Boardsies marathon plan by debate

macinalli

Up to now my training had been aimed at middle distance (training runs up to 12 miles, fartlek & tempo run each week, a few track sessions) but this is the first week of marathon training proper. I've 15 weeks til race day (early October) my racing plan had been to pick up a half marathon in August with nothing else scheduled. Is it worth throwing in a couple of other races to keep things fresh?

pgmcpq

This is a great thread. I have only just caught up with reading it so fogive me if I mess things up a bit by asking a few questions from earlier:

I have read about a theory that marathon training periodization works best with the emphasis on speed in the first phase rather than the last phase. This is pretty much how I visualized the 10k program leading into the marathon specific training. So given this model would you continue V02 work through the marathon specific training ?

Going back to the V02 dicussion At what level ( on the 2.45 - 3.30 scale) is V02 work a benefit ? Last time around with P&D I substituted tempo runs for the V02 sessions in part because I suspected I (a 3.15 finisher) would get more benefit from the tempo run.

TBF: I'm a regular lurker on your blog. Glad to have the chance to ask a few questions about the Vienna plan. How was the HR for the evaluation run arrived at ? Where would that be on your HR range. Your max is 190 so 161 is 84% which looks like LT/tempo range ?

What sort of mileage where you running in the base phase - did you drop total mileage in later phases ? (Yes, I should probably just go re read your blog!). The emphasis on hills. Was that an essential part of the plan or just tailored to where you usually run ?

Ecoli: I am just re reading your sub3 mentoring thread from DCM2010. There is some similarity with the "Vienna Plan" in that while you did not (I think - I have not yet re read the full thread) explicitly divide your plan into phases it seems to begin with a lot of relatively short easy running. Also: (maybe a bit OT) looking back would you change anything in the plan based on the experience ?


I am 19 weeks away from my autumn marathon, coming off 10k training and looking at base building options so that probably why my questions are focused on base building and periodization. Sorry if the questions are a bit vague ... time is a struggle, but I want to make sure this thread stays on the first few pages.

Clearlier

I immediately think of two types of races. The first are where you go all out to get the best time that you possibly can and the second are training races where you use a race to get a tempo or marathon pace run done.

I think that the latter should be done reasonably frequently, as often as weekly if there's a summer series that you can use for your tempo runs for example. They give you a chance to experiment with different approaches to race day, done properly you learn how to exercise self-control and they give you a little bit of feedback about how you're training is progressing - control is critical though. If you can't stop yourself from racing all out then these type of races aren't for you and I'd be concerned about whether you could control your pace in a marathon.

I think that you should also include some all out races in the lead up to your target marathon too. The number of races and the distance of these is dependent upon your mileage though. If you're running 35mpw then an all out half is going to take too much out of you. If you're running 100mpw+ then it shouldn't cause you too much difficulty. I know only one person who raced a 20 miler and did well in a marathon. He's young, an excellent duathlete and generally unbreakable though. That said I don't know any really high mileage guys who've raced a 20. The guys who have suffered have been in the 70-80mpw range.

ecoli

pgmcpq wrote: »

This is a great thread. I have only just caught up with reading it so fogive me if I mess things up a bit by asking a few questions from earlier:

I have read about a theory that marathon training periodization works best with the emphasis on speed in the first phase rather than the last phase. This is pretty much how I visualized the 10k program leading into the marathon specific training. So given this model would you continue V02 work through the marathon specific training ?

Going back to the V02 dicussion At what level ( on the 2.45 - 3.30 scale) is V02 work a benefit ? Last time around with P&D I substituted tempo runs for the V02 sessions in part because I suspected I (a 3.15 finisher) would get more benefit from the tempo run.

I think there was a bit of deliberation on this. Personally I am off the belief that in the early stages 10k paced work as opposed to Vo2 max work (3k-5k) to allow the sufficient volume in workouts to build strength for marathon training without compromising the rest of the weeks training.
I would also say that Vo2 work should not be conducted in the last two months of marathon training. Normally here I would be more inclined to do more marathon specific sessions.
Recently quoted tergat in a thread regarding this as I found was one of the best posts to help back up my approach

tergat wrote: »

VO2 max reps (Speedwork) are unnecessary and often detrimental in the last 8 weeks of training prior to a marathon. The reason is simple - you do NOT want to elevate anaerobic capacity during this time frame. VO2 max reps, not only tend to raise maximum oxygen consumption, but they elevate fuel burning rate of sugar (glucose and glycogen) and raise anaerobic capacity. The result is reduced ability to hold a good race-pace after about 90 minutes of running. People who do too many VO2 max reps slow down drastically in the last 10-15km of a marathon race!

If you want quicker running, go for strides (no more than 30 seconds per rep) and with sufficient recovery running between each so that no residual fatigue carries over from one rep to the next. This would be a good workout to improve neural coordination. It would improve running economy, too.

Otherwise, the fastest extended rep you need to run is CV pace (a pace you can run in a 40-45 minute race or add 8-12 secs per km to your CURRENT 5km pace per km).

Do plenty of Marathon and Half-Marathon paced training during Big Workouts (long runs with quality included) and you'll improve marathon performance enormously!

Tergat

ecoli

pgmcpq wrote: »

Ecoli: I am just re reading your sub3 mentoring thread from DCM2010. There is some similarity with the "Vienna Plan" in that while you did not (I think - I have not yet re read the full thread) explicitly divide your plan into phases it seems to begin with a lot of relatively short easy running. Also: (maybe a bit OT) looking back would you change anything in the plan based on the experience ?

The aim at the start of the training was to build a base to a sufficient level to allow the athletes to conduct the mileage of the program. Some were coming from as low as 30 miles a week so the idea was to slowly build this mileage over the first few weeks.

I think this while although was the right approach I think it should be carried out before coming into the plan to ensure that the athlete gets to their goal. I think this is one of the reasons while although there was PBs (especially at the shorter distances and one or two at the marathon) I think this was the sole reason athletes didn reach their sub 3 target.

The change of coming into the plan is one aspect I have changed in marathon coaching since, the other being the inclusion of more 10k paced sessions and shorter hills in the earlier stages of training. I have seen a greater success since then making these changes as the focus last year was pretty much solely on HMP-MP work with very little quicker.

I think the similarities between the plan was down to the philosophies of the coaching which I think both are quite heavily based in Lydiards teachings.

ecoli

Re: Racing

I think in the early stages of training I would encourage racing over shorter distances (5m/10k) and as Clearier said there is nothing wrong with a bit of all out racing. Racing (as I am conitinually told by my own coach who is a marathon runner himself) brings you on as an athlete. There is no reason why in the first 10 weeks of a plan you can't throw in a race every now and then. I would only exceed the distance once though with a target half along the way usually about 8 weeks out from your marathon. The reason why I would only advise one is in terms of recovery and few down days before the race you cant afford to to do this too often without compromising training.

Regarding using races as Training runs I wouldnt encourage this as mentally it is very difficult to training through a week at normal intensities if you are focusing on a race at the weekend. Most of us want to do our best and dont like to see bad results beside our names in race results its part of a runners nature. The way I see it if you want to race race but if you want to take it as a training run then do just that why waste money on entering a race to get a training run.

Again this is personal thinking and people are different in their approach to this. Some people would find it easier to hit their MP in a race surrounded by people or use it as training for controlling yourself in a race enviroment in prep for your race not to go off too fast. This can be a great mental boost though I am of the other way of thought that training should be as mentally hard as possible (not wearing race flats in MP training runs etc) so that come race day you recieve all the mental boosts you can get when arriving on the start line. BY doing these training runs outside a race it can make them mentally harder as well (personally I always find running with people easier and end up moving alot quicker on training run with less effort than I do on my own)

TFBubendorfer

pgmcpq wrote: »

TBF: I'm a regular lurker on your blog. Glad to have the chance to ask a few questions about the Vienna plan. How was the HR for the evaluation run arrived at ? Where would that be on your HR range. Your max is 190 so 161 is 84% which looks like LT/tempo range ?

My coach generally sets the target HR for the evaluation run at maxHR - 30. However, he stated a few times that it's not that important exactly what HR you choose, as long as you pick the same HR each time. You need to be able to compare one workout to the next one, therefore you must keep it consistent. It may have worked just as well with a HR of 155 or maybe even 165. But in the coach's experience max - 30 always works well, so why change it?

84% HR might be at the lower end of the tempo run spectrum (though everyone seems to have a different definition of a tempo run), but I always find the evaluation a rather mellow workout. I do have to work to hold the HR at 161 for 4 miles, but not particularly hard.

To make this more relevant to this thread (even if the present talk is about preparation races, sorry), I do find it very useful to have some sort of evaluation workout on a regular basis. I find the feedback very helpful (at the very least it tells me I'm running better than 2 or 4 weeks ago, which always helps morale).

TFBubendorfer

ecoli wrote: »

Re: Racing

I think in the early stages of training I would encourage racing over shorter distances (5m/10k) and as Clearier said there is nothing wrong with a bit of all out racing. Racing (as I am conitinually told by my own coach who is a marathon runner himself) brings you on as an athlete.

That's interesting; I used to be of the same opinion but my coach was dead against racing early in the training. That was a standard rule of his (as is generally the case in Lydiard training).

He even stopped me from racing later on because he identified me as someone who sharpens very quickly and did not want me to peak before the goal race. I only raced once before my goal marathon, but someone who takes longer to sharpens would have raced more often.

ecoli

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

That's interesting; I used to be of the same opinion but my coach was dead against racing early in the training. That was a standard rule of his (as is generally the case in Lydiard training).

He even stopped me from racing later on because he identified me as someone who sharpens very quickly and did not want me to peak before the goal race. I only raced once before my goal marathon, but someone who takes longer to sharpens would have raced more often.

I used to be of a similar attitude as i felt that taper was needed to run quicker times. Over the last year I have found however that you can train through while still changing training around to produce quicker times in races as long as the emphasis of the training is right. If you can train through a race and maintain the volume throughout the week you can manage to avoid peaking as long as the training is progressive.

I have noticed this in my own training this year coming off my base I began to race every second week for 6-8 weeks. I was still in heavy training phase yet managed to PB in races from 4 mile - 10k times. Admittedly this was not in marathon training But I found that the races were for me another form of sessions. They also encouraged me not to fall into a comfort zone as can be the case

I agree that this is not exactly Lydiard but I have found that while I agree with alot of his general principles and approachs the one thing my own coach has made me realise is the benefits of racing in overall performance and can me used as a tool rather than just an end goal.

I do agree with you later on though in the last 8 weeks I would not really encourage racing. I think this could be an American training method influence though as many collegiate programs focus on racing intensively early season and as they progress become more selectively late season when they are aiming for peak and chasing times

T runner

ecoli wrote: »

I think here is a case where you must look at the athletes background. You are coming from high mileage base that others wont have come from which is why you are recieve better benefits from this higher intensity work.

Becuase it is only 400 metres it is not that high intensity and is quite an easy session. For someone with lower mileage and average speed id recommend 300s.

The idea is to progress rythm and form without overdeveloping the anaerobic systems. During my session i found that the last 100metres of the last 2 reps were challenging, overall the session was easily doable.

Someone without such an aerobic base wont recieve the same benefit as they will put their body under too much stress inhibiting recovery and compromise training more so throughout the week unless they have spent a long time building a high mileage base (as you did with your 80-90 mile weeks). While you can water down the sessions as you have suggested you create the problem that you are sacrificing volume as a result which is important withing marathon training.

This is not a stressful session at all. Volume can thus be maintained easily. This session would be done after the base pace and before the marathon specific phase. It would be similar to Daniels reps phase for elite runners but with a more useful pace for sub elites to gain form.

The form has the purpose of helping the marathoner run his marathon specific work faster and more economically.

Volume is important in marathoning not least because a very high volume has a positive effect on running economy. These rythm sessions in effect allow the lower mileage marathoners to gain running economy. The correct starting amount of reps and rep lenght should be tailored for the individual runner.

Again you could add a quality phase but this would drag out a training plan longer as yiou would have to bridge the quality with the Marathon which is why 10k is advised as it becomes a natural progression.

This phase would bridge base and marathon. A second steady state/tempo type session would get teh body used to the continuous running necessary for a successful marathon phase and this would be run with good form from the 5k session allowing the runer to train faster.

The odd 5k session should be done but in general i would stick more to 10k based sessions for the quicker spectrum

You still have the problem of poor running form. 10k work is not fast enough to iron these out and the slower/lower mileage a runner is on the more likely an issue that his running form is likely to be.

VO2 max reps(roughly 5k pace), not only tend to raise maximum oxygen consumption, but they elevate fuel burning rate of sugar (glucose and glycogen) and raise anaerobic capacity. The result is reduced ability to hold a good race-pace after about 90 minutes of running. People who do too many VO2 max reps slow down drastically in the last 10-15km of a marathon race. 5k pace session do have their place in training but during a marathon plan i would not recommend it

But because the reps are 400s and 300s VO2 max will only be reached in significant periods in the last rep or 2. The main gains here will not be anaeorbic or VO2 max developement but in running economy which will help the athlete train faster in his marathon specific phase and thus race faster.

As these would not be done within at least 10 weeks of race day (except perhaps a maintanance session or two), any small anaerobic development would not be a limiting factor for marathon specific training.

Again i think you must balance volume with quality. This worked for you because of your higher mileage background over last few years.

Honestly, my mileage before these sessions was only 50-80 kpw although built up over a few months.

I would also suggest you may be a little quicker in a 5k than the pace you are carrying out in sessions and will prob suprise yourself

Honestly, my recent 5k times are slighly slower than these reps, although i belive under similar conditions they would be bang on.


The main point i am making i think is that running economy is a bigger problem for mid mileage athletes than high mileage athletes, and i reckon that this is not addressed in many schedules.

ecoli

T runner wrote: »

The main point i am making i think is that running economy is a bigger problem for mid mileage athletes than high mileage athletes, and i reckon that this is not addressed in many schedules.

I would agree to you on this point but I think we come at the same problem from different angles and this is more a Daniels v Lydiard argument rather than ignoring an aspect of a marathon plan. While I would argue the volume of your Vo2max sessions interpretation of how stressful that would be (havent read Daniels in a while but from what i remember his R paced work was very little volume in relation to overall weekly mileage)

Yes alot of schedules tell you X miles on Y day etc and often ignore things such as form development and deficency. For the development of running form however the early stage hill work is used where you would have a Vo2 Max sessions as well as regular drills. With these two aspects you are dealing with that problem among many training schedules

I know Lydiard preaches hill circuits to work on form and approaches the problem from a different angle. Raighne would be the man to ask about this as he is alot more knowledgeable about the Lydiard training than me (my approach is based in his theory but not independently). Here is also a link taht will give you some background:

http://www.fitnesssports.com/lyd_clinic_guide/Arthur%20Lydiard.pdf

TFBubendorfer

pgmcpq wrote: »

What sort of mileage where you running in the base phase - did you drop total mileage in later phases ? (Yes, I should probably just go re read your blog!). The emphasis on hills. Was that an essential part of the plan or just tailored to where you usually run ?

Sorry, I forgot about this and just remembered when ecoli started talking about mileage.

The coach never mentioned any specific mileage target, but in the early weeks he kept telling me to run more. Those emails stopped once I reached about 80 mpw. I did this fairly consistently, with one high week of 86 and the other weeks in the low 80s.

After the base phase, this dropped by about 10%. Again, there were no strict orders but I was told to run as much as I could while still being able to recover fully. The constant evaluation workouts would have told him soon enough if I was overdoing things (incidentally, this seems to be happening right now).

The hills were just part of my usual run routes, it's hard to find flat miles here in rural Kerry (believe me, I had major troubles finding a flat road for the evaluations), but then again, the more hills the better, really.

Clearlier

I had to finish my post rather quickly last night so I didn't take the time to talk about timing of races. In my case I certainly don't believe in all out racing in the early mileage building phase of marathon training (in the classic Lydiardite periodisation fashion) I see it as being a useful tool to help peaking and thus would tend to use it towards the end of marathon training with the max distances being determined by mileage volume. It's interesting to hear TBF's account of fast peaking - wondering if it indicates a relatively greater talent for shorter distances?

Interesting comments from ecoli about training runs. I'd argue that the mental boosts that you talk about are actually triggers that help you focus and while a perfectly valid way of implementing those triggers it is not the only way to do it. Thus it is possible to use races as quality training runs provided that you still have a way of telling yourself to switch on for target races compared to training races. It's worth mentioning that I make extensive use of my HRM so it is relatively straightforward to spot when adrenaline is getting the better of me in a race. It's also worth noting that living in Bournemouth I have access to free parkruns, minimal cost 3.5mile midweek summer races and regular Sunday races that seem to be a lot cheaper than in Ireland (£6 - £13 seems to be the general range). If there was a 10k midweek series I'd use it for tempo runs (as it happens family means that I limit myself to the Sunday runs). The flip side of that of course is that if you never do any faster running on your own you likely won't develop very good pace judgment which could easily be a factor in going too fast at the start of a marathon. So while I did say that you could run a controlled race every week I would also suggest taking care to include at least some marathon paced segments in training runs.

TFB - I'm curious as to how you measured your MaxHR and particularly whether it was done in training or in a race as I've noticed (as have plenty of others) a significant difference between my HR in races compared to training.

TFBubendorfer

Clearlier wrote: »

It's interesting to hear TBF's account of fast peaking - wondering if it indicates a relatively greater talent for shorter distances?

That would be a tad unfortunate because my heart is firmly set on marathons (and longer). I do race shorter distances, but never as my goal race.

TFB - I'm curious as to how you measured your MaxHR and particularly whether it was done in training or in a race as I've noticed (as have plenty of others) a significant difference between my HR in races compared to training.

I never did a formal test. At the end of 5k races, especially in Killarney National Park with its uphill finish, I tend to get to about 190 when I really push all out, so we called that my maxHR.

The HR in racing is always higher than in training because of the adrenaline, I think. It won't affect your maxHR, though.

ecoli

Clearlier wrote: »

I had to finish my post rather quickly last night so I didn't take the time to talk about timing of races. In my case I certainly don't believe in all out racing in the early mileage building phase of marathon training (in the classic Lydiardite periodisation fashion) I see it as being a useful tool to help peaking and thus would tend to use it towards the end of marathon training with the max distances being determined by mileage volume. It's interesting to hear TBF's account of fast peaking - wondering if it indicates a relatively greater talent for shorter distances?

Interesting comments from ecoli about training runs. I'd argue that the mental boosts that you talk about are actually triggers that help you focus and while a perfectly valid way of implementing those triggers it is not the only way to do it. Thus it is possible to use races as quality training runs provided that you still have a way of telling yourself to switch on for target races compared to training races. It's worth mentioning that I make extensive use of my HRM so it is relatively straightforward to spot when adrenaline is getting the better of me in a race. It's also worth noting that living in Bournemouth I have access to free parkruns, minimal cost 3.5mile midweek summer races and regular Sunday races that seem to be a lot cheaper than in Ireland (£6 - £13 seems to be the general range). If there was a 10k midweek series I'd use it for tempo runs (as it happens family means that I limit myself to the Sunday runs). The flip side of that of course is that if you never do any faster running on your own you likely won't develop very good pace judgment which could easily be a factor in going too fast at the start of a marathon. So while I did say that you could run a controlled race every week I would also suggest taking care to include at least some marathon paced segments in training runs.

When I say all out racing I am talking hard effort in the race but you are not tapering off for these races but rather substituting of your sessions. This way you are combating the effects of peaking as you are still in heavy base workload so you are not going into these races fully fresh

Again as I said regarding the training race approach this is more so my take on this. Here I do not feel there is a right or wrong way to do it as I think there are positive mental and physical benefits from both approaches. I think this one comes down to the preference of the athlete and their coach

woodchopper

ecoli wrote: »

Re: Racing

This can be a great mental boost though I am of the other way of thought that training should be as mentally hard as possible (not wearing race flats in MP training runs etc) so that come race day you recieve all the mental boosts you can get when arriving on the start line. BY doing these training runs outside a race it can make them mentally harder as well (personally I always find running with people easier and end up moving alot quicker on training run with less effort than I do on my own)

By not wearing flats during at least one of your marathon paced workouts Id predict a severe case of hamstring cramping after 18 miles. The body would not be used to such shoes and in turn only hinders marathon performance.

Clearlier

Woodchopper - I'd be very surprised if anybody suggested running a marathon in shoes that they hadn't trained in although that training could just be races if there were enough of them and particularly if some of them were done at MP effort.

ecoli - Looks like we might be slightly closer that I thought on racing. When I say all out racing I'm referring to the effort level in the race. I would also use a race to replace a session. Where I think we differ is that I would advise running the race at the effort that you would have used for the session. I wouldn't advise tapering for races during marathon training with one exception where a PB might be targeted. It also gives newer runners in particular a chance to practice marathon race prep including carb-loading (if so doing).

TFB - Marathons do hook you. I started off planning to do one just to get some kind of an aerobic base in with a view to going back to do some middle distance running. That seems to have been put on the long finger though. On the HR thing you have me thinking a little bit. For my first marathon I translated P&D runs into HR zones that I could target and found that I struggled to get above the threshold for entry. Initially I thought that it was just because I was undertrained but subsequently I heard a 2:17 guy talk about the difference between training and racing HR and realising that I had based my Max HR on a race I made some adjustments. Reading your training log, your race report and what you're saying here I'm wondering whether I shouldn't reset my sights.... Will think about it for a little while I think.

ecoli

Clearlier wrote: »

Woodchopper - I'd be very surprised if anybody suggested running a marathon in shoes that they hadn't trained in although that training could just be races if there were enough of them and particularly if some of them were done at MP effort.

ecoli - Looks like we might be slightly closer that I thought on racing. When I say all out racing I'm referring to the effort level in the race. I would also use a race to replace a session. Where I think we differ is that I would advise running the race at the effort that you would have used for the session. I wouldn't advise tapering for races during marathon training with one exception where a PB might be targeted. It also gives newer runners in particular a chance to practice marathon race prep including carb-loading (if so doing).

@ Woodchopper. Clearier is correct wouldnt agree with not wearing them I do think that you need to get used to them but this would be more track sessions and races rather than the Long runs and MP sessions (bar one exception below)

@ Clearier Interesting point on the effort of race to match missed session. Personally I feel that racing brings you out of you comfort zone a bit and shocks the system but again each to their own. I agree with you regarding the race day practice I am a huge fan of this. Usually one of the last sessions before the taper that i like to have athletes do is 15 miles at MP. For this one I have them do proper prep and (to satistfy Woodchoppers question:D) flats etc the whole bells and whistles of race day. Also like to have them do this race week (minus the carbo loading) usually the Tues or Wed have them simulate race day breakfast etc lacing up the shoes and then have them do a mile or two at MP. This I feel helps take the nervous edge of the race day and allows them to keep the head in the early stages of the race.

woodchopper

ecoli wrote: »

@ Woodchopper. Clearier is correct wouldnt agree with not wearing them I do think that you need to get used to them but this would be more track sessions and races rather than the Long runs and MP sessions (bar one exception below)

@ Clearier Interesting point on the effort of race to match missed session. Personally I feel that racing brings you out of you comfort zone a bit and shocks the system but again each to their own. I agree with you regarding the race day practice I am a huge fan of this. Usually one of the last sessions before the taper that i like to have athletes do is 15 miles at MP. For this one I have them do proper prep and (to satistfy Woodchoppers question:D) flats etc the whole bells and whistles of race day. Also like to have them do this race week (minus the carbo loading) usually the Tues or Wed have them simulate race day breakfast etc lacing up the shoes and then have them do a mile or two at MP. This I feel helps take the nervous edge of the race day and allows them to keep the head in the early stages of the race.

Would these athletes also be allowed to simulate the post marathon recovery on these days

ecoli

woodchopper wrote: »

Would these athletes also be allowed to simulate the post marathon recovery on these days

You mean post race beers?:D

As it is coming into the taper the body is allowed sufficient rest over the 2-3 weeks prior to race day to make sure that the get sufficient recovery from such a session

T runner

ecoli wrote: »

I would agree to you on this point but I think we come at the same problem from different angles and this is more a Daniels v Lydiard argument rather than ignoring an aspect of a marathon plan. While I would argue the volume of your Vo2max sessions interpretation of how stressful that would be (havent read Daniels in a while but from what i remember his R paced work was very little volume in relation to overall weekly mileage)

Yes alot of schedules tell you X miles on Y day etc and often ignore things such as form development and deficency. For the development of running form however the early stage hill work is used where you would have a Vo2 Max sessions as well as regular drills. With these two aspects you are dealing with that problem among many training schedules

I know Lydiard preaches hill circuits to work on form and approaches the problem from a different angle. Raighne would be the man to ask about this as he is alot more knowledgeable about the Lydiard training than me (my approach is based in his theory but not independently). Here is also a link taht will give you some background:

http://www.fitnesssports.com/lyd_clinic_guide/Arthur%20Lydiard.pdf

Ive been doing Lydiard hill circuits on and off since 2002 to be honest.

They are good for strenght and a mid pack runner will gain limited RE also from ankle power but it is very difficult for anyone but a very strong and well conditioned runner to get the benefits of form from them.

TBH drills, strides etc rarely have a significant affect on running form of mid mileage runners. (theyre running style is too much at variance to the drills, which are better to correct small flaws in runners with already economical styles). Mid volume runners need more volume at pace to iron out the serious flaws which make a significant difference to such a runners marathon prospects.

If you look at runners in the range of 3.15 to 4:30 their form is gernerally poor. Running economy is clearly a weakness for these runners and a significant breakthrough may be achieved by addressing their running form early in the program. Perhaps as suggested a 10k phase could be targetted with emphasis on form through short controlled VO2 max intervals aswell as early stamina development.

I wont labour the point anymore but running economy seems such a huge potential area of improvement for any boardsies that might use a schedule from this thread not to be addressed compehensively

Clearlier

T runner wrote: »

I wont labour the point anymore but running economy seems such a huge potential area of improvement for any boardsies that might use a schedule from this thread not to be addressed compehensively

Actually this does seem like a point worth labouring and I'm thinking that it should be our next point of discussion. How can runners improve their running economy? This is a pretty broad topic but given that we're talking about 2:45 - 3:30 runners many of whom will have a limited amount of time to train we could probably touch on the bits that will have the biggest impact. Off the top of my head, strength training, neuromuscular sessions and stretching (most controversial?) probably need to be addressed but obviously discussion of other areas is very welcome too.

ecoli

Clearlier wrote: »

Actually this does seem like a point worth labouring and I'm thinking that it should be our next point of discussion. How can runners improve their running economy? This is a pretty broad topic but given that we're talking about 2:45 - 3:30 runners many of whom will have a limited amount of time to train we could probably touch on the bits that will have the biggest impact. Off the top of my head, strength training, neuromuscular sessions and stretching (most controversial?) probably need to be addressed but obviously discussion of other areas is very welcome too.

Plyometrics
I think this is one aspect which alot of athletes tend to ignore and can be simply implemented into a training regime. Normally I would have athletes conduct low intensity plyometrics at the end of a warm up on session days. The main aim is that you are loosened out at this stage before you attempt these as between them and your planned session this can be severe on the body. More high intensity plyometric exericses I would have done 1-2 a week if possible. Try to keep these on easy days and (if possible) not on the day prior to more quality based sessions.

Strength training
One aspect which I am not up to speed on and would not usually incorporate in my plans (mainly as a result of my lack of knowledge rather than the merit of weight training). I usually would encourage body weight exercises though (push ups, etc) if an athlete wishes to utilize this aspect of training. Two things I do think which are important are core exercises and circuit work. Circuit work can be a great way to boost fitness and (provided the exercises are focusing more so on event specific movements) can be of great benefit. In terms of core i think the biggest problem with this is that many people view core work as stomach work and dont engage the muscles to sufficiently benefit from the workout. This can be great for maintaining form for longer as fatigue sets in

Stretching

Big advocate of flexibility it can have a major benefits to a runner. Try to get stretching and yoga incorporated as part of daily life of an athlete. I wont get into the pre/post workout stretching argument as i think it has more to do with people stretching incorrectly as not getting the best results from their stretching. Regardless i think flexibility is something which has to be worked on. Normally I try to advocate stretching/yoga as a seperate asppect of training and rather than stretch around there runs I have them spend +30 min at another time in the day to focus on their flexibility

There was a recently good post on stretching here that I think is a good one regarding correct approach to stretching:

oedipod wrote: »

Hanley, I'm not suggesting for a minute that stretching per se is bad (quite the opposite), just that the kind of stretching (relatively inexperienced) endurance athletes often do before a run may not be the best for either increasing ROM or their performance during that particular run. This generally entails them gritting their teeth, stretching until they feel a pain, holding that pain as long as they feel is masochistically appropriate, then stopping, with relief.

You asked for evidence that cold, static stretching before exercise increased injury risk (and reduced performance):

J Strength Cond Res. 2010 Sep;24(9):2274-9.

OR

J Strength Cond Res. 2009 Oct;23(7):2155-62. Effects of static stretching in warm-up on repeated sprint performance.


AND

Shrier I. Stretching before exercise does not reduce the risk of local muscle injury: a critical review of the clinical and basic science literature. Clin J Sport Med 1999;9:221–7.

AND

Clin J Sport Med. 2010 Jan;20(1):8-14. Comparison of active stretching technique and static stretching technique on hamstring flexibility.


I suppose what I'm saying is that they should try doing stretching for its own sake. Whether that's in the context of yoga, or in a running club or whatever doesn't matter much, but the attitude to it really does. If you're trying to get it out-of-the-way before you start your run it's likely to do you more harm than good, as the studies above have shown. They're not great but they're the best available evidence.

And for the money shot ( i know it's in dancers but bear with me its interesting):

J Strength Cond Res. 2009 Oct;23(7):2144-8.
A comparison of two stretching modalities on lower-limb range of motion measurements in recreational dancers. Wyon M, Felton L, Galloway S. Source: School of Sport, Performing Arts and Leisure, University of Wolverhampton, United Kingdom. m.wyon@wlv.ac.uk

Abstract : Most stretching techniques are designed to place a "stress" on the musculoskeletal unit that will increase its resting length and range of motion (ROM). Twenty-four adolescent dancers participated in a 6-week intervention program that compared low-intensity stretching (Microstretching) with moderate-intensity static stretching on active and passive ranges of motion. Microstretching is a new modality that reduces the possibility of the parasympathetic system being activated. Repeated measures analysis indicated changes in ROM over the intervention period (p < 0.05), with the Microstretching group demonstrating greater increases in passive and active ROM than the static stretch group (p < 0.01); there was no noted bilateral differences in ROM. The results from this study agree with past studies that have found that stretching increases the compliance of any given muscle and therefore increases the range of motion. One main finding of the present study was that throughout a 6-week training program very-low-intensity stretching had a greater positive effect on lower-limb ROM than moderate-intensity static stretching. The most interesting aspect of the study was the greater increase in active ROM compared to passive ROM by the Microstretching group. This suggests that adaptation has occurred within the muscle itself to a greater extent than in structures of the hip joint. Practical application for this technique suggests it is beneficial as a postexercise modality that potentially has a restorative component.


Now I know what you're thinking - female adolescent dancers - how does that apply to me? Well, they're from Wolverhampton - so they're Brummie birds. I once saw a woman outside a pub in Birmingham wearing a mini skirt in -2C weather with a pint in one hand and a pie in the other and she looked like she was no stranger to either of em. They're well harder than you.


What they mean by "parasympathetic system" and I mean by "parasympathetic supply" is the part of the central nervous system that opposes the "sympathetic", adrenaline-noradrenaline, fight-or-flight activity. This is the digestion, peeing, pooing, (orgasm), relaxation bit of the autonomic nervous system. To be clear, it doesn't do anything to the muscle itself (the fibre), but would increase blood flow to the muscle by dilating blood vessels and might improve oxygenation and even - maybe - glycogen synthesis. They suggest microstretching reduces pns supply - but other studies (largely in animals) have shown it to be increased.

T runner

Clearlier wrote: »

Actually this does seem like a point worth labouring and I'm thinking that it should be our next point of discussion. How can runners improve their running economy? This is a pretty broad topic but given that we're talking about 2:45 - 3:30 runners many of whom will have a limited amount of time to train we could probably touch on the bits that will have the biggest impact. Off the top of my head, strength training, neuromuscular sessions and stretching (most controversial?) probably need to be addressed but obviously discussion of other areas is very welcome too.

I would look at these as necessary tools to give the athlete the flexibilty and strenght to run more economically. How do you make the athlete run with better form?

I have a hunch that the single biggest fault in form of these athletes is not running tall. Other faults such as sitting in the bucket, hips back, legs not extended must necessarily be adjusted if the athlete is running in a tall gait.

If the athlete is not running tall (and has his/her hips back) then for each stride (distance?) the athlete must raise his knees higher (longer stride lenght) than the athlete with better form (everything else being equal).

Training for Paris last year, my form improved due to high mileage (80-90 miles per week) combined with some strenght and strides and faster aerobic running. (long fast runs/tempos/CC races).
I did not conciously run with better form.

Without the high mileage this year (doing 40-60) my form wasnt great.

It improved through concientous efforts to "run tall", "relax", "glide" during 5k pace 400 VO2 max reps.



The point im trying to make is that on lower mileage teh athlete may have to work concieniously on form during sessions. ie he needs some volume running with good form. I dont belive strides, strenght flexibilty alone will do it at this mileage.

4 sessions of the 400s above worked for me this year.

The question i guess is: What combination of workouts/excercises will get this type of athlete actually running with better form and economy?

Do strides etc alone really produce a significant change of form for this athlete? Or is a bigger volume of faster running necessary to hardwire form into his other faster efforts and general running?

If the answer is yes, then id suggest 400 reps at 5k pace with a minute rest as a possible form session. Keeping teh number of reps between 10 and 16 so VO2 max is only mildly developed in thsi early stage. This phase being just before the athletes specific marathon training pahse where he should run all his faster efforts with good economy.

To compensate for any loss in strenght due to the slighly lower mileage tehse sessions might entail i am throwing out the very controversial suggestion of selecting some of the athletes long, medium long and tempo runs to be on an uphill gradient (threadmill) during this phase.

Or are there better sessions/methods for improving form at this standard and mileage below elite?

Just to reiterate, i believe that runners in this category have far more to gain p[roportionatley by improving their form and economy than elites do and i belive that a marthaon schedule must ensure this type of athlete is running with good form and economy during his key sessions and come race day.

MaroonTam

Have to say - I am finding this the best thread on marathoning I have seen. This is the first thread I look for when I log in each day.

I am thinking that strength and form are vital for marathoners in the pace range 3:00:00 to 3:30:00. Most of the plans quoted on boards will focus on getting the distance in, which will take you so far.

In my personal situation I should be a 3:20:00 - 3:15:00 runner. In reality my two marathons have been much slower than this, I feel due to strength and form.

In each case, I have felt cardio wise I have been comfortable. However, I am significantly weaker on my left side. As I get past 16 miles this really starts to show, my whole running form starts to "droop / lean" towards the left, putting excess strain on the weaker side. this then leads to muscle fatigue and cramping issues (in racing and training runs).

Combination of core and form running I think would be a major improvement in this area, rather than the constant focus on mileage.

macinalli

MaroonTam wrote: »

However, I am significantly weaker on my left side.

Combination of core and form running I think would be a major improvement in this area, rather than the constant focus on mileage.

I know ecoli mentioned this above but I'm a recent convert to yoga and think that it really highlights these imbalances in the body. For example, I used to often think that I had tight calves, but the assumption was always there that both calves were the same - not so at all! The yoga exercises (ashtanga in my case) are a serious core workout that will highlight these imbalances and gradually work them out. Haven't put this to test in a marathon yet but I definitely feel more comfortable in my running since taking up yoga.

macinalli

+1 for MaroonTams point about this being a quality thread!

I had a question about PMP miles in LSRs. Am currently training for Liverpool in early Oct and had planned on adding some PMP miles but have no idea on how to do this. For example, how many of these LSR + PMP sessions should I do? How long should the PMP section of the run be? Does this need to be gradually built up? I'm expecting that these will take a lot out of me - want to introduce them the right way!

Marthastew

Woddle wrote: »

It's a great thread with great contributors. I'm going to try and summarise some of the best bits over the weekend and I've already got a couple of more questions based on some of the feedback.

It is a fantastic thread, I've only been running for three and a half years and therefore don't have enough expertise or experience to contribute anything substantial.
However, I do feel that I am learning a huge amount, it's almost like somebody has highlighted the good/relevant parts in a book and it saves me reading the stuff I'm not interested in!

Thanks:)

MaroonTam

macinalli wrote: »

I know ecoli mentioned this above but I'm a recent convert to yoga and think that it really highlights these imbalances in the body. For example, I used to often think that I had tight calves, but the assumption was always there that both calves were the same - not so at all! The yoga exercises (ashtanga in my case) are a serious core workout that will highlight these imbalances and gradually work them out. Haven't put this to test in a marathon yet but I definitely feel more comfortable in my running since taking up yoga.

I tried palates for this, but found I needed more frequency / intensity, so started with a more specific core based routine. Again - fallen out of the habit (along with most of my routine post Edinburgh) but its on the to- do list :rolleyes:

TFBubendorfer

MaroonTam wrote: »

As I get past 16 miles this really starts to show, my whole running form starts to "droop / lean" towards the left, putting excess strain on the weaker side. this then leads to muscle fatigue and cramping issues (in racing and training runs).

Combination of core and form running I think would be a major improvement in this area, rather than the constant focus on mileage.

I used to do that as well. I was not aware of it, but all photos of my earlier marathons show a lean to the left in the last few miles.

I'm sure this was down to a weak core, but personally I didn't fix this by specific core exercise but by running high mileage. After a couple of years, the lean disappeared.