How to scold a very bold child

wolfpawnat

Hey all.

Aidan is 2 years and 4 months old now, he has a very basic grasp on English and refuses to listen to the word no (not an usual situation for toddlers I know). But here's the thing, for the last 10 days he has been really badly behaved. Over the last few months I have tried time outs, corners, steps, you name it, we have tried it, the only thing that half works ignoring him. But that leads to the situation of it gets worse before it gets better. The bedroom is always turned upside down now because when he gets mad he pulls apart everything as a form of dirty protest.

I can literally go nowhere without getting dirty looks and constant comments about his behaviour! He uses this really high pitched scream and it drives everyone around him insane. It is embarrassing and headache causing. I cannot blame people for being annoyed.

Has anyone any suggestions for something a bit different, because at this stage I feel I have tried everything other than giving him a slap. I rather not rear my son that way, but in all honesty I cannot leave my house without him being absolutely horrific in the last 10 days!

Any suggestions???

snuggles09

i had the same thing with my eldest when she was hitting 3, to the point where she took her pull up off and smeared her poo all over her carpet bed and wall:eek: she was a nightmare but now she's good as gold and the best child

it's a phase but i understand that doesnt help your situation

when she would get into a temper i would put her in her room, stand outside and hold the door. she would kick and scream but there was no way she was getting out until she calmed down her temper, if it took 10 mins or 10 hours i was so pissed off at this stage with her behaviour, she would eventually calm down and just start that crying thing

i've also turned the car around and brought her home when she started in the car and at that age you'd think they wouldnt notice but she did and she eventually gave it up. i also did slap her on occassions ( i dont mean whallop i mean a slap to the bum) and she realised that if she kept it up she was in big big trouble with me

to be honest play school was the making of her, they don't stand for bad behaviour in a play school and have ways of positiviely reinforcing discipline but that wouldnt work at home as all kids play up on their own parents,

i think the phrase was street angel house devil. it's not fair on you that you are getting looks when you go out but like you said if someone elses child was carrying on that way around you you'd be thinking christ would they ever do something with that child so now is the time to act while he is young

the next time he starts pick him up and put him in his room and ignore his protests, he needs to know he'll get more attention for doing good things rather than bad. praise all the good he does and ignore the bad and by ignore i mean tell him off and put him in his room. he'll soon associate being bold with being put in his room and ignored so that would nip it in the bud

i'm not a child psychologist so ignore all the above if you want i'm just a mother of 3 cracked little ladies:D

Moonbeam

Talk to your gp or public health nurse. If he does not have good language skills maybe he is. Frustrated with trying to communicate .
We get tantrums too and if she does not explain why and there is no visible reason then I mostly ignore her .

LegacyUser

Could I ask can your child speak so that other people know what he is saying or does it sound mumbled. A child I knew had a tongue tie & were trying to talk but everyone but // mother found it hard to understand //.
The child was cross because of this. Once they had an operation to correct this along with s. therapy the whole family could see the change in the child.
If you contact your local hse office they can give you more information.

If this is not the problem do the following.
Mammy does not like that boldness, mammy will count to 5 and if you don't stop you will get a slap. Give a slap on the hand or bottom.
Continue with this and Aidan will soon know that Mammy is boss. I know of some one with a child the same age and she has being doing this since he was small. He is good most of the time.

Keep a note of what you child is eating also - some children go wild after eating some foods. If you find this is the case keep Aidan away from them.

John Mason

Over the last few months I have tried time outs, corners, steps, you name it, we have tried it,

this jumped out at me - i think you should pick one punishment and stick to it because he is learning that if he kicks up enough, you will stop doing it.

but also he is 2 and his communication skill are not the best yet, it could be just pure frustration, that he cant explain what he wants or feels.

Have you thought about making mood cards? big colourful cards which show a basic range of emotions, explain what they are to him - like reading a book and talk about each mood - so when he gets frustrated all he has to do is point to one of the cards and you will have an idea of what is going on.

then again, it could just be the terrible 2's

metrovelvet

Can I ask you what is pissing him off so badly?

hoodwinked

i know alot of people think supernanny is a load of c**p but our just 2 year old had started doing similar things to what you are posting OP, i think its a combination of frustration over not being understood properly and 'terrible 2's' i started doing 'the naughty corner' ala supernanny and it works perfectly with my daughter,

and now we are at the stage where if she starts misbehaving i only need to ask her does she want to go on the naughty step and she thinks about it and goes and does something else instead...


it didn't start smoothly at first she tried acting up out and about because she felt there was no naughty step there,while she was as good as gold at home but once we started doing it everywhere she acted up she quickly realised the naughty corner was everywhere and now she simply stops,

there are still the odd times we do have to put her there but she is very much improved since we started doing it right.


EDIT: just noticed in your title you say bold child, please don't call him a bold child, i cant remember where i read/saw it, but it is supposedly really important you don't tell a child they are bold, its their actions are bold not them, i think i read it can be really damaging.

Moonbeam

I sometimes think positive re-enforcement works better rather then a naughty corner/step/chair it could be a thinking chair to think about why he is in trouble ,then discuss it after.
I think the most important bit is explaining to them why they are upsetting you and why what they are doing is unacceptable.

hoodwinked

Moonbeam wrote: »

I sometimes think positive re-enforcement works better rather then a naughty corner/step/chair it could be a thinking chair to think about why he is in trouble ,then discuss it after.
I think the most important bit is explaining to them why they are upsetting you and why what they are doing is unacceptable.

i agree with the positive re-enforcement, that's why when we put her there we explain calmly why she is there, give her a 2 minute time out (a minute for every year) and then remind her why she is there, she says sorry, and then we give her hugs and kisses tell her we love her and forget about it,

and its important to give her a warning first to give her a chance to make her own mind up, if she continues to do the wrong thing i agree with supernanny that it is important to let her know she has to be responsible for her own actions even from an early age, for a 2 year old she is very copped on in some areas in others then she is not, so we broach it all in a positive manner...situations and children all vary so much there is no real 'one thing fixes all'!

and i always thought parenting was easy

LadyMayBelle

I would be similar in thinking that a lot of his problem is communication; in order for him to communicate his feelings to you, as he cannot yet verbalise them sufficiently, he acts out, and acts out big! As another poster suggested, make some emotion cards, use colour; ask him which one shows you best how he is feeling; maybe even a homemade clock drawing with different pictures of people feeling differently. Is his frustration as big as a volcano or is he just feeling a little bit fed up..give him a crayon and scrap paper to show how angry he is…you’ve got to get creative and meet him where he is at.

Another suggestion I read about in ‘The Science of Parenting’ is learning to distinguish between real tantrums (use the above tools and rule out hunger, toothache, pain etc) and those not so real ones; when he is looking for attention. Learning to distinguish one from the other will help you learn to reinforce the positive behaviour and ignore the bad…yes it will be testing, but be consistent! You’ve already mentioned some really great ideas there that you have tried; reinvent and revisit. He sees already that he can get a reaction from you when he screams his little head off and causes you embarrassment.. don’t give in to him, ignore him and explain that he won’t be getting a treat/whatever. Praise the good behaviour. Granted you aren’t going to be able to whisk out crayons and the likes in Tesco, but there has to be other ideas you can come up with on the spot.

willow tree

as one of the posters said this too will pass.. definitely do not slap, its just bullying.. also the step is not a good idea.. i can see ive different approach to others but if you ignore your childs feeling they will grow into an adult who ignores their feelings.. i do think its agood idea to see if your child can communicate properly how they are feeling.. tell him you can see that he is feeling angry but you cant help him until he calms down.. remove him from situation, bring him to a room that he doesnt spend time in and say you will have a chat when he calms down. make sure you make up and you reinforce good feeling.. also distraction can work well depending.. my friend did bio energy with her lo and cranio sacral and said they worked well, good luck with it, its not easy;)

wolfpawnat

Thank you all for your replies.

He is very delayed in his speech, so to even ask him to point to a card is like me telling you to read Cantonese, so sadly that is not something that can work I am afraid

He is getting frustrated when I say no to things, such as him trying to grab yet another biscuit (after a previous 4!) Also when on public transport he wants to be allowed out of his buggy like other children, but this is not an option as he refuses to sit on a chair and tries to run around the carriage of the luas/train/DART/etc. I forced approx 70 people yesterday to have to listen to my son's extremely high pitched screech from Dublin to Ennis and it is not fair to them, they should not have to listen to that sort of noise, nor should I have to endure my ear drums nearly rupturing!

No, I do not call my son bold, his actions are bold, and he is told that they are bold and why they are so. But he himself is never called the bold one, though I do not believe in the modern day mantra of over coddling and causing children to be over precious, it is rather irritating IMHO, then again, my attitude of if a limb isn't broken your fine attitude does not suit over mothers, and I respect that.

I have slapped on occasion, always a light one on the hand, but kept for truly dangerous occasions, e.g. trying to go at the cooker when it is 200 degrees celcius, trying to run onto a road and trying to pull at stuff on a counter to cause it to fall (I am always terrified that someday it will be a boiling pot, though I am always vigilant to ensure this not happen).

I used to find putting him into his cot without saying or doing anything anyway aggressive with him with teddy and letting him scream it out to teddy, then when he calms down, go in and be all back to normal and tell him why he was put in and to get out the fee was one kiss and a cuddle and then continue the day as we were before with no more mention of it was working fantastic, usually we would have only one, maybe on a bad day two fits then, but now he is no longer in the cot he is seriously resembling an anti-Christ!

I have always since day one known what each cry and tantrum meant, it has at times resulting in mothers thinking I am cruel, but once I say "I know you are just doing that for attention" he would stop mid wail, (much to many peoples amusement I may add). So I can tell that these resent "super tantrums" are not actual issues, just him being annoyed at not getting his way.

As for the post where I was told to be consistent, it is not that I tried a technique for 2-3 days and it failed so I moved on, I know my child is only human and any change to routine is a learning curve for him it is just I would try it for 4-6 weeks and it would fail, so there is a time you have to call it quits too if something is not working

Thanks for all your replies, they are very appreciated!!

willow tree

oh that is stressful. i really feel for you and we all have different approaches and the little ones have their own personalities.. i would recommend david coleman, i think hes brilliant, you can email sean moncrief.hes on wednesdays, gives great advice,hth.. good luck
it does sound like he gets so frustrated trying to communicate, poor little fella

Kent Brockman

I'll give my 2c for what its worth. Children need to learn that there is consequences their actions . The consequences to doing something bold should be something they do not like.

When my son was aged 4, I was working long hours. One day He had an unmerciful tantrum the likes of which I had never wittnessed from any child. My wife told me to ignore it and it was a regular occurrance while I was at work.

I stood back for 40mins while my wife tried bold corner/bold step putting him in his room etc which only made it worse. When she tried to make him stay in the hall he kicked the door repeatedly.

I had enough grabbed him by the arm and slapped him twice (hard) on the cheek of his bottom. He sat on the floor and started to roar. I raised my hand again and said I was counting to 5 and he would get another slap if he didnt behave.
He stopped immediately and went and sat on the bold step by himself. I called him in and said there was no bold step in this house because there is no bold boys here.
He said he was sorry , hugged me and said he would be good. I said I was sorry for slapping but its a daddys job to make sure his children dont grow up to be bold.

I have never hit him since (he is 8 now) but when he acts up I explain camly that its my job to make sure he grows up to be a good person and that if he doesnt stop whatever he is at I will have to slap him.
Once I start the count down 5-4-3-..... he immediately tows the line.

This worked for me.

LadyMayBelle

It sounds like you are having a super tough time OP
You mentioned his speech is delayed.. is he seeing anyone about that yet? Can you get a referral? I have worked with kiddies who are well tiny with learning difficulties and they can manage to point or grab a card..the idea is that it's not about reading or anything and you work with him when he is in a better mood so he knows what they are about. If you manage to get anywhere with a speech and language therapist that will be an option. A lot of it is down to his communication and lack of ability to express his frustrations, I do think..but again only a guess..

Great you have sussed out his 'attention seeking' tantrums...kids are clever
I know a colleague of mine has a little girl aged three, and when she has tantrums, be it on the way to the swimming pool or whatever, she turns the car around and by god there is no way she goes back on her decision and explains it to her little one.

Maybe someone can advise you on how to manage those DART/Bus nightmares,

Really tough times you have

Ayla

My youngest (21 months) has started something similar recently but not quite as severe as the OP (god I hope it doesn't go there! :eek:)

I know my daughter's tantrums originate from being frustrated & am trying to head them off by keeping the communication open. Can one of the posters who suggested the "mood cards" provide any more info or a link to where I can get some? This idea interests me, and because she understands very clearly what we're saying I think it may help her communicate back.

Also, OP, have you considered the idea of baby sign language? Even just very basic signs (similar to the mood cards?). That way even if your son's speech is coming on slowly he can still "talk" to you.

yellowlabrador

My daughter had terrible tantrums at the same age. It was pure frustration.
What I started doing was telling her in advance what we were going to do that day. I also always kept the afternoon free, and we had fun activities. So she knew we'd be going to the park, or baking cakes, or visiting a friend etc. A regular routine is also important at that age, mealtimes, bedtimes, little rituals like reading a book, maybe a special song to sing when going for a walk etc. also helps. Distraction also helps, ie' let's count all the blue cars on the way to the shop etc.'
The thing is, at that age, they know they can wind you up to the extent that you might give in to their whim. The other day a friend of mine with a 2 year old son was in tears, because he wouldn't come out with her. He wouldn't get in the car, he wouldn't walk, he wouldn't go in the buggy. She got more and more frazzled and he was nearly fitting with anger, holding his breath, screaming.
Grandad stepped in, and babysat, but of course then he wanted to go with his mamy. My advice was to stay calm, and decide what issue was the most important. She could have nipped the tantrum in the bud by postponing her trip by 20 mins, using the naughty step, rather than let the tantrum develop to such an extent. The trip was not that important, it could have been done at any time, instead both were exhausted.

LadyMayBelle

Ayla: any of these really:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=feelings+cards+children&x=0&y=0

http://www.castlehill-p.schools.nsw.edu.au/Family,%20Body,%20Feelings%20and%20Senses.pdf

http://www.kidslikeme.co.uk/emotions-cue-cards-i6545.html

I use the blobs but they are for older children, maybe 6-10. Try get ones of children's faces, if they would interest your kid a bit more..or alternatively, make some.

John Mason

Ayla wrote: »

Can one of the posters who suggested the "mood cards" provide any more info or a link to where I can get some? This idea interests me, and because she understands very clearly what we're saying I think it may help her communicate back.

get disposable paper plates and paint them yourself, you could get your daughter to help you. stick lollipop sticks on the them

you could have happy, sad, angry,upset, hungry faces etc.

Ayla

Thanks all - I was thinking to make them myself just needed some design ideas (I'm not the most creative!) Will try them this weekend

stovelid

hoodwinked wrote: »

EDIT: just noticed in your title you say bold child, please don't call him a bold child, i cant remember where i read/saw it, but it is supposedly really important you don't tell a child they are bold, its their actions are bold not them, i think i read it can be really damaging.

Telling a child they're naughty is damaging eh?

Sleepy

Have you two tiers of punishment OP?

One level e.g. being ignored / bold step for being bold and another e.g. no television for the day / teddy going up on the shelf for acting up when being reprimanded?

LadyMayBelle

stovelid wrote: »

Telling a child they're naughty is damaging eh?

No necessarily but possibly. A child scribbling on a wall is doing something fun in his mind but his action is going to cause upset to someone..he isn't bold but what he did is naughty.. action and the child are different.. even if he is doing it 'intentionally to get attention'..that's not him being being 'naughty' is it?

Only a crazy personw would be able to keep up minding their wording in front of their child all the time but it's worth keeping it in mind.

stovelid

LadyMayBelle wrote: »

N

Only a crazy personw would be able to keep up minding their wording in front of their child all the time

.

metrovelvet

stovelid wrote: »

Telling a child they're naughty is damaging eh?

Yeah it can be, depending on the level of sensitivity of the child.

Kids think 'im good just because I exist,' which is lovely, its innocent.

So, without corrupting an essential [I AM] sense of themselves, it is recommended you say 'GOOD JOB' instead of 'GOOD BOY OR GOOD GIRL.' Same goes for derogatory comments too, it should reflect the deed not the essence of who the child is.

I hate supernanny and I hate the bold step, I think it's humilating and they get so upset they have lost the sense of what is going on. Sometimes nothing works for a while.

Sometimes just explaining things works too. But they have short memories so ....


Re train journeys: Your son is only young and boys are active. I spent 6 hours on a transatlantic with an 18 mos old walking up and down the aisle. Seriously. No wailing, crying or nothing, but I had to keep him occupied. For trains, you have to keep them occupied and also let them walk, and walk with them.

My son had delayed speech too, but he was always able to understand so that helped and good at communicating in other ways.

Distract, distract,distract, distract.

Every kid is different though, there are some kids you can negotiate with and there are some kids you cannot give into once or you are doomed. Only you know your child well enough to decide which camp he falls into.

mariebeth

OP, I don't mean to alarm you, but your post is sending off warning signals to me of autism. Autism is a problem with communication, I recently did 10 weeks work experience in a school for children with autism, and a lot of them exhibited behaviours such as the high pitched scream or pulling apart things. With the delay in communication I personally would be worried, and I would suggest asking your gp for advice on getting your son assessed, and maybe getting speech and language therapy if you can. I know 10 weeks work placement doesn't make me an expert, and I don't want to alarm you, just to make you aware that there might be another cause of his behaviour rather than being 'bold'

wolfpawnat

metrovelvet wrote: »

Re train journeys: Your son is only young and boys are active. I spent 6 hours on a transatlantic with an 18 mos old walking up and down the aisle. Seriously. No wailing, crying or nothing, but I had to keep him occupied. For trains, you have to keep them occupied and also let them walk, and walk with them.

My son had delayed speech too, but he was always able to understand so that helped and good at communicating in other ways.

Distract, distract,distract, distract.

Every kid is different though, there are some kids you can negotiate with and there are some kids you cannot give into once or you are doomed. Only you know your child well enough to decide which camp he falls into.

Sadly I cannot do this with him, he runs up and down the aisles causing more irritation to other passengers and he is still too young to last more than 5 min with toys and books (believe me I have tried ) He is one of the children that will test you and knows that he can shame you into not being as strict in public!

mariebeth wrote: »

OP, I don't mean to alarm you, but your post is sending off warning signals to me of autism. Autism is a problem with communication, I recently did 10 weeks work experience in a school for children with autism, and a lot of them exhibited behaviours such as the high pitched scream or pulling apart things. With the delay in communication I personally would be worried, and I would suggest asking your gp for advice on getting your son assessed, and maybe getting speech and language therapy if you can. I know 10 weeks work placement doesn't make me an expert, and I don't want to alarm you, just to make you aware that there might be another cause of his behaviour rather than being 'bold'

He has been assessed and he is perfect and even advanced in all areas except talking. He is too good at telling you what he wants without talking so it is not an issue, just stop giving him what he wants straight away and make him work to get it (try and say the word a few times). He is far from autistic according to the consultant, he went in to her office, went over, and sat on her lap and had a full "conversation" with her (which was hilarious), She dismissed it after about 5 minutes when he was also trying to play with the other kids

January

Ah sure I could have told you that the little maggot is not autistic... I love how he tries to have the conversations when we're in the play centre

It's just a lot of perseverance and patience!

metrovelvet

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Sadly I cannot do this with him, he runs up and down the aisles causing more irritation to other passengers and he is still too young to last more than 5 min with toys and books (believe me I have tried ) He is one of the children that will test you and knows that he can shame you into not being as strict in public!

I dont think he is too young to last more than 5 mons with books and toys. He just sounds not that interested in them.

Is he only like this in public? If he knows he is shaming you, the answer is in not being ashamed. Give him a scolding in public. Or only practise at home what you are willing to do in public.

cynder

Been there done that, now his receiving behavioural management from ceis. My lads speech receptive/phonological and expressive are in the 1st percentile. His understanding and communication is 100% the cause. You have to find a way past that barrier. scolding him wont work , he doesn't understand it. his looking for a reaction and he gets one even if its a bad reaction like you scolding him, each child is different, if i was you i would talk to your PHN and request an assesment of need be carried out by the early intervention services.

CK2010

if his tantrums are about being told no to something you could try introducing what i do- i think he may be a little young yet for it to make a difference but it will be a good habit to be in as he gets older.

the way it works is if shes asking for something and i say no she'll get annoyed at me because to her im just saying no without understanding her need/want for it- im dismissing her straight out and so she has a tantrum to make me see how she feels ie. 'I WANT I WANT' :rolleyes:

so what i do is if she asks for a toy in a shop il say something like 'that is a nice toy and i know you'd like to have it but mammy has no money today' or something along those lines to make it clear to him that 1) you've heard what they're asking for 2) you know why they're asking and 3) the reason why you're saying no.

obviously its a bit tedious and not applicable to every situation but i find that when i actually meet her half way and take the time to make her realise im on the same page as her she desnt seem to feel like a tantrum is needed to make her point of view be known. its good to start it early on because sometimes we forget that kids dont always have the logic to understand that we know how they feel, so we have to make it really clear so they dont feel frustrated.

at the end of the day though every parent has their own way of doing things with each child, what works for one family wont for another and sometimes one technique whch seems great for mammy isnt necessarily best for the child. its just about finding what works for both of you.

my girl is now old enough to be warned by counting from 3. neither of us have ever stated what happens when i finish counting down but because it works for us we've never needed to find out!! :pac:

hope you get it sorted soon though whatever way you find works.
also, alot of people i know are big fans of distraction which is fine if your child is very young but once my girl was old enough to be aware of her own behaviour i always preferred to deal with the issue at hand and not put it aside for the sake of a moments peace. like i said though thats just me.