Legalize Cannabis Ireland

keithclancy

crazy cabbage wrote: »

Shhhhh. people general dont like facts in this debate.

Well its not really a fact is it, its Decriminalised in Portugal meaning the laws prohibiting it remain in place, its just that now there is no penalty for it.

I'm all for this ^^

I'm against Legalisation.

ScumLord

ryoishin wrote: »

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/07/05/ten-years-after-decriminalization-drug-abuse-down-by-half-in-portugal/

Never mind that story! Off the same site.

Actor Steven Seagal Sued for Driving Tank into Arizona Home, Killing Puppy

crazy cabbage

keithclancy wrote: »

Well its not really a fact is it, its Decriminalised in Portugal meaning the laws prohibiting it remain in place, its just that now there is no penalty for it.

I'm all for this ^^

I'm against Legalisation.

So basicly then it is ok to have it and use it but no ok to buy or grow it.

How is that supposed to work. That is sending out mixed messeges.

I am all for decriminalision becouse i dout if it will be out right legalised in one go.

Polititions are alot like children. you try and send a child to bed and they will flat out refuse and kick up a fuss. What you have to do is get them to go and brush there teath first. Then get them to put on there PJs. Then read them a book and sing them a song all before they will go to sleep.

Polititions are similuar. They simply will not do a U-turn on anything. They will not flat out leagilse anything they have spent so long campaining against. First we have to get them to ok it for medical use. Then decrimilise it. Then ok it for people who get a card saying they physicaly fit and sane by there doc. Then maby we can talk about legilising it.

This is silly i know but this is how it is going to happen. I am not happy about it but it is the only way to get things done

keithclancy

crazy cabbage wrote: »

This is silly i know but this is how it is going to happen. I am not happy about it but it is the only way to get things done

If your a recreational smoker then you better hope not.

If its legal then they can regulate and tax the hole off it.

Then the people growing weed would be subject to all sorts of crazy rules for growing the stuff making it much more expensive (talk to any smaller cheese maker and they'll agree)

In the end you'd end up with a state controlled, state regulated substance that would more than likely have duty and regulations on it like alcohol, tobacco, pharmaceuticals etc.

You'd probably end up with a black market anyway.

ScumLord

crazy cabbage wrote: »

Polititions are similuar. They simply will not do a U-turn on anything. They will not flat out leagilse anything they have spent so long campaining against. First we have to get them to ok it for medical use. Then decrimilise it. Then ok it for people who get a card saying they physicaly fit and sane by there doc. Then maby we can talk about legilising it.

Politicians will do whatever gets them the vote. They spend most their time hanging around at funerals and listening to old biddies complaining that they're entrenched in small town rhetoric.

Pretty much every political party has been shown to be spineless popularity whores, they're living in the past and there must surely be a shake up coming down the line. When that old generation are out of power we could see some big changes come through. Of course if the UK or Europe do it first we'll surely ape them and lose out on any economic advantage by being first out the gate.

crazy cabbage

keithclancy wrote: »

If your a recreational smoker then you better hope not.

If its legal then they can regulate and tax the hole off it.

I would rather give money to the goverment where it might go into building schools and bailing out banks and the health care system than giving it to a drug dealer which for all i know is buying guns and bombs for terrorist gangs.

ScumLord

keithclancy wrote: »

Then the people growing weed would be subject to all sorts of crazy rules for growing the stuff making it much more expensive (talk to any smaller cheese maker and they'll agree)

I've already gone over why a legal grow would be considerably cheaper than an illegal one, there would be plenty of scope for the government to tax it and still be cheaper than illegal weed.

In the end you'd end up with a state controlled, state regulated substance that would more than likely have duty and regulations on it like alcohol, tobacco, pharmaceuticals etc.

Where's the problem with that?

Gbear

Cannabis and all illegal drugs are incredibly expensive. The cost of tax (unless extremely high, which makes sense for something harmful like cigarettes which cost the state money in healthcare, but doesn't make sense for something as harmless as cannabis), regulation and so forth are nothing compared to the costs accrued by not being able to produce it on an industrial scale, having to pay people large amounts to sell it and having limited competition because of the risks involved and that's not even mentioning the lack of quality control and the lack of control in strength due to a lack of regulation.

Legalisation and regulation would increase the quality and decrease the cost of production while taking money out of the hands of criminals and putting into the hands of legitimate businesses and the coffers of the state.

The status quo is based on a dogmatic close-mindedness of those who oppose it - an irrational "yuck-response", and the spinelessness of politicians and their inability to do what's unpopular but the best for their country - also known as "doing their ****ing job."

The stupid thing is, if one of the big parties decided to move towards legalisation, the vast majority of their voters would fall into line if they made any effort to explain why it's a good idea. If one of the other parties tried to oppose it and win votes by calling them soft of drugs they could (legitimately) claim they were ignorant fools and not following the science.

keithclancy

ScumLord wrote: »

I've already gone over why a legal grow would be considerably cheaper than an illegal one, there would be plenty of scope for the government to tax it and still be cheaper than illegal weed.

Where's the problem with that?

Besides the Argument of why I don't want it legalised, it would be more expensive.

E.G. Pharmaceutical prices in Ireland are controlled by the HSE.
Alcohol, Cigarettes and Fuel prices are controlled by revenue.

You seem to have this idea in your head that the production price of weed would be reflected in the actual sale price and that any old tom dick or harry could just grow weed.

How much do you think a liter of fuel costs without Taxes ?

How much do you think a paracetamol tablet actually costs to manufacture ?

Wouldn't you prefer to buy from a local grower such as a Co-op rather than some large company that managed to get a license for it ?

E.G:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/10/us-dutch-cannabis-idUSTRE7296YJ20110310

Rather than like, Diageo, Heineken, GSK, Lamberts and Sons etc.

ScumLord

keithclancy wrote: »

E.G. Pharmaceutical prices in Ireland are controlled by the HSE.
Alcohol, Cigarettes and Fuel prices are controlled by revenue.

They are not controlled by revenue, revenue put they're tax on it but bar the minimum price lark they don't set prices.

You seem to have this idea in your head that the production price of weed would be reflected in the actual sale price and that any old tom dick or harry could just grow weed.

Yes production cost would be a tiny fraction of what illegal growers fork out, that's a fact. After that the government can only go so far. I would guess even if they put 50% tax on it, it wouldn't come close to street prices for illegal weed.

Wouldn't you prefer to buy from a local grower such as a Co-op rather than some large company that managed to get a license for it ?

I don't really care, the market will dictate those kind of things. A big company will make something like Heineken that appeals to the masses and is cheap, a smaller grower can make speciality weeds that cost more, like O'Haras. It's already happened in Amsterdam and California. You get what you pay for just like with wine.

crazy cabbage

keithclancy wrote: »

Besides the Argument of why I don't want it legalised, it would be more expensive.

You do realise that cannabis is currently worth more gram for gram than nearly anything else on earth (depending on quality and where you buy can be more expensive gram for gram than gold)

Making it legal can only drop the price

PogMoThoin

There is also the argument that cannabis grown indoors under lights is very bad for the environment

ScumLord

PogMoThoin wrote: »

There is also the argument that cannabis grown indoors under lights is very bad for the environment

It would be due to the illegal nature of the growing means there are no controls on chemicals and no opportunity to use more expensive equipment that generates much lower energy costs, ie LED.

If legal you could also make use of the sun by using grow tunnels. You can grow bananas in those things. Even in the states they use grow tunnels during colder months when there's snow outside to keep everything going.

Legal growers would instantly look for cost cutting measures, make use of better technology which would all contribute to cutting down on the environmental impact.

keithclancy

crazy cabbage wrote: »

You do realise that cannabis is currently worth more gram for gram than nearly anything else on earth (depending on quality and where you buy can be more expensive gram for gram than gold)

Making it legal can only drop the price

Me hole.

Just an example from http://www.medicijnkosten.nl/

10x20mg Viagra tablets
€ 60,57

That works out at 302.85 euro / gram.

My local coffee shop does 2.8 grams of K2 for 24 euros.

crazy cabbage

keithclancy wrote: »

Me hole.

Just an example from http://www.medicijnkosten.nl/

10x20mg Viagra tablets
€ 60,57

That works out at 302.85 euro / gram.

My local coffee shop does 2.8 grams of K2 for 24 euros.

Hence the almost :rolleyes:

and it is clearly going to be cheaper in a place that is is decrimilised.

Know someone who paid €25 for 1 gram (ok. he did say that it was good stuff)

Oranage2

It would be interesting enough to see if the same people that want cannabis legalized would they also like to see ecstasy, cocaine and heroin legalized?

fitzYOLO

Legalize Henry the horse plz

neiphin

Oranage2 wrote: »

It would be interesting enough to see if the same people that want cannabis legalized would they also like to see ecstasy, cocaine and heroin legalized?

have you seen many here call for that
yes or no will do

ScumLord

crazy cabbage wrote: »

Hence the almost :rolleyes:

and it is clearly going to be cheaper in a place that is is decrimilised.

Know someone who paid €25 for 1 gram (ok. he did say that it was good stuff)

I paid €40 for a gram of hash in Amsterdam. It was worth every penny though I've never had anything like it before or since.

Boombastic

keithclancy wrote: »

Did I say that it wasn't ?

FACT: If your quite chubby and smoke quite a bit, then exercise some days later you'll feel stoned again because the THC stored in your fat is released again.

But it can stay in your system for up to 6 weeks.

Alcohol is completely gone from your system in a few days.

Any links for that "FACT", I've tried googling and I get nothing, nada, zilch


@€;40/g in Amsterdam - They seen ya coming!!

crazy cabbage

Oranage2 wrote: »

It would be interesting enough to see if the same people that want cannabis legalized would they also like to see ecstasy, cocaine and heroin legalized?

I would want to see them decrimilised. Someone posted a link to an artical a while ago (i couldn't be bother look). Portucal have decrimilesed all drugs and have seen a 50% reduction in crime.

The artical basicly said that they were concentrating on treating these people instead of locking them up where the habit was only fuled, (not to mention falling in with more serious crinimals)

Would i want to see ecstasy, cocaine and heroin legalized?
I dont know. I 100% behind decrimilisation so that these people can get the help that they need but the difference between these and 'weed' is that theses are shown to be much more addictive and have actully have negative impact on people's lives.

ScumLord

Boombastic wrote: »

@€;40/g in Amsterdam - They seen ya coming!!

This was proper hash, not the stuff they pass off as hash over here. It's the strongest stuff you can buy and it will knock you on your hole within two drags. I'd tried all kinds of hash there because you can't really get proper hash outside of Amsterdam and other places where cannabis is legal.

Mickeroo

keithclancy wrote: »

The point being that the Scientific community know very little about the brain.

You keep saying that but you haven't said anything to make me think its true, which is why I asked you to elaborate your statement about epilepsy.

Boombastic

ScumLord wrote: »

This was proper hash, not the stuff they pass off as hash over here. It's the strongest stuff you can buy and it will knock you on your hole within two drags. I'd tried all kinds of hash there because you can't really get proper hash outside of Amsterdam and other places where cannabis is legal.

I don't doubt the quality, just seems expensive. Good hash is available in all good stores nationwide and usually cheaper outside of Amsterdam. Prices are hiked up a bit there for the tourists.

Last time I was up there one chancer tried to charge me €15 for a slice of pizza!!

Oranage2

neiphin wrote: »

have you seen many here call for that
yes or no will do

Well they havent not called for it so I dont know.

Is there really a big difference somebody smoking a bit of 'weed' or some lad having a few lines of 'coke' and having a good time?

crazy cabbage wrote: »

I would want to see them decrimilised. Someone posted a link to an artical a while ago (i couldn't be bother look). Portucal have decrimilesed all drugs and have seen a 50% reduction in crime.

The artical basicly said that they were concentrating on treating these people instead of locking them up where the habit was only fuled, (not to mention falling in with more serious crinimals)

Would i want to see ecstasy, cocaine and heroin legalized?
I dont know. I 100% behind decrimilisation so that these people can get the help that they need but the difference between these and 'weed' is that theses are shown to be much more addictive and have actully have negative impact on people's lives.

Interesting enough argument. I do think it's a bit harsh that a drug conviction for having a small bit of cannabis could have some serious consequences in terms of working and traveling. But I guess you know the risks.

How would decriminalizing work in terms of having drugs on your possession? will the Gardai just take it off you and send you on your way?

crazy cabbage

Oranage2 wrote: »

Well they havent not called for it so I dont know.

Is there really a big difference somebody smoking a bit of 'weed' or some lad having a few lines of 'coke' and having a good time?

Yes there is a big difference.

Oranage2 wrote: »

Interesting enough argument. I do think it's a bit harsh that a drug conviction for having a small bit of cannabis could have some serious consequences in terms of working and traveling. But I guess you know the risks.

How would decriminalizing work in terms of having drugs on your possession? will the Gardai just take it off you and send you on your way?

In the netherlands you are aloud to have 5g of weed on your person, 1 ounce in your home and 5 plants growing at any one time (correct me if figures are out. Im not 100% sure)
I would like to see something similar for cannabis in this county

However i dont think the same can be easly applied to harder drugs. They dont grow in your back yard as such. They are produced in a lab/ have alot of messing around with the raw product. I wouldn't be comfortable with people setting up labs in there homes to manufacture hard drugs.

I would decrimilise them simple so the people who use them can be treated like addicts and not crinimals. I wouldn't advise/ condone people taking them.

One of my main arguments for the full legilasation of cannabis and not just decrimilasation is that if you decrimilise it you are saying that it is ok to have it and use it but not ok to buy it or grow it.
With these hard drugs like coke the difference is that we wouldn't be saying that it is ok to use it. What we would be saying is that it is a terrible thing to do but if you do do it society will not turn its back on you and trow you in jail where you will meat worse crinamals and come out 100 times worse than you went in.
If people are cought with coke or other class A drugs i would still like to see gards take them off you.


However if we legilise cannabis stattics from the netherlands show that the use of harder drugs (heroin) goes down.

Oranage2

crazy cabbage wrote: »

Yes there is a big difference.



In the netherlands you are aloud to have 5g of weed on your person, 1 ounce in your home and 5 plants growing at any one time (correct me if figures are out. Im not 100% sure)
I would like to see something similar for cannabis in this county

However i dont think the same can be easly applied to harder drugs. They dont grow in your back yard as such. They are produced in a lab/ have alot of messing around with the raw product. I wouldn't be comfortable with people setting up labs in there homes to manufacture hard drugs.

I would decrimilise them simple so the people who use them can be treated like addicts and not crinimals. I wouldn't advise/ condone people taking them.

One of my main arguments for the full legilasation of cannabis and not just decrimilasation is that if you decrimilise it you are saying that it is ok to have it and use it but not ok to buy it or grow it.
With these hard drugs like coke the difference is that we wouldn't be saying that it is ok to use it. What we would be saying is that it is a terrible thing to do but if you do do it society will not turn its back on you and trow you in jail where you will meat worse crinamals and come out 100 times worse than you went in.
If people are cought with coke or other class A drugs i would still like to see gards take them off you.


However if we legilise cannabis stattics from the netherlands show that the use of harder drugs (heroin) goes down.

I dont really get this mentality that cannabis is ok to use but coke and heroin arent!

What's the big difference between them anyway. There are people out there that work 9-5 and smoke a bit of heroin in the evening just like cannabis, and others will argue that cocaine isnt anymore harmful than cannabis.

I've lived with a stoner and I can say cannabis is addictive and does have negative effects.

Daninho

Oranage2 wrote: »

I dont really get this mentality that cannabis is ok to use but coke and heroin arent!

What's the big difference between them anyway. There are people out there that work 9-5 and smoke a bit of heroin in the evening just like cannabis, and others will argue that cocaine isnt anymore harmful than cannabis.

That says a lot about your knowledge on this topic although to be fair you are no less ignorant than many other anti-legalisation of cannabis on this thread. There is a huge difference in that cocaine and heroin are inherently addictive substances wheres there is no such chemical addiction in cannabis as has been proven.

I would be interested to know if you have tried any of the substances you propose to know so much about.

As for your contention that there are people who work 9 to 5 and regularly smoke heroin in the evening, I don't believe that to be true whatsoever.

And those who argue cocaine isn't any more harmful than cannabis are just plain wrong.

Ciaran0

Oranage2 wrote: »

I dont really get this mentality that cannabis is ok to use but coke and heroin arent!

What's the big difference between them anyway. There are people out there that work 9-5 and smoke a bit of heroin in the evening just like cannabis, and others will argue that cocaine isnt anymore harmful than cannabis.

I've lived with a stoner and I can say cannabis is addictive and does have negative effects.

Heroin and Cocaine are harmful to the users health. Cannabis has never once been conclusively proven to damage health(Well it's harmful if you smoke it but it's the THC I'm talking about). In this article the effect of each of the three drugs are listed. You can see which has the bigger list of side effects.

crazy cabbage

Oranage2 wrote: »

I dont really get this mentality that cannabis is ok to use but coke and heroin arent!

What's the big difference between them anyway. There are people out there that work 9-5 and smoke a bit of heroin in the evening just like cannabis, and others will argue that cocaine isnt anymore harmful than cannabis.

I've lived with a stoner and I can say cannabis is addictive and does have negative effects.

To be perfectly honest i dont know that much about coke or heroin. I am open to the debate though and learning.
Arnt' they much much much more addictive than cannabis though? (in a study cannabis was found to be less addictive than coffee. cocaine and heroin were well above coffee. See a documentry called the union for more)
And havent people died from overdoses or cocaine and heroin.(no on has ever died as a direct result of cannabis
Correct me if i am wrong of course.

I support freewill fully and if people want to take these i am not going to stop them. I just think that it is a different debate than the cannabis debate for the above reasons.

Cannabis can help people. Cocaine, from what little i do know of it, does nothing but ruin peoples lives