Parents want to get a rescue dog but keep it outside...advice needed

mosi

I've just found out that my parent's 13 year old collie/lab passed on about two weeks ago (they didn't tell me as they didn't want to upset me at exam time). She lived as an outdoor dog with their other collie, where they slept in a kennel in a large stone shed with a radio playing. The remaining collie won't be brought to live indoors for two main reasons. He frets a lot when he's inside for an extended period. He also doesn't get on with their JRT who lives indoors. BTW, he gets a long walk in the woods twice a day and has access to a large secure yard.
They want to get another dog as they feel that he is lonely without his friend. They have no intention of buying a dog, and would like to get a medium to large dog aged between 4 and 6, female, from either a rescue or a pound. My dad is almost 70 but he is very active (the walks are up steep hills and he jogs as well).

However, they are talking about this dog sleeping outside as well as they don't think it would be fair to bring one dog in and leave the other out.
I can see the logic with this but am just not comfortable with dogs been left to sleep outside...my two are in the bed with me every night. I tried telling them that rescues generally won't home a dog to sleep outside unless it is one that seems to prefer that...and I imagine that such dogs are few and far between anyway. They didn't seem fazed though.
I don't know what the best thing to do is here...I'm trying to find some kind of compromise. What is more unfair - to leave one dog outdoors at night and bring the other in, or to bring home a rescue and have it sleeping in the shed when it could have a lovely bed somewhere?
Should I try to convince them to let the newbie sleep inside or should they hold out to find a dog that is deemed suited to be out.

Advice needed as they want me to help them find a suitable dog. Again, I am all for dogs living indoors so am feeling a bit uncomfortable about all this.

Of course they may get back to me in a couple of days having changed their minds about the outdoor thing...they tend to do that type of thing when they sit down and process what they've been told!

Oh_Noes

I'm not sure where you got the idea that most dogs prefer to be inside, I've had literally dozens of dogs of the years and I've found the opposite to be the case.

Usually the only dogs that I'd let sleep inside would be very small ones who are more affected by the cold than average-larger dogs. Dogs like to be outside so that they can bark, go to the toilet, sniff around, keep an eye that the house is protected.

Just to add, letting dogs sleep on your bed is unhygienic and probably psychologically unhealthy for the dogs.

I'm trying to find some kind of compromise. What is more unfair - to leave one dog outdoors at night and bring the other in, or to bring home a rescue and have it sleeping in the shed when it could have a lovely bed somewhere?

Dogs aren't people and their logic doesn't work the same as ours.

mosi

Oh_Noes wrote: »

I'm not sure where you got the idea that most dogs prefer to be inside, I've had literally dozens of dogs of the years and I've found the opposite to be the case.

Usually the only dogs that I'd let sleep inside would be very small ones who are more affected by the cold than average-larger dogs. Dogs like to be outside so that they can bark, go to the toilet, sniff around, keep an eye that the house is protected.

Just to add, letting dogs sleep on your bed is unhygienic and probably psychologically unhealthy for the dogs.



Dogs aren't people and their logic doesn't work the same as ours.

The indoor/outdoor debate has been dragged out on other threads, there's no need to drag it up here.
I have been presented with a situation and, given my position on this issue, I would appreciate some constructive advice on how best to approach it and balance the needs of everybody involved.

Oh_Noes

mosi wrote: »

The indoor/outdoor debate has been dragged out on other threads, there's no need to drag it up here.

It's exactly what your thread is about.

mosi wrote: »

I have been presented with a situation and, given my position on this issue, I would appreciate some constructive advice on how best to approach it and balance the needs of everybody involved.

The constructive advice here is not to interfere with your parents' practices and review your own.

Outkast_IRE

The rescue dog will be more than happy in the shed if the collie is , as long as its a dog with a decent coat for winter, id be more concerned with the possibility of fighting if a new dog is introduced.

I have never had a dog sleep indoors at night except when they are small pups. My dog would prefer outside at night.

ppink

kind of a difficult one! like you I prefer mine inside btu I do know we did have dogs in the past and they just were not happy inside at all. it is possibly a case that you may find rescues who have such dogs? After all at most rescue places the dogs are held outside......as in out in kennels. you might find one that has an older dog that just does not like the inside too.

do you think that is why the collie does not get on with the JRT..one is in and one is out? if the collie suddenly came in could there be war with JRT?

ISDW

Oh_Noes wrote: »

I'm not sure where you got the idea that most dogs prefer to be inside, I've had literally dozens of dogs of the years and I've found the opposite to be the case.

Usually the only dogs that I'd let sleep inside would be very small ones who are more affected by the cold than average-larger dogs. Dogs like to be outside so that they can bark, go to the toilet, sniff around, keep an eye that the house is protected.

Just to add, letting dogs sleep on your bed is unhygienic and probably psychologically unhealthy for the dogs.



Dogs aren't people and their logic doesn't work the same as ours.

I would really appreciate if you could please put the link up to the evidence for that particular statement. Thank you.

OP, maybe get them to have a look through rescue sites, or go to a shelter, talk to the staff there and see what they think. There is of course the possiblity that they may have a dog to rehome that has always been an outside dog, and may not like to sleep inside. Your parents could offer this dog what sounds like a perfect home.

I also prefer dogs to be inside with their pack, and yes, my dogs sleep on my bed, why should I interfere with genetics and hundreds of generations of dog behaviour? Huskies have traditionally slept with the members of the inuit tribes to keep them warm, so I don't want to change that, its part of who they are.

Chris_Heilong

I have heard something like what Oh_Noes said before:

If a dog sleeps up off the ground with its owner then its status is elevated in the pack, sometimes dogs that were very gentle and timid change to being protective when allowed sleep with their owners in cases such as these the dog may see their owner as weaker than them and something that they need to protect. In packs the higher ranking members sleep in the highest spot, same reason dogs try to jump up on the sofa all the time.

Is that correct Oh_Noes?

Not saying I agree with it, the Inuits did sleep with there dogs (Mals,Sibs and Samoyeds) they all slept on the ground so maybe thats why there were no issues. My Malamute stays indoors most of the day but at night he demands we let him sleep outside, I have tried to keep him in at night but he will always paw at the backdoor and as soon as I let him out he curls up on the grass and goes to sleep.

mosi

ppink wrote: »

kind of a difficult one! like you I prefer mine inside btu I do know we did have dogs in the past and they just were not happy inside at all. it is possibly a case that you may find rescues who have such dogs? After all at most rescue places the dogs are held outside......as in out in kennels. you might find one that has an older dog that just does not like the inside too.

do you think that is why the collie does not get on with the JRT..one is in and one is out? if the collie suddenly came in could there be war with JRT?

The JRT was the established dog and the collie was a local dog that was allowed to roam. After roaming into the parents' garden he just kept coming back until his owner told us to keep him (I was living there at the time). They were introduced on neutral ground and the JRT just went for him. After 11 years of animosity I don't see a reconciliation. Once they did get to each other and the JRT was hurt, thankfully not too seriously.
My parents have an acre, but just the section around the back - which is quite large - is fenced (and it would do credit to Fort Knox). This area is directly overlooked by the kitchen. I meant to mention that there is always somebody at home.
Aside from the outdoor issue, they are great dog owners. The dogs are exercised, well fed, vaccinated, interacted with, all the usual stuff.

Oh_Noes

ISDW wrote: »

I would really appreciate if you could please put the link up to the evidence for that particular statement. Thank you.

I don't base everything I say on a link that I found on the internet, it's common sense and experience. There is plenty about it if you are bothered to Google though. Some fairly obvious points made here:

Sleep Cycles
To start with, you may be disturbing the sleep pattern of your dog without even realizing it. You may not notice it but you might toss and turn throughout the night more than your dog would like. When you toss and turn there is a good chance that you are waking your dog up, disturbing its sleep cycle. On the flip side, if you have a dog that is doing all of the tossing and turning, your sleep cycle could be the one that is disturbed. Either way, it is important for both you and your dog to have adequate sleep.


Anxiety Issues
It has also been found that allowing your dog to sleep in your bed may in fact help reinforce behavior and even some anxiety problems in the dog. But that is not where it ends; your health could also be in danger as well. By allowing your dog to sleep in bed with you, you are placing yourself in possible danger every night.

Leadership
Training and authority can become problems to deal with when you allow the dog to sleep in your bed. Dogs are pack animals by nature. They view you as a part of the pack. When you allow the dog to sleep in your bed, the view your dog has of you changes. You are not its equal, not its leader. This could lead to aggression towards you when you try to correct your dog. You have to make sure that your dog knows who is in charge all of the time.

And there is a huge difference between Eskimos' dogs laying inside an igloo in Artic conditions and letting your dog sleep on your bed in your bedroom.

sentient_6

Oh_Noes wrote: »

And there is a huge difference between Eskimos' dogs laying inside an igloo in Artic conditions and letting your dog sleep on your bed in your bedroom.

Can of worms man, can of worms! :-)

mosi

ISDW wrote: »

OP, maybe get them to have a look through rescue sites, or go to a shelter, talk to the staff there and see what they think. There is of course the possiblity that they may have a dog to rehome that has always been an outside dog, and may not like to sleep inside. Your parents could offer this dog what sounds like a perfect home.

I'm planning to visit them next week and go through the rescue sites to see what dogs are available that may suit. I was actually thinking about contacting some rescues over the next few days and sounding them out, and seeing what they advise.

ppink

mosi wrote: »

The JRT was the established dog and the collie was a local dog that was allowed to roam. After roaming into the parents' garden he just kept coming back until his owner told us to keep him (I was living there at the time). They were introduced on neutral ground and the JRT just went for him. After 11 years of animosity I don't see a reconciliation. Once they did get to each other and the JRT was hurt, thankfully not too seriously.
My parents have an acre, but just the section around the back - which is quite large - is fenced (and it would do credit to Fort Knox). This area is directly overlooked by the kitchen. I meant to mention that there is always somebody at home.
Aside from the outdoor issue, they are great dog owners. The dogs are exercised, well fed, vaccinated, interacted with, all the usual stuff.

Oh I see. I had two that dont get on and it is sometimes difficult having them both in the house. I have to be dedicated that one gets locked in even if I am going to the loo as you just never know! They had a fight once too and I nearly needed resusitation after it!! It was just horrific.

It sounds like you parents are all set up well anyway so maybe just phone around and see........far better to have a dog outside and well looked after by your parents then pts or living alone.

ISDW

Oh_Noes wrote: »

I don't base everything I say on a link that I found on the internet, it's common sense and experience. There is plenty about it if you are bothered to Google though. Some fairly obvious points made here:



And there is a huge difference between Eskimos' dogs laying inside an igloo in Artic conditions and letting your dog sleep on your bed in your bedroom.

My common sense and experience tend to differ, so its just a matter of opinion really isn't it. You haven't put any evidence up, you have put up some words written by some unknown person, there is no scientific evidence there. If you can produce that, then maybe I'll reconsider.

What is the difference please? Unless you are merely saying it is the temperatures? Follow that argument through, and no double coated breeds should be living outside of that temperate region anyway.

I definitely don't agree with the dominance based theories on not letting a dog be at the same level as you. My dogs know they are dogs, and if I want them off the bed, they get told, and they get off. I don't dominate my dogs, and they don't fear me, when we are working, I need them to trust me as much as I trust them, that doesn't come from fear or them being dominated by me.

niallers1

Refer to point number 2 and 4. Says it all really..


Do not apply human logic to animals.

Just because you do not like the advice does not mean it's bad advice.

ISDW

niallers1 wrote: »

Refer to point number 2 and 4. Says it all really..


Do not apply human logic to animals.

Just because you do not like the advice does not mean it's bad advice.

Sorry, is that aimed at me? I can only see 3 points in the link. If it is aimed at me, I don't see how I am applying human logic to dogs?

Who gave this advice? Anybody can post anything, doesn't make it good advice, or scientifically based.

Oh_Noes

ISDW wrote: »

My common sense and experience tend to differ, so its just a matter of opinion really isn't it. You haven't put any evidence up, you have put up some words written by some unknown person, there is no scientific evidence there. If you can produce that, then maybe I'll reconsider.

What is the difference please? Unless you are merely saying it is the temperatures?

You haven't provided anything either, not even practical examples or logical reasons to actually let your dog sleep in your bed.

Yes I am suggesting that it is merely temperatures. They are work dogs and are required by their owners in order for their owners to survive. The temperature isn't exactly a minor factor, if the dogs slept outside in this case they would probably die.

ISDW

Oh_Noes wrote: »

You haven't provided anything either, not even practical examples or logical reasons to actually let your dog sleep in your bed.

Yes I am suggesting that it is merely temperatures. They are work dogs and are required by their owners in order for their owners to survive. The temperature isn't exactly a minor factor, if the dogs slept outside in this case they would probably die.

No, the dogs could survive outside, the reason they slept inside was to keep the people (specifically the children of the chukchi tribe) warm.

I don't have to provide anything, I choose to have my dogs sleep inside and on my bed, its you who is saying it is wrong. Its my choice, I sleep well, the dogs sleep well, we have a good relationship based on trust not fear or dominance. You don't want your dog to sleep on your bed, no problem, your choice, I'm not trying to put my opinion onto you, but you shouldn't try to tell other people what to do without the evidence to back up your claims.

Oranage2

IMO a dog that sleeps outside is no different to a dog that sleeps in the owners bed - It just might not suit the owners having a big dog running around the house -

by the sound of your folks they dont seem to be doing anything wrong, they feed the dogs, bring them for long walks and love the dogs and I bet you dont bring your dogs for as long a walk!

Also your folks have far more dog experience than you so they probably know a lot more than you when it comes to animals!!!!

Finally, would you rather they dont adopt a new dog cause I bet a dog in the pound would love to go home with your folks and I bet he wont mind sleeping outside!

ppink

LOL did you read the point 1 in that link about sleep cycles? You could say that about having anyone in bed with you:D

It is the stupidest point i have ever seen. my dogs sleep in the hall and if I turn over in my bed they hear me.......does this mean I disturb them. Maybe I should leave them outside where the wildlife passing through my garden will disturb their nights sleep:p

Who wrote that article....honestly

boodlesdoodles

I grew up in the country, the big dogs slept outside and the JRT slept inside behind a chair or in front of my parent's bedroom door. My dog sleeps on the bed, he's a Westie. He wasn't settling at night, after he'd been here over a year, and one night I brought him upstairs. Every sound he'd hear downstairs when he slept there would wake him. One of our neighbours has a dog who is outside all the time and barks on and off through the night. My fella loves being on the bed with us but all my OH has to say is 'off' and he jumps down. He knows his place in the family and I love waking up to that happy face in the morning. It's all down to personal choice and the discipline imposed on the doggie.

LucyBliss

Myself, I think it can be a bit limiting to have hard and fast rules about dogs (or quite a lot of things to be honest.) While you may have a set way of training a dog or a set idea about where your dog will sleep, a lot of times this has to be put aside because it just might not suit the particular dog you have at that time.

mosi, I personally would be a dog indoors person, but some dogs are more comfortable outside. And if the rescue dog gets on well with the other outdoor dog and they both have good sound shelter and protection from the elements, then it should all work out. Thirteen years is a great age for a Collie so they're clearly doing something right!
I'd wait and see how it goes. You'll have to post pictures of the new arrival though!

My dogs sleep on my bed. But they're not territorial. I tell them to get down & they do. I tell them to move over to another part of the bed, they do that. They are the kind of dogs that thrive on human contact. They need to be near people and that's trufax because the few weeks that I wasn't able to sit with them on the couch because of studying, they wouldn't settle in the evening. They got walked, fed, watered, everything else but I was up early and late to bed and when my exams and assignments were all done and I sat on the couch on the Friday, they leapt up beside me and were stuck to me like velcro for the weekend!
However, we've had other dogs in the past that weren't let near the beds or upstairs because they would have played puck with us. It would have gone to to their head and those dogs needed a bit less companionship and a bit more 'remember your station!' They were great dogs but their needs were different.

Which brings me back to my point: I prefer to be guided by the needs of the dog. And I'm talking true actual needs here for their well-being, not the kind of needs that has them staring at you all wide eyed and innocent when they know you've got something super tasty going on your plate.

CL32

Hi OP,

Maybe you could talk to a few rescues. I know they all work hard to match dogs to prospective homes. There could be a friendly auld thing out there who prefers to sleep outside rather than in - like a lot of the dogs belonging to regular posters here.

The fact that the dog won't be sleeping solitary outside will surely be a plus. (Once they get on with the collie obviously) No harm in asking around.

As for the off topic dogs sleeping in beds - come off it. I grew up with a selection of dogs and cats in my bed on and off my whole life. So did all my my mates. Luckily we were never challenged for dominance by our best mates, we never got pinkeye or worms and we all lived to tell the tale.

The worst we got was teary eyed when we bring up departed pets.

Best of luck OP, I'm sure there is a companion for your companion out there if you know what I mean.

Discodog

I think that the obvious thing would be to talk to some of your local rescues. You may well find a dog that has never slept indoors & that would have problems adapting to it. I suspect that you would have to convince the rescue that the dog will be well cared for & be in suitable accommodation.
The key thing is that the dog will not be alone.

As for the dominance/pack argument just ignore it !

fatmammycat

Mosi, it really depends on the dog.
My father had working collies his whole life ( cattle dogs) that absolutely HATED being in the house and were clearly uncomfortable indoors. They slept outside in a shed, one where they could come and go.
My parents also had a lab and a king charles that slept on the landing or in their bedroom– with no hassle. My own dog ( dbmann) slept in the kitchen in his bed every night, and was never allowed on my bed or any furniture. Every single one of these animals lived happily and in contentment until they died.
I guess what I am trying to say is that everthing depends on the personality of the dog, and not what we as people think is the 'only' way.

magentas

ISDW wrote: »

I definitely don't agree with the dominance based theories on not letting a dog be at the same level as you. My dogs know they are dogs, and if I want them off the bed, they get told, and they get off. I don't dominate my dogs, and they don't fear me, when we are working, I need them to trust me as much as I trust them, that doesn't come from fear or them being dominated by me.

+1 this dominance tripe really gets on my wick!
the first puppy class I bought my first dog to last year based their training on this, everything was about "pack leader" and commands were based on fear.

I've learnt a lot in the past year and bringing my new pup to classes with positive reinforcements and treat based reward system I know see how backward and ancient the dominance based training is. Our pup is responding brilliantly and is so easy to train. Most importantly, she's happy and enjoying the training!

Anyho, sorry for dragging off-topic OP:o

Sigma Force

@OP maybe they'd consider a smaller dog as they elderly your parents? If so they might find a smaller indoor dog easier to manage.

There are some rescue dogs who cope better with outdoor life some just can't cope with being indoors, you can work with them to get them used to being indoors but some just like to be outside. My collie hates being indoors we've tried a number of times but she will burst out windows but we're coming to a compramise where I'm hoping she'll be happy with where in the winter she'll sleep in the utility (once of the nicest rooms in the house) and put a dog flap in leading to a run at night so she can hop in and our if she's feeling clausterphobic.

Your parents might be able to find a dog that does prefer outdoor living but saying that our dogs all get lots of attention throughout the day and it's important if a dog has to live outside for whatever reason that they get the attention they need to make up for it.

Tranceypoo

OP, you should definitely talk to MADRA, they are based in Co Galway but rehome all over the country and match dogs to the persons lifestyle, some rescues will only rehome if the dog will be kept inside.
www.madra.ie

dammitjanet

OP, my parents were in a similar position when they decided to get a dog. They wanted an outdoor dog and ended up rehoming an old farm yard dog. "Flea" had lived outside on a horse farm all her life and was used to living sleeping in sheads. When she "retired" back to my parents house, she slept in a dog house in the garage with access to the garden and she was very happy.
I'm sure there are dogs that have lived their life as outdoor dogs and would be happy to continue it the way they've been used to it.

MissHappiness

We got a rescue pup at 8 wks old. She slept beside me in her own bed, and was happy to do so. Untill one night after last night trip around for late night wee. She came up to bed, but did not settle, she was looking to go back out again. I was thinking "you've just been. Not again???" I let her out, stood outside back door as usual, she didn't pee, just went into open shed and no coming back!! She decided she wants to be outside, not me. Her best friend lives outside next door, which was probably a factor. She loves it, but will happily stay indoors if it's too cold, but will sleep by patio door, where it is a bit cooler!!

mosi

Thanks for the advice guys.
I've already spotted a couple of rescue dogs online that are described as preferring the outdoor life.
I think my parents want to wait a little while now though...although that seems to be changing again.
I saw them at the weekend and they had been having second thoughts due to a certain family friend putting them off (this guy's favourite hobby is to put people off anything they mention...you know the type). Today though, they were on the phone to me asking about a dog whose picture I had sent to them, which has since been rehomed.
I think they'll have a good idea when the right one for them pops up though, and they have asked me (again) to keep them posted on suitable dogs. They're not very internet savvy so that's a job for me.
I think what got them back on the idea was seeing the collie enjoy the company of my little girl at the weekend. Despite the age difference, they got on really well and he even wanted to play.
I also think they'll adapt to whatever the situation calls for, ie if a dog turned out not to enjoy the outdoor life, they wouldn't just leave it out. I was glad to hear that for the last few months, the old lady that died was getting a lot more special indoor time.
I guess it's just a matter of working it all out and taking the time to do it right. Any developments and I'll let ye know.