Legalize Cannabis Ireland

Daninho

neiphin wrote: »

tread going on for15 months,
your first post yesterday

And your point is? I think it is only rational that in order to keep up with a topic that one would read the most recent posts, that's kind of what 'follow' means. And as you pointed out, my first post was yesterday, I have posted 5 or 6 on this thread since then and in fact read about 25 pages of coments before I posted my first here.

So again, your point is?

Ciaran0

N64 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0508/breaking32.html

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2007/07/31/uk-britain-cannabis-idUKL3173105820070731

http://www.abc.net.au/sa/stories/s923596.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2419713.stm

The only people I know who smoke weed are unemployed. I know nobody in a highly professional career that smokes weed daily.

I do know lots of highly professional people who smoke. I also know people working in blue collar jobs who smoke it. I also know some self employed people who smoke it. Just because all the people you know who smoke it are deadbeats, doesn't mean you should assume the same of everyone else.

Also, all of those links just lead to newspaper articles that are all written from an anti-cannabis viewpoint. The internet's plenty big, if you look a little harder you'll find lots of unbiased, actual research on the effects of cannabis out there

N64

Ciaran0 wrote: »

I do know lots of highly professional people who smoke. I also know people working in blue collar jobs who smoke it. I also know some self employed people who smoke it. Just because all the people you know who smoke it are deadbeats, doesn't mean you should assume the same of everyone else.

Also, all of those links just lead to newspaper articles that are all written from an anti-cannabis viewpoint. The internet's plenty big, if you look a little harder you'll find lots of unbiased, actual research on the effects of cannabis out there

Maybe the articles are but scientific evidence does not lie. I think that the majority of weed smokers are ignoring the facts/bending the truth to suit their agenda.

Ciaran0

N64 wrote: »

Maybe the articles are but scientific evidence does not lie. I think that the majority of weed smokers are ignoring the facts/bending the truth to suit their agenda.

That is completely true. It's already been established here that if one were to thoroughly read through the scientific evidence regarding the matter one would come to the conclusion that cannabis should be legalised, or at least decriminalised. The fact of the matter is that the health risks associated with using cannabis are trivial. The greatest danger is the carcinogens taken in from smoking, but smoking isn't the only way of using cannabis. When vaping or ingesting weed, the health risks are almost nil.

And your comment that smokers are bending the truth to suit their agendas is preposterous. You know there are non smokers who believe that weed should be legalised. It isn't just smokers pushing for law reform so they can get high uninhibited.

Jackmcg

crazy cabbage wrote: »

You clearly dont know anything about psychological addiction.

I know enough to admit that im psychologically addicted. granted its probably not near the addiction levels of herion, but that brings me back to the point- just because its not as dangerous as other drugs doesn't mean we should legalize it!

crazy cabbage wrote: »

Is it not better to legilise so that these people whould have to go through regulated channels where that can and will be refused it, than someone drugdealer of the streets who doesn't give a ****

Think about it, if theyre refused from those who regulate it, theyll just go straight back to the drugdealers on the streets who dont give a ****

crazy cabbage wrote: »

Lets pretend that it is legal. GIve me one good reason based in fact that it should become illegal.

I'll give you a few obvious ones from personal experience- it is a mind altering substance that can turn peoples brains to mush, can make people dependent on a substance, alter personalities, can affect peoples memory.. and my personal opinion again- I think us Irish would just abuse it if it became openly available in shops/cafes/bars etc.

Daninho

Jackmcg wrote: »

I'll give you a few obvious ones from personal experience- it is a mind altering substance that can turn peoples brains to mush, can make people dependent on a substance, alter personalities, can affect peoples memory.. and my personal opinion again- I think us Irish would just abuse it if it became openly available in shops/cafes/bars etc.

So if you really believe in that, would you vote to make consumption and sale of alcohol illegal if given the opportunity, given that alcohol comes with all those effects and many more including the aggression, volatility and the proven health risks and cost to the economy? If you say yes then fair play. If you say no that makes you a hypocrite, alongside many of those who argue against cannabis consumption, be they politicians, doctors, gardai or just your average Joe who enjoys a few pints now and again.

The pros and cons of legalising cannabis have been laid out in the many pages of this thread and you could argue them forever, the real point here is the hypocrisy contained in the argument against it when it presents MUCH LESS dangers than many of the things that people can freely do today.

Jackmcg

Daninho wrote: »

So if you really believe in that, would you vote to make consumption and sale of alcohol illegal if given the opportunity, given that alcohol comes with all those effects and many more including the aggression, volatility and the proven health risks and cost to the economy? If you say yes then fair play. If you say no that makes you a hypocrite, alongside many of those who argue against cannabis consumption, be they politicians, doctors, gardai or just your average Joe who enjoys a few pints now and again.

please, please, PLEASE! can we stop comparing weed to alcohol/ other drugs?? Just because weed is less dangerous/addictive than other substances, doesn't mean it should automatically be legalized.

Obviously alcohol should be illegal, but thats unrealistic and a completely different argument so lets not start that up.

Gbear

N64 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0508/breaking32.html

Cannabis shouldn't be smoked by teenagers. Nobody is suggesting that.
It also shouldn't be smoked by people with tendencies towards mental disorder. A person with no legs shouldn't try ice skating.

N64 wrote: »

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2007/07/31/uk-britain-cannabis-idUKL3173105820070731

N64 wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2419713.stm

N64 wrote: »

http://www.abc.net.au/sa/stories/s923596.htm

Simply put, the stories in those reports are bollocks.
The first two reference the same report from the British Lung foundation who vastly overreached the findings of several studies with small sample sizes in order to generate publicity. When they were asked to reference their claims they declined.
The third is an interview with a "Naturopath" or what you might call a bull****-peddler.

There is no positive causal link between cannabis and lung cancer.
A large study performed at UCLA (article referencing it here) found that to be the case.

That's not even mentioning that you don't need to smoke it to consume it.

And if it did harm (which it doesn't) that still isn't reason enough for it to be illegal, otherwise smoking and alcohol would be too.

Daninho

I didn't say alcohol should be illegal nor do I think it should be, although if the existing legislation regarding the sale of alcohol were enforced it would solve the problems surrounding it to some small degree. It's ok to say stop comparing them because you don't want to hear it but for those who don't want a drink, don't smoke cigarettes but are partial to cannabis this represents nothing less than discrimination. Basically you're saying don't introduce cannabis because we have enough, more serious problems but at the same time you maintain that to tackle the greater problems are unrealistic and therefore we'll just let them slip. This country is riddled with many, many bigger issues than the threat that cannabis carries, you can't just say 'we'll stop it here but leave everything else as it is' as a reasonable argument. Albeit that is the policy of the government and many ore of the uneducated but as we well know they are hardly a beacon for right or reason.

Dr. Greenthumb

N64 wrote: »

The only people I know who smoke weed are unemployed. I know nobody in a highly professional career that smokes weed daily.

I'd say that more of an issue with the people you hang around with than weed as most of my friends smoke daily and we all have good paying, respectable jobs.

I have smoked weed for a long time and it would be brilliant to be able buy it legally however I've been to Amsterdam and the tourism benefit from weed wouldn't be something I'd look forward to seeing in Ireland as it generally doesn't attract the most respectable crowd (ie. zombies walking around the streets etc.). Even the Dutch are getting sick of their cannabis tourism.

Anyway the whole legalize weed brigade is going the wrong way about it IMO. There are far more benefits to be reaped from the cannabis plant than just that of revenue and whatever else from smoking it. It is a very versatile plant and can be used in a wide range of products as well as being extremely environmentally friendly and it is a renewable crop.

I would prefer to see some group try and get the farming of sterilized cannabis legalized for use in regular day to day products instead of constantly trying to get it legalized because it's not addictive, never killed anyone etc.

Sorry if this is a bit long winded and not punctuated correctly but I'm stoned.

Oranage2

Daninho wrote: »

What legal highs? If you are referring to the products that used to be sold from head shops they were about the most dangerous thing a person could buy as they weren't tested at all so that is a moot point really. Furthermore, they were never sold or classified as legal highs as they were never expressly intended or 'legalised' for the purpose of getting high on. You'll be aware that they have been shut down now for that reason and that is absolutely a good thing. As has been mentioned previously in this thread the is a concern now about the dangers arising from various things being added to herbal cannabis now to bump the weight up, which only serves as another reason to regulate the market by legalising it.

I'll accept your word that you have tried cannabis and other 'harder' drugs in moderation. Equally I have tried many, and not with so much moderation yet I'll still argue the case for cannabis as I have not yet seen one logical reason as to why it should be illegal. You mention opening of the market to younger people but if you read the report that has been laid out in the case of Portugal you'll see that argument holds no water either.

again what happens in Portugal doesn't mean it will happen here. My point about the head shop drugs is that a lot of people tried it that wouldn't have if it wasn't so easily available and I've no doubt legalizing cannabis will have the same effect.

If cannabis was legal we'd have a nation of pot heads and i don't want to see that.

Chuck Stone

Oranage2 wrote: »

If cannabis was legal we'd have a nation of pot heads and i don't want to see that.

Because Accident and Emergency would be quiet at the weekend and the pizza parlours and late night shops would be booming?

Sounds grand.

Jackmcg

Daninho wrote: »

I didn't say alcohol should be illegal nor do I think it should be, although if the existing legislation regarding the sale of alcohol were enforced it would solve the problems surrounding it to some small degree. It's ok to say stop comparing them because you don't want to hear it but for those who don't want a drink, don't smoke cigarettes but are partial to cannabis this represents nothing less than discrimination. Basically you're saying don't introduce cannabis because we have enough, more serious problems but at the same time you maintain that to tackle the greater problems are unrealistic and therefore we'll just let them slip. This country is riddled with many, many bigger issues than the threat that cannabis carries, you can't just say 'we'll stop it here but leave everything else as it is' as a reasonable argument. Albeit that is the policy of the government and many ore of the uneducated but as we well know they are hardly a beacon for right or reason.

You're right man, unfortunately that is what I'm saying. But Im just being realistic.
The government wont legalize cannabis in our society as it will just cause more problems than letting cannabis remain illegal
The government wont make cigs and alcohol illegal because there is too much money being made behind these products right now.

Ciaran0

Oranage2 wrote: »

If cannabis was legal we'd have a nation of pot heads and i don't want to see that.

Why is it that you think that we'd have a nation of pot heads if it was legal? Surely the trend would follow that of Portugal and the Netherlands where there are actually less drug users?

Also, weed is currently available to anyone who wants it as it is, yet we don't have a nation of pot heads. Why would that change?

Jackmcg

Ciaran0 wrote: »

Also, weed is currently available to anyone who wants it as it is, yet we don't have a nation of pot heads. Why would that change?

Just look at the head shops. The drugs were already around but the head shops pushed them in peoples faces and made them extremely easy to obtain at lower prices.
I reckon coffee shops/weed off licenses/whatever would have the same effect

.... and on that point- if weed is already available to those who want it, then why are you pushing for legalization?

Daninho

Oranage2 wrote: »

again what happens in Portugal doesn't mean it will happen here. My point about the head shop drugs is that a lot of people tried it that wouldn't have if it wasn't so easily available and I've no doubt legalizing cannabis will have the same effect.

If cannabis was legal we'd have a nation of pot heads and i don't want to see that.

You are already in a country that has a fair percentage of 'pot heads'. They walk past you every day, serve you in the shops, drive your taxis, fix your teeth...they may be even coming round your house for tea and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference if they didn't want you to know.

A side-effect of cannabis consumption is not to grow a horn out of your head so that everybody knows. You are misguided in thinking that legalising cannabis will grind the country to a halt because everybody is stoned.

You rightly say that what happened in Portugal mightn't necessarily happen here, but by the same token we could achieve even better results, which would please you surely? We can't tell that as it's merely hypothetical to guess.

As for the head shops, I can't say that people didn't try it because it was accessible because I don't know but you equally can't say with any certainty that it would drive up the numbers of cannabis smokers. Given that cannabis isn't addictive and that anybody who wants to try it already do so fairly easily I really don't see legalising it driving the figures up at all tbh.

What the head shop issue did show up though was how dangerous it is to have untested and unregulated substances flowing around when the demand is there for them. If the safer option of a legal cannabis shop was next door to it (at a fair price) I doubt the head shop would have had much business at all.

DjDoody

Jackmcg wrote: »

please, please, PLEASE! can we stop comparing weed to alcohol/ other drugs?? Just because weed is less dangerous/addictive than other substances, doesn't mean it should automatically be legalized.

Obviously alcohol should be illegal, but thats unrealistic and a completely different argument so lets not start that up.

I think your missing the point,no substance should be illegal to consume from weed and alcohol to narcotics like heroin,it should be a personal choice.

Ciaran0

Jackmcg wrote: »

Just look at the head shops. The drugs were already around but the head shops pushed them in peoples faces and made them extremely easy to obtain at lower prices.
I reckon coffee shops/weed off licenses/whatever would have the same effect

Head shops didn't push drugs into peoples faces. It's not like they advertised on the telly! Just because you reckon something might happen doesn't mean it will. If you're going to make assumptions you should base them in fact and logic. The facts are that drug usage in Portugal dropped when drugs were decriminalised. Now I know correlation doesn't imply causality but at least I'm going on something here.

.... and on that point- if weed is already available to those who want it, then why are you pushing for legalization?

People shouldn't be criminalised for drug habits. Criminals should be the ones taking up Gardai time. Legalising cannabis would take business out of the hands of criminals and create a bit of employment and money for the state in taxes. It's all been thoroughly covered already though!

LH Pathe

..I'm ourra teh head. 4 joints, I only had! 3 earlier n 2 just there..

legalize, this

old hippy

N64 wrote: »

why would anybody support such a thing? The vast majority of people who smoke weed that I know are wasters. Oh and ming is a disgrace to Irish politics. I would like to voice my true opinion on him but I won't since I probably would get a infraction.

Well, there's a saying that birds of a feather...

Used to smoke it but gave up because I find the stuff bit too strong for me these days. Sometimes I'm in favour of complete decrim. of all drugs but then I've experienced and seen what some of the substances out there can do. That said, I'm in favour of cannabis being legalised - all this bs about gateway drugs and people getting whacked out of it all the time if it becomes legal - sure they would have done that anyway. Some people get hooked on alcohol and some on other drugs, that's life.

As for wasters? I know dentists, police, lawyers and journalists who smoke weed - so go figure.

Snake Pliisken

I'm sick of actually debating this, it's like talking to a brick wall. The anti-legalization side keep reviving dead, debunked points; the newest of which is saying that the Netherlands is sick of the tourism associated with cannabis, that they want to stop foreigners from using the coffeeshops to quell drug tourism...

This isn't true, the real reason for this has been bandied around this thread many, many times but busybodies decide to come in and regurgitate already struck-down points that restart the whole debate. Every single argument by the anti-legalization side has been debunked only to be boringly revived by some new crusader.

The neighbour nations to the Netherlands have pressured the dutch to stop allowing their people to purchase cannabis in the Netherlands because they bring it back home across the border with them, where the laws and official attitudes toward cannabis are quite different.

Amsterdam's mayor came out against the ban, saying that over 70% of tourism that comes to the city is there to smoke- that's alot of money to pass up when you consider the museums, hotels and restaurants losing business. Just because some eejit can't handle how some of their citizens enjoy a pastime.

ScumLord

Dr. Greenthumb wrote: »

I have smoked weed for a long time and it would be brilliant to be able buy it legally however I've been to Amsterdam and the tourism benefit from weed wouldn't be something I'd look forward to seeing in Ireland as it generally doesn't attract the most respectable crowd (ie. zombies walking around the streets etc.). Even the Dutch are getting sick of their cannabis tourism.

I don't know about that, Amsterdam gets a lot of tourists and it goes beyond just stoners, you have people that go to see one of Europes most unique cities (standard tourist) but Amsterdam also has a lot of exhibitions and trade shows. That means the town is full of business people.

Go to Rotterdam and you have nothing like Amsterdam so it's not just down to the legality of weed, Amsterdam has built a reputation for itself that attracts millions of people to the city to let lose. even if your not into drugs Amsterdam will encourage you to be more relaxed and have fun.

If Ireland legalised weed I think we'd see the smoke tourists confined to Temple bar in Dublin and Galway along the same lines as current booze holiday makers. Most those kind of tourists don't make it out of the cities.

Anyway the whole legalize weed brigade is going the wrong way about it IMO. There are far more benefits to be reaped from the cannabis plant than just that of revenue and whatever else from smoking it. It is a very versatile plant and can be used in a wide range of products as well as being extremely environmentally friendly and it is a renewable crop.

I actually think we'll be forced to start using hemp again. Synthetic oil based products where used to replace hemp and oil is getting too expensive.

There's billions in hemp products just waiting there to be exploited, someone will. If we could just legalise full on hemp use before everyone else we could secure a chunk of the market for Ireland.

Jackmcg wrote: »

Just look at the head shops. The drugs were already around but the head shops pushed them in peoples faces and made them extremely easy to obtain at lower prices.

The drugs in the headshop where not really around before the headshops became popular. The first thing the headshops did was exploit the loophole regarding mushrooms then they found all these other products that no one had heard of to sell as well as mushrooms. No body had heard of most of them, let alone tried them before they stepped into a headshop.

alleyjoe

ya sure

Clanket

Jackmcg wrote: »

.... and on that point- if weed is already available to those who want it, then why are you pushing for legalization?

There's two main reasons:

1. To stop people who are not criminals being criminalised. How would you like it if some harmless past-time of yours was suddenly deemed to be illegal and you were regarded as a criminal for doing it?When in fact, it's harming nobody?
2. If it was legal people who like a smoke would no longer have to deal with shady characters, which a lot have to at the moment.

Does anyone know if any test cases have ever gone to the High or Supreme court by people stating they are being discriminated against for being prosecuted for smoking weed. It's comparable to alcohol and yet alcohol is legal? Surely there's an angle there.

Leftist

I thought holland was bringing in a rule last year whereby you had to have some registration to buy weed and that registaration was only available to permanent residents?

It's a good idea. Amsterdam's a nice city but it's spoiled. more because of the perverts though.

As for that horrendous post about why legalise weed if you can buy it illegally.

Would you prefer to buy Alcohol, which is approved for sale after testing, from a licenced seller at fixed hours, or buy it illegally from someone consistantly involved in crime?

Clanket

They are indeed. It's been rolled out country wide in 2013.

I'd disagree that Amsetrdam is spoiled. It's a cracking city. The perverts tend to stay around the Red Light so just avoid it (although it's not that bad).

Leftist

Clanket wrote: »

They are indeed. It's been rolled out country wide in 2013.

I'd disagree that Amsetrdam is spoiled. It's a cracking city. The perverts tend to stay around the Red Light so just avoid it (although it's not that bad).

that is true enough aswel.

Flicked back a few page and seen comments regarding cannabis as a reason for anti-social behaviour on our streets.

Imo we'll never really get to discuss the topic in any meaningful way when there are people like that still regurgitating propoganda from decades ago.

It's absolutely laughable to think that someone in this day and age really things anyone in a healthy psychological condition would cause any physical damage to anything or anyone due to the effects of weed.

ScumLord

Leftist wrote: »

I thought holland was bringing in a rule last year whereby you had to have some registration to buy weed and that registaration was only available to permanent residents?

Ya, there's a coalition that includes two Christian parties. Christians groups have always been at the forefront of the fight against drugs. It was Christian parties that brought about prohibition in America.

The move is basically down to Religious fundies wanting to impose they're value system on everyone else and pressure from other countries.

Everyone can now travel to the Basque region of Spain to get the same thing as Amsterdam. It will be interesting to see how tourism is affected. I will have no reason to go back if there's no cannabis on offer. I've been there plenty of times, seen all there is to see in the city at this stage.

Leftist

ScumLord wrote: »

Ya, there's a coalition that includes two Christian parties. Christians groups have always been at the forefront of the fight against drugs. It was Christian parties that brought about prohibition in America.

The move is basically down to Religious fundies wanting to impose they're value system on everyone else and pressure from other countries.

Everyone can now travel to the Basque region of Spain to get the same thing as Amsterdam. It will be interesting to see how tourism is affected. I will have no reason to go back if there's no cannabis on offer. I've been there plenty of times, seen all there is to see in the city at this stage.

disgraceful that christians or any religious group can restrict other people's lives and sad that holland of all places would allow that.

Clanket

ScumLord wrote: »

Everyone can now travel to the Basque region of Spain to get the same thing as Amsterdam.

What's the story, was it legalised over there? Including Barcelona?