Is the oppression of women overstated?

CDfm

premierlass wrote: »

Yes, but he was also a journalist and not a bad historian, so he knew his facts. As cited by Connolly in 1915, these were the wages of Messrs Williams and Woods, a Dublin firm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/connolly/1915/09/women.htm):

But that is one company. So is that a big enough sample.

And he was in the recruiting members business and had a particular political agenda to push.

Gay Byrnes brother was one of the first catholic white collar workers in Guinnesses. A local department store in the local town had "no catholics need apply signs" in the 1960's.

I accept that there were differences in pay and conditions and my mother as a teacher was treated worse than her less qualified male colleagues.

And families are/were social & economic units.

The thread title mentions "oppression". Your definition of that seems a little arbitary to me. It would generally be accepted that civil rights movements agititate on the basis of legal and social as well as economic inequalities.

I don't think I gave a definition.

I suggested looking at the facts first mostly from an Irish perspective if we can.

Nelly Bly's exposé of lunatic asylums in 1887 is very interesting. She feigned insanity to find out how easy it would be to be committed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nellie_Bly - extract taken from a biography).



Elaine Showalter's The Female Malady argues that madness was feminised, that psychiatric treatment was primarily applied to women, and that women exemplified madness in culture until the 1970s

.

Did that happen in Ireland ???

Rape targets the vulnerable because they are vulnerable. They have no defence. Systemised war rape is recognised as a war crime. Female rape during war is less frequently prosecuted than other war crimes because of its gender-specific nature.

Did this happen in Ireland.

There were quite a few female civilian casualties in 1916.

premierlass

CDfm wrote: »

I don't think I gave a definition.

I didn't say you did.

CDfm

premierlass wrote: »

I didn't say you did.

Thats grand.

It would be great to see whats what in the history.

Edit -What you might see as oppression others might see as cooperation for mutual benefit. Marxist analysts may take a different view. Thats an ideology but its better to look at facts first IMO as the whole ideology thing has been done lots of times elsewhere.

Connolly may have seen it as part of "politics" and a potential route to political power.

The upper classes when framing the legislative and other practices may have done so to preserve their rule.

And if looking at something like the Married Womens Property Acts 1870 & 1882 which may really have effected the upper classes we should take into account the legal positions of unmarried females and money and property held by married women outside the act. Ordinary people did not own their houses and renting was the norm.

How were the wives of overseas soldiers or sailors paid etc.

CDfm

Have I killed the thread:eek:

Nhead

CDfm wrote: »

Have I killed the thread:eek:

No, not at all. However, I have noticed that online discussions about women in history get less attention than other topics!

CDfm

Nhead wrote: »

No, not at all. However, I have noticed that online discussions about women in history get less attention than other topics!

Its a pity - like how can you have 2 seperate histories male & female.

I find Hannah Sheehy-Skeffingtons actions post the 1916 rising to be very important -almost decisive - and I wonder why historians fritter away their time speculating about Pearses sexuality when you have her.

Mata Hari gets all the column inches but this lady was the real deal.

Who would play her in a Hollywood movie.

Nhead

CDfm wrote: »

Its a pity - like how can you have 2 seperate histories male & female.

I find Frances Sheehy-Skeffingtons actions post the 1916 rising to be very important -almost decisive - and I wonder why historians fritter away their time speculating about Pearses sexuality when you have her.

Mata Hari gets all the column inches but this lady was the real deal.

Who would play her in a Hollywood movie.

Hannah was a very interesting character and acted with great dignity after her husband was brutally murdered in 1916. CDfm, I was thinking that one possible source to consider with regards the working conditions of both men and women are the census abstracts pre-1901. I have the paper versions so I must root them out.

CDfm

Nhead wrote: »

Hannah was a very interesting character and acted with great dignity after her husband was brutally murdered in 1916. CDfm,

That she did.

Her campaign for an enquiry was awesome and pivotal to changing public opinion to the Rising.

I was thinking that one possible source to consider with regards the working conditions of both men and women are the census abstracts pre-1901. I have the paper versions so I must root them out.

They would be great.

Its not about proving a point but looking at the facts.

CDfm

Here is a bit of Patrick Kavangh history that shows how the family was the economic unit.

1904: b. Patrick Joseph Kavanagh, 21 Oct., in Mucker townland, Parish of Inniskeen, Co. Monaghan [vars.: 22 Oct. in Iniskeen baptismal book, and 23 in civil register]; fourth child of James [Cavanagh], a small farmer and cobbler with sixteen acres, and Bridget (née Quinn), James being the illeg. son of Peter Kevany of Castletown, Co. Sligo, ed. Royal Albert Agricultural School, Glasnevin; appt. principal of Kednaminsha & Rocksavage Nat. School; met Nancy Callan of Inniskeen, a young widow then acting as servant to the McEnteggart household where he lodged; dismissed for cohabitating with Nancy, Kavanagh’s grandmother, 1855; their son James brought up by Nancy and female siblings when Peter was forced to leave after dismissal by the Education Commissioners on information from W. S. Trench in his capacity as landlord [agent]; James made sufficient money as a cobbler to rebuilt the family house when Patrick was five; PK ed. at Kednaminsha Nat. School up to 1916 [aetat. 12]; influenced by Canon Bernard Maguire, PP; began writing privately; his earliest poems were published by Dundalk Democrat and Weekly Independent, 1928; three poems were printed by George Russell in The Irish Statesman during 1929-30; his poem “The Ploughman” was incl. in Best Poems of 1930, by ed. Thomas Moult (ed. at Jonathan Cape);

Now his background was.

Sr. Una Agnew, The Mystical Imagination of Patrick Kavanagh (Dublin: Columba Press 1998), gives an account of the disgrace of Kavanagh's grandfather Peter Kevany, Principal of Kednaminsha Nat. School, Inniskeen, ending: ‘The full tragedy of the story [of Peter Kevany and Nancy Callan] becomes evident from official records at the National Archives in Dublin. It was Stuart [sic] Trench, then manager of the Bath Estate schools, who compounded the injury further by reporting his teacher to the Commissioners of Education. [...; 144] On 4 April 1855, the Commissioners received a letter from Stuart Trench stating that he had suspended a teacher for “immorality” as “he has been for some time living with a widow who is with child by him and not married to him.” Trench enclosed a letter from Kevany requesting forgiveness and promising amendment. Three weeks later came the dreaded ultimatum that Kevany would be “immediately removed from the school [and that] they would not again recognise him as a National School teacher. This action ensured Kevany's public disgrace. His salary was suspended forthwith, and a notice served that the school would be closed until further notice. / Kevany was forced to leave the area though he continued to plead his case with the Commissioners [...]’. (pp.144-45.)

Even during the famine a farm of 15 to 20 acres of reasonable land was needed to make a loving. The kavanaghs had 16 acres of stony land and his father also worked as a cobbler.

Patrick Kavanagh's grandfather, called Patrick Keaveney was a teacher in Kednaminsha school. It was one of the six National Schools in the parish at the time. He was a native of Sligo and lodged in McEnteggarts, a house near the school which is still standing. He became friendly with Nancy Callan who was a maid in the house. When she became pregnant he was expelled from the school and Nancy (who was later to have twins, one of whom died), wouldn't marry him. The parish priest, Fr. Kinlon, because of this "scandal" baptised the surviving child as James Kavanagh. Meanwhile his father moved to Tullamore where Trench, the local landlord of Inniskeen got him a job as Governor of the workhouse in Tullamore. At that time primary school teachers needed a degree in agriculture to teach. This was very useful as there was a farm attached to the workhouse. Later his produce won many prizes and the workhouse improved while he was there.


Originally Nancy Callan was married to Pat McHugh from Inniskeen who died after twelve months. Even though she was married to him, Nancy still kept the name Callan. She had a son by him also called Pat. When he grew up he went to England where he became a Member of the Board of Guardians of Sunderland as well as being the organiser of the British Labour Party. Nancy never married again. Patrick Keaveney wanted to support his son, James. He would send a ten shilling note every so often. At that time the post wasn't very trustworthy so he would tear the note in two and send them separately. Later on he used to arrange meetings with James in Dublin. He also married and had more children.


James learned the shoemaking trade and lived at his mother's house in Mucker. It is believed that he was very good to her and looked after her well. He didn't go to Kednaminsha school but went to Inniskeen school (the village school) instead, because McCaffrey, a cousin of his taught there. He went to Campbells of Drumcatton to learn the shoemaking trade. While he was there he was being picked on by bigger lads as he was small and light. William Woods who was born around 1880 and was a big man of 6' 4", saved James many times from the bigger boys and so they became good friends. James told William about a farm that was for sale beside them in Mucker and so he bought it and they remained friends down through the years.


In 1896 James' mother died and by coincidence this was also the year in which Patrick Keaveney died. The following year James married Bridget Quinn of Tullerain, Killany, Co Louth. They had ten children in the following order: Annie, Mary, Bridget ("Sissie"), Patrick (born on 21st October 1904), Lucy, Theresa, Josie, James (died shortly after birth), Cecilia and Peter. They had great debates among themselves about anything they could think of. The Kavanaghs were intelligent people who had photographic memories. Though they were poor they got the daily paper and knew all that was going on. They got books from Paddy Brennan, a neighbour of theirs who got them from the Maguires, his relations in America. As the children grew up they moved off, mainly into the nursing profession and by the money they sent home helped to rear the remaining members of the family. Peter Kavanagh is the only member of the family who is alive today.

http://www.redbrick.dcu.ie/~scruff/kavanagh.htm

Life was hard all around.

But in one history you have the landlords agent Trench getting a disgraced James Keavney a job in Tullamore and another saying he fired him.

So a gendered approach to history is partisan and as with Hannah Skeffington we loose important facts and that her important role in 1916 and independence gets glossed over.

jonniebgood1

CDfm wrote: »

Be a contrary fecker as the OP is vague.

I would disagree with you to an extent on the establishment seeing sexual morality as a non-issue particularly with regards the Victorian era for which I have some sources (and indeed beyond). There is a disease prevention imperative for sure but men also spread sexual diseases but were they sanctioned to the same degree as those in the laundries??

Lets see - the sex sources should spice the thread up.
.

I know the OP probably also meant Ireland but there is an interesting piece from a 1920's book by Martin Dale- Under the covers. When he says present day he is referring to 1920:

The present administration in France and other
countries where state regulation prevails, is perhaps
even more terrible than the old. In olden times women
were tortured, branded, and even murdered if they were
no longer needed. In the present day, the law steps in,
a private police force (the morals police) is given power
to arrest any girl or woman it chooses to
"suspect" of Prostitution. These men may take her to a police
station, subject her to a surgical examination by a
doctor, and, if she refuses to submit to it, imprison her ;
if she is found diseased, she is confined in a Lock
Hospital until the doctor sees fit to release her (and in
such a hospital it is even not unusual to inoculate her
with Syphilis for the good of her health or that of others,
or of science). In any case she is registered, and her
name, whether she is guilty or innocent, remains on the
books, and serves as a ready means of blackmail to any
police officer who may have a private grudge against her.

He goes futher into accounts of how women of the streets were treated contemptuously by the French police in particular. The purpose of the French police was not to prevent the prostitution in any way. The main purpose was in making the trade safe for the male clients.

CDfm

I have posted this earlier cos in 1850 Ireland was a peasant nation and its people were the poorest in Europe

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]Introduction[/SIZE][/FONT]
Beginning in 1845 and lasting for six years, the potato famine killed over a million men, women and children in Ireland and caused another million to flee the country.
Ireland in the mid-1800s was an agricultural nation, populated by eight million persons who were among the poorest people in the Western World. Only about a quarter of the population could read and write. Life expectancy was short, just 40 years for men. The Irish married quite young, girls at 16, boys at 17 or 18, and tended to have large families, although infant mortality was also quite high.
A British survey in 1835 found half of the rural families in Ireland living in single-room, windowless mud cabins that didn't have chimneys. The people lived in small communal clusters, known as clachans, spread out among the beautiful countryside. Up to a dozen persons lived inside a cabin, sleeping in straw on the bare ground, sharing the place with the family's pig and chickens. In some cases, mud cabin occupants were actually the dispossessed descendants of Irish estate owners. It was not uncommon for a beggar in Ireland to mention that he was in fact the descendant of an ancient Irish king.
Most of the Irish countryside was owned by an English and Anglo-Irish hereditary ruling class. Many were absentee landlords that set foot on their properties once or twice a year, if at all. Mainly Protestant, they held titles to enormous tracts of land long ago confiscated from native Irish Catholics by British conquerors such as Oliver Cromwell. The landlords often utilized local agents to actually manage their estates while living lavishly in London or in Europe off the rents paid by Catholics for land their ancestors had once owned.
Throughout Ireland, Protestants known as middlemen rented large amounts of land on the various estates then sub-divided the land into smaller holdings which they rented to poor Catholic farmers. The middleman system began in the 1700s and became a major source of misery as they kept sub-dividing estates into smaller and smaller parcels while increasing the rent every year in a practice known as rack-renting.
The average tenant farmer lived at a subsistence level on less than ten acres. These Catholic farmers were usually considered tenants-at-will and could be evicted on short notice at the whim of the landlord, his agent, or middleman. By law, any improvements they made, such as building a stone house, became the property of the landlord. Thus there was never any incentive to upgrade their living conditions.
The tenant farmers often allowed landless laborers, known as cottiers, to live on their farms. The cottiers performed daily chores and helped bring in the annual harvest as payment of rent. In return, they were allowed to build a small cabin and keep their own potato garden to feed their families. Other landless laborers rented small fertilized potato plots from farmers as conacre, with a portion of their potato harvest given up as payment of rent. Poor Irish laborers, more than anyone, became totally dependent on the potato for their existence. They also lived in a state of permanent insecurity with the possibility always looming they might be thrown off their plot.
The most fertile farmland was found in the north and east of Ireland. The more heavily populated south and west featured large wet areas (bog) and rocky soil. Mountains and bogs cover about a third of Ireland. By the mid-1800s, the density of Irish living on cultivated land was about 700 people per square mile, among the highest rate in Europe.


http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/famine/introduction.htm

So when we look at Irish society in the 19th century our society was dirt poor in a Maslows Hierarchy of needs basis -eastern european serfs had it better.

The analysis you might use in a post famine society might be different.

jonniebgood1

CDfm wrote: »

I have posted this earlier cos in 1850 Ireland was a peasant nation and its people were the poorest in Europe

So when we look at Irish society in the 19th century our society was dirt poor in a Maslows Hierarchy of needs basis -eastern european serfs had it better.

The analysis you might use in a post famine society might be different.

And what are the main significant contrasts between the development of eastern europe and Ireland in those 160 years (sorry I know thats taking us away from the subject). Or are the differences significant. Were women in eastern europe treated the same as women in Ireland in 1850. As someone posted earlier it was common in Ireland for a 40-50 year old man to marry a 20 year old woman during alot of that period. The census figures show this in 1901/ 1911. Was this just in Ireland or everywhere?

CDfm

I think the OP has sort of abandoned this thread. My granny's favorite insult was "paysan" (peasant) and thats what us Irish were.

How do you measure these things ?

I imagine some of the ideas were copied from the ruling classes .What groups became the new ruling classes ?

You also had the growth in womens organisations -like nuns etc -how autonomous were they ?

Need for education & skills for Ireland & emigration ?

Thats a good idea - marriage and conditions - Ireland was very basic in 1900 and 10 or 20% of the population lived in mud huts. Wasage difference common or was it just noticeable ?

What "rules" were borrowed from the departing British having inherited their civil service ?

Wage rates and conditions for public service jobs was a big thing in a changing society. Hanna Sheehy-Skeffington campaigned on this as she worked as a teacher and had no pension etc . Economically could we afford them ?

1920 to 1950 - Economic Timewarp -was it still a peasant society - we got aid from the Marshall Plan even though we were not in WWII -General Marshall saw Ireland as a devastated country.

Irish Hospital Sweepstake for instance provided our hospitals as opposed to tax revenue - we woz poor.

So I think we need to appraise conditions before talking ideologies as I think ideologically the country may not have been sophisticated.

Nhead

The problem with the OP not clarifying his/her point is the area is way too broad to look at that in its self prohibits us looking at the sources. The problem with looking at whether or not any groups oppression is under or overstated is that very few historical sources will state in black and white 'we have oppressed this group more than that group'. A very wise lecturer of mine once told us (and I paraphrase) 'primary sources can often tell us nothing. They don't magically yield up the answers we want'. Having said all that nonsense. CDfm raises some good topics.

CDfm

Nhead wrote: »

CDfm you have used the word ideology/ideologies in relation to this thread what exactly do you mean? (Just curious)

What I mean is that we should look at the factual history first before arriving at conclusions.

The OP seems to imply that women were oppressed by men only. It may also have een other women or institutions headed by women.

(Recently, we had a Patrick Pearse thread. Really famous 1916 leader. But when I looked at what historians were saying about him and checked up on-line about the Pearse family lots of the basic facts were wrong.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056192193

Major kudos for me having a member of Pearses extended family comment possitively on the stuff I found)

So checking the facts is a must.

In this type of thread our risk is that we will get bogged down in emotive rants rather than having a factual discussion.

So what I am saying is that by building up the facts we get an accurate picture and we avoid the typical stuff that derail or close a thread.

Nhead

CDfm wrote: »

What I mean is that we should look at the factual history first before arriving at conclusions.

The OP seems to imply that women were oppressed by men only. It may also have een other women or institutions headed by women.

(Recently, we had a Patrick Pearse thread. Really famous 1916 leader. But when I looked at what historians were saying about him and checked up on-line about the Pearse family lots of the basic facts were wrong.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056192193

Major kudos for me having a member of Pearses extended family comment possitively on the stuff I found)

So checking the facts is a must.

In this type of thread our risk is that we will get bogged down in emotive rants rather than having a factual discussion.

So what I am saying is that by building up the facts we get an accurate picture and we avoid the typical stuff that derail or close a thread.

Yes but too many facts and we end up like Mr.Gradgrind:) One problem I have with the internet is that if a topic isn't that popular it can be very difficult to find anything of substance to link it to. For instance I wanted to highlight the contribution Alice Oldham made to Irish history but there is very little online that I can use to back it up!!

CDfm

Nhead wrote: »

Yes but too many facts and we end up like Mr.Gradgrind:)

ok -but pay rates for teachers is easy as are the differences in terms of employment between women and men.

. For instance I wanted to highlight the contribution Alice Oldham made to Irish history but there is very little online that I can use to back it up!!

I feel your pain and had the same problem getting info on Sister Anthony at the Battle of Shilloh.

Nhead

Speaking of Hannah Sheehy Skeffington and education rights for female teachers they wanted to change the way girls were educated in national schools. The comissioners of national education in Ireland produced a book for the use of female schools in 1846 which stated:
'bear in mind that knowledge is not to elevate her above her station, or to excuse her for the discharge of its most trifling duties. It is to correct vanity and repress pretension. It is to teach her to know her place and her functions and to make her content with the one and willing to fufill the other. It is to render her more useful, more humble and more happy.'

This was sent to all schools regardless of class but in many ways middle-class women had less freedom (in a societal sense) as they were expected to marry and not to work whereas working class women could at least earn a wage. Thomas Jordan's The Census of Ireland 1821-1911 general reports and aspects is an invaluable source for looking at how class was delinated during this time. There was the traditional Upper, middle and lower class but within each there were sub-categories. There was 'the professional class, domestic class, commercial class, agricultural class,industrial class and the indefinite and non-productive class'. What struck me when studying the 1901 and 1911 census online is the number of women employed as servants.

CDfm

Here is some detail on Workhouses -now is it just me but does this look similar to the Magdalene Launderies

The Magdelene Launderies are being discussed elsewhere and I am struck by the similarities between them and and the 19th century workhouses.

Life in the Workhouse, 1839-45

Admission to the local Workhouse was based on very strict criteria. Priority went to the old and/or infirm, and destitute children who were unable to support themselves. The Guardians were also given discretion to admit the destitute poor.
People entered the Workhouse for a variety of reasons - unemployment and the famine were the main reasons for admittance in the 19th Century, however the Workhouse also provided a safe-haven for unmarried pregnant girls, married women whose husbands had deserted them, and Orphaned Children whose relatives were too old or too poor to care for them.
The Workhouse was a last resort for most people, who would take on any work, rather than face the gruelling Workhouse regime. The Guardians also applied the strictest of Work regimes to ensure that only the desperately poor would seek admission.
Upon Admission what few personal effects and clothing the inmates came in with, were washed and put into storage, and Inmates were given a Standard Issue Workhouse Uniform to wear.
Inmates were then categorized into male/female, able-bodied, old/infirm, infants/children. All Classes of Inmates were separated from each other, and communication between Classes was strictly forbidden. In the case of Families having been admitted, this meant that husbands and wives were banned from seeing each other, and mothers were banned from seeing their children (although this latter prohibition was later relaxed so that mothers were able to book appointments to see their children on a weekly basis).
Living Accomodation

Workhouse Living Accomodation was cold, damp and cramped – Sleeping Dormitories were situated in the attics, and consisted of Male and Female Dormitories, and Children's Dormitories. The Inmates were generally kept apart both day and night, with separate yards and duties. Beds consisted of straw mattresses placed on the floor, with old rags for sheeting. Beds were no more than 2 feet apart Disease was commonplace as no proper toilet facilities were in place. Baths were meant to be taken once a week, and Bathing Registers were kept for this purpose - the reality was often very different.
Inmates' Duties

Once admitted, Inmates were required to work a minimum 11 hour day. Inmates were put to work on a variety of jobs. Some Workhouses established Local Trade Workshops for eg. Weaving/Sewing/Knitting/Cobbling/Tailoring/Carpentry etc. Able-bodied Female Inmates would either be given Sewing Duties or Kitchen Duties (preparing and cooking Workhouse Meals, and Washing Up) Cleaning of the Workhouse, Nursery duties, or Laundry Duties.
Able-bodied Male Inmates worked much harder, quarrying and smashing stones, building workhouse boundary walls, chopping wood, and grinding corn, tending the Workhouse Vegetable Gardens/Farms, digging cess pools, burying the dead, stoking the Workhouse fires, etc.
The Daily Routine for Adult Inmates was as follows:

Inmates were awoken by the sound of the Workhouse Bell at 6am each day. The Workhouse Master then took a "Roll-Call" at 6.30am just before breakfast.
Breakfast usually consisted of a bowl of the cheapest porridge/grain with buttermilk (which was cheaper than normal milk).
Work commenced at 7am and inmates were required to work through to 12 noon when they were allowed between 1/2 and one hour for lunch.
Lunch usually consisted of a pint of Buttermilk and a piece of black bread.
Inmates would continue working from 1pm until 6pm.
Dinner was served between 6.30-7pm and often consisted of potatoes and Indian Meal. As you may have gathered, Buttermilk was given with everything. Soup was also given during the Winter months. Fruit may have only been given at Christmas/Easter, and was usually a gift from one of the Key Residents of the Local Town (eg. the Doctor's Wife). Meat was bought, but was usually kept for the Workhouse Master, Matron and his key staff.
Lights out at 8pm. Children were sent to the Workhouse School, and those children over the age of 12 were usually "Boarded-Out" with local Members of the Community. Usually Local Residents would write to the Workhouse Master asking for a child to be boarded out with them. Children were often boarded out with a local tradesman's family, where they would work as apprentices, and attend the Local School.
Workhouse Punishments

Punishments for any breach of Workhouse Rules were very harsh. An inmate who refused to carry out their Work Duties would be given 24 lashes plus no Dinner for one week. An inmate who used abusive language would be put into solitary confinement plus no Dinner for One Week, or more. Female Inmates who breached rules could often be forced to break stones for One Week, and so forth. After all, Workhouse Life was not meant to be pleasant.
Leaving the Workhouse

Whilst there were no restrictions on inmates leaving the Workhouse, the old inmates, with no immediate family able to take care of them, remained in the Workhouse until their death. For many families who entered the Workhouse, their stay was often on a temporary basis, and usually ended when the father (breadwinner) found work.

http://www.irishfamilyresearch.co.uk/EssentialResource8.htm



And the Magdelene Launderies

"Those places were the Irish gulags for women. When you went inside their doors you left behind your dignity, identity and humanity. We were locked up, had no outside contacts and got no wages, although we worked 10 hours a day, six days a week, 52 weeks a year. What else is that but slavery? And to think that they were doing all this in the name of a loving God! I used to tell God I hated him."
"Those places" were the Magdalene laundries: convents throughout Ireland that contained huge washing workhouses run by nuns, which were originally set up in the early 19th century as a refuge for prostitutes. A hundred years later they had become prisons to which Irish Catholic girls and young women "in moral danger" could be sent by their parish priest - the term covered anyone from single mothers (who had often become pregnant as a result of rape or incest) to girls who were simply high-spirited or "bold". Eventually the laundries would spread to England.
Many never saw their families or the outside world again but lived their entire lives behind walls until they were buried in unmarked communal graves. They, in their tens of thousands, are "the disappeared" of Ireland.
Peter Mullan's new film, The Magdalene Sisters, has for the first time provided a detailed account of the brutal regime suffered by the women working in the laundries. Mary Norris was one of them. Taken away from her "unsuitable" mother (who was having a relationship with a local farmer) when she was 12, Norris later spent two years at a laundry run by the Good Shepherd Order, in Cork, which closed down only in 1994 (the last Magdalene laundry, in Dublin, closed in 1996).
"Plenty of people will think the events in the film have been exaggerated to make it more dramatic," Norris says. "But I tell you, the reality of those places was a thousand times worse. There's a scene in which a girl is crying in the dormitory and another goes over to her bed to comfort her. That could never have happened. You weren't allowed any private conversation. Again, in the film the girls get glimpses of the outside world and even ordinary people who don't live in the laundries. In reality, we were totally incarcerated. You could see nothing except sky.




[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
"Many survivors refuse to talk about what they went through, but I've never been ashamed to have been in one of those places. The shame is not mine; the church should be ashamed. They say now they're sorry - what they mean is, sorry they were found out."

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/04/04/1048962932185.html

Here is a link to the asylums thread

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056235296

CDfm

I came accross this in TLL

zoegh wrote: »

Dunno if people are interested, but I ran a project that collected oral histories of people with intellectual disabilities across Ireland. Most of the storytellers are women, and they have some interesting stories about every day life, but also about living in a matriarchal environment (women with id living and being looked after by Nuns, etc.) back in the institutions when things were even grimmer than they are here now (if anyone saw last nights Prime Time, then you'll know what I mean!)

Anyway, here's the link to the archive: " A Story to Tell"

CDfm

I came across the term "unprovided for girls " in the context of emigration -which meant unmarried not working etc

Another great link to Maria Luddy on the treatment of "penitents " with both catholic and protestant histories given

http://books.google.ie/books?id=1Nacaku-V_QC&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq=unprovided+for+girls+ireland&source=bl&ots=4uZcOifywX&sig=4vxmof8WJoP0HXZaFgFcrnI9Urg&hl=en&ei=soP8TeLdOISo8QPb0ZmWBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&sqi=2&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false

Nhead

CDfm wrote: »

I came across the term "unprovided for girls " in the context of emigration -which meant unmarried not working etc

Another great link to Maria Luddy on the treatment of "penitents " with both catholic and protestant histories given

http://books.google.ie/books?id=1Nacaku-V_QC&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq=unprovided+for+girls+ireland&source=bl&ots=4uZcOifywX&sig=4vxmof8WJoP0HXZaFgFcrnI9Urg&hl=en&ei=soP8TeLdOISo8QPb0ZmWBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&sqi=2&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false

Luddy is a magnificant historian and this book is well worth a read for anyone interested in areas often overlooked.

Nhead

I think the workhouse and the laundries are similar and that is why it is so important to look at the social policy that created them and the ideologies that sustained them. The workhouses stopped but the laundries did not (the last laundry closed in 1996) the interesting question is why? Yes, women didn't have state aid but either did the poor in general what can't be overlooked is that people were denied their basic freedoms by being locked up, no economic argument can cover over that. The state abdicated its responsibilty in running places like schools and hospitals (hence the situation were about 92% of our schools are under religious patronage).

CDfm

The profile of single mothers even these days and the numbers living with family as per the department of social welfare

TRENDS AND PROFILE OF LONE PARENTS (CHAPTER 2)

2. Recent years have seen considerable changes in family structures and formation. This chapter outlines these changes using a number of statistical sources including the Labour Force Surveys, Census of Population information and a survey of 1,000 OFP awards undertaken as part of this Review. The main trends are

• the majority of lone parent families (more than 4 in 5) are headed by women
• unmarried lone parents tend to be younger and have fewer children than those who are separated
• lone parents have low levels of educational attainment (almost 47% have only Primary level education)
• 53.7% of lone parents with at least one child under 15 years were participating in the labour force in 1997 (ILO classification)
• lone parent families face a greater risk of poverty than most other families
• the majority of lone parents depend on social welfare as their main or only source of income. Maintenance payments are not a significant source of financial support for lone parents
• overall approximately 66% of OFP recipients live with their parents; 27% live alone.

SOCIAL WELFARE PROVISION FOR LONE PARENTS IN IRELAND (CHAPTER 3)

3. Up until the 1970s the only group of lone parent families catered for under the social welfare system were widows, with contributory and non-contributory schemes introduced in 1935. Contingencies such as desertion and unmarried motherhood were not catered for until 1970 and 1973 respectively when the Deserted Wife's Allowance and Unmarried Mother's Allowance were introduced. A contributory-based scheme for deserted wives was also introduced in 1973. The schemes were a response to the increasing incidence of marriage breakdown and unmarried motherhood which had emerged in the late 1960s and were, to a great extent, modelled on the widow's pension schemes. The scheme reflected the ethos at the time which held that women with children worked full time in the home.
4. In 1990 the Lone Parent's Allowance (LPA) was introduced. The new scheme was, for the first time, open to both men and women; lone parents who had separated from their spouses no longer had to prove desertion in order to qualify for a payment. Lone parents with dependent children who had been in receipt of Deserted Wife's Allowance, Widow's Non Contributory Pension and Prisoner's Wife's Allowance were transferred to the new scheme. People in receipt of contributory payments remained on those payments.
5. The LPA was still based to a great extent on the idea of lone parents working fulltime in the home. However, a significant change in this regard took place in 1994 when an earnings disregard of £30 per week was introduced into the means test.
6. The OFP introduced in 1997 is largely based on the LPA. The main difference is the inclusion of a standard earnings disregard of £115.38 per week intended to encompass work expenses, including childcare. The scheme also aims to ensure that lone parents can more easily assess the implications of returning to work/training. On the introduction of the new scheme the deserted wife's schemes were closed to new applicants with those receiving payments retaining their entitlements as long as they continue to satisfy the conditions of these schemes.
7. The OFP has two main objectives

• The relief of hardship where a lone parent has not secured adequate or any maintenance from his/her spouse or the other parent of the child.
• To support and encourage lone parents to consider employment as an alternative to long term welfare dependency while at the same time supporting them to remain in the home if that is their wish.

In addition, it aims to ensure that

• Lone parents are treated in a fair and equitable manner without regard to gender or the circumstances in which they became lone parents.
• Lone parents can easily assess the implications of taking up employment or training.
• Where possible the cost of any support given to lone parents from the other parent of the child/ren is recovered.

8. Annual increases in lone parent expenditure over the last 10 years range from 11% to 22%. Overall expenditure on the OFP was £343 million in 1999 and it is expected to reach £385 million in 2000, equivalent to 7% of total social welfare expenditure.

And here is a comparison with other countries

SOCIAL WELFARE PROVISION FOR LONE PARENTS IN OTHER COUNTRIES (CHAPTER 4)

9. The growth in the number of lone parents is a worldwide phenomenon and social welfare regimes have responded to the needs of this group in different ways depending on how these needs are viewed. Some regimes see the need for support as temporary, i.e. until the person can return to employment, while others are prepared to support lone parents working full-time in the home while at the same time encouraging them to seek employment as a means of improving theirs and their children's standard of living. This chapter sets out the social welfare provisions for lone parents in a number of countries to indicate the different approaches.
10. The UK, Australia and New Zealand support lone parents to stay at home, if that is their wish, while at the same time actively encouraging them to consider employment/training as a way of improving their situation. Both the UK and Australia have very active programmes, New Deal and JET respectively, designed to help lone parents to join the labour market while in New Zealand a lone parent is required to start actively planning his/her future and be available for part-time work from the time the youngest child is seven years of age.
11. In Sweden it is assumed that everyone aims to be in employment and lone parents are no exception. There is no income support scheme aimed specifically at lone parents and while there is a very high percentage of lone parents at work (80%) almost 70% still receive some State support. (It is important to note that much of this support could be in the form of subsidised childcare, paid parental leave etc. and therefore it is not directly comparable with the position in Ireland.)
12. In France lone parents can receive basic income support with a special scheme of support (Allocation de Parent Isole) applying during pregnancy, for the first year after separation and/or until the youngest child is 3 years of age. In the Netherlands income support will be paid until the youngest child reaches 5 years of age. In the USA special lone parent schemes have been abolished with lone parents now eligible to apply for welfare support in the same way as other families and subject to the same conditions, e.g. "workfare", time limits on claiming etc.
13. It is generally agreed that taking up paid employment is the most effective way of lifting a lone parent and his/her children out of poverty. However, the manner in which this is achieved can vary from country to country. In some cases it is assumed that lone parents will work as soon as possible and social welfare supports reflect this attitude. Some, like the USA require a claimant to work or train as a condition of receiving benefits. Others will encourage and assist lone parents to consider employment as an option to improve their circumstances, while at the same time recognising their right to choose to work in the home full-time.

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Policy/CorporatePublications/Finance/Pages/opfpreview.aspx

Nhead

And even after the lone parents allowence was introduced we still had the laundries and still the stigmas. What accounts for it is what I am curious about. Why I went back to Victorian times was we can see some of the efforts made with trying to help the poor and we also see some of the values and mores that come from that time.In tandem these is always other factors such as politics, economics, religious and cultural. I think that too often we look for that one reason that will answer all our questions but other posts have shown there are multifaceted reasons for any group being oppressed.

CDfm

I dont know that there was a social policy that created it.

Just to be a bit of a devils advocate here.

Economically, Ireland was very poor and a peasant society at the time of the famine with massive emigration afterwards and the welfare system was the workhouse/poorhouse. It was on this system the Magdelene Launderies were based.

Post 1800 to 2000 an estimated 9 to 10 million Irish emigrated.

In the period pre independence Ireland had just started to benefit from British government spending and before that more went out than went in. Independence was an economic disaster for Ireland.

The 20's were followed by the 30's and WWII and Ireland was so poor the Americans gave the Country Marshall Aid.

There was some growth in the 50's etc and 60's .


In 1967 Donough O'Malley the Minister for Education stood up in the Dail after a good lunch and promised free secondary school for all.

The state did not have the money either and had to tie up with the religious orders to do it on the cheap.

Money sent home from abroad was called "invisable imports" in the economic figures.

Pre 1973 you did not have a welfare state as such in Ireland and the housing stock was poor. Most families did not have the accomadation or the money to support an unmarried daughter with a child.

In other words it was the families that put them out on the street.

We had girls stay with us as "housekeepers " and friends of my parents did the same. And it was only as an adult I knew why as at least one was a victims of incest . My cousins farmers in west cork did the same.

Men who fathered children were ostracised and emigrated for the most part.

Corporal punishment at home and at school was the norm.


Around 1973 a new tax PRSI was introduced where you had an employers payroll tax of 10 % and social security taxes of 5% of wages (approx) intended for workers who became unemployed and which got used to pay benefits. This coincided with the oil crisis and recession which caused many businesses to close.

The alternative for most people was emigration to the UK.

So the only alternative for "unprovided girls" was the workhouses continued to be used.

I dont think I am saying anything controvercial even Marxist Economists still describe our economic situation as "primative capitalism".

Where the idea comes from that we are or were a wealthy sophisticated nation does not seem to be borne out by the facts.

Noel Purcell the actor used to say about Dublin City in the Rare Auld Times that "the rare auld times are now".

Nhead

You make some excellent points but then were women oppressed because they were at an economic disadvantage i.e less wages, having to leave the civil service, having to leave teaching if they got pregnant etc? (just to explain I meant state policy as in when we were part of the UK the state policy was to open workhouses, laundries etc and then as you mentioned our states policy was to let the church deal with education etc.) Just to put my cards on the table I don't believe that the oppression of women in history is overstated. From my study of history and dealing with sources the things I found out about women I had never heard about. For the vast majority of my education I only heard about a hand full of women (and I went to school in the 1980s and 1990s) in history. I never knew for example when the first Irish women went to college, I was never told the the majority of people that emigrated were women and hand on heart I never heard about a Magdelene Laundry till I was in my late teens/early twenties (as I have never been a practising RC). I know from studying the history of education that women had to fight to be included in the Intermediate Education Bill, they had to fight to be allowed to obtain a degree and even then they weren't allowed to attend lectures in an actual college. It is a simple fact that men didn't have to fight for these provisions. Now having said that, that doesn't mean that there were no men that didn't have a dog rough life or experience similar/the same conditions as women.

CDfm

Nhead wrote: »

You make some excellent points but then were women oppressed because they were at an economic disadvantage i.e less wages, having to leave the civil service, having to leave teaching if they got pregnant etc? ............

When did these changes occur ?

We inherited the workhouse/asylum system from the British and this is how things were done. As a state we also took on their civil servants to run the show.

Pre workhouse/asylum I have read that people dug holes in their mud huts/cabins to contain/restrain the mentally ill. Bedlam was a significant improvement.

Even today we still have 25% of the adult population functionally illitererate and the concepts that get raised are very middle class ones which society was not.

Extent of literacy difficulties

According to the last international survey, one in four or 25% of Irish adults have literacy difficulties. This compares with 3% in Sweden and 5% in Germany. Most adults with literacy difficulties can read something but find it hard to understand official forms or deal with modern technology. Some will have left school confident about their numeracy and reading skills but find that changes in their workplace and everyday life make their skills inadequate. The literacy skills demanded by society are changing all the time.

What is the impact of having a literacy difficulty?

Having a literacy difficulty often means you are not able to understand health and safety information, how Government organisations work, go for promotion, complete a driver theory exam or vote. Equally, parents who have literacy difficulties may be unable to support their own children with their reading and writing. Currently in Ireland up to 30% of children from disadvantaged areas leave primary school with literacy difficulties.

I wonder what literacy rates were like in the past as even today they dont compare well with Sweden & Germany.

So back to the peasant concept "the power of the limited good" (commodity) there was not enough to go around.

It is a simple fact that men didn't have to fight for these provisions. Now having said that, that doesn't mean that there were no men that didn't have a dog rough life or experience similar/the same conditions as women.

Thanks , I was just trying to list out what my impressions were from the material and what were mens conditions like.

Jeez we may find out that we Irish were not a very likeable and ignorant race. Should we risk it ????

jonniebgood1

CDfm wrote: »

Even today we still have 25% of the adult population functionally illitererate and the concepts that get raised are very middle class ones which society was not.

I wonder what literacy rates were like in the past as even today they dont compare well with Sweden & Germany.

The reasons for this are legacy issues combined with a class problem. I would imagine that in the same way that a high percentage of prison inmates are from poorer communities that the literacy rates in these areas are similarly low. The leagacy issues are supported in this paper which says

the principal reason behind the relatively low
level of literacy in the Republic of Ireland (RoI) is the presence of a cohort effect
— a consequence of the older age group receiving less schooling than the younger
age group due to differences in educational policy thus lowering the average
literacy level of the whole sample. http://www.esr.ie/vol30_3/1_Denny.pdf

Prior to 1966 individuals were obliged to
pay fees to attend secondary school. This acted as a barrier to participation for
many at secondary level. Consequently, the older age cohort has a lower level of
educational attainment, which is reflected in a lower level of literacy proficiency.
However, the participation rates in education have increased dramatically since
the 1970s, which produces a more favourable distribution of literacy scores in
Ireland.

CDfm

So are you saying that at 25% today that previously it was much worse ? That would mean that their ideas were less sophisticated and these would be reflected in the decision makers too.

In what way do you define class historically in Ireland ?

Patrick Pearse's Dad was a tradesman but their lifestyle was middle class -if not upper middle class a son at Trinity and another at art school in London and on the continent.

I know lots of people who left school with the primary certificate pre 1970 and had trades, became shopkeepers, and a few Senior Garda.