. Improving their conditions for the short time between birth and killing is a small step, but that's all it is, a woefully small step in animal welfare. And to pretend it's such a massive thing, and we can now all go back to happily eating all we want without having to have a band conscience now and then is just lying to yourself, nothing more.

I really don't see why and I promise I amn't lying to myself.

Turn it around to humans for a moment. Would you rather live a good life for 20 years and then die (for whatever reason) or live a terrible life for 20 years and then die. It is no small difference, it's the only thing that matters.

Every living thing dies, it's what happens in the interim between our birth and ultimate demise that matters.

Shenshen

virmilitaris wrote: »

I really don't see why and I promise I amn't lying to myself.

Turn it around to humans for a moment. Would you rather live a good life for 20 years and then die (for whatever reason) or live a terrible life for 20 years and then die. It is no small difference, it's the only thing that matters.

Every living thing dies, it's what happens in the interim between our birth and ultimate demise that matters.

Again, I said that yes, it does make a difference.
But pretending that it is all that matters is simply dishonest. Turn it around to humans : Would you prefer to live for 20 years and then be killed off in the nicest way possible, or would you prefer to live to about 70 and then die of natural causes?