**Spoilers** Series 6, Episode 7 - "A Good Man Goes To War"

jasonb

I'm thinking that River as a child in the spacesuit kills the doctor. She's then sent to jail and lives there for the rest of her life, leaving every now and then and basically considering it her home. She remembers killing him but we don't know why she does it yet.

The issue that the writers will have to fix is at the moment they're saying that Matt Smith is the last incarnation of The Doctor. I'm sure they'll think of something though...

J.

Coldzone

jasonb wrote: »

I'm thinking that River as a child in the spacesuit kills the doctor. She's then sent to jail and lives there for the rest of her life, leaving every now and then and basically considering it her home. She remembers killing him but we don't know why she does it yet.

The issue that the writers will have to fix is at the moment they're saying that Matt Smith is the last incarnation of The Doctor. I'm sure they'll think of something though...

J.

I'm not sure if it would be River in the spacesuit killing the Doctor and the girl got out of the spacesuit and when River was examining the suit she said that it could possible move on its own.

Lirange

I normally don't fancy her at all but River Song looked quite sumptuous to me. Speaking of which so did Christina Chong aka Lorna. I wouldn't have minded if we had gotten a few more appearances.

Anyhow the big reveal was probably the most predictable outcome of all the speculations but it was nonetheless enjoyable. You don't always have to trick the audience to satisfy them if the story is done well.

Aldebaran

That was a fantastic episode, Rory was all kinds of awesome.

Also, I got a bit of a laugh out of 'The Doctor will be back... in Let's Kill Hitler', can't wait to see that episode!

Yahew

We probably haven't seen the last of Lorna. She's met the doctor but we havent met her.

ríomhaire

Barrington wrote: »

Wait a minute..... When River first met The Doctor (Tenth Doctor), she knew his real name. Is that because she read it on The Doctor's cot?

The Doctor said that he would have had to tell her himself and that there was only one time when he'd be able to.

Ok random thoughts:
1) Everyone has probably already figured this out already but the reason Amy left behind her hand implant think when she disappeared in the second episode is because they didn't actually kidnap her, they just melted her ganger.
2) Following on from that, I think we're definitely going to see the Silence again. They must have had something to do with Amy's gangerization.
2b) The Silence Will Fall voice and what exactly caused the TARDIS to explodinate still hasn't been addressed.
2c) The Doctor's lost two hundred years still need addressing too. Perhaps Melody steals the TARDIS?
2d) I think we're going to see the forests of Gamma in the second half of the series
3) River can regenerate. That'll come in handy if they want to change the actress. Always good for a long-term character (I rather hope River becomes a more permanent companion) in case Alex Kingston decides she's had her fill.
4) I wonder will we be seeing the Doctor be a little less genocidey now. His anger has caught up with him in a big way. They could focus the Doctor on being more kind and distil his more badass fearsome side into River.
5) Let's Kill Hitler is a goddamn awesome name for an episode

Only just got to watch this now, my head hurts in the most wonderful fashion.

I think Amy & Rory may be my favourite onscreen couple...but the River/Doctor story is really very poignant so they have some competition...

MrVestek

ríomhaire wrote: »

3) River can regenerate. That'll come in handy if they want to change the actress. Always good for a long-term character (I rather hope River becomes a more permanent companion) in case Alex Kingston decides she's had her fill.

They can't do that though... we'd only be able to see her regenerate from the girl into the River song that we already know. We couldn't see the river song that we know regenerate into something else because the final time she met the doctor (and died) was when she met David Tennant.

The only way they'd be able to achieve that would be to have river on screen as the new actress of her previous regeneration... not her next regeneration.

Wibbly wobbly timey wimey.

Also am I the only one that thinks that Lorna IS Jenny? Obviously we haven't seen her properly yet but if we meet her in the future there's nothing to say that she isn't the regeneration of Jenny. The reason the doctor doesn't remember her is because of the different face and obviously because he hasn't met her yet within his own time stream.

Check out this scene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb3iPFyJqI8

She met the doctor in a forest... the forest of the dead. She 'dies' in this forest but comes back to life (not as others think due to regeneration... but due to her unique phisiology).

She goes off and travels the universe... has her own adventures... gets killed... regenerates into Lorna and goes to help her father. She has meetings with 11 but later on in his time stream (we haven't seen this yet) and has a 'whole lot of running to do'.

I'm telling you... Lorna is Jenny.

Yahew

She can regenerate into a body before she becomes River Song. Then become the Alex Kingston version. As we go back in her timeline ( forward in the doctor's and our's) she can regenerate into something else. ( or rather she regenerated to look like Knigston).

Not an issue.

Feral Mutant

Achilles wrote: »

They can't do that though... we'd only be able to see her regenerate from the girl into the River song that we already know. We couldn't see the river song that we know regenerate into something else because the final time she met the doctor (and died) was when she met David Tennant.

The only way they'd be able to achieve that would be to have river on screen as the new actress of her previous regeneration... not her next regeneration.

Why exactly can't they do that? They never said River only regenerated once. They could have someone else play her and say "Hey, it's me, River. What, you don't recognise me? I guess that means I'll be regenerating some time before I see you next. Woops spoilers". Or I could see them doing an episode with some new mysterious character who dies then regenerates into Alex Kingston as a big that-person-was-River-all-along reveal.

ríomhaire

Achilles wrote: »

They can't do that though... we'd only be able to see her regenerate from the girl into the River song that we already know. We couldn't see the river song that we know regenerate into something else because the final time she met the doctor (and died) was when she met David Tennant.

The only way they'd be able to achieve that would be to have river on screen as the new actress of her previous regeneration... not her next regeneration.

Wibbly wobbly timey wimey.

Yeah that's exactly what I meant. We're meeting River backwards in time so if she got a new actress the first time we'd meet her new regeneration is her regenerating into current River.

Feral Mutant wrote: »

Or I could see them doing an episode with some new mysterious character who dies then regenerates into Alex Kingston as a big that-person-was-River-all-along reveal.

Damn I was just about to post this idea.


Ok so after some thinking. On the prayer handkerchief that the female soldier (Bucket?) embroidered Melody on one side and Pond on the other side, but due to translationness it came out as River on one side and Song on the other. So I'm guessing at some point very early on in her life the Doctor leaves Melody in the cot on someone's doorstep in the crib with the prayer cloth, probably in the Forests of Gamma but possibly not. In any case where ever she's left someone there is able to read the names written on the cloth but can't tell the order so she becomes known as River Song.

c_man

"Stevie Wonder sang in 1814?"
"Yes but you must never tell him"

aidan_walsh

I'm pretty sure River can regenerate, and still keep the same body. We've seen it before when the Doctor redirected his generative energy into his handy spare hand, but also (and more importantly) with Jenny.

flazio

So basically Rory

had a threesome with Amy and Idris

on his wedding night.

mach1982

ríomhaire wrote: »

Ok so after some thinking. On the prayer handkerchief that the female soldier (Bucket?) embroidered Melody on one side and Pond on the other side, but due to translationness it came out as River on one side and Song on the other. So I'm guessing at some point very early on in her life the Doctor leaves Melody in the cot on someone's doorstep in the crib with the prayer cloth, probably in the Forests of Gamma but possibly not. In any case where ever she's left someone there is able to read the names written on the cloth but can't tell the order so she becomes known as River Song.

I think it's more like this, Eye Patch lady has taken Melody to the Forest of Gamma, and I think there a Military installation , as she be called my her surname, first name Pond, Melody which translates as River Song . She's brought up to think the Doctor is the enemy., until she meet the doctor a realise all she be told is lies. Lorrna( girl solder) said she meet the doctor when she was young , maybe she was friend with River when they were young Also I think the Silence are not as bad as we are made to think.

I think the last we'll see of Alex Kingston will be the reverse of regeneration. Lots of TARDIS energy emitting from her, The Doctor being all poignant as it's the last time he'll see "his" River Song, and then we'll get a new River, just about to die*


*my head hurts

The Left Hand Of God

c_man wrote: »

"Stevie Wonder sang in 1814?"
"Yes but you must never tell him"

Or the Victorian Silurian to her female companion "I sometime wonder what you see in me" before she knocks out the soldier with her rather long lizard tongue

Sleepy

I like angry doctor

ixoy

Great episode - many questions answered, more poised. I love the fact that there's so much more to debate now rather than just how loud was that Slitheen's fart that was left to us in RTD's era.
Interesting theories here and I'm also of the belief there's more to Lorna, although she may not be Jenny. The Doctor's going to meet here at some point again, as a child but he can't just offer her fish fingers and custard knowing what's in store for her.

The Doctor is at his darkest here in many ways - the acts committed in the first third are quite violent for him. He blows up the Cybermen before asking them where Amy is. That's not something he would normally do. He also doesn't claim to be a good man because they don't need rules but he does (a brief blog posthere on that). Matt Smith did a fantastic job here from the anger, to how he reacted to Amy, Rory and Melody to the delightful childlike moment when he found out who River Song was.
Rory was excellent here too - loved how he's been progressing from bumbling around last season to confident here (yet still tearing up when he sees his daughter). Good work and a great addition to the cast this season.

Finally we found out the next episode's title (whenever that is): "Let's Kill Hitler!" Of the 218 story names so far (more if you count the individual names in early seasons), this is the best. Brilliant title!

K-9

The best part was River admonishing him for his revenge and how he could have been so much better, thought it was poignant enough, then when it was revealed, made far more poignant.

Ahoyhoy

Quick summary: That was feckin' brilliant.

Re: the regenerations of River and Jenny, I think the Jenny regenerating into herself was casting laziness that will probably be explained away by the machine that created her not being able to program that part of Timelord DNA. River's regeneration on the other hand....that's a TARDIS baby, not the product of a few skin cells and a cloning device. I was wondering about her future when she showed up Silence in the Library. I was thinking that they were going to have to have this same actress, for more than one Doctor and have her aging backwards all the time? Makes more sense for her to be able to regenerate into an entirely new body. Would also explain why this River seems to have already done almost everything she ever does with the Doctor.

Has anyone heard of a date for the beginning of the second half beside the ever tantalising "Autumn 2011"?

kiddums

Am I the only one who noticed that the line 'When a good man goes to war...' could apply not only to The Doctor but to Rory too?
When the line was being said it kept showing The Doctor but then cutting to Rory.
Or I'm I just being mislead by the fact that Rory has a reputation in the universe also? (The Last Centurian)

ríomhaire

Ahoyhoy wrote: »

Quick summary: That was feckin' brilliant.

Re: the regenerations of River and Jenny, I think the Jenny regenerating into herself was casting laziness that will probably be explained away by the machine that created her not being able to program that part of Timelord DNA. River's regeneration on the other hand....that's a TARDIS baby, not the product of a few skin cells and a cloning device. I was wondering about her future when she showed up Silence in the Library. I was thinking that they were going to have to have this same actress, for more than one Doctor and have her aging backwards all the time? Makes more sense for her to be able to regenerate into an entirely new body. Would also explain why this River seems to have already done almost everything she ever does with the Doctor.

Has anyone heard of a date for the beginning of the second half beside the ever tantalising "Autumn 2011"?

I always figured that Jenny's "regeneration" was just the teraforming/life-giving machine (that was activating just as she died) bringing her back to life, not a proper timelord regeneration.

Killer_banana

ríomhaire wrote: »

I always figured that Jenny's "regeneration" was just the teraforming/life-giving machine (that was activating just as she died) bringing her back to life, not a proper timelord regeneration.

I don't think even the writers are sure of what caused Jenny to come back to life. After all she was originally meant to die but Stephen Moffat asked RTD to keep her alive.

pixelburp

You know what, I know that Moffat apparently requested that Jenny be kept alive, but I suspect she'll be one of those characters that will be conveniently forgotten about & sent to pasture, rather than reintroduce her again.

Cookie33

kiddums wrote: »

Am I the only one who noticed that the line 'When a good man goes to war...' could apply not only to The Doctor but to Rory too?
When the line was being said it kept showing The Doctor but then cutting to Rory.
Or I'm I just being mislead by the fact that Rory has a reputation in the universe also? (The Last Centurian)

I also thought that, after all the last centurian lived for more than 2000 years protecting Amy and the pandorica..

Also while watching doctor who confidential, I noticed the name of the female companion of the Victorian Silurian: Jenny! (concidence?)

My thoughts on the whole river song/doctor is that she is brought up to hate the doctor by eye patch lady and the military and eventually kill him (the spacesuit).

Although if she killed the doctor when she was a little girl in the spacesuit, surely the old library scene where she died and the forest with the doctor would not have happened?

*the more i think of this the more confused i get!

Mr E

After reading this thread, I have a headache! I love the debate this episode has caused. As ixoy said, its a far cry from farting aliens.

I was away for the weekend, and only saw it last night. Great episode, and one that I think deserves a second viewing tonight.

MrVestek

Cookie33 wrote: »

Although if she killed the doctor when she was a little girl in the spacesuit, surely the old library scene where she died and the forest with the doctor would not have happened?

*the more i think of this the more confused i get!

That's still perfectly capable of happening. She would have killed the 11th incarnation and not the 10th. The 10th came before the 11th so it happened earlier in his timeline but much later in her timeline.

Even though the doctor is 'dead' per say... they could still cross paths again by meeting eachother out of sync. Makes perfect sense.

The Mad Hatter

Really enjoyed that episode. Just to add a further thought to the jumble:

We've seen that Rory had a/the sonic screwdriver for a good chunk of this episode, and we saw the look of incredible pity River gave him at the beginning of the episode, and that that seemed to be her first meeting with him. Is he going to die for real?

pixelburp

Achilles wrote: »

That's still perfectly capable of happening. She would have killed the 11th incarnation and not the 10th. The 10th came before the 11th so it happened earlier in his timeline but much later in her timeline.

Even though the doctor is 'dead' per say... they could still cross paths again by meeting eachother out of sync. Makes perfect sense.

Yes, but to make things feel even more confusing; when #10 meets River, she's not sure what doctor it is; iirc she initially thinks he's a later regeneration, #12 or #13. She only meets #10 the once - that one time in the library - therefore her only memories of him overall would be #11 and later. So I took that to mean that River has known the doctor for a long while & potentially multiple regenerations, which makes me wonder if she is actually responsible for the Doctor's "death" in the first place. If she killed #11, she wouldn't have been wondering if Tennant was an older version.

In fact perhaps this is one big case of misdirection: afterall, someone else cleverly pointed out that "A Good Man" also refers to Rory, who is now a bit of a legend in his own right, and will surely conduct his own crusade to get Melody back. We know that River commits murder of a great man; maybe that great man is Rory, not the Doctor. The daughter killing the father - sure it's positively Shakespearean. I just can't get my head around the idea of River killing the Doctor, then becoming his best pal / lover / whatever.

Oh and I'm still not ruling out the Ganger Doctor popping up and taking the fall for The Doctor's death.

Stark

I didn't get the impression that she thought 10 was an older version. She did say that he was the youngest she'd ever seen him despite Matt Smith being much younger so it seemed she knew he was an earlier regeneration. The confusion arose because she assumed at the time that she would go on to have further adventures with 10 working backwards in his timeline before coming to the realisation that that would be their last adventure together.

BaconZombie

MrVestek

BaconZombie wrote: »

That would make sense alright!

pwwillia

Didn't river say she was in prison for killing a good man? maybe she's referring to her father Rory.

MrVestek

pwwillia wrote: »

Didn't river say she was in prison for killing a good man? maybe she's referring to her father Rory.

Welcome to last week :-)

Yahew

pixelburp wrote: »

Oh and I'm still not ruling out the Ganger Doctor popping up and taking the fall for The Doctor's death.

Carton said - when Amy asked was it a clone, or a duplicate, or something - that it was definitely the Doctor, and he was most definitely dead.

This from Moffat today in twitter

@EuroboiSteve @DrWhoOnline What, you don't think he's got time, in those 200 years, to have LOTS of adventures. He DIED - you saw him.

Lad's dead. 200 years does not present any difficulties to future TV makers, or it gives them 200 years to play with. We will all be dead before this is a problem.

pixelburp

Yahew wrote: »

Carton said - when Amy asked was it a clone, or a duplicate, or something - that it was definitely the Doctor, and he was most definitely dead.

This from Moffat today in twitter

@EuroboiSteve @DrWhoOnline What, you don't think he's got time, in those 200 years, to have LOTS of adventures. He DIED - you saw him.

Lad's dead. 200 years does not present any difficulties to future TV makers, or it gives them 200 years to play with. We will all be dead before this is a problem.

In fairness, it's not like the makers of Dr. Who don't have previous with exaggerating the truth. I'll believe it when I see, but I still think this is a big red herring

A lot of us didn't think River would end up being something as ordinary as character X's daughter / mother, but that's how it turned out. We've already established that the Ganger people are the real deal when they become self-aware.

The Mad Hatter

pixelburp wrote: »

In fairness, it's not like the makers of Dr. Who don't have previous with exaggerating the truth. I'll believe it when I see, but I still think this is a big red herring

A lot of us didn't think River would end up being something as ordinary as character X's daughter / mother, but that's how it turned out. We've already established that the Ganger people are the real deal when they become self-aware.

Yes, but for one thing it'd be the third time that trick had been pulled in the series, and for another, it'd be incredibly cheap to state in the first episode that the Doctor is not a clone or a duplicate, and then in the last to say "nyaa-ha--". It would be terrible writing, and Steven Moffat is not a terrible writer.

jasonb

So, how do they get around the fact that the Doctor looks like Matt Smith when he dies? Assuming he's not the last actor to play the Doctor that is...

J.

The Mad Hatter

jasonb wrote: »

So, how do they get around the fact that the Doctor looks like Matt Smith when he dies? Assuming he's not the last actor to play the Doctor that is...

J.

We'll see:)

Art_Wolf

Yahew wrote: »

Lad's dead. 200 years does not present any difficulties to future TV makers, or it gives them 200 years to play with. We will all be dead before this is a problem.

Moffat can't simply leave this plot unfinished - who kills him, why does he go when he knows he may be killed, why does he have to bring along his companions from two hundred years ago etc.

pixelburp wrote: »

We've already established that the Ganger people are the real deal when they become self-aware.

When the ganger dies they revert to sludge.

Sleepy

If it's one thing I've learnt about Doctor Who over the 6 series since it's return it's that time can be re-written. Even when the Doctor says it can't. And *especially* when there are serious rules against it

aidan_walsh

Do Good Time Lords Need Rules

Furthermore, we learn that the Doctor’s actions have begun to affect galactic culture: the word “Doctor,” in some languages, no longer means “healer,” but rather “fierce warrior.”**

...

**Makes you wonder about Dr. River Song's honorific...

And from the comments of the Den of Geek review

Let's Kill Hitler I think is a massive deception again. It's the old philosophy question. If you had a time machine, would you go back and kill hitler before he did anything? The problem is of course that if you killed him, the second world war wouldn't happen, and we wouldn't have learnt all the lessons that came along with that horrible period of time. So I think this means that the doctor can't go and get Melody as a baby and take her back to Amy

I certainly agree that titles like The Doctor's Wife (which came from a narrative description in the script rather than anything that happened on screen) we really shouldn't take titles too literally.

Sleepy

Den of Geek wrote:

The problem is of course that if you killed him, the second world war wouldn't happen, and we wouldn't have learnt all the lessons that came along with that horrible period of time.

That's the biggest problem?! Not that with a sane leader, Germany would have prevailed over most of Europe?!

I agree with the thrust of the post though, it'll be a reference to a restriction on the Doctor's actions in relation to rescuing Melody/River.

The Mad Hatter

Sleepy wrote: »

That's the biggest problem?! Not that with a sane leader, Germany would have prevailed over most of Europe?!

With a sane leader, Germany probably wouldn't have tried to exterminate an entire race, tbf...

Regarding the episode title, I do seem to remember men in SS uniforms in the trailer, so I wouldn't rule out a literal(ish) meaning.

pixelburp

Spoilers regarding the Let's Kill Hitler episode:

Set photos, from way back, reveal that it is indeed set in ww2 Germany; lots of extras in period costume, and the usual smattering of german soldiers & equipment. So yeah, it looks like it will be slightly literaly allright.

Stark

Yahew wrote: »

Lad's dead. 200 years does not present any difficulties to future TV makers, or it gives them 200 years to play with. We will all be dead before this is a problem.

One problem. Doctor Who is likely to go on as a show long after Matt Smith tires of playing the Doctor. With 11's death, Moffat has made Matt Smith the Doctor's final regeneration. The BBC aren't just going to let their flagship show die with Smith's tenure.

Yahew

The real reason why the future doctor looks like the present doctor is because Matt Smith is now playing the doctor. Anyway they can explain that away by saying that doctor was in disguise.

The reason to not kill hitler is that the solution is worse - possibly a nuclear armed Germany in 1950, still militaristic and antagonistic to the Soviets and the West, letting a few go off.

The Doctor may have to explain that he can see other eventualities, and killing Hitler was worse, or they do kill him and it does get worse. Then they reverse it.

phil1nj

Yahew wrote: »

The real reason why the future doctor looks like the present doctor is because Matt Smith is now playing the doctor. Anyway they can explain that away by saying that doctor was in disguise.

?????????????????

phil1nj

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

It would be terrible writing, and Steven Moffat is not a terrible writer.

I don't think he's a terrible writer but he is prone to laziness. Last seasons escape from the Pandorica debacle was absolutley terrible and lazy writing. Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying the Matt Smith series so far but I just have this feeling in the pit of my belly that all these loose ends and plot line strands will trip Moffat up if he's not careful. In the space of 7 episodes of this series we've been left with a lot of unanswered questions, and we still have one or two left over from last seaon (i.e. who was responsible for causing the TARDIS to explode).

And I don't think he can get away with killing the Doctor despite what he has said on twitter. Fans wouldn't stand for it. Anyway, lets see what happens in the Autumn....