How to scold a very bold child

Irish_Elect_Eng

CK2010 wrote: »

my girl is now old enough to be warned by counting from 3. neither of us have ever stated what happens when i finish counting down but because it works for us we've never needed to find out!! :pac:

I laughed when I read this, we did the same with ours.....

But then came the day when I overheard my eldest (8) explaining to the the youngest (3) "If Dad finishes counting and you are not good he will sell you to the man from Tesco"

So to avoid having them hiding in terror when the poor Tesco On-line Delivery Guy, I had to make up some real punishments.

Ayla

It's like when we go in a shop w/ fragile things & tell our eldest (4.5) that she has to put her hands behind her back b/c if anything breaks we'll have to sell her to pay for it. She knows we don't really mean it, and it probably sounds bad to anyone else, but it gets the point across. :D

cynder

I doubt very much reasoning will work, due to lack of comprehension, visual clues were inly just introduced to my guy now age 4 and a half due to lack of understanding. Routine helps even though our house is very spontaneous, preschool has been godsend.

Trying to explain why your saying no can result in a meltdown, your just prolonging their agony. Distraction helps and sometimes picking them up and doing a runner.


My guy has come on leaps and bounds, my main issue now is with him absconding.

wolfpawnat

grindelwald wrote: »

Been there done that, now his receiving behavioural management from ceis. My lads speech receptive/phonological and expressive are in the 1st percentile. His understanding and communication is 100% the cause. You have to find a way past that barrier. scolding him wont work , he doesn't understand it. his looking for a reaction and he gets one even if its a bad reaction like you scolding him, each child is different, if i was you i would talk to your PHN and request an assesment of need be carried out by the early intervention services.

I did, she feels that at 2 years and 4 months, not talking is not a problem. SO nothing I can do, I have tried her and the GP and both don't seem to think it is a problem.

lgc2010

You must be worn out, giving out can tire you out so much! I think you should get a second opinion on your childs speech, my son is 3 and and 2 and 4 months he had a good grasp of english, getting a second opinion would maybe help.
My nephew is 13 and wen he was the same age as your little one, he was exactly the same, my sister struggled to cope and could never bring him anywhere, she kept going back to the doctor/health nurse and they made her feel like she was a nuisance. It cotinued for 2 years and wen he went to school she got to talk to the vice principal who was also the special needs teacher, she expressed her worry an explained the letters she had written to try get help etc, he did an assesment and agreed that his speech was bad and understandin at that. he is now in a better school an was diagnosed with adhd, and is doing great, like any other child but learning more than he wud have done in a mainstream school an my sister could relax a bit more.
I am not saying that your son has adhd or anything of the sort but what I am trying to say is never take the first no you get from a doc as final, it should always be double checked.
Your should be ready for playschool so keep an eye on his progress,like potty training etc.
You should also check out rollercoaster.ie, they give detailed assesmnents as to where your child should be at a certain age.
Good luck!

cynder

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I did, she feels that at 2 years and 4 months, not talking is not a problem. SO nothing I can do, I have tried her and the GP and both don't seem to think it is a problem.

GO back to the PHN and demand the assessment of need. Tell her she is not qualified to make the diagnoses. Insist on it, say your not leaving without the referral/assessment of need.

wolfpawnat

grindelwald wrote: »

GO back to the PHN and demand the assessment of need. Tell her she is not qualified to make the diagnoses. Insist on it, say your not leaving without the referral/assessment of need.

It was the Speech and Language Therapist that said that, not the PHN, sorry I should have specified!

cynder

then go to the phn and request the assessment of need!

your guy sound like how my guy was, my guy now sees the speech therapist, early intervention educator and the psychologist, he still has issues but with all the help he is getting he is coming on a lot.

If you tell the PHN that your concerned and that you want him assessed to see if there is anything else behind it rather than just speech, she will refer you and you can fill out the assessment of need. You will need all this info when your child starts school, he will have to have both speech and psychological assessments (for resource hours and possible sna if he is a danger to himself) and also if you send him to preschool and he needs a preschool assistant the only way to get it is through the early intervention services. The SLP wont be able to get him a preschool assistant (as far as i know, i might be wrong).



A child can be referred to the early intervention services when displaying difficulties in 2 disciplines, yours is in both behavioral and speech and language. The sooner you get on top of it the better, there is a speech and language course that i did as well it was the hannen more than words course, you might find that helpful.

also try introducing sign language, my fella made up his own signs (which in some cases were hard to interpret), he would point to his hand rapidly if he wanted something, i would say show me and he would bring me to what he wanted, (he didn't point till he was 2.5 years so finding what he wanted was sometimes a nightmare). Use only 1 or 2 words when talking to him, dont overload him with words he just wont understand.

Use pictures if he will look at them, to find out what he wants (my fella would not and would rip books and pages to pieces, he had no attention span what so ever, he was a wild boy)

Its a long road and i didn't see real progress with my fella until just before his 4th birthday, form ages 2-3.5 i saw ZERO progress, preschool worked wonders but only since his 4th birthday before that he was a nightmare in there, he learnt the routine and his words are starting to come and he has settled (the preschool also work around him to a certain degree so there is flexibility), he starts big school in september and he is going to be a nightmare again, but im sure after xmas he will start to come around to it, his attention span is going to be a major issue along with absconding. he due for assessment in jan to see if main stream school is working for him or if he needs to go to a special school, also then will we know more about the ADHD factor that has been hanging over our heads since he was 2.


How is your sons attention?

Ayla

Out of fairness, OP, in your original post you mentioned that the horrific behaviour has been over the last 10 days. Before you go to hell & beyond getting every assessment under the sun, think - has your son been this way from his early days, or has it only suddenly appeared?

Children are very behavioural from day 1, and although *how* they respond & what they respond to will change over time, if there is a baddy in the background surely you'd have signs over the last 2.4 years?

If you've had a niggling feeling for the last year or so, then by all means proceed with getting assessed & obtain whatever support is out there. But if this is only rearing its head now, perhaps it could - possibly - just be a stage. I personally know kids who didn't speak a word until they were over 3, then suddenly they started speaking (and in full sentences!). "Delayed" speech doesn't necessarily indicate a bigger issue.

cynder

Ayla wrote: »

Children are very behavioural from day 1, and although *how* they respond & what they respond to will change over time, if there is a baddy in the background surely you'd have signs over the last 2.4 years?

.

We only copped on to how bad our lad was after his 2 year check up with the PHN, and then things got worse and worse until he was 3 and 3/4 when things started to calm down.

If you can see signs at day 1 then all kids would be diagnosed with autism/adhd after birth or at 1 or at 2, but it doesn't work like that. some kids are not diagnosed with autism till they are 4 or over and most kids are not diagnosed with adhd till they are over 5. (not that im saying your son has either, im saying that behavior is not that obvious in a 1 year old or 2 year old)



when you accept you child has an issue the best bet it to reach out into every avenue to get the best for your child, the longer you leave it the worst it will get. Why oh why do they call it early intervention, its not a case of just ignore it and it will go away.

A child with speech issues has many things going on, none of us here are professionals, im only giving advice based on my own experience with a child with a severe speech and language delay that had autistic characteristics and adhd characteristics.

The best bet is to get assessments done if they come back and say nothing is wrong, then fantastic! you can put your mind to rest. at least you know and its not in the back of your head nagging at you. A 1 year old does not throw a tantrum like a 2 year old.

Ayla

wolfpawnat wrote: »

He has been assessed and he is perfect and even advanced in all areas except talking. He is too good at telling you what he wants without talking so it is not an issue, just stop giving him what he wants straight away and make him work to get it (try and say the word a few times). He is far from autistic according to the consultant, he went in to her office, went over, and sat on her lap and had a full "conversation" with her (which was hilarious), She dismissed it after about 5 minutes when he was also trying to play with the other kids

Grindlewad, perhaps it would be helpful to read all of the OP's posts.

cynder

but what im am saying is that the early intervention team can help with behavioural issues and speech, (but you need the assessment of need first) or of course you could just get help with speech and ignore bad behavior and see what happens!


Im not saying he should be assessed for asd or adhd my above post was saying that things are not clear cut at the age of 1. The older they get the clearer the situation becomes. also if the assessment for need is submitted any other assesments that need to be carried out further down the line will be done within the time limit, where as if your on the public waiting list it could be well over a year.

gargleblaster

OP I would like to offer a few suggestions, if you haven't tried them already.

First is removing the source of the frustration. You mentioned reaching for a fourth biscuit. Perhaps you might try keeping the biscuits hidden away, and when it's time for him to have some, only give him a few on a plate. That way there's no way for him to be tempted by a whole box or jar of them close by. Like in someone's stones in the road example, it's not always as simple as that, but when it is it's a very easy way to avoid blowups.

Another thing that worked brilliantly for me was distraction. Once I saw the first warning signs of frustration I would suggest we go outside and play, or offer to read a book to them, or some other activity (fingerpainting, modeling clay, etc.) Setting these things up where you're close by to watch and participate could work wonders on changing his focus entirely.

As for tantrums on the bus, I would simply say "this isn't the playground" as a means of explaining why the behavior isn't acceptable. He is very young but he will catch on. And some parents might balk at this, but I would probably also offer a special treat for good behavior. And I would also shower the child with affection and praise after the first peaceful trip.

It sounds like he might be just getting very frustrated. Does he have any control over things? I mean control that he knows about? Sometimes kids just want to feel like they're in control, so if he's not aware, maybe you could try making it clear. Offering him choices where he can make them (a few options for him to pick - snacks, clothes, activities) so that he can decide a few things for himself and feel like he's 'in charge' of a few things at least.

He sounds like a handful, but you'll get there. Good luck!

CK2010

grindelwald wrote: »

I doubt very much reasoning will work, due to lack of comprehension, visual clues were inly just introduced to my guy now age 4 and a half due to lack of understanding. Routine helps even though our house is very spontaneous, preschool has been godsend.

Trying to explain why your saying no can result in a meltdown, your just prolonging their agony. Distraction helps and sometimes picking them up and doing a runner.


My guy has come on leaps and bounds, my main issue now is with him absconding.

the reasoning wasnt the main part of that though, its the reiterating that matters.
repeating what your child is saying to you so they dont feel like they're not being heard. so they know you are listening. by repeating what they want/say its reassuring them that you know what they are saying to you.

its a subtle way of crossing one thing off the list of frustrations by getting over the communication barrier involved in tantrums (which are usually the childs way of trying to make themselves heard) so by you letting them know they are being heard it reduces the reason for the tantrum.

the reasoning only comes into play when they're older.

wolfpawnat

gargleblaster wrote: »

First is removing the source of the frustration. You mentioned reaching for a fourth biscuit. Perhaps you might try keeping the biscuits hidden away, and when it's time for him to have some, only give him a few on a plate. That way there's no way for him to be tempted by a whole box or jar of them close by. Like in someone's stones in the road example, it's not always as simple as that, but when it is it's a very easy way to avoid blowups.

I have the biscuits in a press that is locked. He has nearly broken the childproof clasp completely and if he knows they are there, he will do everything he can to drag you over to the press, he will throw things at the press and throw a tantrum in front of it, knowing that what he wants is inside it ( I swear to God, he has a nose like a bloodhound!)

gargleblaster wrote: »

Another thing that worked brilliantly for me was distraction. Once I saw the first warning signs of frustration I would suggest we go outside and play, or offer to read a book to them, or some other activity (fingerpainting, modeling clay, etc.) Setting these things up where you're close by to watch and participate could work wonders on changing his focus entirely.

I try to, but sometimes I am doing things around the house and cannot just facilitate every fit he decides he wants to pull!

gargleblaster wrote: »

As for tantrums on the bus, I would simply say "this isn't the playground" as a means of explaining why the behavior isn't acceptable. He is very young but he will catch on. And some parents might balk at this, but I would probably also offer a special treat for good behavior. And I would also shower the child with affection and praise after the first peaceful trip.

I give him treats daily (one a day, when he behaves) but I say "we are indoors, we cannot yell, it is not nice for other people"

gargleblaster wrote: »

It sounds like he might be just getting very frustrated. Does he have any control over things? I mean control that he knows about? Sometimes kids just want to feel like they're in control, so if he's not aware, maybe you could try making it clear. Offering him choices where he can make them (a few options for him to pick - snacks, clothes, activities) so that he can decide a few things for himself and feel like he's 'in charge' of a few things at least.

He chooses most things he does, t-shirts, socks, food, etc.

cynder

CK2010 wrote: »

the reasoning wasnt the main part of that though, its the reiterating that matters.
repeating what your child is saying to you so they dont feel like they're not being heard. so they know you are listening. by repeating what they want/say its reassuring them that you know what they are saying to you.

its a subtle way of crossing one thing off the list of frustrations by getting over the communication barrier involved in tantrums (which are usually the childs way of trying to make themselves heard) so by you letting them know they are being heard it reduces the reason for the tantrum.

the reasoning only comes into play when they're older.

Funny i was told by the psychologist that talking makes it worse, just infuriates them! im to give my fella hugs to calm him, once his past a certain point in the tantrum its pointless talking, in the very beginning to prevent the tantrum yes but not once the tantrum has started.

Each child is different what works for one wont work for another.... thankfully its working for me:D but then my guy didn't have tantrums he had meltdowns there is a big difference, we dont get them every day now, once every 2 weeks.

cynder

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I have the biscuits in a press that is locked. He has nearly broken the childproof clasp completely and if he knows they are there, he will do everything he can to drag you over to the press, he will throw things at the press and throw a tantrum in front of it, knowing that what he wants is inside it ( I swear to God, he has a nose like a bloodhound!)

.

Took my guy to age 3.5 to understand NO MORE! His quite good now in that regard, it does get better, another year and there will be a big difference.

Ayla

OP, would you say that this behaviour has been going on for long or (as said in your original post) has it only reached a head in the last couple of weeks? Does your gut tell you there's something else going on, or are you looking for coping mechanisms for getting through this stage?

CK2010

grindelwald wrote: »

Funny i was told by the psychologist that talking makes it worse, just infuriates them! im to give my fella hugs to calm him, once his past a certain point in the tantrum its pointless talking, in the very beginning to prevent the tantrum yes but not once the tantrum has started.

Each child is different what works for one wont work for another.... thankfully its working for me:D but then my guy didn't have tantrums he had meltdowns there is a big difference, we dont get them every day now, once every 2 weeks.

i dont think you're understanding what im saying- its a technique to prevent the little ones tantrums tantrums. by communicating and reiterating back to them what they are wantingor whatever, so that frustration (due to perceived lack of understanding on mums behalf) doesnt cause a tantrum. its not reasoning or trying to talk them out of one its so they dont feel the need to have a tantrum in the first place.

talking during a tantrum is pointless yes, but like i said i find that so is trying to distract a child from one because its basically rewarding their behaviour IMO (if i wail X amount of times il get a nice big hug from mammy and maybe some extra play time too). but as i said i dont have the misfortune of dealing with tantrums on a regular basis so you have to do what works for your family and what gives you the most peace! :pac:

cynder

CK2010 wrote: »

i dont think you're understanding what im saying- its a technique to prevent the little ones tantrums tantrums. by communicating and reiterating back to them what they are wantingor whatever, so that frustration (due to perceived lack of understanding on mums behalf) doesnt cause a tantrum. its not reasoning or trying to talk them out of one its so they dont feel the need to have a tantrum in the first place.

talking during a tantrum is pointless yes, but like i said i find that so is trying to distract a child from one because its basically rewarding their behaviour IMO (if i wail X amount of times il get a nice big hug from mammy and maybe some extra play time too). but as i said i dont have the misfortune of dealing with tantrums on a regular basis so you have to do what works for your family and what gives you the most peace! :pac:

did you not see the part, where i said it will work to prevent a tantrum (but also to add in some cases only)

There is a difference between a meltdown down and a tantrum. a meltdown needs hugs a tantrum does not. Distraction is not a reward, my fella refused to go into preschool, he wailed the place down tried to abscond and went in to a full blown meltdown, i got him into the cloak room and let him hide under the coats until him calmed down enough, during this time a sang nursery rhymes, he crawled out inch by inch and lay his head on my lap, i then talked about what i like doing in preschool, like lego and sand, he got and idea went in happy out, that was over 45 mins, but he went in happy, that didn't work first when we left the house or when we got there, it did after him calmed down.

Since then we have had no more issues with going to preschool. if my guy has a meltdown im to move him to a quiet area and let him work through it, plenty of hugs and rocking. Cant do that in a shop so i leave the shop and go home.

The preschool assistant that my son has also does the same thing as i did, he also has a blanket for when his stressed. After all our hard work he can go a week without a tuntrum at school.

wolfpawnat

Ayla wrote: »

OP, would you say that this behaviour has been going on for long or (as said in your original post) has it only reached a head in the last couple of weeks? Does your gut tell you there's something else going on, or are you looking for coping mechanisms for getting through this stage?

He was always a more challenging child, by which I mean he always pushes limits, always is curious meaning he causes messes and nearly hurting himself and was always one for a few tantrums, but over the last 2 weeks he has had tantrums for every small thing. He will not remain where he is told, usually we only have a 2 min long argument about this, but not recently. I fear having to bring him on public transport now!

He is calming down a bit again, but mainly because nana is giving in to some demands, leaving me with the job of getting him to cop on again into his old and more realistic routine!

Oh and Grindewald, we had something like that once too, not wanting to go, crying the place sown, I just got him a little school bag and told him he was going to school like daddy. And the creche did the same, asking him was he happy to be going to school? Now he runs in the door and is straight over to the other kids happy out!!!

cynder

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Oh and Grindewald, we had something like that once too, not wanting to go, crying the place sown, I just got him a little school bag and told him he was going to school like daddy. And the creche did the same, asking him was he happy to be going to school? Now he runs in the door and is straight over to the other kids happy out!!!

If that had worked for my guy, his comprehension wasnt that good so he couldnt understand, but he has to bring something with him every a toy of his choice, when he starts school in september he cant do that. September is going to bring a lot of challenges but im sure by feb he will have settled down a bit, i think i going to be called into the school at least twice a week during the first few months.......


At least you fella has good comprehension, thats half the battle.

Morag

wolfpawnat do you not have a set of baby reigns?

wolfpawnat wrote: »

He chooses most things he does, t-shirts, socks, food, etc.

I think that maybe you could have given him too much control at too young an age.
We do like to treat our kids as little people but, they are not our equals, we are the ones in charge.
If a child thinks they are our equal or worse that we are there to be at their beck and call, then it's
can be setting up both parent and child for a lot of misery.

Yes 2 and half to 3 and half is the 'willfull' stage but as hard as it is to come down on them like a tonne of brick and be a hard arse, if you don't they will think they can rule the roost for the rest of their lives.

Give him less choices, take back the control, be consistent and while it will be a very hard 2/3 weeks you cant' break before he does.
Most kids go through patches like this when they be come more independent, had it with mine at this age, at 7 and again at 11, I know that it will happens again around 15/16 but my house, my rules, I am the adult/parent and certain behaviours are just not acceptable.

I know it's heart breaking but other parents have been there, you just have to persist.

wolfpawnat

Sharrow wrote: »

wolfpawnat do you not have a set of baby reigns?



I think that maybe you could have given him too much control at too young an age.
We do like to treat our kids as little people but, they are not our equals, we are the ones in charge.
If a child thinks they are our equal or worse that we are there to be at their beck and call, then it's
can be setting up both parent and child for a lot of misery.

Yes 2 and half to 3 and half is the 'willfull' stage but as hard as it is to come down on them like a tonne of brick and be a hard arse, if you don't they will think they can rule the roost for the rest of their lives.

Give him less choices, take back the control, be consistent and while it will be a very hard 2/3 weeks you cant' break before he does.
Most kids go through patches like this when they be come more independent, had it with mine at this age, at 7 and again at 11, I know that it will happens again around 15/16 but my house, my rules, I am the adult/parent and certain behaviours are just not acceptable.

I know it's heart breaking but other parents have been there, you just have to persist.

I am a very harsh parent, I don't mollycoddle and I only give hugs if he has a really bad fall. Seriously I have been called cruel because I have told him to just get up after a fall.

I let him choose things that are unimportant. I eat after my son is gone to bed at night so I see nothing wrong with him choosing his dinner. It is only every one of two options, same as his clothes. Two options are given, it is either one or the other. Some control is good, but I do not feel the need for him to dictate himself to me. As you may read in my previous posts. My attitude to his tantrums is for him to cop on, not for me to buckle to him.

I had reigns for him, but they were causing him to not learn to stand straight but more to pull like a husky on a sled. I cannot put them on him on trains as he has meltdowns from them while on one.

I have started to contemplate buying him his own ticket and reserving him a seat on trains. I have the "pleasure" of bringing him on one again on Friday. I will be stocking up on toys for him to play with and hopefully this may make things easier, though I will have to figure out how to keep him in his buggy on one too for napping reasons!

Sleepy

Have you tried taking him on the bus/train to somewhere he wants to go (e.g. Zoo) and then turning around for home when he starts misbehaving?

A right waste of money on tickets I know but two experiences of me turning the car around and going home from a planned trip to the playground taught our little fella how to sit quietly in the car. Might be worth a try?

On the biscuits thing, I'd treat each tantrum over wanting more with a removal of the biscuits from the house for the rest of the week (i.e. hide them in a different press). When they're "All gone" he'll realise a tantrum isn't worth throwing and will gradually learn to relate his tantrums to the biscuits being "all gone".

Morag

Sounds like you are doing the best things possible. Hopefully he will grow out of it soon.
I got told I was too strict on mine when they were that age, but it's paid of.
Two things to choose between is the best way to do that but, even if you are the one controlling the two choices, he may not see it that way and think he is the one in charge.

When we took ours on the train at that age, it was a case of planning a head and having something different for them every 20/30 mins, I still do that to this day, from snacks to pen and paper, card games. As loaded with salt and sugars as the lunchables are they used to get us at least 30 mins of them eating and playing with them quietly enough.

willow tree

our children are our equals! they deserve respect and lots of love and hugs to grow into secure adults who will respect and love themselves... we are here to guide and give boundaries... i think you are hitting a brick wall being really strict the two of you are 'banging heads' when this is a difficult time there should be time for fun and encouraging that kind of thing when you can, working on the communication so tantrum can be caught before it happens and distraction can be great... no child wants to be bold, hes frustrated by the sounds of things... good luck with it, its not easy

metrovelvet

You know what, they are also setting their boundaries at this age... and its healthy imo that they do...

Forget about keeping him in the buggy on the train... its impossible. You need to keep him entertained. Its a long journey for a small kid. BRing a dvd player if you have too. I bring books about how trains work, I bring a portable train set with take along trains, [my son is a choo choo holic though so it helps there]. I bring a small map of Ireland to track and trace the journey. We mark the stops with stickers and stars. It also has pictures of people he knows stuck on various parts of the map. He was a late talker too and this kind of thing worked even before he started talking. I have to spend a lot of time with him walking around the train too, and coaxing him out from under people's seats, but its usually little old ladies - he has a sixth sense for people who will forgive him or think he's funny so that helps. And I have a lionel train hat for him to wear to pretend he's the engineer. It's a whole productiona alright, but it pays off.

Thats also why I dont do these trips unless really necessary. People invite us to 'pop up' to Dublin...I sigh inside...if only they knew the miliraty operations involved.

Have you tried changing the paradigm you are working in? Shift it from a power paradigm to collaborative leadership and respond with empathetic guidance rather than a power struggle? Remember he is learning how to relate to others though you. Maybe that might help?

wolfpawnat

Letting him do what he wants for 3 hours is not an option, as I have to swap trains twice in a journey and when his father isn't with us, we usually have 2 bags with us and his buggy, which is more of a travel system and cannot fold easily so the only option is to keep him in it as he will not stay on my lap either!

I do not have a portable dvd player and I cannot afford to get one either. Also it is really irritating to others to have to listen to Peppa Pig for 3 hours too!

There are plenty of children who will behave for long periods of time in their buggies so it is not an insane concept. I hate having to sound cruel, but he is incapable of staying still outside the buggy so he will have stay in it!

Taxedalot

Even a child of this age has a currency (TV, favourite toy, whatever).

Identify it and remove it when the behaviour gets bad. Bad Behaviour is learned - it can be unlearned too.

Not a child psychologist but father of 5.