BJJ WORLDS

NG-DOC

Shane Fitz wrote: »

But you acted arbitrarilly, or so it seems to me.
Simple direction, on whether someone who has graded no-Gi must transfare to that grade for Gi comp or not. Are no-Gi grades still considered the equivelant to Gi grades.?
Or are we to now use your model, where if the consensus is they are two different games and require two different grading standards?
Or is it to be a case by case basis?
At the moment, no-Gi grades are regard as egual to Gi grades for the purpose of competition. Your actions have turned that on its head.

I'll pose you a question, which does not need to be answered publically, but consider it please?
What happens to the next Next Gen Blue t-shirt who wants to compete in a Gi tournie? Does he go in as a Blue or a White, how do we decide?

regarding the first few questions. it's clear we don't have the same understanding of this situation and if you would like to discuss this further in person when i am back in ireland, i'd be more than happy to. but for now, i have no energy or desire to continue this discussion here.

as for the last question, i would like an answer to this too.

dasmoose

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

The "list" is compiled by fans of the sport as an easy reference point. It's not some official line to refer back to. I'd imagine there's a lot missing from it from guys who are travelling etc.

This. Getting on the list is simply a case of emailing us and telling us you've got your belt, if you're known to me I'll put you on, if you're not i'll do some very minor checks that you're not just some random bloke.

In the case of NG, I think either Dave Jones emailed me or I saw on his site that chris and a few others had been promoted by Chris Brennan. Chris is a legit black belt so they went on the list, simple as.

darced

This post has been deleted.

OLDMAN1

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

What accepted convention? The belt list everyone's talking about is on BJJ.ie, which is an excellent website run by people who are interested in the sport in Ireland, but nothing official. The IBJJA exists but hasn't really done anything since it's inception bar a couple of tournaments so I can't see them coming up with any rules regarding grades in gi or nogi. I've never seen any literature from the IBJJF that states anything regarding grades.

Darragh has given his explanation on the matter, and while I disagree with his reading of the situation I think I'll talk to him about it the next time I see him face to face, as I think this thread is actually becoming just a vehicle for people who don't understand the sport to snipe. OLDMAN isn't involved in BJJ, Niall Keane isn't involved in BJJ, MMAIRELANDFAN isn't involved in BJJ, so when we're talking about gi vs. Nogi grades they don't know what we're on about but since this is an open forum they can wantonly accuse people of cheating willy nilly without understanding the rules. I don't think that's fair on Chris or his team regardless of my opinion.

I don't think this is right, but I think the rules are to blame here, not anyone else.

Barry: Im not sniping as you put it, normally i wouldn't bother getting involved with ones these thrends, this one was different for 2 reasons.

(1) I didn't like the way this thrend was closed, in my opinion some people tryed to bully the mods to close it and to be honest this rubed me up the wrong way from the start.

(2) If this had happened at any normal bjj competition in Ireland, i wouldn't have got involved but when someone steps on to the international stage and represents my country (Ireland), i believe it's open to anyone weather they come from a martial arts background or not. people that represent Ireland should be held to a high standard, i don't accuse people of cheating willy nilly...

On a personel note , I've been doing different forms of wrestling for a long time in nogi and gi (we call them just jackets) so please dont try to give the impression you know what i know, you dont know me, you dont know what i do or dont know, i've openly stated that i dont know the FULL rules of BJJ,I've never trained in BJJ. I've enough trouble remembering the
rules of the stuff i do, thats the reason i asked for clarification on them, you on the other hand not only do BJJ, you also teach it, so whats your excuse for not knowing them as you couldn't anwser the question either...

Doug Cartel

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

(2) If this had happened at any normal bjj competition in Ireland, i wouldn't have got involved but when someone steps on to the international stage and represents my country (Ireland), i believe it's open to anyone weather they come from a martial arts background or not. people that represent Ireland should be held to a high standard, i don't accuse people of cheating willy nilly...

Perhaps I'm splitting hairs here, but this thing is done by club, not country. Technically he wasn't really representing Ireland, but Ribeiro Jiu-Jitsu.

Chris89

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Perhaps I'm splitting hairs here, but this thing is done by club, not country. Technically he wasn't really representing Ireland, but Ribeiro Jiu-Jitsu.

This.

I was indirectly representing Ireland by getting off my arse and doing something, but there is no acknowledgment whatsoever made to what country you are from.

Sid_Justice

when are you coming back to ireland chris

Chris89

Sid_Justice wrote: »

when are you coming back to ireland chris

July, missing the Munster Open unfortunately.

Chris89

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Just because I can beat people in a tournament doesnt say anything about my belt rank, I might just be good at competitions or have a strategy that on the day I was able to use to beat my opponent. There are countless variables.

A purple belt?! Lets not be silly.

BJJRevSS

Chris89 wrote: »

Just because I can beat people in a tournament doesnt say anything about my belt rank, I might just be good at competitions or have a strategy that on the day I was able to use to beat my opponent. There are countless variables.

A purple belt?! Lets not be silly.

But chris your competing in an advanced division with advanced rules, which does indicate your rank of blue, purple or anything above as the other competitors are the same ?

Its a pitty that this situation has happedned none of this is a personal attack on you just every 1s curious how this affect the rules ?
Will people now be regraded if they move clubs?

EnjoyChoke

Chris,
any chance you could post a big f***ing photo of your medal?
I like medals.

cowzerp

BJJRevSS wrote: »

But chris your competing in an advanced division with advanced rules, which does indicate your rank of blue, purple or anything above as the other competitors are the same ?

Its a pitty that this situation has happedned none of this is a personal attack on you just every 1s curious how this affect the rules ?
Will people now be regraded if they move clubs?

well maybe he's not purple but not far off it, certainly not white anyway.

i also would like clarification on where this puts others who graded with Chris Brennan..

EnjoyChoke

Christ Almighty, is this groundhog day? Seriously.

Tim_Murphy

Jebus! This is some thread ye have going. :eek:

I don't have particularly strong opinions about BJJ belts, competitions and all that, just wanted to say congrats to Chris. It's a huge acheivement anyway you look at it. Well done dude.

Sid_Justice

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

I don't have particularly strong opinions about BJJ belts, competitions and all that,

do you train or compete in the gi?

Tim_Murphy

Sid_Justice wrote: »

do you train or compete in the gi?

Yes and yes. I coach gi BJJ too.

da-bres

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Yes and yes. I coach gi BJJ too.

you looked slick at the last munster open Tim will you be competing at it again in July?

Tim_Murphy

da-bres wrote: »

you looked slick at the last munster open Tim will you be competing at it again in July?

Cheers man. I think it might be clashing with something else, but if it isn't I'll be there.

Sid_Justice

If you were able to enter the gi bjj competition at the munster open tim what belt competition would you enter? On one hand you say you've no time for the belt system but at the same time you compete in BJJ competition so you have to follow the rules.

Chris89

BJJRevSS wrote: »

But chris your competing in an advanced division with advanced rules, which does indicate your rank of blue, purple or anything above as the other competitors are the same ?

Those divisions were made by how long you had been training, not what bjj belt you were, people that dont even practice bjj can enter them. I have trained on and off for about three years, even though most of it was once or twice a week casually, I still entered the advanced division.

BJJRevSS

Chris89 wrote: »

Those divisions were made by how long you had been training, not what bjj belt you were, people that dont even practice bjj can enter them. I have trained on and off for about three years, even though most of it was once or twice a week casually, I still entered the advanced division.[/QUOTE

Alright no problem, this is the last post I'll be making on this because I'm sick of it now... I emailed the IBJJF explaining to them the situation that went on (see email below). Anyone who wants to clarify this please email Alvaro Mansor at regras@ibjjf.com and he will be happy to answer your questions as he did mine. This should answer everyones question - Are no gi grades equal to gi grades.

Thanks very much,
This has been painful!!!!
Cheers,
Michael O'Hagan

Hi

Im writing with a question about the grade system. If some one has a blue belt in nogi does this make them the equivelant in the gi ???
A person from our academy trains nogi and hold the rank of blue belt, he also competes in the gi at blue division. He recently traveled to the USA and competed and entered a white belt and place 3rd , it is now under debate weather hes been cheating . Can you please give me your opinion on this???

Thanks for your time

Regards

Michael O'Hagan

regras@ibjjf.com toMichael O'Hagan <micknobody@gmail.com>
dateWed, Jun 8, 2011 at 8:54 PMsubjectRe:
hide details 8:54 PM (45 minutes ago)

The correct answer is that the same rank for gi on will be for without the gi.

Em 6 6, 2011 7:09 PM, "Michael O'Hagan" <micknobody@gmail.com>escreveu:- Show quoted text -

EnjoyChoke

Thanks Mick,

that clears absolutly nothing up. He doesn't train at you academy, does he?
Why are you turning this forum into a den of lies?
Anyway I do not understand why this is upsetting you so much, but I'm glad you have decided to move on.

SDTimeout

Thanks Mick, pretty sure we all knew that though and the debate had moved onto if it was fair / was there a problem with the IBJJF ?

Chris89

so we now know Alvaro Mansors opinion of whether I cheated or not is: gi grades will be the same in nogi.

Thank goodness you posted this.

And I would never train at your academy Mick.

BJJRevSS

Chris89 wrote: »

I would never train at your academy Mick.

Nobodys name is mentioned here its a hypotetical question! Its very similar to the story going on with you.. by the sounds of things I wouldnt want you there Chris, sand-bagers and cheaters stink up the place and is bad for business!!!:)

Chris89

BJJRevSS wrote: »

Nobodys name is mentioned here its a high potetical question! Its very similar to the story going on with you.. by the sounds of things I wouldnt want you there Chris, sand-bagers and cheaters stink up the place and is bad for business!!!:)

High Potetical!

Chris89

BJJRevSS wrote: »

Nobodys name is mentioned here its a hypotetical question! Its very similar to the story going on with you.. by the sounds of things I wouldnt want you there Chris, sand-bagers and cheaters stink up the place and is bad for business!!!:)

Well then if it wasnt me then Congratulations to you and your student for the Medal, you must be a great coach and you and your team must have worked very hard for this. Well deserved!

Chris

Sid_Justice

Chris89 wrote: »

so we now know Alvaro Mansors

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Alvaro Mansors the CBJJ director rules? Surely his opinion matters on a competition he is the director of rules for. His position is fairly clear, entrants to BJJ competitions should enter in the grade they were awarded by certified and accredited individuals, in this case BJJ blackbelts. Chris Brennan is a BJJ black belt and has been for many years and he awarded you a blue belt. You decided under advice from Daragh O'Conail to enter the competition as a White Belt. This is a fairly obvious breach of the rules. People that break rules of competitions are foulers and cheaters.

I started out thinking you are a humble and hardworking person, passionate about the art of BJJ and wanted to start from scratch in the gi and learn the art from the beginning from someone equally interested in the gi aspect of the sport. Now I've moved onto thinking you're a slightly arrogant, naive brazilophile who wants to eat acai berries and sandbag and win bjj tournaments.

I read Darragh's and your account of the situation and I saw the logic. While it may not be cheating in an important, significant or malicious way don't overlook the fact, that as the rules stand to any reasonable person it is technically cheating.

Take as many pot shots at my spelling, grammar, bjj knowledge lineage or experience as you want but I think the facts speak from themselves regardless of what you and your chum say.

Chris89

I would hope that it was fairly obvious to most that my reply was just poking fun at how vague the response was, perhaps Micks question was lost in translation.

To me the reply reads "if you are a blue belt in gi BJJ, you hold the equivelant 'nogi rank'".

Dont take my comments towards Mick as arrogant, he hasnt been saying very nice things about me, I dont think I owe him any respect.

Sid_Justice

Fair enough Chris, you're getting a lot of heat here and are only sticking up for yourself. I hope I didn't sound too carried away, it's not like it's michelle de bruin smith!

da-bres

@BJJREVSS

Mick I have a lot of respect for you and your team,
But I think you should cool it off.
Andy and Darragh have both said their piece on the subject, what more do you want?

Chris will more than likely get his blue belt over the next few weeks and compete in blue belt divisions from then onwards.

Problem solved.

Now lets all get back to training, I feel like a boards junkie.

lawrencesummers

Chris89 wrote: »

so we now know Alvaro Mansors opinion of whether I cheated or not is: gi grades will be the same in nogi.

Thank goodness you posted this.

And I would never train at your academy Mick.

He doesnt have opinions, he has rules, and is answering a question that everybody except you knew the answer to. It might be time to admit that you made an error in judgement, as you did clearly act in contravention of the rules.

lawrencesummers

Chris89 wrote: »

I would hope that it was fairly obvious to most that my reply was just poking fun at how vague the response was, perhaps Micks question was lost in translation.

...

if you found that answer vague its not bjj that you should be learning.

da-bres

lawrencesummers wrote: »

if you found that answer vague its not bjj that you should be learning.

''The correct answer is that the same rank for gi on will be for without the gi.''

This everyone knows and was his answer.

It however, does not mention the opposite which is what people on this forum are so dearly concerned about, hence vague.

Nice sly dig mate.

Chris89

lawrencesummers wrote: »

if you found that answer vague its not bjj that you should be learning.

Not much else im interested in learning to be honest.

Tim_Murphy

Sid_Justice wrote: »

If you were able to enter the gi bjj competition at the munster open tim what belt competition would you enter? On one hand you say you've no time for the belt system but at the same time you compete in BJJ competition so you have to follow the rules.

I never said that I had no time for the belt system. I have no problem with the belt system at all, it's a pretty good one for the most part. I'd compete in the blue belt division I'd imagine as thats the BJJ rank I have.

Al 25

Well done Chris on your medal , great achievement alot haters hanging around this thread
wish I could pack up and train in the US , RESPECT
Any chance posting a pic of medal

Diab Soule

Having read through this whole thing, it seems like the question asked of Mr. Mansor was not the relevant issue. Chris was deemed a white belt by Saulo Ribeiro (otherwise Saulo would not have subsequently promoted Chris to blue). Therefore as far as Saulo Ribeiro was concerned, Chris entered the correct division. Thus, the relevant question is whether or not the IBJJF regulations permit Saulo to demote a student previously ranked by someone else (which JK says is not unknown), and the whole gi/no-gi malarkey becomes irrelevant.

cowzerp

Al 25 wrote: »

Well done Chris on your medal , great achievement alot haters hanging around this thread
wish I could pack up and train in the US , RESPECT
Any chance posting a pic of medal

I'm certainly not a hater and have said more than i wanted to on here, just because people think he was already a blue does not make them haters, if he had medalled at blue i'd be the 1st on here saying well done.

Diab Soule wrote: »

Having read through this whole thing, it seems like the question asked of Mr. Mansor was not the relevant issue. Chris was deemed a white belt by Saulo Ribeiro (otherwise Saulo would not have subsequently promoted Chris to blue). Therefore as far as Saulo Ribeiro was concerned, Chris entered the correct division. Thus, the relevant question is whether or not the IBJJF regulations permit Saulo to demote a student previously ranked by someone else (which JK says is not unknown), and the whole gi/no-gi malarkey becomes irrelevant.

He was already deemed a blue belt by Chris Brennan, basically all that has gone down here is they have re graded him so know he is there blue belt instead of Chris's-is this right? thats the question.

i believe no but thats opinion not fact.

Diab Soule

basically all that has gone down here is they have re graded him so know he is there blue belt instead of Chris's

Do you really believe a coach of Saulo Ribeiro's stature would do that just to 'claim' a guy who - no disrespect intended - is basically an anonymous blue belt? After all, as far as I can tell Chris is already a member of Saulo's academy, right? Maybe I'm naive, but I'd prefer to assume Saulo genuinely felt Chris was a white belt rather than imagine some plot to 'steal' him. After all, from my understanding it's not as though he had a long training relationship with Chris Brennan either.

da-bres

cowzerp wrote: »

I'm certainly not a hater and have said more than i wanted to on here, just because people think he was already a blue does not make them haters, if he had medalled at blue i'd be the 1st on here saying well done.



He was already deemed a blue belt by Chris Brennan, basically all that has gone down here is they have re graded him so know he is there blue belt instead of Chris's-is this right? thats the question.

i believe no but thats opinion not fact.

Hey paul I would like to add a response to this,

This post is me speculating

No disrespect to Next Generation, dave jones or Chris Brennan, there system is awesome. But the NG ranks awarded by chris brennan cant be applicable under the IBJJF as they do not incorporate the gi, which means it is not a BJJ rank.

Now we can sing that Chris Brennan is a black belt but can he award BJJ grades to those who have never trained in the gi?? is that allowed?

So if it isnt a BJJ grade and is a NG rank, then there is no issue.

The IBJJF states that if you are a blue belt in the gi, then you are also a blue belt in no gi competitions, It however does not state the opposite.

cowzerp

Diab Soule wrote: »

Do you really believe a coach of Saulo Ribeiro's stature would do that just to 'claim' a guy who - no disrespect intended - is basically an anonymous blue belt? After all, as far as I can tell Chris is already a member of Saulo's academy, right? Maybe I'm naive, but I'd prefer to assume Saulo genuinely felt Chris was a white belt rather than imagine some plot to 'steal' him. After all, from my understanding it's not as though he had a long training relationship with Chris Brennan either.

well he has to justify putting him in the white belt categorary and he is clearly not a white and this proves that he does not feel he is either

Do you think that last week he felt he was not a blue and this week suddenly he has advanced?! rhetorical question.

da-bres

Before Chris left to America, from training with him every day, I thought he was a white belt very close to blue belt. just saying.. getting close to purple no gi, for sure, but its a different game.

As far as saulos decisions, Im pretty sure a 7 time world champ knows what he's doing regarding BJJ

cowzerp

da-bres wrote: »

Before Chris left to America, from training with him every day, I thought he was a white belt very close to blue belt. just saying..

As far as saulos decisions, Im pretty sure a 7 time world champ knows what he's doing regarding BJJ

Thats fair enough if you felt that, but then were back to the Next generation grades problem-Is it not recognised anymore because it is looking worthless now and i think thats a shame after all Dave's hard work..

Clarification is still needed on that for future reference.

Diab Soule

cowzerp wrote: »

well he has to justify putting him in the white belt categorary and he is clearly not a white and this proves that he does not feel he is either

Do you think that last week he felt he was not a blue and this week suddenly he has advanced?! rhetorical question.

In practical terms - from before the Mundials to now - probably not, but awarding belts after major competitions seems like pretty standard practise.

Besides, if he's been training with Saulo full time for a while, don't you think he might have improved? I assume Saulo decided he was a white belt early on.

da-bres

cowzerp wrote: »

Thats fair enough if you felt that, but then were back to the Next generation grades problem-Is it not recognised anymore because it is looking worthless now and i think thats a shame after all Dave's hard work..

Clarification is still needed on that for future reference.

This is where its confusing paul. It is something that only Chris Brennan and Dave can clarify. Maybe the IBJJF could shed some light on it aswell. Im just saying what could be the case.

Sid_Justice

da-bres wrote: »

No disrespect to Next Generation, dave jones or Chris Brennan, there system is awesome. But the NG ranks awarded by chris brennan cant be applicable under the IBJJF

Can they not?

as they do not incorporate the gi, which means it is not a BJJ rank.

Says who?

da-bres wrote: »

Now we can sing that Chris Brennan is a black belt but can he award BJJ grades to those who have never trained in the gi?? is that allowed?

Yes it is.

As far as I know all the purple belts in the UK under Chris compete as Purple belts in gi comps.

da-bres

@ sid justice

da-bres wrote: »

Im just saying what could be the case.

i'm just adding in points of note, and what i make sense of the information that is at hand.

I dont have any of the answers.

da-bres

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Can they not?



Says who?


Yes it is.

As far as I know all the purple belts in the UK under Chris compete as Purple belts in gi comps.

First two 'can they not'/ 'says who'

Can they not: my understanding is they dont incorporate the gi.

Says who: I am going by what is regularly stated, you cant grade in BJJ without wearing the gi.

As for yes it is? Says who??

These once again are replys on what I understand of the info.. I.e speculation

Dave, c. brennan, and IBJJF would have a clear cut view on things

Chris Brennan

I didnt read all of this but I read to enough to know that if you were promoted to a belt by me than thats what belt you are. I dont care if Eddie ****ing Bravo, Saulo, Royce, or Helio (rip) tell you that your not at the level. If that's the case I say get your ass in the gym and get back where you were becuause everyone who has trained with me or anyone under me knows I'm a black belt and I dont hand out belts easy.

Especially 2 YEARS after being promoted. To go back and compete at White belt 2 years later is not cool.

I'm sure people will jump my **** for this post but as always I'm being honest about how I feel.