Teenage councelling - Mother refusing

lucy2010

A very raw area.........

As the mothers signature is required for their child to receive councelling; what do you do if the mum refuses? If the child is now a suicide risk what do you do ? Does the school involve social services despite one parent being 100% interested in the welfare of their child ?

mariaalice

Your GP is your best bet in this situation ...If a GP advises counselling and writes a referral letter that might be enough to persuade a reluctant parent that counselling is a good course of action....but you have to listen to all sides sometimes people have a real concern about a course of action.

lucy2010

Can a father bring a child to the doctor without the mothers consent ?

Bluefoam

The first thing that comes to my mind is that the mother is trying to stop the child from revealing something to the councilor...

This raises many questions.

willow tree

what age 'child'? ive never heard this.. if someone is suicidal and there mother doesnt want them to get help, well i would think the mother would be overruled by any 'powers that be'.. who said that you need mothers permission?just interested..i thought a teen could just go to a therapist?

lucy2010

The school have contacted us yet again to make us aware of an alarming situation. Any councellor in the past cannot see the child ( 15) without the mothers written consent as she is her " legal" guardian. This is the 3rd time & we simply do not no what to do now.

LadyMayBelle

Where there is a risk of suicide, situations change. The parent's consent isn't needed in that incident but perhaps the school do not feel she as at risk but want to catch up with her before things head that way..why haven't the parent's been to the GP and why are they stoppnig her seeing someone when help has been offerd three times?? Does she want to see someone?

Something's not very clear here.

seamus

lucy2010 wrote: »

Can a father bring a child to the doctor without the mothers consent ?

Absolutely, provided that he has not had legal guardianship/custody removed from him.

lucy2010 wrote: »

The school have contacted us yet again to make us aware of an alarming situation. Any councellor in the past cannot see the child ( 15) without the mothers written consent as she is her " legal" guardian. This is the 3rd time & we simply do not no what to do now.

I'm unclear as to what your position is on this. If you're a social services professional, then surely you have access to the resources to deal with this? If you're not, then I don't understand why the school are contacting you.

Contact the department of social protection and ask them to intervene.

Personally, if I felt that the child was at a very real risk of suicide and nobody willing to help, I wouldn't be tip-toeing around legal statutes. I would get the child some help and deal with the legal fallout afterwards.

angelfire9

lucy2010 wrote: »

Can a father bring a child to the doctor without the mothers consent ?

If the parents are married, yes as he has automatic guardianship
If the parents are unmarried its not so simple!

lucy2010

Read above - its 1 parent; the mother who is blocking all this. The father has been informed by the school but the system ie the councellors cannot see her without written consent of the mother. The father wants to fix it now through whatever powers - but apart from removing the child from the mothers custody, with no doubt a scene happening & physicly taking her what can he do? - Thats the question.

coffee_cake

seamus wrote: »

Absolutely, provided that he has not had legal guardianship/custody removed from him.
I'm unclear as to what your position is on this. If you're a social services professional, then surely you have access to the resources to deal with this? If you're not, then I don't understand why the school are contacting you.

Contact the department of social protection and ask them to intervene.

Personally, if I felt that the child was at a very real risk of suicide and nobody willing to help, I wouldn't be tip-toeing around legal statutes. I would get the child some help and deal with the legal fallout afterwards.

Someone related to/seeing the father is my guess? Especially as the mother is the "legal guardian" in this case

willow tree

im a bit confused.. but one thing is clear, this 15 year old needs support right now, any way possible.. there is no excuse for the high level of suicide and lack of support of depressed teens in the country, the sooner we open up as a society and have school counsellors the better.. she coudl go to her dr and get a referral couldnt she?

January

I'm assuming since the school are contacting the father that he has guardianship? If so he can bring her to the doctor without the mothers permission

lucy2010

seamus wrote: »

Absolutely, provided that he has not had legal guardianship/custody removed from him.
I'm unclear as to what your position is on this. If you're a social services professional, then surely you have access to the resources to deal with this? If you're not, then I don't understand why the school are contacting you.

Contact the department of social protection and ask them to intervene.

Personally, if I felt that the child was at a very real risk of suicide and nobody willing to help, I wouldn't be tip-toeing around legal statutes. I would get the child some help and deal with the legal fallout afterwards.

Thank you Seamus - Its my partners daughter. Thats how we feel. Help her in every means possibly. We have been refused the right to see her this morning to take her to GP. SHe has been kept off school despite the school councellor having an appointment with her - kept off school to go to the cinema !!! Her phone has also been taken off her so we have no contact since in the school yesterday. No follow up.

SO apart from arriving over there & a dispute happening - hardly in best interest of child.

angelfire9

Was your partner married to the child's mother at any stage or did he not apply for legal guardianship when the child was born (if they never married)

If they were ever married he still has legal guardianship unless the child's mother went to court to have his guardianship removed (which is fairly unusual and the courts are not trigger happy in doing so)

Regardless of whether married parents separate or divorce further down the line guardianship remains in place for both parents unless court ordered otherwise

If the parents never married the father needs to get his ass in gear and start applying for guardianship NOW
If the mother objects her behaviour in relation to current issues will be taken into consideration by the courts

By the way....
If the mother of the child refused permission to the child's father to see the girl this morning unless there is a court order (barring order or protection order) in place the mother has no legal right to refuse and you could theoretically get the Gardai involved!

paperclip2

Maybe the public health nurse could also check in on your partners daughter. You usually can contact them through the local health centre or the GP's office can give you a contact number.

Would a call to the home school liaison officer be appropriate? If shes been kept out of school at 15 for no good reason then they could legitimately get involved?
Maybe you could speak to the school about that?

I hope things work out OP.

lucy2010

she was with her mother last night at the suggestion of the school, they arranged to speak with her this morning but mother has kept her off school ( in knowing this woman basicly , I would guess it is so the child doesnt speak to them). The child has contacted another principal as well as her own & asked for help; hence both them contacting us - the issue appears to be emotional abuse from the mother. On route to school & solicitor now . It has to be what is in her best interest so arriving to the home may cause further duress. Telephone & internet access have been suspended so we have no contact with her - simply just to see is she ok this morning.

They married after she was born but he is listed on her birth certificate so i dont know if that effects guardianship laws.

lucy2010

Thanks so much for all your helpful replies. Her father is simply so worried & is trying his best to stay on the right side of the law. Just to add mother has always refused a legal seperation or a divorce. - - Just to give an insight into what we are dealing with here.

angelfire9

lucy2010 wrote: »

They married after she was born but he is listed on her birth certificate so i dont know if that effects guardianship laws.

He has guardianship then

Citzens Information wrote:

Marriage after the child is born

If the parents of a child marry each other after the birth, then the father automatically becomes a joint guardian of the child. There is therefore no need to apply for guardianship rights nor is there any need for the father to adopt the child.

Source: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/cohabiting_couples/legal_guardianship_and_unmarried_couples.html

This means he has every right to bring her to the doctor and if the mother refuses her to let him have custody of the child for that purpose you can call the Gardai!
Likewise he has the legal right to sign any consent forms etc etc

angelfire9

lucy2010 wrote: »

Thanks so much for all your helpful replies. Her father is simply so worried & is trying his best to stay on the right side of the law. Just to add mother has always refused a legal seperation or a divorce. - - Just to give an insight into what we are dealing with here.

FYI he can still get divorced if he wants to provided they have lived apart for the specified period
It just means the divorce will be contested and things will probably get nasty from the sounds of it!

smelltheglove

OP best of luck with this, I hope the girl is ok. Going to the school and solicitor are the best steps to take but also contact the local health nurse too as you may find that she can take steps to protect the child quicker than the solicitor, i.e. refer the issue to social services if required who can remove her from her mothers care. Also have the school put in writing their concerns for her so you have black and white evidence rather than hearsay.

metrovelvet

This is a really grey area. There have been successful lawsuits over one parent making decisions without the others consent.

Theoretically in Ireland you need a unanimous decision and signatures etc, but I have never been asked for a signature or proof of sole guarsianship either,so the reality as far as I can see is that you can do it because the doctors wont stop it, but if the other parent finds out then the meds are vulnerable to a lawsuit.

James Jones

seamus wrote: »

lucy2010 wrote: »

Can a father bring a child to the doctor without the mothers consent ?

Absolutely, provided that he has not had legal guardianship/custody removed from him.

You mean Absolutely NOT!!!

January wrote: »

I'm assuming since the school are contacting the father that he has guardianship? If so he can bring her to the doctor without the mothers permission

NO he can't.

angelfire9 wrote: »

If they were ever married he still has legal guardianship unless the child's mother went to court to have his guardianship removed (which is fairly unusual and the courts are not trigger happy in doing so)
Regardless of whether married parents separate or divorce further down the line guardianship remains in place for both parents unless court ordered otherwise!

Simply not true!!

Married parents act JOINTLY according to Section 6.-(1) of the Guardianship of Infants Act. That is why the counselor won't see the child without the mothers consent.
Guardianship CANNOT be removed from married parents according to Supreme Court precedent B. Vs B. (1970) where Judge Walsh J. stated (page 61) as follows:
"Section 6 of the Act states the equality of the parents and recognises them as the guardians of the infant; there is nothing in any provision of the Act which purports to confer on the court or any other body the power to displace either one or both of the parents from the position of guardian or guardians".

Your only hope is an emergency application to Court which can be made even if the father is unmarried and not yet a Guardian.

Morag

I suggest the father go today and talk to the principal of the school and in light of what has happened with the child being kept out of school both the father and the principal should contact socail workers as the child is at risk, asking for help and the mother is obstructing it.

James Jones

Sorry but I posted without reading all of the replies.

angelfire9 wrote: »

He has guardianship then.This means he has every right to bring her to the doctor and if the mother refuses her to let him have custody of the child for that purpose you can call the Gardai!
Likewise he has the legal right to sign any consent forms etc etc

Wrong!

metrovelvet wrote: »

This is a really grey area. There have been successful lawsuits over one parent making decisions without the others consent.

Theoretically in Ireland you need a unanimous decision and signatures etc, but I have never been asked for a signature or proof of sole guarsianship either,so the reality as far as I can see is that you can do it because the doctors wont stop it, but if the other parent finds out then the meds are vulnerable to a lawsuit.

At last! Someone who knows what they are talking about. I don't think there have been any successful lawsuits yet but there have been cases similar to this in the Equality Tribunal.

angelfire9

I was in a serious car accident with my daughter when she was 5
I was in a medically induced coma for 4 days during which time my husband (her father) made several life saving decisions as regards our daughter's health

As JOINT guardian he has the right to make those types of decisions that's what guardianship means

metrovelvet

angelfire9 wrote: »

I was in a serious car accident with my daughter when she was 5
I was in a medically induced coma for 4 days during which time my husband (her father) made several life saving decisions as regards our daughter's health

As JOINT guardian he has the right to make those types of decisions that's what guardianship means

Your husband had that right because he was your next of kin.

An unwed father would still have to negotiate with the mother's healthcare proxy if she went into a coma or was incapacitated to make any decisions.

angelfire9

metrovelvet wrote: »

Your husband had that right because he was your next of kin.

An unwed father would still have to negotiate with the mother's healthcare proxy if she went into a coma or was incapacitated to make any decisions.

When we were in the accident my mother made all the decisions regarding my care (she's a nurse) my husband made the decisions for our daughter but I would presume he had to sign off on the paperwork for both of us (i've no idea I was comatose after all)

Back on topic:
The OP's partner is married to the child's mother so legally he has the same rights and responsibilities towards his daughter as my husband had towards our daughter

willow tree

i feel so sad for that girl, she really needs support, i hope you can get her some.. if theres a family resource centre near by, they may help..

James Jones

angelfire9 wrote: »

I was in a serious car accident with my daughter when she was 5.I was in a medically induced coma for 4 days during which time my husband (her father) made several life saving decisions as regards our daughter's health.
As JOINT guardian he has the right to make those types of decisions that's what guardianship means

Angelfire, Your situation was an emergency. Check out THESE GUIDELINES which are for non emergency situations, such as counselling.


EDIT:

angelfire9 wrote: »

The OP's partner is married to the child's mother so legally he has the same rights and responsibilities towards his daughter as my husband had towards our daughter

You'd be quite shocked if you were aware of the lack of THE RESPECT FOR THE rights of separated fathers.

liliq

James Jones wrote: »

Angelfire, Your situation was an emergency. Check out THESE GUIDELINES which are for non emergency situations, such as counselling.

Risk of suicide isn't an emergency?