Boardsies marathon plan by debate

tunguska

Gringo78 wrote: »

Tergat recommended some good PMP sessions as part of a long run - his 5-4-3-2-1 session which was 5 miles at PMP, 2-4min jog recovery, 4 miles PMP, jog recovery etc. 15miles PMP but not all at once so maybe not as stressful

Looks a lot like a session in Daniels' elite marathon program, only instead of M-pace miles its T-pace miles. Savage session. Did my first one on monday just gone. The full session is:

2 miles easy + 4miles T-pace + 4mins jog + 3miles T-pace + 3mins jog + 2miles T-pace + 2mins jog + 1mile T-pace + 2 miles easy

So its 4-3-2-1. In a few weeks that progreses to 5-4-3-2-1, which is 15miles at Threshold pace. Brutal stuff but great training.

T runner

MaroonTam wrote: »

Trying to interpret McMillians intentions here.... Does he mean reduce each run by 10-20% AND and extra days rest? which would more likley lead to a 30-40% drop in total weekly milage?
Or take an extra rest day but continue as normal on all of the others to reduce by 10-20% of total milage?

I think he means 10-20% easier in total including a day off if desireable, possibly for runners who run only once per day.

Drop a session or reduce it accordingly.

So possibly: volume down by 20% (with or without a day off).

Intensity down by 33% - 50% (1 less session for a 3 session/2 session runner or equivalent reduction in duration). A 1 session runner should maybe just reduce duration).

Gringo78

tunguska wrote: »

Looks a lot like a session in Daniels' elite marathon program, only instead of M-pace miles its T-pace miles. Savage session. Did my first one on monday just gone. The full session is:

2 miles easy + 4miles T-pace + 4mins jog + 3miles T-pace + 3mins jog + 2miles T-pace + 2mins jog + 1mile T-pace + 2 miles easy

So its 4-3-2-1. In a few weeks that progreses to 5-4-3-2-1, which is 15miles at Threshold pace. Brutal stuff but great training.

That's a savage session - Daniels adjusted T-pace for the 5 & 4 mile reps is just above HM pace but that is still savage. Did the 5,4,3,2,1 at MP this week and I struggled badly on the 2 & 1. However, will try to up these weekly starting from the shorter rep to T-pace.

pgmcpq

Ok - not to hijack the subject - maybe we could put this on the agenda for later.

Clearlier wrote: »

1. Know yourself. Everybody has relative strengths and weaknesses.

Ahh ... but how. Running shorter distances repeatedly you learn what works and what does not. Running 2/3 marathons a year makes learning much tricker. Along with a number of others in this thread my marathon times lag my times at other distances even though comparatively I give much more attention to the marathon. I may not be doing the the "appropriate training" but having upped the milage I am not sure I am getting the "return" for the work I have put in (while ironically times at shorter distances have fallen quite a bit!). So this time aroound I am considering dropping mileage a little and increasing intensity later in the plan - more Daniels-like. So the question: how do you recognize strengths and weaknesses and broadly speaking how would we adjust plans for that.

In terms of running form - any comments on this:

http://www.active.com/running/Articles/Sensory_cues.htm

I was really taken by this when I read it in a book and still go back to it from time to time. Interestingly the author (Matt Fitzgerald) now seems to have renounced the whole idea in his latest book.

TFBubendorfer

pgmcpq wrote: »

In terms of running form - any comments on this:

http://www.active.com/running/Articles/Sensory_cues.htm

I was really taken by this when I read it in a book and still go back to it from time to time. Interestingly the author (Matt Fitzgerald) now seems to have renounced the whole idea in his latest book.

While I had liked the book originally, his ideas about running form was something that I could not get a handle on.

I noticed as well that he seems to have changed his mind in the meantime.

I get the impression he's favouring quantity over quality. He is publishing books at an enormous rate and they are all an easy read and seem to be ok at first sight, but the quality of the advice is lacking IMHO.

Gringo78

tunguska wrote: »

Looks a lot like a session in Daniels' elite marathon program, only instead of M-pace miles its T-pace miles. Savage session. Did my first one on monday just gone. The full session is:

2 miles easy + 4miles T-pace + 4mins jog + 3miles T-pace + 3mins jog + 2miles T-pace + 2mins jog + 1mile T-pace + 2 miles easy

So its 4-3-2-1. In a few weeks that progreses to 5-4-3-2-1, which is 15miles at Threshold pace. Brutal stuff but great training.

By the way, Daniels reference to 'miles' is only valid for 2:10 marathoners - otherwise he means mile at T pace to read 4.5min. Hence for a 2:30 marathoner "5 miles at T pace" would actually be around 4 miles. So for me, with a VDOT of 60, that session would become 3.8/3/2.3/1.5/0.75 at T-pace. That I may have some hope of doing. 5-4-3-2-1 @ T-pace - don't think so.

ecoli

pgmcpq wrote: »

Ahh ... but how. Running shorter distances repeatedly you learn what works and what does not. Running 2/3 marathons a year makes learning much tricker. Along with a number of others in this thread my marathon times lag my times at other distances even though comparatively I give much more attention to the marathon. I may not be doing the the "appropriate training" but having upped the milage I am not sure I am getting the "return" for the work I have put in (while ironically times at shorter distances have fallen quite a bit!). So this time aroound I am considering dropping mileage a little and increasing intensity later in the plan - more Daniels-like. So the question: how do you recognize strengths and weaknesses and broadly speaking how would we adjust plans for that.

I think this is a pretty interesting question and one that is very difficult to answer.

With the marathon the fact you are not racing this more than 1-2 times a year optimally there is less of a margin of error so we have to look to other aspects in order to establish our strengths and weaknesses.

As a result we have to look to our range of times and how training has effected them. Speed based runners tend to see greater drop offs in times as the distance increases compared to strength based runners who's times see less of a drop off and their times become more impressive as the distance increases.

I myself am more endurance based and know this as during my HM Pb race came through the 10k mark 13 seconds off my 10k Pb at the time and was able to continue on from there.

In terms of training to suit these weaknesses there are a few approaches which can be of some benefit:

Variety

A runner should never stray too far from any one aspect of their training. Even one session every 2-3 weeks just to keep the body in touch with all aspects. This is one reason why strides and hill sprints are often brought into base building phases in training plans to allow the legs stay in touch with a bit of speed. Often if you ignore these for too long you tend to struggle to get the speed back into the legs. Likewise in compeition phase athletes need to keep aerobic runs up to allow for the strength to race week in week out (obviously the opposite in marathon training)

Address the weaknesses early, specificity coming closer to races

An Athlete is only as good as their weakest link. If we focus on one aspect of training independently it risks inhibiting the benefit of training. As Clearier mentioned in a post earlier he seems to find a quality session every few weeks seems to "lock in fitness". This is why you see many middle distance runners spend the winter months working on strength ( long runs, tempos etc). these are speed based runners who aim to address their weaknesses in early training and then move on to specific training for races in the spring/summer. The strength gained allows them to conduct more volume in their quality sessions and as a result benefits the training all around. Likewise many marathon runners focus on short distance training (normally 5k-10k training) before they enter their marathon specific training phase. The benefits of having an extra gear got from the speed aspect of their training means they have a new level (speed) which to develop and attempt to maintain for longer durations

e.g a 20 min runner for 5k even if they train their body to maintain that pace for a marathon still has a limit to how fast they can run without developing their 5k time

Respect your weakness's

If a marathon runner is looking to develop speed they must approach it differently to how they would normal training. Often if a runner is not used to short track intervals they are going to be sore after as its a shock to the body. They certainly can't do the same amount of reps and same duration of recovery for a 3k paced session that they would for a 10k paced session. Volume and recovery must be adjusted accordingly to make allowances for the fact that it is the weak aspect of their training. One of the biggest mistakes with going from strength to speed is that people try to force speed by carrying out too much too often to try and compensate for the lack in the particular aspect of training (in this case speed). If someone looks to incoporate such sessions they should not be too frequent (once every 2-3 weeks until the body becomes used to it)

tunguska

Gringo78 wrote: »

By the way, Daniels reference to 'miles' is only valid for 2:10 marathoners - otherwise he means mile at T pace to read 4.5min. Hence for a 2:30 marathoner "5 miles at T pace" would actually be around 4 miles. So for me, with a VDOT of 60, that session would become 3.8/3/2.3/1.5/0.75 at T-pace. That I may have some hope of doing. 5-4-3-2-1 @ T-pace - don't think so.

My Vdot is 63(at the moment) but myself and the guy Im training with chose to use miles instead of minutes. At frist we were gonna go with minutes thinking miles would be too much but we decided to give it a go and if it was too much we'd revert to minutes. But its ok, hard going but definitely doable. The point is things can look scary on paper but when you actually try them for yourself the reality isnt so frightening.

woodchopper

tunguska wrote: »

My Vdot is 63(at the moment) but myself and the guy Im training with chose to use miles instead of minutes. At frist we were gonna go with minutes thinking miles would be too much but we decided to give it a go and if it was too much we'd revert to minutes. But its ok, hard going but definitely doable. The point is things can look scary on paper but when you actually try them for yourself the reality isnt so frightening.

I'm more of a Renato Cavona fan but how hard are these threshold repeats that Daniels advices. I guess its around 15 miles at marathon pace rather than 15 miles at half marathon pace which would be crazy.

seanynova

Gringo78 wrote: »

By the way, Daniels reference to 'miles' is only valid for 2:10 marathoners - otherwise he means mile at T pace to read 4.5min. Hence for a 2:30 marathoner "5 miles at T pace" would actually be around 4 miles. So for me, with a VDOT of 60, that session would become 3.8/3/2.3/1.5/0.75 at T-pace. That I may have some hope of doing. 5-4-3-2-1 @ T-pace - don't think so.

tunguska wrote: »

My Vdot is 63(at the moment) but myself and the guy Im training with chose to use miles instead of minutes. At frist we were gonna go with minutes thinking miles would be too much but we decided to give it a go and if it was too much we'd revert to minutes. But its ok, hard going but definitely doable. The point is things can look scary on paper but when you actually try them for yourself the reality isnt so frightening.

i tried that session in mins this week, was going to do 20/15/10/5mins but it didnt work out to well.....not that the session was killer or anything(although hard) its just that i was tired and was a bad night for it....will progress to 25/20/15/10/5mins at peak....hopefully!

Gringo78

woodchopper wrote: »

I'm more of a Renato Cavona fan but how hard are these threshold repeats that Daniels advices. I guess its around 15 miles at marathon pace rather than 15 miles at half marathon pace which would be crazy.

It is actually slightly faster than HM pace and is up to 15 miles at that pace depending on your VDOT. For me, VDOT 60 the session amounts to just over 11 miles at HM pace - there are recoverys though. Tunguska would have done the session with 15 miles at HM pace :eek: At the moment I am doing the 'light' version which was 15 miles at MP this week rather than HMP but am bringing in the tempos slowly week by week and have managed 14min-12min-10min-8min this week (or 7 miles at HM pace) within a 15mile run and will try to up that next week.

woodchopper

Gringo78 wrote: »

It is actually slightly faster than HM pace and is up to 15 miles at that pace depending on your VDOT. For me, VDOT 60 the session amounts to just over 11 miles at HM pace - there are recoverys though. Tunguska would have done the session with 15 miles at HM pace :eek: At the moment I am doing the 'light' version which was 15 miles at MP this week rather than HMP but am bringing in the tempos slowly week by week and have managed 14min-12min-10min-8min this week (or 7 miles at HM pace) within a 15mile run and will try to up that next week.

That is much more sensible. Does anyone here believe Allistair Cragg runs 15 miles at half marathon pace during a workout? marathon pace maybe. I have heard of athletes doing up to 10 with recoveries ie 5 by 2 mile and by this I mean elite Kenyans, but 5-4-3-2-1- is ridiculous and will lead to injury or burnout. There is nothing wrong with tough workouts but this one is crazy. Its like going onto the track and doing 10 by a k at 3k/5k pace. 7 miles at half marathon pace is a good workout. Tunguska is clearly underestimating his half marathon ability. No athlete could do 15 miles faster than their true half marathon pace.

Gringo78

woodchopper wrote: »

That is much more sensible. Does anyone here believe Allistair Cragg runs 15 miles at half marathon pace during a workout? marathon pace maybe. I have heard of athletes doing up to 10 with recoveries ie 5 by 2 mile and by this I mean elite Kenyans, but 5-4-3-2-1- is ridiculous and will lead to injury or burnout. There is nothing wrong with tough workouts but this one is crazy. Its like going onto the track and doing 10 by a k at 3k/5k pace. 7 miles at half marathon pace is a good workout. Tunguska is clearly underestimating his half marathon ability. No athlete could do 15 miles faster than their true half marathon pace.

No athlete could do 15 straight - but there are recoveries - 5 min after the 5 miles, 4 after the 4 etc. For a VDOT of 60, Daniels would have me do 11 miles which I think is eventually doable - but thats 19 weeks into a Daniels plan, thats after a lot of training and build up!

TFBubendorfer

woodchopper wrote: »

Tunguska is clearly underestimating his half marathon ability.

To be perfectly honest, I thought the same. Even so it's still a savage session, though.

tunguska

woodchopper wrote: »

but 5-4-3-2-1- is ridiculous and will lead to injury or burnout.

Really, and you know this from having tried that session yourself? Talk is cheap, only one way to find out and thats to have a crack at things yourself.

woodchopper wrote: »

Tunguska is clearly underestimating his half marathon ability. No athlete could do 15 miles faster than their true half marathon pace.

I made no mention of Half marathon pace or anything to do with a half marathon so you're jumping to conclusions there woody.

woodchopper

tunguska wrote: »

Really, and you know this from having tried that session yourself? Talk is cheap, only one way to find out and thats to have a crack at things yourself.




I made no mention of Half marathon pace or anything to do with a half marathon so you're jumping to conclusions there woody.

Well since the workout entails that speed than either you completed that workout or else you did 15 at a slower pace which is nothing exceptional. By the way in case your ego gets in the way Im a bit old to be doing those sort of workouts but how many years have you been in Kenya watching Rosa and Cavona? Your results do the talking sunshine, I hope you are in 2.15 shape by the way you go about your business.

Regards Woodchopper

tunguska

woodchopper wrote: »

Well since the workout entails that speed than either you completed that workout or else you did 15 at a slower pace which is nothing exceptional. By the way in case your ego gets in the way Im a bit old to be doing those sort of workouts but how many years have you been in Kenya watching Rosa and Cavona? Your results do the talking sunshine, I hope you are in 2.15 shape by the way you go about your business.

Regards Woodchopper

Sure thing woody, whatever you say. I'll make one more post on the matter then I'm gonna leave it at that because you're incapable of carrying on a reasonable debate.
I said the 5-4-3-2-1 session is to be completed in a few weeks time, so I havent even gotten to it yet. Could go tits up or it could go well, who knows. Like I said, only one way to find out. But you should read my posts properly before you go off on one. I've completed the 4-3-2-1 session at Threshold pace. I made no mention of half marathon pace.

MaroonTam

Hopefully bring the debate back on track...

ecoli wrote: »

Address the weaknesses early, specificity coming closer to races

An Athlete is only as good as their weakest link. If we focus on one aspect of training independently it risks inhibiting the benefit of training. As Clearier mentioned in a post earlier he seems to find a quality session every few weeks seems to "lock in fitness". This is why you see many middle distance runners spend the winter months working on strength ( long runs, tempos etc). these are speed based runners who aim to address their weaknesses in early training and then move on to specific training for races in the spring/summer. The strength gained allows them to conduct more volume in their quality sessions and as a result benefits the training all around. Likewise many marathon runners focus on short distance training (normally 5k-10k training) before they enter their marathon specific training phase. The benefits of having an extra gear got from the speed aspect of their training means they have a new level (speed) which to develop and attempt to maintain for longer durations

e.g a 20 min runner for 5k even if they train their body to maintain that pace for a marathon still has a limit to how fast they can run without developing their 5k time

Ecoli, I think my weaknesses are strength endurance. As this would also count as the Marathon specific phase, what would be the best approach?

I doubt running 20 miles or marathon paced sessions early in the base phase is the way to go, so do I reasses whether the Marathon is the right event? or are there other ways to work on these areas without getting into the specific sessions of a Marathon plan?

(ok, I supoose its a little off topic, as I am talking about the phase before the Marathon plan )

shels4ever

woodchopper wrote: »

That is much more sensible. Does anyone here believe Allistair Cragg runs 15 miles at half marathon pace during a workout? marathon pace maybe. I have heard of athletes doing up to 10 with recoveries ie 5 by 2 mile and by this I mean elite Kenyans, but 5-4-3-2-1- is ridiculous and will lead to injury or burnout. There is nothing wrong with tough workouts but this one is crazy. Its like going onto the track and doing 10 by a k at 3k/5k pace. 7 miles at half marathon pace is a good workout. Tunguska is clearly underestimating his half marathon ability. No athlete could do 15 miles faster than their true half marathon pace.

Maybe i'm a bit of a idiot but how can you do 15 miles @ halfmarathon pace? Is the idea of half marathon pace not your current ability over the distance if you can do 15 miles @ your half marathon pace then your half marathon pace is to slow.
Must read more of these Daniels books now

shels4ever

tunguska wrote: »

Sure thing woody, whatever you say. I'll make one more post on the matter then I'm gonna leave it at that because you're incapable of carrying on a reasonable debate.
I said the 5-4-3-2-1 session is to be completed in a few weeks time, so I havent even gotten to it yet. Could go tits up or it could go well, who knows. Like I said, only one way to find out. But you should read my posts properly before you go off on one. I've completed the 4-3-2-1 session at Threshold pace. I made no mention of half marathon pace.

Have you set any targets for Dublin yet?
Any chance of starting a log again as I like the look of your training and you last log was great.

Woddle

shels4ever wrote: »

Have you set any targets for Dublin yet?
Any chance of starting a log again as I like the look of your training and you last log was great.

+1 to that, I'd love to see what you and Phil get up to.

woodchopper

tunguska wrote: »

Sure thing woody, whatever you say. I'll make one more post on the matter then I'm gonna leave it at that because you're incapable of carrying on a reasonable debate.
I said the 5-4-3-2-1 session is to be completed in a few weeks time, so I havent even gotten to it yet. Could go tits up or it could go well, who knows. Like I said, only one way to find out. But you should read my posts properly before you go off on one. I've completed the 4-3-2-1 session at Threshold pace. I made no mention of half marathon pace.

Good luck although I hope it is not done the day before your 30 mile run at six minute mile pace or did you actually do that workout. I remember some intersting runs on you auld log the Dark Side.

Gringo78

shels4ever wrote: »

Maybe i'm a bit of a idiot but how can you do 15 miles @ halfmarathon pace? Is the idea of half marathon pace not your current ability over the distance if you can do 15 miles @ your half marathon pace then your half marathon pace is to slow.
Must read more of these Daniels books now

It's not 15 miles in a row - same way you can do 8km at 5km pace - if you do it as 8x1km reps

Gringo78

tunguska wrote: »

i've completed the 4-3-2-1 session at Threshold pace. I made no mention of half marathon pace.

It was I who mentioned HM pace - but for VDOTs in your range, Daniels T pace or Threshold pace IS half marathon pace

shels4ever

Gringo78 wrote: »

It's not 15 miles in a row - same way you can do 8km at 5km pace - if you do it as 8x1km reps

Cheers sounds a lot more possible that way, Havent read a huge amout on Daniels but going to have a propper read one of these days.

Woddle

shels4ever wrote: »

Cheers sounds a lot more possible that way, Havent read a huge amout on Daniels but going to have a propper read one of these days.

Well worth it, I'll give you a lend if you like.
I'm now a convert and for whenever my next marathon is I'll be using him. I think a runners evolution from beginner to 2:xx looks sth like below
Hal Higdon - Pfitzinger & Douglas - Jack Daniels

tunguska

shels4ever wrote: »

Have you set any targets for Dublin yet?
Any chance of starting a log again as I like the look of your training and you last log was great.

Woddle wrote: »

+1 to that, I'd love to see what you and Phil get up to.

I wont start up a log(would drain me having to argue with woody every day) but I am recording everything I do. So when the marathon is over I'll post the whole thing up for anybody whos interested. But we're following daniels elite plan, so what we're doing is identical to that, if you have the book and want to see what we're up to.

shels4ever

tunguska wrote: »

I wont start up a log(would drain me having to argue with woody every day) but I am recording everything I do. So when the marathon is over I'll post the whole thing up for anybody whos interested. But we're following daniels elite plan, so what we're doing is identical to that, if you have the book and want to see what we're up to.

Cool, best of luck with the training.

tHE vAGGABOND

Just read this thread for the first time and its excellent, just wanted to post a short thanks to all the regular posters...

Doing Dublin as a newbie this year, and even tho my target is outside of the time's being thrown around there really are some great words and concepts in there, all the more so for uncoached "hackers" like me :cool:

Krusty_Clown

Woddle wrote: »

Well worth it, I'll give you a lend if you like.
I'm now a convert and for whenever my next marathon is I'll be using him. I think a runners evolution from beginner to 2:xx looks sth like below
Hal Higdon - Pfitzinger & Douglas - Jack Daniels

Some of us never got past P&D and managed 2:4x. Others never managed to get past Hal Higdon and have managed 2:42:x.
Sometimes it's about finding the right program, rather than evolving!

gerard65

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Some of us never got past P&D and managed 2:4x. Others never managed to get past Hal Higdon and have managed 2:42:x.
Sometimes it's about finding the right program, rather than evolving!

+1. Daniels admits himself that his methods don't work for all. In his book he writes of a runner who when he started coaching using his method actually went backwards in her times, and only when she switched to her previous 'steady type running' regained her form.
There's not alot of difference between P&D and Daniels, both use the same type of LT, VOmax sessions, Daniels just uses them more often.

ecoli

gerard65 wrote: »

+1. Daniels admits himself that his methods don't work for all. In his book he writes of a runner who when he started coaching using his method actually went backwards in her times, and only when she switched to her previous 'steady type running' regained her form.
There's not alot of difference between P&D and Daniels, both use the same type of LT, VOmax sessions, Daniels just uses them more often.

Agree on this point. I tried Daniels approach before and didnt suit me personally despite hundreds of people swearing by it (perhaps the reason why I am not hugely influenced by the training methods in my approach to training as I can't relate to it as much as I can with other methods and base alot of my training aspects on what works using myself as a guinea pig)

Woddle

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Some of us never got past P&D and managed 2:4x. Others never managed to get past Hal Higdon and have managed 2:42:x.
Sometimes it's about finding the right program, rather than evolving!

You're right of course, point well made.

ecoli

Right time to bring this thread back on track and hopefully keep it going. To summarise what has been covered so far here are topics which have been dealt with

• Duration
• Days per week
• Miles per week
• Long Run
• Quality Work
• Racing
• Running economy- Strength training, Plyometrics, Stretching
• Down weeks
• Variety in Training

Is there any other topics people wish to bring up (aside from the taper which will hopefully be saved for last

tHE vAGGABOND

Food / Nutrition

Is 50% carb intake while training realistic or excessive? What kinds of foods are folks eating, and in what kinds of quantities?

Woddle

ecoli wrote: »

• Duration
• Days per week
• Miles per week
• Long Run
• Quality Work
• Racing
• Running economy- Strength training, Plyometrics, Stretching
• Down weeks
• Variety in Training

Tapering is another important topic. Most programs will have 3 weeks, I think that's too long, 10 days to 2 weeks is what I'll probably try for my next one.
Any thoughts?

donothoponpop

Woddle wrote: »

Tapering is another important topic. Most programs will have 3 weeks, I think that's too long, 10 days to 2 weeks is what I'll probably try for my next one.
Any thoughts?

It depends what you mean by taper- I've gotten the impression from reading some logs* that a taper means end of hard training for some runners. Three weeks to go and the junk carbs come out, emphasis is on resting up, the tough work is all done.

A three week taper should be (assuming the previous week has been 100% toughest in training);
3 weeks to go- 80%
2 weeks to go- 60%
1 week to go- 40%

Plenty of scope for tough workouts in there.


*my log.

menoscemo

donothoponpop wrote: »

It depends what you mean by taper- I've gotten the impression from reading some logs* that a taper means end of hard training for some runners. Three weeks to go and the junk carbs come out, emphasis is on resting up, the tough work is all done.

A three week taper should be (assuming the previous week has been 100% toughest in training);
3 weeks to go- 80%
2 weeks to go- 60%
1 week to go- 40%

Plenty of scope for tough workouts in there.


*my log.

I agree with this. Keep the intensity and number of workouts but decrease the overall mileage.

Clearlier

At 5ft9 and about 90kgs I'm steering clear of the nutrition debate except to say that I think that Matt Fitzgerald's book 'Racing Weight' is worth reading on the subject.

In respect of the taper I think that it's important to take into consideration what training you have been doing. If you've had a short build up then reduce the taper, if you haven't been killing yourself in training reduce the taper. On the other hand if you have been churning out 100mpw+ for weeks on end and are permanently exhausted make sure that you give yourself enough time to be ready. I completely agree with donothoponthepop that it's volume and not intensity that needs to be reduced although I would largely back off both for the week leading up to the marathon.

ecoli

Its seems as though everyone has similar thoughts regarding the taper. The idea of a 2-3 week progressive reduction of volume keeping intensity of training fairly similar

The figures DP gives are similar to what I would use to

Week 3 75% of previous mileage
Week 2 50% of previous mileage
Week 1 30% of previous mileage

The mistake that many people make is that they see this period as a rest period, drop the miles and stick to easy running. This is okay for beginners or people who have been based on a training plan which is purely designed to get them to cover the distance. With training plans that incorporate more variety in the training though the person must continue some form of this to keep the legs "awake" so that they are prepared come race day.

These sessions should be similar to that they were doing throughout the plan though I would avoid LSRs that incorporate MP segments. If you wish to include these types of sessions I would suggest doing these in replacement of a easy run on say the sat so per example:

| Typical Week Training | Taper Week Training |
Mon | easy run | easy run
Tues | easy run | easy run
Wed | session | session
Thurs | easy run | easy run
Fri | easy run | easy run
Sat | easy run | Short MP run
Sun | LSR w/MP | easy long run

In the week coming up to a race i suggest one last small bit of quality work early in the week. The approach I use with my athletes is to conduct a dress rehearsal of the race. The idea is they wake up same time as they would race day, eat same breakfast, lace up their racers, same warm up etc everything the same and then get them to do 2 miles @ MP and then follow this up with a few strides. I find that this helps an athlete ease the nerves a bit on race day and can help make sure that they dont go out to hard as they have the confidence of doing similar days before.

Sleep
Regarding sleep the week coming up to a race my suggestion is try to maintain regualr sleeping patterns. Trying to get extra sleep can have adverse effects the following night as you are over rested and as such suffer the following night.If you can get odd afternoon nap in early in the week coming up to the race even for 20 min/ half an hour this can be of benefit but again not essential. The most crucial night of sleep is actually 2 days before race and not the night before. If you do not get enough sleep that night it can inhibit the recovery process (during deep sleep via delta brainwaves) on the night before the race. The body requires a certain amount of hours before it can enter deep sleep and if you do not get sufficent sleep one night your body requires you make up for this sleep deficit the following night before it can enter deep sleep.

RacoonQueen

Thought it would be interesting to kick up this thread and I know a lot on here will be self coached for this marathon regime.
13 weeks to Rotterdam so I'm looking at 3 x 4 week blocks now and have just finished a 4 week block of work.
So 3 weeks of training, 1 week recovery...that'll come to the last 3 hard weeks + 1 week easy + 1 week left, so a two week taper in the end.

demfad

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Thought it would be interesting to kick up this thread and I know a lot on here will be self coached for this marathon regime.
13 weeks to Rotterdam so I'm looking at 3 x 4 week blocks now and have just finished a 4 week block of work.
So 3 weeks of training, 1 week recovery...that'll come to the last 3 hard weeks + 1 week easy + 1 week left, so a two week taper in the end.

Great idea. Give us an idea of the last 4 weeks and how it is progressing to this point. Mileage, Type of sessions/runs you've done, how they have progressed and races etc. Also where your strengths/weaknesses are and what kind of runs you like, dread etc

Bez Bing

Just reading through this thread, some very good info btw, but one question i have is around the structure of P&D marathon plan.
I followed that plan for NYC last year and really liked it but it seems from comments in this thread that VO2MAX sessions in the last few weeks before the marathon are not advised but P&D has vo2max sessions every week from 6 weeks out from the goal race until the week of the race.
I was going to follow the plan again for my marathon this year but am having second thoughts based on the comments in this thread.

Anyone care to elaborate on why they think an experienced coach like Pfitzinger would make such a fundamental error in his plan?

demfad

Bez Bing wrote: »

Just reading through this thread, some very good info btw, but one question i have is around the structure of P&D marathon plan.
I followed that plan for NYC last year and really liked it but it seems from comments in this thread that VO2MAX sessions in the last few weeks before the marathon are not advised but P&D has vo2max sessions every week from 6 weeks out from the goal race until the week of the race.
I was going to follow the plan again for my marathon this year but am having second thoughts based on the comments in this thread.

Anyone care to elaborate on why they think an experienced coach like Pfitzinger would make such a fundamental error in his plan?

I think the reason there might be a question mark is that at the VO2max paces you are burning glycogen (fuel) more quickly than at marathon pace. The worry is that the body might adapt to this and may cause a fade at the end of the race when fuel burns out too quickly. That said the long fastish runs may balance this out. I wouldn't be too worried about it. Just make sure to run those sessions very controlled and make sure you understand that the long stuff is most important.
I may be mistaken but I think positioning fast intense workouts further out from the marathon is a recent development in marathon coaching which may have arisen after these schedules were devised perhaps. Again I wouldn't see a problem so long as you don't hammer those sessions and you are covered for the long stuff.

Edit: As you've done it successfully before youll know what works. If you did notice a fade, and you ran the prescribed schedule then you could run the sessions slower as stated. Also IMO the majority of Marathon pace sessions should be run at marathon effort because, depending on how you feel or conditions on the training day, marathon pace may be more like 20 mile race intensity which makes a fade more likely too. If the week feels too easy on the lower intensity simply add miles to the easy days or run some of the long runs faster.

Amadeus 2014

One interesting thing for a more experienced runner to do would be to mix and match plans as well. I've always liked the individual sessions in a Daniels plan but prefer the structure of P&D. What would be interesting would be to take the equivalent speed sessions from the same phase of the Daniels plan and drop them into P&D. You'd need to do some tuning of the easy days to make sure you don't overload but a hybrid of that type would be a cracking plan

adrian522

I plan to attempt to integrate some sort of plan with club training. I found this difficult last year and just followed P&D really.

If I do a marathon again I'd really want to do a plan myself or amend one of the generic plans to suit myself better I think.

Murph_D

adrian522 wrote: »

I plan to attempt to integrate some sort of plan with club training. I found this difficult last year and just followed P&D really.

If I do a marathon again I'd really want to do a plan myself or amend one of the generic plans to suit myself better I think.

What went wrong for you with P&D, Adrian? Do you see the plan as responsible for your injury layoff or was there more to it?

adrian522

mm, not sure. Nothing wrong with the plan I guess. I think I tried to come back to quickly from the initial injury.

I also probably stuck to the plan too rigidly. I would say for me personally doing a session one day, followed by a medium long run of 12-15 miles the next is not ideal.

I'd probably tone down the overall volume of the plan a little. I'll have to sit down and work something out at some point.

AuldManKing

Bumping this up again as Autumn Marathon training approaches.

Would any of the contributors change the advice that they have given in the thread based on new knowledge/experience over the 5 years? (Myles / Demfad / Clearlier)

Myles Splitz

AuldManKing wrote: »

Bumping this up again as Autumn Marathon training approaches.

Would any of the contributors change the advice that they have given in the thread based on new knowledge/experience over the 5 years? (Myles / Demfad / Clearlier)

Blast from the past. Had to read back over it and see what my stance was on things. Thankfully still agree with the general advice that I gave initially although these days the specifics may have changed a small bit as I continued to learn and evolve my own methodologies.

The one thing that did stand out to me though was this post:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72845371&postcount=39

More specifically the 1st section of sessions as it looks errily close to the styles of sessions that I have scheduled into part of my own plan for Dublin, more specifically the progressive Threshold intervals. I think these are a great marathon specific session especially coming off a strong 10k block as support sessions for your main longer ones.

The interval sandwiches look pretty good to (very similar to the likes of training Ben True does going by his strava account)