Licencing policy issues

Grizzly 45

Hmmm leagality and mandatory and "CS decisions" are betimes poles apart here.Selective legislation or reasoning in favour of the CS is more like..

Silencers are legal under H&S in the UK..Irish CS response "use ear muffs,as passers by need to know where the shots are coming from"

Increase the ammo limit to 500 rounds as per guidelines
Response "Ah sure they are ONLY guidelines"

Want a .22 pistol not on "the list"
The GUIDELINES state thems the only ones and dat's dat!! Now!!

Point is; they will twist it around to suit themselves.:mad:

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Silencers are legal under H&S in the UK..Irish CS response "use ear muffs,as passers by need to know where the shots are coming from"

That was one Superintendent's response. It wasn't a CS, and it's not the norm.

Increase the ammo limit to 500 rounds as per guidelines
Response "Ah sure they are ONLY guidelines"

What guideline said 500 rounds? The commissioner's doesn't say that (it says 500-750, and that's only one of four suggested amounts for different purposes). The only 500 round mention I can think of is the old myth that all europasses have 500 on them (which isn't the case for all europasses - mine certainly doesn't have it).

Want a .22 pistol not on "the list"
The GUIDELINES state thems the only ones and dat's dat!! Now!!

That's one Super, and again, there's the FPU. Out of 167 Supers, there's maybe three or four that cause problems and the AGS have publicly stated on the record that it's the superintendents who are the problem, not the applicants.

Point is; they will twist it around to suit themselves.:mad:

And mine is that if they're going to twist things around, you have to work twice as hard to make sure you've got everything straight.

I mean, you're in a friendly place here, and I happen to agree with you most of the time Grizz - and I've just shown that your entire post wouldn't be worth the breath it'd take to read it out in a court. You know what someone who wasn't on your side would be able to do with your statements? McCarron-v-Kearney is what. And then we wind up with a precedent for refusing licences that weakens everything. And pretty soon, sports are being banned outright, sports equipment is being prohibited from ownership on public safety grounds, and anyone trying to oppose this is easily portrayed by the media as a crackpot and then nobody can support them lest they put their jobs at risk. It's a high beam you're balancing on when you start asking if the Powers That Be have 'lost it', and it's a long, long way down...

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

That was one Superintendent's response. It wasn't a CS, and it's not the norm.

One wonders....It might be only of cases WE have heard here,not the entire non boards cases. Not to mind I suggest a read of the Garda guidelines on the matter.

What guideline said 500 rounds? The commissioner's doesn't say that (it says 500-750, and that's only one of four suggested amounts for different purposes). The only 500 round mention I can think of is the old myth that all europasses have 500 on them (which isn't the case for all europasses - mine certainly doesn't have it).

This is what was written to ME personally by my Super..when my mum put in for 500 rounds for clay shooting...Would you like a copy???:)



That's one Super, and again, there's the FPU. Out of 167 Supers, there's maybe three or four that cause problems and the AGS have publicly stated on the record that it's the superintendents who are the problem, not the applicants.

And whats being done about it?????? Or better still can be done??As these people seem to be able to twist and pervert the law and court orders at their whim!!!Lets be real,you think the cheif comissioner is going to pull in his CS and tell them lads ye are being very naughty because the FPU said ye havent granted a few aul liscenses???Another quater of his CS and supers are looking at packing it in as their pension is going to be affected again..:rolleyes::rolleyes:..As of todays Independant...The fact is these people are LAWS ONTO THEMSELVES!! So a visit from the FPU would be less scary for them than a visit from the local Girl Guides!:mad:
I would say they would want to up those rates for both ranks,to maybe 40 and 50% respectivly..

And mine is that if they're going to twist things around, you have to work twice as hard to make sure you've got everything straight.

I did and it made not the blindest bit of difference sofar...:mad:

I mean, you're in a friendly place here, and I happen to agree with you most of the time Grizz - and I've just shown that your entire post wouldn't be worth the breath it'd take to read it out in a court. You know what someone who wasn't on your side would be able to do with your statements? McCarron-v-Kearney is what. And then we wind up with a precedent for refusing licences that weakens everything. And pretty soon, sports are being banned outright, sports equipment is being prohibited from ownership on public safety grounds, and anyone trying to oppose this is easily portrayed by the media as a crackpot and then nobody can support them lest they put their jobs at risk. It's a high beam you're balancing on when you start asking if the Powers That Be have 'lost it', and it's a long, long way down...

Sparks! Im not even going to go there with your last paragraph...I am dealing with what my personal experiance is of this system..It you want to belive in the sunshine and lollypops world that this system works,or that it is all doom and gloom,[and if you dont mind me saying you swing from robust optisim to total pessimissim at the drop of a hat]... ..Go ahead!!I beg to differ from personal experiance in this last 13 months..

If you want the full gory details I'll PM them to you ,and you will see why I,and no doubt others can say JE Accuse!

Grizzly 45

Victor wrote: »

Is it useful to use separate night vision equipment, possibly on a spotter + shooter basis. there was stuff avaialble for €100 in Lidl - not sure of the quality.

100 euros worth of quality!!:rolleyes::)Minimal quality starts at 400 euros upwards..

bunny shooter

Sparks wrote: »

That was one Superintendent's response. It wasn't a CS, and it's not the norm....

I'm assuming it was mine as per my previous post OR is there another ?

And the rest of what Grizzly describes I've heard also !

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Lets be real

Yes, lets.

Because we see precious little of that when people start yelling about how unfair it all is.

It you want to belive in the sunshine and lollypops world that this system works,or that it is all doom and gloom,[and if you dont mind me saying you swing from robust optisim to total pessimissim at the drop of a hat]

There's no swinging involved Grizzly. I know the system fairly well; I know what's possible and what's likely and what's never going to happen, and I'm optimistic where there's cause and pessimistic where there's cause. But it's not some simple setup, it's complicated and our "side" is not always in the right either. But for some, and you fall into this camp, it's a black-and-white, us-versus-them fight; and those who follow that line of thought do far, far more harm than good in the long term. We have lost so much because of that mode of thinking that it's truly depressing. We could have been shooting pistols in the 90s but for that fight-de-powa mindset. We could still have IPSC shooting today, we could have sports grants and a dozen other things, but we pissed them all away because people were more interested in the fight than in shooting and acted like idiots.

I beg to differ from personal experiance in this last 13 months.

13 months for you. 11 years for me. 11 years of watching our own "side" piss away what they were supposed to be trying to obtain because of some stupid idea that the best way to get it was to get it all at once in some romantic dramatic fight, instead of slowly, patiently, step by step, building on what we had. A complete and total lack of patience. And anytime the few patient people there were had a success, the shouters gathered round to do their best to tear it down. How many examples of that do you need? The NTSA? The NRAI? The ICPSA? The SSAI?

If you want to get what you want in our system Grizzly, give up wanting it today or tomorrow, and start planning to get it over a timescale of years. Because that's the timescale that's required. Until you can do that, you won't ever achieve anything long-term.

Grizzly 45

[

QUOTE=Sparks;72504273]Yes, lets.

Because we see precious little of that when people start yelling about how unfair it all is.

Well,you see thats where our differences of "reality" diverge..I've had this experiance..You have not!Therefore you cant say that this isnt real just because you havent experianced it.

There's no swinging involved Grizzly. I know the system fairly well; I know what's possible and what's likely and what's never going to happen, and I'm optimistic where there's cause and pessimistic where there's cause. But it's not some simple setup, it's complicated and our "side" is not always in the right either.

So do I,and

But for some, and you fall into this camp, it's a black-and-white, us-versus-them fight; and those who follow that line of thought do far, far more harm than good in the long term. We have lost so

Maybe Sparks thats because alot of us have a different and mostly unpleasent experiance with dealing with these people,that maybe,just maybe youshould ask WHY they were shouting and banging the tables???
You might find that there was no other option...And if you think I am a total fight first,last and only,you are sadly mistaken..I try negoiating,dealing,discussing etc,but if you dont even get an acknowledgement of that from your opposition..Whats left but to fight.

You OTOH have this unshakeable belif that the system will play fair,and that with pure logic and pendantism it will function 100% no matter how long it takes..Thats fine in a Lab..95% of the time dealing with real people ,life chucks logic and fairness out the door.

much because of that mode of thinking that it's truly depressing. We could have been shooting pistols in the 90s but for that fight-de-powa mindset.

Cant really comment as at the time for us living outside the Pale,in pre interweb days.It was impossible to find out what was going on up in dublin,bar via word of mouth[99% wrong or embellished] or the ISD and shooting News..about as much info on real situations could be found on the back of a crisp packet..:rolleyes:

We could still have IPSC shooting today, we could have sports grants and a dozen other things,

Doubt it highly..The only good thing that according to most people involved in shooting was that it disbanded itself. I ,personally was trying to get it organised in the late1980s using shotguns here.Even then the shooting bog of Irish indifference didnt want to know about it.I even suggested to IPSA to bring up shotgun shooting as a more pouplar and possible fallback,if the pistol shooting went pear shaped.Which it did.
It was too new for the conserative Irish shooting community and PTB.

but we pissed them all away because people were more interested in the fight than in shooting and acted like idiots.

Oh DUH

13 months for you. 11 years for me. 11 years of watching our own "side" piss away what they were supposed to be trying to obtain because of some stupid idea that the best way to get it was to get it all at once in some romantic dramatic fight, instead of slowly, patiently, step by step, building on what we had. A complete and total lack of patience. And anytime the few patient people there were had a success, the shouters gathered round to do their best to tear it down. How many examples of that do you need? The NTSA? The NRAI? The ICPSA? The SSAI? [/QUOTE[]

You mean 35 years for me!!!:p
13 months in the latest firearms aqusition!! With five years of pre court ,negoiating,dealing,compromising..Which amounted to me going to court anyway..TWICE..
Been around alot longer,but maybe not as active,as I dont live in "the Pale"where 99.9% of decisions are made in this great little country of ours.
I have seen the worst of 30 years of what a totalitarian state can and will do to a shooting community,and I have seen enough "appeasers and the time isnt right types"in that 30 years do nothing..It finally started moving when a "table banger" got up and actually did somthing to get the ball rolling..Yes,we might have lost things,to be expected...They might be regained,or not,or might be totally irrevelant one day..As you say it is a long war,and especially if it is as I look at it a gurellia war..One of the cheif tenets is ground may be gained or lost,so long as the struggle remains constant,it will win eventually.

If you want to get what you want in our system Grizzly, give up wanting it today or tomorrow, and start planning to get it over a timescale of years. Because that's the timescale that's required. Until you can do that, you won't ever achieve anything long-term.

Granny,teach eggs,suck,dont..Construct a sentence from that for me.:p

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

You might find that there was no other option

Like McCarron?

You OTOH have this unshakeable belif that the system will play fair

Bull. I just know that when the systems' not playing fair, getting mad and yelling and getting things wrong only makes things worse.
I also know that it doesn't just make things worse for the person involved directly, but for everyone else as well.
Take McCarron's case. Guy does everything wrong - has a row with the super in the station, cites "my mates have one" as his good reason for a firearms licence, and so on; goes right to the supreme court and loses. And now, there's a precedent that hits the rest of us. And who pays the costs? A high court case and a supreme court appeal isn't a cheap undertaking.

Yes, there are cases we have to fight, and some are best fought in the courts. But we're not fighting them. And we'll pay for that...

Doubt it highly..The only good thing that according to most people involved in shooting was that it disbanded itself.

Some of those same folks who're so sure it was a bad thing were shooting it themselves. And some, when told that it was risky to jump right to IPSC shooting instead of building up to it and letting the AGS get used to us having pistols after 30 years of not seeing them, answered "well, if we're banned, I'll have had some fun first", and no, that's not paraphrasing.

Whereas if we'd gone more slowly, worked on bullseye shooting first and built up the pistol community in size and strength, we'd probably still have it today.

It finally started moving when a "table banger" got up and actually did somthing to get the ball rolling.

(a) He wasn't a table banger;
(b) He's publicly derided the table bangers who've claimed credit for his case;
(c) The main reason it led to the drop of the no-pistols policy by the AGS was the row between the AGS and McDowell (that's why the AGS policy was dropped but the DoJ one wasn't for several more years).
(d) The main reason we kept anything was because of a lot of quiet hard unsexy work that wasn't done by table bangers.

And for the Nth time, court cases can't be used as a stick to beat the government with. Take (again, for the Nth time, but sooner or later someone's going to twig to this...) Dunne - huge effort, huge expense, a win in the High Court, a further win in the Supreme Court... and then all overturned with one paragraph thrown into the back of the next available Bill.

Which went on to be expanded to the biggest bent-over-the-table session our sport ever went through in the 2006 Act, which was a direct result - and it was publicly stated that that was the case - of the efforts of those banging the tables (some of whom then came on here and into other media to defend the '06 Act as a great step forward for shooting).

Yes, we have fights we need to fight. But those aren't best fought by banging on tables like this was some made-for-tv movie. They need patience and competence and dedication and calm hard work.

so long as the struggle remains constant,it will win eventually

So long as you think of it that way, we'll never "win". It's not a war Grizzly, any more than headbutting a brick wall is a fight. It's a negotiation with a larger group, and we've next to nothing to "give" in that negotiation.

That is the reality of this situation.

Spunk84

I know theres no backseat modding but what in gods name is the above got to do with New Zealand lamping tragedy (lampers beware)?

I wont tell you again Sparks!!!!!!! Now back on subject! Like baby sitting simple folk

Sparks

Fair point - thread split out.

bunny shooter

Spunk84 wrote: »

I know theres no backseat modding but what in gods name is the above got to do with New Zealand lamping tragedy (lampers beware)?

I wont tell you again Sparks!!!!!!! Now back on subject! Like baby sitting simple folk

PMSL