Roman Catholic Subforum/Moderation

hinault

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=333

Several Roman Catholic (RC) members of the Christianity Forum have requested the setting up of a RC subforum and/or the appointment of a RC moderator.

It has become apparent over the past few weeks and months that there is demand for this subforum which would allow RC members to discuss issues important to them.

Today on the Christianity forum several of us tried to log a request on the Request Forum to create such a subforum. We did so on the basis that one of the moderators on the Christianity forum directed us to do so.
The Request Forum is not accessible and when we decided to discuss this issue further on the Christianity forum, 8 threads created today were locked by the moderators (see the link above)

Wholesale bans were administered by the moderators - the same moderators who claim that they're powerless to advocate for the creation of a RC subforum but who are prepared to ban reasonable posters trying to discuss the matter.

Morag

This is a very old hobby horse.

People disrupting the Christianity forum with this debate are going to get told that it is off topic to the forum and to knock it on the head, if they fail to do so then they get banned,
for posting in an off topic manner and ignoring moderator instruction.

If you think there is the need for it then lobby for it, argue for it convince the admins to make it happen. You can't use the christianity forum to organise but there is nothing stopping one of ye from starting a socail group and using that.

MrPudding

Hmm, it seems unfair that people got banned just for starting threads. Normally that would not happen unless the poster has been warned again and again and again not to do something but they ignored the warning and continued to do it anyway, despite the warning. Oh. Wait...

MrP

hinault

Sharrow wrote: »

This is a very old hobby horse.

People disrupting the Christianity forum with this debate are going to get told that it is off topic to the forum and to knock it on the head, if they fail to do so then they get banned,
for posting in an off topic manner and ignoring moderator instruction.

If you think there is the need for it then lobby for it, argue for it convince the admins to make it happen. You can't use the christianity forum to organise but there is nothing stopping one of ye from starting a socail group and using that.

Perhaps it is an old hobby horse.

It is absurd that a much smaller religious demographic is granted their own individual subforum.
But a larger religious demographic (RC) cannot have their own subforum?

hinault

MrPudding wrote: »

Hmm, it seems unfair that people got banned just for starting threads. Normally that would not happen unless the poster has been warned again and again and again not to do something but they ignored the warning and continued to do it anyway, despite the warning. Oh. Wait...

MrP

You left out the bit where the Christianity moderator told the poster in question to register a subforum request, on the Forum Request category.:rolleyes:

The Forum Request category which has been dormant since late 2010.

Morag

hinault wrote: »

Perhaps it is an old hobby horse.

It is so much so that I am sure the mods are sick of the crusades for the forum or subforum which always seem to be set about in a manner to get most peoples' backs up by disregarding the rules of the site and disrespecting the mods who are kind enough to mod it.

It's not that having the discussion is the issue, it is the way that certain parties went about trying to have the discussion, in the wrong place to begin with and then threw their toys out of the pram when they were told it was off topic and they were being disruptive.

hinault wrote: »

It is absurd that a much smaller religious demographic is granted their own individual subforum.

Like what? The Paganism forum?
Well the paganism forum was the very first religious/spirituality forum on the site and due to the lack of drama eventually other's were added.

When the paganism forum was created it was stipulated that the presence of any forum was not a good enough argument to get any other forums created.

hinault wrote: »

But a larger religious demographic (RC) cannot have their own subforum?

While Ireland may be said to be a country with a large RC demographic (depending on who's figures you are using) that doens't mean that is reflected here on the site. It only seems to be over the last 2 years that there have been more and more Roman Catholics on the site who are actively posting about it.

Are there any figures on what the break down of denominations of those who post and lurk in the forum?


If the christianity forum was getting snowed under in good threads about Roman Catholicism then there maybe some argument for a subforum but that hasn't happened.

Morag

hinault wrote: »

You left out the bit where the Christianity moderator told the poster in question to register a subforum request, on the Forum Request category.:rolleyes:

The Forum Request category which has been dormant since late 2010.

That is the correct procedure in line with the site's policies.
If you have a question about those policies or proceedures then I suggest you contact the admins or the community manger about them.

hinault

Sharrow wrote: »

It is so much so that I am sure the mods are sick of the crusades for the forum or subforum which always seem to be set about in a manner to get most peoples' backs up by disregarding the rules of the site and disrespecting the mods who are kind enough to mod it.

I think the posters in question have been highly respectful of the moderators concerned.

I have corresponded with the moderators over in the Christianity forum and attempted to argue the case politely with them after their zeal in shutting down threads overtook them earlier today.

Sharrow wrote: »

It's not that having the discussion is the issue, it is the way that certain parties went about trying to have the discussion, in the wrong place to begin with and then threw their toys out of the pram when they were told it was off topic and they were being disruptive.

I think sending the posters off on a wild goose chase to the Forum Request category and then finding that category closed, only frustrated the situation in fairness.

If one thread had been left open on the Christianity forum to discuss this matter in an adult way, the situation would have been contained.

Sharrow wrote: »

Like what? The Paganism forum?
Well the paganism forum was the very first religious/spirituality forum on the site and due to the lack of drama eventually other's were added.

When the paganism forum was created it was stipulated that the presence of any forum was not a good enough argument to get any other forums created.

While Ireland may be said to be a country with a large RC demographic (depending on who's figures you are using) that doens't mean that is reflected here on the site. It only seems to be over the last 2 years that there have been more and more Roman Catholics on the site who are actively posting about it.

Are there any figures on what the break down of denominations of those who post and lurk in the forum?

If the christianity forum was getting snowed under in good threads about Roman Catholicism then there maybe some argument for a subforum but that hasn't happened.

I was thinking of a denomination forum for Buddhists in fact.

That demographic nationally is minute - why should that tiny demographic have their own forum when a larger demographic (RC) not receive due recognition also?
It is not unreasonable to ask this.

And with respect to threads being created on the Christianity forum, there have been numerous threads created by RC members in that forum discussing RC matters.
The fact that some of these threads have since been derailed bolsters the case for a RC subforum I think.

hinault

Sharrow wrote: »

That is the correct procedure in line with the site's policies.
If you have a question about those policies or proceedures then I suggest you contact the admins or the community manger about them.

This is a circular argument, sharrow.

I asked the moderators what approach should be taken.
They suggested that we approach Boards management in relation to the creation of a subforum for RC's, using the Request Forum.
The Request Forum has been inaccessible since 2010.

How else are we to bring this matter to adjudication?
I've PM'd the site owner about the creation of a subforum.

I've already asked the Christianity mods to support our application for the subforum (and they're refused to do so, I might add).
Don't you think it curious that the moderators refuse to even support the creation of a RC subforum?

Orion

hinault wrote: »

It is absurd that a much smaller religious demographic is granted their own individual subforum.
But a larger religious demographic (RC) cannot have their own subforum?

What much smaller demographic?
Christianity has its own forum - why is there a need for a separate forum for one particular sect within Christianity? Islam has different sects and only one forum. Same for Paganism and Christianity. Atheism and Agnosticism get a joint one. Where's the problem?

Morag

hinault wrote: »

I think the posters in question have been highly respectful of the moderators concerned.

I have corresponded with the moderators over in the Christianity forum and attempted to argue the case politely with them after their zeal in shutting down threads overtook them earlier today.

It looked more to me that a certain cluster of posters refused to follow mod instruction and went on a thread starting spree.

hinault wrote: »

I think sending the posters off on a wild goose chase to the Forum Request category and then finding that category closed, only frustrated the situation in fairness.

Is it still closed? I was told at the weekend it wasn't and there certainly is no impediment to starting a thread in there and a proposal for a forum was dealt with and a decision made on the 25th of May 2011 so that points to it being open and active.

hinault wrote: »

If one thread had been left open on the Christianity forum to discuss this matter in an adult way, the situation would have been contained.

It's off topic and descends into rabble rousing and decrying the mods with statements which frankly undermine them. It is not the right place for that discussion but you don't seem to want to accept that, those who got banned didn't either.

hinault wrote: »

I was thinking of a denomination forum for Buddhists in fact.

That demographic nationally is minute - why should that tiny demographic have their own forum when a larger demographic (RC) not receive due recognition also?
It is not unreasonable to ask this.

The forum was created as there were enough active posters who wanted a place to have discussion on that heading. It's that simple.

hinault wrote: »

And with respect to threads being created on the Christianity forum, there have been numerous threads created by RC members in that forum discussing RC matters.
The fact that some of these threads have since been derailed bolsters the case for a RC subforum I think.

Derailment happens, it's a right pain when it does, I hate to see a intresting dicussion get lost in crap posts, have posts been reported when this happens, it does help but sometimes it's hard to get a thread back on track and it's a loosing battle.

I don't think having a subforum would solve this, as posters can post where they please on the site, what would stop threads being derailed in a subforum?

hinault

Orion wrote: »

What much smaller demographic?
Christianity has its own forum - why is there a need for a separate forum for one particular sect within Christianity? Islam has different sects and only one forum. Same for Paganism and Christianity. Atheism and Agnosticism get a joint one. Where's the problem?

Buddhism.

El Weirdo

Let me get this straight.

You want a RC forum so a mod of Christianity sends you over to the Forum Requests forum to start a thread.

You attempt to do so but obviously this is not possible as there is a moratorium on requesting new fora until further notice (as per the announcement at the top of the Forum Requests page).

You then decide to bombard the Christianity forum with threads requesting a RC forum despite being asked not to by the mods.

Well played lads. Really fucking adult of ye.

Are you actually complaining about bans being handed out?

Orion

Buddhism is a belief system. Christianity is another belief system. They are both being treated equally. I fail to see the issue. As I said other belief systems have an umbrella forum also without having to be broken down into individual sects.

Morag

hinault wrote: »

I asked the moderators what approach should be taken.
They suggested that we approach Boards management in relation to the creation of a subforum for RC's, using the Request Forum.
The Request Forum has been inaccessible since 2010.

The mods directed people correctly it's not their fault that those higher up seemed to have dropped the ball.
I suggest you get on to the community manager about this situation.
You can pm him Dav or email him Dav@boards.ie

hinault wrote: »

I've already asked the Christianity mods to support our application for the subforum (and they're refused to do so, I might add).
Don't you think it curious that the moderators refuse to even support the creation of a RC subforum?

No not at all, if they don't see the need for it or how it might work why would they support it.

So how do you see the sub forum (which the current Christianity mods would be also be mods of) functioning?

hinault

Sharrow wrote: »

It looked more to me that a certain cluster of posters refused to follow mod instruction and went on a thread starting spree.

It was more a case of overzealous moderators attempting to stamp out all talk of a RC subforum actually.

Sharrow wrote: »

Is it still closed? I was told at the weekend it wasn't and there certainly is no impediment to starting a thread in there and a proposal for a forum was dealt with and a decision made on the 25th of May 2011 so that points to it being open and active.

Yep it was closed as of earlier today.
I twice attempted to create a thread requesting the opening of a subforum.
Several other posters did the same as well and failed.

Sharrow wrote: »

It's off topic and descends into rabble rousing and decrying the mods with statements which frankly undermine them. It is not the right place for that discussion but you don't seem to want to accept that, those who got banned didn't either.

Clearly you failed to read my earlier reply to you. I told you that having been told to proceed one way, when that avenue was closed and we attempted to highlight the closure, the moderators went in to overdrive on the Forum to stamp out all discussion of the fact about the subforum and the fact that the Request Forum could not be accessed.

If the Request Forum is closed - what other route do you suggest?

Sharrow wrote: »

The forum was created as there were enough active posters who wanted a place to have discussion on that heading. It's that simple.

And there are a number of active RC members who want to have a subforum.
And they also want to have the opportunity to discuss having a subforum in light of the fact that the Request forum is closed.

Sharrow wrote: »

Derailment happens, it's a right pain when it does, I hate to see a intresting dicussion get lost in crap posts, have posts been reported when this happens, it does help but sometimes it's hard to get a thread back on track and it's a loosing battle.

I don't think having a subforum would solve this, as posters can post where they please on the site, what would stop threads being derailed in a subforum?

Perhaps it wouldn't prevent derailment but the request and the reasons for the creation for a subforum exists and is reasonable.

I don't expect you to agree with this contention.

hinault

Orion wrote: »

Buddhism is a belief system. Christianity is another belief system. They are both being treated equally. I fail to see the issue. As I said other belief systems have an umbrella forum also without having to be broken down into individual sects.

It's not a belief system as far as I'm concerned.

I'm RC.
There are a number of RC's here.
We would like our own distinct forum.

hinault

El Weirdo wrote: »

Let me get this straight.

You want a RC forum so a mod of Christianity sends you over to the Forum Requests forum to start a thread.

You attempt to do so but obviously this is not possible as there is a moratorium on requesting new fora until further notice (as per the announcement at the top of the Forum Requests page).

You then decide to bombard the Christianity forum with threads requesting a RC forum despite being asked not to by the mods.

Well played lads. Really fucking adult of ye.

Are you actually complaining about bans being handed out?

We were told to redirect our request to the Request Forum by the moderators.
Whether they knew the Request Forum was closed is open to question.

When our individual attempts to access the Request Forum failed, each thread that attempted to discuss this matter was closed by the mods and the posters were banned.

Morag

hinault wrote: »

If the Request Forum is closed - what other route do you suggest?

As I have already suggested get on to the Community Manager for the site,
they are a member of staff who's remit this sort of stuff falls under.
Dav@boards.ie

hinault wrote: »

And there are a number of active RC members who want to have a subforum.
And they also want to have the opportunity to discuss having a subforum in light of the fact that the Request forum is closed.

I have already made two suggestions, have it here or start up a socail group to discuss it, prep good points to present and as a rally point, set up sigs to highlight it. These are all the traditional ways to get enough interest and momentum to get a forum or subforum created.

hinault wrote: »

Perhaps it wouldn't prevent derailment but the request and the reasons for the creation for a subforum exists and is reasonable.

I don't expect you to agree with this contention.

You've stated that having a sub forum for RC dicussion would prevent threads from being derailed, now it will or it won't which is it?
What difference will ring fencing those threads make?
What additions to the basic site rules and the Christianity forum rules would the RC sub forum have ?
How would the sub forum function nested with in the christianity forum and Religion/spiritually section?

These are pretty basic questions, surely you must have tougth that far ahead?

Orim

Since it's an older church the Assyrian Church should clearly get a sub forum first.

The forum has been rejected more then once. Have you considered making a group for Catholics?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/group.php?

You could talk all ye want and avoid the tyrannical cruelty of PDN and Fanny Cradock.

Orion

hinault wrote: »

It's not a belief system as far as I'm concerned.

I'm RC.
There are a number of RC's here.
We would like our own distinct forum.

I'm a Pastafarian - I want one too. FSP will make it so with his noodly appendages. :rolleyes:

Of course Christianity is a belief system. There are three main sects - RC, Protestant and Orthodox. Of those the latter two have further sub-divisions. But they are all christian and fall under that umbrella.

If you can't get on with your fellow Christians here then there's always the Landover Baptist Church forums where the worthwhile worship. :pac:

hinault

Sharrow wrote: »

You've stated that having a sub forum for RC dicussion would prevent threads from being derailed, now it will or it won't which is it?
What difference will ring fencing those threads make?
What additions to the basic site rules and the Christianity forum rules would the RC sub forum have ?
How would the sub forum function nested with in the christianity forum and Religion/spiritually section?

These are pretty basic questions, surely you must have tougth that far ahead?

I think a subforum would help deter derailment. Much like access to the soccer forum is restricted and threads appear to stay on topic, I think a subforum for RC's could operate to the same standard.

Controlled access to a RC subforum, allied to a dedicated group of RC's discussing matters therein would help to ensure minimal derailment.

can we count on your support for this concept?:rolleyes:

hinault

Orion wrote: »

I'm a Pastafarian - I want one too. FSP will make it so with his noodly appendages. :rolleyes:

Of course Christianity is a belief system. There are three main sects - RC, Protestant and Orthodox. Of those the latter two have further sub-divisions. But they are all christian and fall under that umbrella.

If you can't get on with your fellow Christians here then there's always the Landover Baptist Church forums where the worthwhile worship. :pac:

I get along fine with my fellow Christians but let that not obscure the fact that their systems of belief are different to a RC system of belief and we have a number of RC's who want to have their own subforum to discuss RC matters as opposed to matters prefaced as being Christianity.

El Weirdo

hinault wrote: »

We were told to redirect our request to the Request Forum by the moderators.
Whether they knew the Request Forum was closed is open to question.

When our individual attempts to access the Request Forum failed, each thread that attempted to discuss this matter was closed by the mods and the posters were banned.

That's no reason to bombard the forum with threads like children.

The first post I can see was made at 7.41am by Keylem and was edited by PDN at 7.57am explaining why it was closed.

There was no need for the other 8 threads. Any bans were completely justified.

Morag

hinault wrote: »

I think a subforum would help deter derailment. Much like access to the soccer forum is restricted and threads appear to stay on topic, I think a subforum for RC's could operate to the same standard.

The soccer forum has a team of mods who crack down hard and fast on those who break the rules there. The christianity more are a lot more lenient then the soccer mods.

I don't know if it's possible to have a sub forum of a forum set up the same was as the soccer forum, that's a question the site developers will be able to answer.

hinault wrote: »

Controlled access to a RC subforum, allied to a dedicated group of RC's discussing matters therein would help to ensure minimal derailment.

What would be the criteria for access to such a controlled sub forum?
What would be the additions to the basic site rules in a charter for such a forum?

hinault wrote: »

can we count on your support for this concept?:rolleyes:

No need to get snarky with me, I'm interested enough to ask questions to try and help clarify what it is you want and the best arguments to make for it.

If the concept has merit and there are enough RC posters to support it then I would also support it not that I think you'd want my support as your technically not ment to associate with those who are excommunicated.

Orion

So you are basically seeking a private forum where only RCs can interact? There are plenty of those already. Where's the advantage to boards having such a restricted access forum? tbh a forum where everyone agrees sounds almost as boring as mass to me.

Insect Overlord

hinault wrote: »

Much like access to the soccer forum is restricted and threads appear to stay on topic, I think a subforum for RC's could operate to the same standard.

You. Cannot. Be serious.

randylonghorn

This was asked and answered just a couple of months ago.

The OP is aware of this as s/he was involved in the thread.

Perhaps this contributed to the Christianity mods exhibiting less than saintly patience with what appears to be a small group of posters who think that if they stamp their foot often enough they will get their own way?

Morag

But it has been a year from then and the demographics of the site is always changing as new people join.

LoLth

a few things here:

1. yes the forum requests forum has been dormant for a long time but , and I know this sounds like convenient coincidence, action is being taken to get it moving again. What has to be done has already been discussed and decided.

2. The moderator was correct in directing you to the new forum request section. I think the mods have been informed of the upcoming re-activation but I'm not sure if they were given a date. perhaps the mod took the notice of what will be happening as a sign that the forum was open again already.

3. 8 threads have been closed? would you not get the hint after the first two? Bannings for opening 8 threads on a subject that has already been deemed not suitable for discussion in that forum... damn right there should be. And I would have done the exact same. You cant deliberately push a mod into taking an action and then complain about the action that was taken.

4. The Religion category is, as far as I can tell (mod or cmod confirmation would be nice ) deliberately set up to subdivide into broad belief systems rather than individual religious tenets. eg: Christianity and Muslim as opposed to RC and Protestant or Sunni and Shi'a . This is mainly for tidiness and to ensure traffic isnt so filtered that some sub-fora dont get any visitors at all. It is also there to stop people from demanding a sub-forum for every single variant on a theme you can imagine (latter day saints, evangelical churches, mormons, born again christians, etc etc etc etc etc etc ad nauseaum) - though it would be cool to have an Amish only subforum... easiest modding job ever!

5. I am sure that the mods and cmods are well aware that you *want* a sub-forum for roman catholics. however, *wanting* does not equal being entitled and, as has been pointed out already, this request has been made, discussed and rejected previously (a quick search on the forum request forum will turn up those previous requests and the arguments made for and against). Are there any NEW arguments for a Roman Catholic subforum other than those that start with "several of us want....."

Dades

I remember this happened before.

We gave the People's Front of Judea their own subforum in Judaism and the next thing we were bombarded with requests from the Judean People's Front looking for their own subforum. :pac:

But seriously, would you envisage a RC forum to be restricted to RC's only? I can see the Powers taking a dim view of this (unverifiable) notion, and would suggest to you it not be part of your 'proposal'.