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Teenage councelling - Mother refusing

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    #32
    angelfire9
    Registered Users Posts: 2,226 ✭✭✭angelfire9


    liliq wrote: »
    Risk of suicide isn't an emergency?

    That was my thought as well
    If the child is suicidal and the mother is in denial (as appears to be the case) surely it is the father's DUTY to bring his daughter to the doctor


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    #33
    Ayla
    Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Ayla


    Personally, if my hubby & I were estranged & I thought one of our kids was in a suicidal position but he was refusing them care, I wouldn't care about legalities. I would talk to a solicitor and the guardi just so it's all on record (and maybe I'd get their help), and I'd get any school/health professionals reports for the file, but wild horses couldn't keep me away from helping my child.

    Surely, if the case went to court there would be enough evidence that the mother is neglecting, or maybe deliberately harming, the child. As the father (who, if I understand correctly, is still technically married to the mother) he has the responsibility to help the child who is clearly calling out for help but unable to obtain it herself b/c of her age. This is what Social Services & the guardi are for, and the father has to be there to help her get away from the mother.


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    #34
    James Jones
    Registered Users Posts: 534 ✭✭✭James Jones


    liliq wrote: »
    James Jones wrote: »
    Angelfire, Your situation was an emergency. Check out THESE GUIDELINES which are for non emergency situations, such as counselling.
    Risk of suicide isn't an emergency?

    Who, other than the father and lucy2010, has said the girl is suicidal? If the school claim she is, then they should inform a psychiatrist and bring the matter to the attention of the Gardai. There is notheing to stop them.
    If , on the other hand, the father thinks she is suicidal and he takes any action but is found to be in the wrong, he jeopardizes any future contact he has with his daughter and it sounds as if she will need him.
    Ayla wrote: »
    Personally, if my hubby & I were estranged & I thought one of our kids was in a suicidal position but he was refusing them care, I wouldn't care about legalities.
    You are obviously unaware of the way the Family Law courts deal with fathers.
    Ayla wrote: »
    Surely, if the case went to court there would be enough evidence that the mother is neglecting, or maybe deliberately harming, the child.
    No evidence has been mentioned yet so I don't know how you can make such an assumption.
    Ayla wrote: »
    As the father (who, if I understand correctly, is still technically married to the mother) he has the responsibility to help the child who is clearly calling out for help but unable to obtain it herself b/c of her age. This is what Social Services & the guardi are for, and the father has to be there to help her get away from the mother.

    Yes. This is what he should do but if Social Services find there is no abuse, then the father will have to live with the aftermath.


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    #35
    Ayla
    Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Ayla


    they [the school] arranged to speak with her this morning but mother has kept her off school ... the child has contacted another principal as well as her own & asked for help; hence both them contacting us
    The school have contacted us yet again to make us aware of an alarming situation.
    The father has been informed by the school
    SHe has been kept off school despite the school councellor having an appointment with her

    Well, if the school records/failure to show for appointments/a request from help from the child herself doesn't count as "evidence" i don't know what does.


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    #36
    CK2010
    Closed Accounts Posts: 543 ✭✭✭CK2010


    if shes 15 she can go to her GP without a parent.
    she can bring a friend for support if she wants. you yourself can go with her if she wanted.

    this way she might get a referral for a counsellor and it'll be put on her notes as an issue she herself wants dealt with. if mother refuses there is proof on her records that the child wants it.

    im sure she can say shes going shopping or something to her mother in order to get away and someone can meet her at the GP, even your partner.

    record everything from the school (missed meetings etc) and GP visit dates, contact the public health nurse, and then get some legal advice.

    hope you get it sorted.


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    #37
    James Jones
    Registered Users Posts: 534 ✭✭✭James Jones


    Ayla wrote: »
    Quote:
    they [the school] arranged to speak with her this morning but mother has kept her off school ... the child has contacted another principal as well as her own & asked for help; hence both them contacting us
    Quote:
    The school have contacted us yet again to make us aware of an alarming situation.
    Quote:
    The father has been informed by the school
    Quote:
    SHe has been kept off school despite the school councellor having an appointment with her.

    Well, if the school records/failure to show for appointments/a request from help from the child herself doesn't count as "evidence" i don't know what does.
    From the looks of it, all of the above is Hearsay evidence and documentation would be needed to verify it. Has the school kept records of all contact?
    CK2010 wrote: »
    if shes 15 she can go to her GP without a parent.

    I think you might be wrong there. According to Section 23.-(1) of the Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person Act 1997 "The consent of a minor who has attained the age of 16 years to any surgical, medical or dental treatment which, in the absence of consent, would constitute a trespass to his or her person, shall be as effective as it would be if he or she were of full age". Maybe this has been amended recently but I don't think so.


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    #38
    CK2010
    Closed Accounts Posts: 543 ✭✭✭CK2010


    James Jones wrote: »
    From the looks of it, all of the above is Hearsay evidence and documentation would be needed to verify it. Has the school kept records of all contact?

    I think you might be wrong there. According to Section 23.-(1) of the Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person Act 1997 "The consent of a minor who has attained the age of 16 years to any surgical, medical or dental treatment which, in the absence of consent, would constitute a trespass to his or her person, shall be as effective as it would be if he or she were of full age". Maybe this has been amended recently but I don't think so.


    well i guess not all GPs know of this, or it has changed, because i went to my GP alone at 14 and recieved medicine as well. and again at 15 with another GP. no parent needed. so it could be worth a try with her own GP.


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    #39
    lucy2010
    Registered Users Posts: 774 ✭✭✭lucy2010


    Good morning & thanks for all your responses. Everyone has a different view which I appreciate but what boiled back here was the Welfare of a child ( shes still a child at 15) .You would think it would be simple but god what we have been through since yesterday . Between the school authorities & a solicitor we got her to a GP. Then with GP, school authorities & solicitor as well as the guards being involved the child has been removed from the care of her mother & has received emergency councelling & emergency medical treatment .. She was an immediate risk & we were all right to be concerned. Now it was not as straight forward as above but the bottom line is the child is safe now & doing so much better today. She is talking openly & whilst there is a lot still to work at a start has been made to improving her welfare. It will now be a long battle in the courts to keep the situation as it is now but a child is now receiving the proper care.We were lucky & had a team of different people all working together to help her - The next child may not be so lucky as the system is so terribly flawed. What gets lost in the arguing is the childs welfare which thank God now is now being properly looked after. Thanks again for all your advice.


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    #40
    Daisy M
    Registered Users Posts: 1,559 ✭✭✭Daisy M


    Best of luck to you all I hope it works out for your partners child.


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    #41
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    CK2010 wrote: »
    well i guess not all GPs know of this, or it has changed, because i went to my GP alone at 14 and recieved medicine as well. and again at 15 with another GP. no parent needed. so it could be worth a try with her own GP.

    Its because the meds in Ireland dont follow legal protocols.


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    #42
    Ayla
    Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Ayla


    OP - first & of the only importance, I'm glad your partner's child is getting the care that she needs.

    JamesJones, all you have done during this entire thread is shot down whatever opinions/suggestions and comments were made while backing up your "arguments" with legalities. Of course it's essential to work within the legal structure but if you were the OP, what would you have done? If you had a genuine concern for your child or that of your partner, but the child's mother was in the way, what exactly would you do?


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    #43
    James Jones
    Registered Users Posts: 534 ✭✭✭James Jones


    Ayla wrote: »
    OP - first & of the only importance, I'm glad your partner's child is getting the care that she needs.
    +1
    Ayla wrote: »
    JamesJones, all you have done during this entire thread is shot down whatever opinions/suggestions and comments were made while backing up your "arguments" with legalities. Of course it's essential to work within the legal structure but if you were the OP, what would you have done? If you had a genuine concern for your child or that of your partner, but the child's mother was in the way, what exactly would you do?

    The problem is, Ayla, when parents disagree, the legalities is what will count in the long run.
    10 years ago, before I separated, I would have advised this girls father to just go to the mothers house and take her with him, because he is the father and it is his job to protect her.


    NOW,
    having been through the mill, I would be much more cautious. My story HERE and HERE might give you an idea why I would be so cautious given that it resulted in THESE GUIDELINES being introduced but ignored. You ever hear of the constitutional protection of the family? The State authorities walk all over those when it suits them.

    EDIT: By the way, I'm quite shocked at the general lack of understanding or Guardianship among parents but I suppose I was the same before I learnt the hard way.


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    #44
    Ayla
    Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Ayla


    Ok, I can see that your story consists of being left out of the loop concerning your daughter's medical care. Definitely a bad/wrong situation, but not exactly what the OP's facing...

    Here (based only on what the OP's said, b/c that's all the info we have), the child was directly suffering due to the willful neglect of her mother. Appointments weren't kept, references were ignored, requests for councelling were unauthorised. Any court of law would recognize that the mother was, in this case, acting irresponsibly. That is where the father - as mutually legal guardian of the child - has the right and responsibility to interceed. That's why I said that if the case went to court his rights would (or at least should) be respected.

    Btw, you haven't answered my question of what would you do in the OP's case?


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    #45
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Ayla wrote: »
    Ok, I can see that your story consists of being left out of the loop concerning your daughter's medical care. Definitely a bad/wrong situation, but not exactly what the OP's facing...

    Here (based only on what the OP's said, b/c that's all the info we have), the child was directly suffering due to the willful neglect of her mother. Appointments weren't kept, references were ignored, requests for councelling were unauthorised. Any court of law would recognize that the mother was, in this case, acting irresponsibly. That is where the father - as mutually legal guardian of the child - has the right and responsibility to interceed. That's why I said that if the case went to court his rights would (or at least should) be respected.

    Btw, you haven't answered my question of what would you do in the OP's case?

    When you are dealing with single or divorced parents any deviation from accepted norms of standard protocols will possibly be held against you in court in a character assassination, so people in these circumstances cant go renegade or it will possibly be held against them at a later date.

    So if a non custodial, even with guardianship gets medical treatment behind the back of the custodial parent, without legal back up such as a judge's order or whatever, they can get in big trouble or it be marked against them.

    Take something like vaccinations. Its pretty standard to follow the accepted recommendations of vaccines. If one parent deviates to obstruct that accepted norm it will be used against them.

    There could be many reasons why someone would refuse psychiatric intervention for their child.

    And no one has ever asked me in Ireland for proof of sole guardianship, from GP to surgeons. NEVER.


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    #46
    Ayla
    Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Ayla


    But that's the thing, the father & mother are still married! Apparently the mother refused him a divorce:
    Her father is simply so worried & is trying his best to stay on the right side of the law. Just to add mother has always refused a legal seperation or a divorce. - - Just to give an insight into what we are dealing with here.


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    #47
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Ayla wrote: »
    But that's the thing, the father & mother are still married! Apparently the mother refused him a divorce:

    Thats a legal technicality. They are still behaving as seperated parents. And everything JJ and I are saying applies.


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    #48
    Ayla
    Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Ayla


    Doesn't bloddy matter...let's look at the facts as we know them:

    1) The parents are married but the father doesn't live with the mother.
    2) The father is still involved in the child's life
    3) The father attempted to get a divorce but the mother refused even a seperation
    4) The mother is willfully neglecting to care for the child
    5) Both parents have guardianship and custody (even if the child mainly resides with her mother, custody was never refused to the father)

    The father does have rights, or at least he can get Social Services involved if he's scared of the legalities.

    Again, I've would say that I wouldn't care about legalities if I was the father. The care of the child is the only priority, and they could put me in jail if required until the "legalities" were fought through.


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    #49
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    If we're going to get into another debate about rights, please take the discussion to Humanities as it has no place here. The OP came looking for advice and they've gotten it.


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    #50
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Im not arguing about rights at all. Im saying that making unilateral medical decisions without legal back up could affect a custody suit up the road.

    Ayla - you would care about the legalities if it meant you wouldnt see your kids if a judge felt you were behaving out of line.


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    #51
    Ayla
    Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Ayla


    Metrovelvet - that (the making medical decisions unilateraly) is exactly what the mother's doing now by refusing the daughter the care recommended for her. And I hardly think that a father insisting on this care/treatment/counceling would be seen as being "out of line" by any judge. Surely if the child has now been taken away from the mother any court would see that the father's actions were justified.

    In any case, as said before, I'm glad the child is now in good care & being looked after.


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    #52
    liliq
    Registered Users Posts: 2,242 ✭✭✭liliq


    I wouldn't care about the legalities if adhering to them meant I ran the risk of losing my child to suicide.

    Apart from the rights the father or mother has as a guardian, surely there are obligations and responsibilites as well, that would include ensuring a minor that is your responsibility recieves the medical attention they a. need and b. are actually requesting?
    Could a guardian not be deemed negligent if a child seeing medical attention like this was ignored, and if the worst happenend?

    (I'm not saying this how it is, just how I would assume it is without knowing any better)


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    #53
    James Jones
    Registered Users Posts: 534 ✭✭✭James Jones


    Ayla wrote: »

    Btw, you haven't answered my question of what would you do in the OP's case?
    James Jones wrote: »
    Ayla wrote: »
    As the father (who, if I understand correctly, is still technically married to the mother) he has the responsibility to help the child who is clearly calling out for help but unable to obtain it herself b/c of her age. This is what Social Services & the guardi are for, and the father has to be there to help her get away from the mother.

    Yes. This is what he should do but if Social Services find there is no abuse, then the father will have to live with the aftermath.
    I agreed with you and you didn't even see it!


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    #54
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    Great - another train-wreck thread. Ayla and James Jones - take your arguing to PM and out of this thread.


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    #55
    Herb Powell
    Registered Users Posts: 3,097 ✭✭✭Herb Powell


    I know a lad who was 16, committed suicide exactly one month ago
    In all honesty OP, **** the legalities, get that person help. Suicide leaves a huge void, and it's not worth wasting time thinking about legalities at all, if it saves a life.


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    #56
    lucy2010
    Registered Users Posts: 774 ✭✭✭lucy2010


    James Jones wrote: »
    From the looks of it, all of the above is Hearsay evidence and documentation would be needed to verify it. Has the school kept records of all contact?

    I think you might be wrong there. According to Section 23.-(1) of the Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person Act 1997 "The consent of a minor who has attained the age of 16 years to any surgical, medical or dental treatment which, in the absence of consent, would constitute a trespass to his or her person, shall be as effective as it would be if he or she were of full age". Maybe this has been amended recently but I don't think so.


    Just an update. Yes school kept all evidence of contact with dad as we have now found out there has been nothing with mum at all. They have never spoken or met her even thorough everything since day 1. Following very first incident she never responded to any contact verbal & written they made. She also advised she had attended parent teacher meeting but must have made up a load of fibs as she never attended. We were not aware of this & believed she had attended.

    The school were excellent & even our solicitor spoke with them on numerous occasions in the last week as they too wanted to be damn sure all the Ts were crossed & there was no fallback on dad from this . We brought her to a GP as instructed by school. Turns out has not been seen by a doctor in 4 years despite various conditions . We were advised by mum she attended regularly - this is not the case.GP referred immediately to state councelling. As waiting list was 18mth plus we had to get a letter off them plus letter off school & managed to get immediate private help minus the mums consent. Mum has had no contact with anyone including the child since incident last week. GP & school have both seen an improvement in her since removal from mums care & in their findings have issued letters to solicitor requesting she remain with us. Whether this is worth anything i dont know.
    Legally where we stand - Following the violent outburst to remove the child from here last week - she cannot arrive again & threaten to remove the child as the child ( 15) has a voice & has said NO i want to stay. If she does she & is threatening the gardai are called again. She ( mum) must now make an application to the courts to have her removed due to dad not being fit. Thats our legal position until divorce is filed for. She has refused in the past to sign any legal seperation or divorce so dad assumes same rights as when they were a couple living under same roof. Its a mess & poor little thing is all I care about. She came in the clothes she was wearing. But unknown to us she was moving clothes over bit by bit & hiding them. Her exams start wednesday & we have just spent the last week allowing her to speak when need be & trying to settle her into a normal household family environment. God love her TBH & the horrendous stuff she is now spilling out freely would just shock you.

    Now if anyone has any advice on the next steps I would very much appreciate it. We are newbies to any of this & are totally out of out depth TBH.


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    #57
    liliq
    Registered Users Posts: 2,242 ✭✭✭liliq


    lucy2010 wrote: »
    Now if anyone has any advice on the next steps I would very much appreciate it. We are newbies to any of this & are totally out of out depth TBH.

    Sounds like you both just need to keep doing what you're doing and be there for her.
    Sounds like both the school and solicitor and doing their best to make sure she's looked after as well, which is brilliant.
    The poor girl must have been having a really rough time of if and too scared to tell anyone til now. If she's talking, that's probably the best thing she can do and it's a credit to you both that she's opening up to you after the time she's had of it.
    She'll probably be fairly stressed over the exams as well, so make sure she goes easy on herself and doesn't put herself under too much pressure with them.


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    #58
    Moonbeam
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,953 Mod ✭✭✭✭Moonbeam


    Just let her know that she is loved and you are there to support her but do not put too much pressure on her.
    You sound like you are doing a good job:)
    Good luck!


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    #59
    lucy2010
    Registered Users Posts: 774 ✭✭✭lucy2010


    Yes - we are really into unknown territory as we have only been dealing with the younger kiddies.... Now its teenage strops & hair straighteners ! ( I say that in jest - bring it all on !)
    But with regards the studying etc I feel its all about a calmness for the next 2 weeks to try get her through.
    As part of helping her to study I suggested we watch The boy in striped pyjames on DVD... It nearly killed me - shes sitting there explaining all about the contrasts of the evil of the partent & the innocence of the child while my heart is breaking.......... who ever said parenting was easy no matter whos kids they are!


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    #60
    lucy2010
    Registered Users Posts: 774 ✭✭✭lucy2010


    Herb Powell wrote: »
    I know a lad who was 16, committed suicide exactly one month ago
    In all honesty OP, **** the legalities, get that person help. Suicide leaves a huge void, and it's not worth wasting time thinking about legalities at all, if it saves a life.
    So sorry for your loss.... at that moment my partner was saying how in Gods name can I fix this quickly but felt he only had one chance & was not going to screw it up .


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    #61
    lucy2010
    Registered Users Posts: 774 ✭✭✭lucy2010


    Just a quick update.

    We are now 2 months on. Thankfully her councelling began on Monday. We unfortunately had to take her privately due to the waiting lists.

    Anyway heres a new one to throw into the pan - In order for us to take her on Monday we had to go down the private route of John of Gods. We are still in the public system as well, as John of Gods have a local public place too. Anyway when we started all this a fad of forms had to be filled out & the centre were sending a copy to us for dad & a copy to mum. Mum has responded to nothing they have sent, not filled in any paper work etc that was sent from both the public & the private centres. She has not answered their phonecalls & has not responded to anything basicly .They have had no response back from her at all.On Monday after handing over a scary amount of money he advised he needed mums consent to continue.My partner nearly choked as he thought we had gotten over all of this. He reminded the doctor that we have been through all this, the child needs help & the mum is just ignorning all paperwork & basicly ignorning the issue.
    The child has had very little contact off her mother in the 2 months - probably about 1 phonecall, 5 text messages & a 2 minute meeting out of the blue when her mother needed her key.
    The centre advised they can involve social services & have a social worker present if mum continues to ignore the issue. I just feel 2 months on this kid needs help & her mother is not cooperatng. Why must they have mums consent at this point, why isnt dads sufficient ? We also have the letters from school & doctor advising of no cooperation from mum...
    Has anyone been in a similar situation?


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